UKC

Evening all 

My wife and I are currently looking at purchasing a decent size motorhome for extended stays in Europe with a view to climbing across a variety of areas.

Do those that own larger vehicles ever come across issues with parking up at crags due to the size of their vehichles? Is it even an issue? We intend to pay for sites as much as possible during the evening but don't want to buy something we are unable to then use to access crag car parks. I would rather purchase something smaller if it's an issue people have had.

Kind regards

Liam

In reply to Liam Taylor:

It's fast become quite an issue yes. A massive vehicle takes up more than the space of a regular sized car/van. A smaller vehicle will use less fuel too. Buy something smaller.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

Is that in reference to it being an issue for you to park your larger motorhome or get parked because of people with larger motorhomes?

Fuel consumption isn't an issue, we will be living in it so trying to find a balance between convenience and space.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

A panel van conversion may be the compromise between living space and mobility/parking.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

It‘s often an issue for other climbers. In the Frankenjura available parking places for many crags are often no more than improvised laybys on country roads, where parking for 3-4 cars is tolerated. We‘ve not infrequently turned up to find one motorhome blocking the whole thing, and have had to head back to the next village a couple  of km away. Not an issue however if you pick crags which for whatever reason are situated close to a large car park (where you usually have to pay).

In reply to Liam Taylor:

I drive small van (transit sized) van and there is no question that at times I miss out on parking spots that the Golf would have fitted in.

Regarding taking up three places a lot of it is pure selfishness, leaving a table and chairs at the side and deliberately parking half a car width from the kerb is just plain rude. 

In reply to Liam Taylor:

Thanks for your responses of first hand experiences.

As I mentioned we will be paying to stay on sites as I couldn't agree more, setting up camp in public spaces especially for long stays is unacceptable.

My main point was how often is it an issue to find somewhere to park close to the crag. May be better for me and others to leave the motorhome on site and cycle in from there where space is an issue.

Many thanks

Liam

In reply to Liam Taylor:

Drop me a DM if you like, we lived in our motorhome for 2 years whilst doing a renovation property.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

Sorry I wasn't clear, I don't own a motorhome/camper van. So these big vehicles do sometimes and increasingly make it difficult for me (and plenty others) to park. But it is the same for those with a big vehicle, in fact it's a worse situation as more space is needed to park it as Jenny C has mentioned.

Consider also the ease of driving to / from crags on sometimes narrow lanes. A smaller vehicle will be way easier.

Why isn't fuel consumption an issue? I thought the idea is we are to burn less fossil fuel.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

Cheers Mark. I remember you from my time in Ambleside, hope you're well.

Thanks for clearing that up, access was my main concern and obviously causing issues for others.

Without getting into an eco debate I currently drive approximately 30,000 miles a year for work alone. Fortunately future plans will eliminate  these entirely so I can sleep easy regardless of our vehicle size in the future. My carbon footprint will be greatly reduced.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

Ah sounds good.

Yes all well here thanks. Still in Ambleside, it's even busier these days. Hope all is well with you too

In reply to Liam Taylor:

We have a vw crafter camper which is 6m long, we've never had any parking issues with regards to the length of the van but have occasionally had height restrictions be an issue, and I think that's only really been at Font, obviously it isn't as big as a full on motorhome can be, but we see many of all sizes, and they don't seem to have issues, I will say some of the small roads would be challenging in a coach built motorhome. 

In reply to Liam Taylor:

I spent most of 2015 touring the UK and Europe (mostly France and Spain) when I left work in my ‘FatBoy’. It was a low profile Joint motorhome on the standard Ducato van base. 

Overall I found it slow, uneconomical (fuel costs) and quite worryingly cumbersome a lot of the time due to its size and weight. Small towns, villages and narrow roads and country lanes became quite a stressful experience and I was very aware of its size and slow speed. Once or twice I remember getting into embarrassing situations due to my poor unreliable sat nav and silly decisions. 

Getting close to the crags was also often a real nightmare and I found myself choosing crags with bigger car parks and easier access, often scoping the roads around the area on my road bike first - a win/win from a fitness point of view. 

The comparative luxury it offered once ‘on sight’ made it almost worth the stress and effort. Almost. The shower, kitchen, heating, double bed, and room to socialise were very welcome. 

Never had any issues with reliability at all, the Fiat was a joy. Solar is a must have imo. 

All that considered I now have a smaller van, a Dispatch, and have just returned to Scotland from my second winter in a row in Greece followed by road tripping my way back through climbing venues throughout the EU, returning home via the via Baltica to Finland, and then through Germany for the Hull ferry. 

During the Greece period we found rental accommodation and I used the van as our daily driver. It worked super well as the vans foot print is smaller than many a modern SUV!! 

Its a balancing act deciding what is best for your own circumstances but for me smaller is better for the most part and would work well if basing yourself in sites with facilities you don’t have on board. 

Another thing to consider is security. Some of the larger climbing venues are plagued with vandalism and break-ins and this caused me to avoid using the van in Leonidio this winter, in fact I may never use the van as a base there again, its just too risky. I also find the amount of big vans in some venues very off-putting, and in Leonidio for instance, they take up so much space in the parking spots that you really need a plan B for the day. Its so busy there actually that it is causing problems locally, but thats for another thread. 

The smaller van is less of a target (in as far as I had less stuff in it and isn't so obviously lived in), its way way easier to park, takes up a lot less room, is far more economical (I get 50+mpg from the Citroen), far easier to drive, keeps up with the traffic flow and is super manoeuvrable compared to a custom built motorhome. I’d say it’s almost ‘fun’ to drive actually. 

There are pros and cons to both obviously, but bigger isn't always better - from a climbing point of view anyway. I think your idea of basing yourself in a campsite and cycling to the crag is sound apart from costs and biking distances that may be involved, but then I’m tight and lazy so it might work well for you

Have fun anyway, it’s a super choice and I love my time travelling in the van. Enjoy. 

In reply to Liam Taylor:

You quite often see big motorhomes towing small cars, SMART cars for example. I presume this is exactly to get around your envisioned issue with parking on day trips?

In reply to mike reed:

That sounds interesting - did you climb in Finland or in the Baltic states on the way up?

In reply to TobyA:

Friend of mine used to carry a small motorbike on the back of his van for use on narrow mountain roads, visiting towns & villages with narrow streets, etc. Worked quite well in the summer, not so good for ski touring trips.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

'Without getting into an eco debate I currently drive approximately 30,000 miles a year for work alone. Fortunately future plans will eliminate  these entirely so I can sleep easy regardless of our vehicle size in the future. My carbon footprint will be greatly reduced.'

Um ... I'm not sure that Greta would agree with you and it seems a strange argument to me too.

'Because I used to be REALLY bad I can now be just a little less bad with a clear conscience.'

In reply to Liam Taylor:

A large van will obviously be a much nicer place to live in than a smaller van and you’ll be able to carry more stuff.

However, you’ll find the larger size a major inconvenience when it comes to everything else.

Our 6.4 metre motorhome is luxurious compared to the VW transporter sized vans we used to have but it actually restricts our climbing because it’s a pain in the butt to find somewhere to park.

Cycling to the crag sounds like an attractive proposition until you weigh your climbing gear and have to cycle with a heavy pack or buy some panniers and then find you can’t always cycle to the very bottom of the crag - you end up worrying about having your bike nicked or carrying it and your gear up to the crag. And carrying a bouldering pad - that could be fun.

Small motorcycles are wonderful until you consider that you also have to store the necessary gear - helmets, gloves, jackets, etc in your van. Plus the extra cost of insuring another vehicle abroad. Many vans don’t have the payload to carry a small motorcycle although many owners ignore this potential issue.

Even our LWB T4 was a pain to park in many car parks - it was fine width wise but the extra length especially if you have a bike rack caused a problem.

Buy a small van.

In reply to TobyA:

Hey Toby. 
Yes indeed. In fact I’ve done quite a bit in Finland (possibly repeated one or two of yours in the process), and actually cleaned and climbed some great blocs/routes just east of Porvoo. 

Last year we climbed in Arco, Slovenia/Croatia on the Istria peninsula. Then headed quickly north. This year we focussed on Slovenia plus a day trip to Kompanj, then decided on the Polish Jura for a change as we enjoyed Poland both times we’ve driven through before. Not sure I’d do that again though. It was that or the Frankenjura so I think Germany next time. 

I was going to look at bouldering in Estonia but you may have noticed it’s a long cold winter this year!!! 

In reply to Liam Taylor:

Not sure why you get so many thumbs down for asking a sensible question.

My parents have a pretty large van and they find it difficult getting into some small villages. 

One option to consider is getting a scooter or ebikes that you can store in the van.

This has the added benefit of allowing you to leave the van set up in living mode rather than having to clear everything away and button stuff down every morning.

One thing to consider before settling on a van and a plan to get bikes is the weight limits and distribution of the van. Lots of professional conversions and coach built vans are very close to their 3.5t limit even when empty.

In reply to gethin_allen:

Because mountain roads and roads to crags are typically small, windy and hilly. Taking a large vehicle along them, let alone taking 2 or more parking spaces when you get there, could easily be construed as anti-social and selfish.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

Just a thought, but if you mostly plan to camp on campsites could you just get a smaller van and couple it with a driveaway awning?

That way you've got more space at "basecamp" than with just a small van and can leave stuff there during the day so you don't have to pack everything up each morning and leave it unattended in the van during the day, plus you get all the benefits of a smaller van such as easier parking and better fuel economy.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

So that's your answer to the op's question, much better to say that than hit the thumbs down.

Is asking a question now something for someone to have a go at someone for?

In reply to pec:

Or, better still, just get a small tent and camp in camp sites. The amount of space the camping gear takes up is minimal, even in a small fuel-efficient car. For me, sleeping in vehicles is not compatible with getting into the great outdoors. 

In reply to gethin_allen:

Not sure what your point is tbh.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

Many thanks for all the replys and suggestions

Smaller van and awning is definitely a great solution and compromise. I suppose the problem we have is the fact we are going to be living in for a while so wanting the space and comfort of a larger vehicle.

As I suspected it sounds like accessing crags and parking could be an issue in certain areas so with a larger van we may just have to accept that those areas arent suitable.

Once again many thanks

Liam

In reply to gethin_allen:

I'm not sure either but it's UKC at the end of the day so to be expected 

Maybe I shouldn't have asked, been a selfish obnoxious prick and just parked up wherever I wanted and inconvenienced everyone else without giving it a second thought

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Presumably that it is better to give a considered reply than mindlessly hit the dislike button.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

Having made my first van trip to Spain for the whole of January, I am totally converted to this being the best way to sport climb in Europe. No campsite costs and inconveniences (very few campsites open anywhere near the climbing anyway). Park for several days at a time at a crag before moving on a rest and resupply day. Really relaxing just getting up in a beautiful place and going climbing without having to drive anywhere. By avoiding honeypot crags, it always felt uncrowded and secure with no issues or guilt about anything. Basically idyllic. But, and it is a big but, our vans were small. Many of the rough approach tracks and parking spots would have been unsuitable for a motorhome and it would have felt very restricting and kind of missing the point having to use campsites. Unless you really feel you can't do without the mod cons of a big vehicle or the facilities of a campsite, it really wouldn't make any sense to me.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

the point being that saying that for example large vans are a pain for people in this places is a lot more informative for the person asking the question than just hitting the thumbs down. 

In reply to TobyA:

This makes me question why?

Just get a caravan.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

I guess this is very area specific, for instance if you plan to spend a lot of time in Chamonix you’d be fine, Val d’Orco not so. Siurana, Ceuse would be easily doable but the sport crags around the Écrins would be a ball ache. I guess if you have a big van you’ll be limited but there will be plenty of places to fill your time with a bit of research and if you do find yourself in a place where you’re not sure turn around and head to a different area. 

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

That’s always my thought if you want something bigger than a Transit/T5 size. Since getting a T5 we’ve spent most time on sites as I feel a bit conspicuous overnighting in the sort of places I want to go. 

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

I take it a step further and just stay in a B&B. Cheaper, more comfortable and just more convenient.

When I want to be sleeping close to nature I camp. I don't want this all the time.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

Just had a trip to Font and only the Franchard Isatis parking is height restricted (2.1m). We've got an Peugeot Boxer L3H2, 2.7m tall and 6m long. We just had a bit longer of a walk.

We usually have more issues in shop/public car parks than at crags. It's a usually 1m longer than most car park spaces and can be tricky to manoeuvre.

We're definitely thankful for the extra living space it gives with the toddler on rainy days though.

In reply to gethin_allen:

Clearly actual responses give vastly more information than the votes and the forums wouldn't function if the votes were the extent of everybody's input. But I generally look at the votes as an extra source of information rather than an alternative. Somebody who only voted rather than bothering to write a full reply probably still wouldn't have bothered to reply if the votes weren't available, so nothing's been lost and we gain some limited insight into the broader balance of opinion.

In this thread, several people have bothered posting about the anti-social impact of large vans and the balance of voting shows us that the concern is clearly more widespread than just those few people.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

I've got a 6m (5.99) van which is only just over 1m longer than my car. Basically it takes up no more space than my car with a bike rack on the back. The van will still annoy the anti-van brigade, it is a van after all.

How about a compromise on space? Buy a smaller van with a huge awning tent that you can leave on site. That way you will have a bigger living space than most motorhomes.

In reply to John Stainforth:

Or better, better still, get one of those funky 'on-car' tents and its a win all round as you take almost zero space other than the vehicle

https://www.roofracks.co.uk/approach-l-pelican-grey/p/7964?gad_source=1&...

Pricey though

In reply to Liam Taylor:

I don't know if this helps with your initial request, but this app is always up to date and based on peer comments so it's usually relevant. 

In reply to gethin_allen:

This fact is surely well known to anybody who has ventured out at all in the last ten or so years, including the UK. The number of campervans has become problematic, another tragedy of the commons.

In reply to Tony the Blade:

I use it as it helps find places not to go.

Theres a few odd suggestions in it near us with the local kids playground being one.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Well, yes. We must all reduce our footprint. Any reduction is a win. 

Throwing stones about emissions while having kids, grandkids, a boat and an interest in skiing isn't a good look.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

We got the awning for the van from Ventura. Pretty basic but only £200.

They make pretty reasonably priced roof tents too:
https://venturarooftents.com/collections/roof-tents

In reply to Liam Taylor:

We did a long trip in a 6.4m Peugeot Boxer. Went around Font, the French Pyrenees, French Alps, Margalef, Siurana, Chuillia, Val Daone, Frankenjura and when back in the UK we spent time in Cornwall, Portland, Yorkshire and Scotland.

We never found it necessary to pay for sites (except places like Margalef/Ceuse where there aren’t other options) as most areas were pretty accommodating for vans and we never really had issues with parking anywhere that we went. Occasionally we would have a slightly longer walk but on the whole it was fine.

We had the odd person complain about how we were taking up the space of 3 vehicles (actually more like 1.5 but never let truth get in the way of moral high ground), but when they and their climbing partner had both driven separately in 2 cars then there’s not much of an argument to be had really. It was either two of us having a longer walk, or two of them having a longer walk in.

It is definitely wise to avoid certain crags where it is going to be difficult but we found that really wasn’t the case for most places. With the van you have the luxury of just moving to another area to avoid problems.

The hardest places are actually the non climbing areas. If we visited cities we would always find somewhere on the train line where we could park and use public transportation to do the final leg of the journey.
 

On emissions, we did less miles than we would do in our normal UK life because we stayed in each place for 2-3 weeks (okay I know the van emits more than our car) and in that time we didn’t fly anywhere either. I think people are quick to judge vans on that point without thinking of their own emissions - e.g. we used solar showers or swam in rivers for 9 months. At home we would have been having hot showers twice a day etc. We bought most food from the local markets which hadn’t been flow in from across the world. Basically i didn’t worry much about that.

I would say, however, that the big boxy motorhomes would be more of a pain than a panel van. Generally a lot more boxy and, i imagine, they are less robust when you inevitably scrape some low hanging branches etc.

Basically people hate on vans but you can do it very responsibly.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

I have a Ford Torneo based campervan and have toured europe a few times over the years. One thing I am absolutely certain about however is that Camper Vans  are of no use whatsoever onb climbing trips. 

Being fast and light is how you get the best out of a climbing trip. The small car, two people, a sack or two of gear and some lunch is optimum for early arrive at the crag. When on a remote climbing trip I either stay in a climbing hut/hostel or a B&B. These favour quick exit in the morning. 

The utter faff of cooking in a van, making it mobile and keeping it liveable just delays the start  of the climbing day. It results in fewer climbs, a longer walk in at best and also missing meetups with other climbers who aren't encumbered with a van.

Vans have their place imo. I love touring and being a traditional tourist in the van but absolutely no mixing of van living and climbing for me.

In reply to mutt:

Whereas for me, the van was great for this on a long trip. We climbed every other day for 9 months, so being uber efficient wasn’t necessary and having leisurely day was perfect for us to enjoy the trip. Cooking was always fine and after a few weeks you had a good enough routine where you could go somewhere quickly if you wanted to.

Or sometimes we would drive over to the parking as soon as we woke up and have breakfast at the crag. 

But we were just sport climbing/bouldering and not bothered about projects etc. maybe it would be different if you wanted optimal conditions or big mountain days out.

In reply to mutt:

Where to begin? You must be doing it all wrong if driving from accomodation every day is more efficient and relaxing than van dossing at the crag parking spot. Van living is just so wonderfully stripped down and simple.

In reply to mutt:

Ok…. Everyone is entitled to their opinion I guess. 
My experience is the total opposite of yours in general. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

why thank you. obvliously I'm not stupid enough to stay a long way from the climbing. The count house for example - my last away trip in the uk is about 200m from Bosigran. But in anycase driving a small car around the lanes is about 10% as stressful as driving the van and all that goes with it when sleeping in laybys

but you do you. if it works for you and doesn't interfere with the happiness of others I have no problems with your approach.

In reply to mutt:

Sorry, I assumed we were talking about mainland Europe. I agree that vans are increasingly problematical in much of England (one of the reasons I tend to avoid going there).

In reply to Robert Durran:

and in truth many many people (including me on occasion) prefer to sleep in their vans outside of climbing huts to avoid the snorers and take advantage of the facilities whilst getting local to the crags.

when I'm abroad I still prefer B&B's for the quick get aways. Perhaps its because I'm the anxious type wanting to max out the climbing and mininise the faff. Or am I getting soft

In reply to mutt:

What's the typical cost of a reasonably well equipped used campervan nowadays, 20k at a guess. You could be away, living carefree spending £100 per day on hotels and car hire for 7months with that, excluding insurance,fuel, maintenance. You would likely get 12 mth out of it using huts and bunkhouses.

This is not right for everyone, it is not cool for a start, no Instagram sunsets out of the back doors but seeing vans as a cheap route is folly.

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

You can’t sell those used hotel nights or re-use them when you’re back from a trip though. 

With the crazy price of Vans, i don’t think we would have lost much if we decided to sell after our trip.

We also moved a lot due to weather which is more difficult if using accommodation.

In reply to mutt:

I think we just differ in what we consider faff. I find the simple van life wonderfully free of faff and supremely relaxing. Interestingly, in a month in Spain earlier this year I drove about the distance I average in about ten days when at home. One of the biggest issues I had was not doing enough driving to keep my camera batteries and phone charged. I enjoyed up to ten hours sleep per night.

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

Most advantages of a van are available cheaply. My small van is the most economical car I've ever owned. It is no bigger except in height than estate cars I have owned. After buying it I spent just £150 on a bed and mattress and a tenner on a makeshift toilet. It is really just a big comfortable year round mobile bomb proof tent. I hardly ever have to pay for campsites. It has pretty much been lifechanging at almost no extra cost to me. I just wish I'd made the switch decades ago.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I don't like having the place I sleep in follow me around all day. 

It confuses me and I find I always feel a bit sleepy in the day yet too awake to sleep at night. 

I find having that separation and threshold to cross to transition from sleep place to awake place really helps.

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

yep, its not a lifestyle, it is a toy and a luxury to own a van just like any other. When I bought it I was probably believing in the marketing. There are a few sunsets that you can instagram if you try hard with the Van. It soon does however become apparent that there are many easier ways to get the instagram pics than driving to them in a Van.

Over the years I've become more real about the van. It does give me a few good weeks away with the kids in the summer. visiting the less instagrammable locations and just spending time in nature. That is what it is best at. In almost every other situation I use my car or my bike. In the end its a mode of transport ... not a lifestyle. Exactly the same experience can be achieved with a tent, or a willingness to book B&B's as you go. 

In reply to mutt:

I have the same learned experience. Having a van is great but it is a luxury rather than a cost saver. Many owners will struggle to recoup their initial.investment over the life of the van. 

This is not to say it isn't a valid choice, it just costs more than many expect and when those costs are balanced against the alternatives, it starts to look shaky. £40k on a used California or 2 years worth of accomodation and car hire?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Of course it can be done cheaply. I am talking here about typical costs of a reasonable van. You are at one end of the bell curve, £150k four wheeled gin palaces at the other. 

Looking at my comparison, would you tolerate 12mths away in your van?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm currently in Kintyre and they're thick on the ground here. Is it the breeding season for them already?

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

Of course. The point is that all the advantages of a van can be had cheaply, and indeed money can be saved. My five weeks in the new year cost about the same as flying and accomodation for one week last November. It is only the luxuries which are expensive.

Maybe not in Scotland, but I don't think a year in southern Europe would be anything but a pleasure.

In reply to montyjohn:

I'm guessing you don't like garlic either?

In reply to mutt:

I hate the word lifestyle, but to say it is just a mode of transport is plain wrong and obviously entirely misses the point.

Again obviously very different from B and B's. More similar to a car+tent but much more versatile.

In reply to montyjohn:

The van is the sleep place and the wonderful outdoors fresh air is the awake place for me🙂

In reply to Robert Durran:

Do you feel uneasy about that at all? Genuine question. The past few years I've become more conscious that when I daytrip to the Lakes or Snowdonia - normally to winter climb/walk - my 'impact' is mainly negative, another car parking space taken up. I might need to refill my car at a petrol station but I'm not well off enough to not consider where petrol is cheaper - normally a supermarket station en route, not a local garage in a village in the hills. And because of family commitments I very rarely stay for a drink or a meal in the area before heading home.  If you are sleeping in a free carpark and possibly cooking your own food do you also feel a bit in two minds about whether you presence has any upsides to local people?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Exactly, very different to BnB and tents for me. Van allows me to transport bike, kites, boards, wetsuits and any other stuff for a trip away, I get that some here only do climbing/walking, but I like alternatives on holidays/work away. 

Past 6 months spent in a T4 during weekdays, and many months/years in similar sized vehicles in the past. 

In reply to artif:

quite! its a mode of transport - just a big one that allows you to cart around all your toys. Add to that the bed and the kitchen and quite literally the kitchen sink. Seems to me that a little focus might be in order. 

I sail, paddleboard, climb and cycle. All of that can be achieved out of a car. 

I'm not against vans - I just recognise that it is a toy just like my paddleboard, dinghy, bike and climbing kit.  It does not make sailing, cycling, climbing or paddleboarding better.  If the OP thinks that getting a sizeable campervan will facilitate their climbing they will be in for disappointment. If they want a van as a toy to play at 'getting back to nature' then thats fine but I do wonder whether boxing ourselves up in a van corrupts the whole idea of being in nature.

In reply to mutt:

Please stop this silliness. You know perfectly well that it is also one's shelter for sleeping in and that this is pretty much the whole point.

Again, stop being silly. For many, it allows great flexibility to get more out of a trip doing these things and simply enhances their enjoyment of the whole experience. If you like BandB's then fine, but I can't imagine anything much more dismal when I could be in a nice place with my van.

In reply to mutt:

So a car is alright?

To take my toys with me would require an estate car plus roof rack and bike rack. Which has the same (maybe longer) footprint as my van and I'd need to add a tent etc to the pile.

All of which is fine for a weekend, but I use my van every week for working away from home and carry on my hobbies in the evenings. If I want to "get back to nature" I'll just bivvy where I want. 

In reply to TobyA:

No, not in Scotland. Genuine answer.

I last went to The Lakes I think seven years ago and the whole camping and parking thing was so extortionate and such a hassle that I've not felt an urge to go back. Last May I went to North Wales for the first time in seven years and likewise have been put off going back in a hurry. 

In Scotland I keep a low profile, can choose quiet spots and have my own shitter. I refuse to feel uneasy or guilty. I'm not going to pay for inconvenient campsites with facilities I don't need. There are a couple of quiet honesty box campsites I use convenient for climbing in Scotland with very basic facilities where I am happy to pay a fiver, but I'm very reluctant to pay £15 or whatever just to be inconvenienced. The occasional times I have paid recently have been for social gatherings or when with somebody who insists on the facilities.

Well I hardly ever use cafes, restaurants or pubs when not away and I'm not going to go out of my way to change that when away. I'm happy to pay locally for things I actually need. I pay my taxes, I use the roads. Scotland is my home.

I am getting increasingly fed up with being told to feel guilty about almost anything I do which makes life feel worthwhile or saves money. In fact I have been consciously working on my supposed guilt management for the sake of my own sanity. I am satisfied that what I do I do in a reasonably responsible way. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

 

I don’t think you should feel guilty about fairly harmless behaviour, but my goodness, you’re a Puritan. Or perhaps a Spartan. Shi77ing in a bucket* in an old van and refusing to cross the threshold of a tea-selling establishment! It all sounds like rather hard work. 

 

* Any “toilet” that cost a tenner is basically a bucket with pretensions…

In reply to seankenny: 

I don't think of it like that at all. No hardship. I just enjoy being outside in a nice place and making my own tea, coffee or food with the added bonus of saving money. 

Actually a small kitchen bin lined with a poly bag which is tied and disposed of. An al fresco morning dump in a pleasant spot is a genuine pleasure to me. Certainly a lot nicer than a dreary communal campsite bog.

Anyway, I'm just off up the A9. I'll stop at the Dalwhinnie junction, check the latest forecasts and then decide which way to head. Total freedom to wake up tomorrow morning pretty much anywhere in the north west

In reply to Robert Durran:

That's one of the most satisfying things about having a camper van, and you have a better view than almost every coffee shop. 

To the OP. After some thought, if I were touring around Europe in the spring summer or autumn, and if I had the budget I would buy a Ford Nugget Plus or something similar. Same length as an estate car with everything you need, including a loo. 

In reply to Liam Taylor:

Massive thanks for all the replies.

Lots of differing opinions which is great. I guess it comes down to what one wants another doesn't 

Some really helpful replies and by the sounds of it it will be a case of managing at some venues and not others in a larger vehicle. We are still undecided but in no major rush to purchase.

Many thanks

Liam

In reply to Robert Durran:

The Jack Reacher of the Highlands but on wheels...

In reply to Liam Taylor:

Look at camper vans instead of motorhomes, 6m should have shower, toilet and cooking facilities, you can get anywhere in it especially on the continent, they are the same size as most big work vans, the local workers don't have issues getting around. 

In reply to artif:

But I bet you dont park that car defensively to make sure nobody else can park there, like what I am seeing in every viewpoint carpark in Skye right now.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Fair enough. I was actually thinking more of your trip to Spain. I accept your point, my taxes are as likely to go to Cumbria and LDNP as they are stay here in Derbyshire and the PDNP. But being in another country raises these issues in a different way.

I don't know much about land ownership and access rights in Spain, but it's interesting reading about how they are starting to impose restrictions on the everyman's rights in Northern Norway because of popularity - have a quick look at the pdf sample of the new Lofoten Rockfax for a picture of Kalle rammed with campervans! - rights that I've happily taken advantage of over the last 25 years. It's hard to begrudge anyone else of what you've enjoyed but can also see how locals sometimes start thinking what is the upside of this for us? 

In reply to Fat Bumbly 2.0:

Your right I don't, and I try and avoid the honeypots if "wild" parking. 

Unfortunately, selfish entitled pr**ks are everywhere now

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

I have a caravan, which I tow with my motor home. I’ve even had the caravan modified so it can tow a small smart car, and I have a couple of  electric bikes in the motor home (there’s only just enough room, coz the tent and all the camping gear takes up a lot of space).  

In reply to Bottom Clinger:

No kayaks? How do you manage?

In reply to Bottom Clinger:

You don't have the odd camel tucked away in there as well, do you?

In reply to Wainers44:

The kayaks and paddle boards are lashed across my catamaran which I tow behind my superyacht. 

And before any of you ask, my paraglider and wing suit are stored in my glider which gets towed by my Hercules which contains my helicopters. 

In reply to FactorXXX:

Lost me there.

In reply to TobyA:

I'm pretty torn on arguments like this. I do think it's a positive for those with a bit of disposable income to make a point of spreading it around a bit, particularly in tourism-heavy areas that don't have a lot else going on economically. I'm lucky to have a decent job these days, and no kids costing me money, so I try to do that, though if I'm honest it's as much down to laziness and liking a treat as any good intentions. On the other hand, if the climbing community starts to embrace the argument that our presence in an area should only be welcome in proportion to how much money we bring in, then the logical endpoint is that we should just find different lifestyles altogether. Sure, someone who parks their van in a layby and brings their own food with them isn't contributing to the local economy at all. But on the scale of capitalistic consumption, someone who pays a tenner a night for a basic campsite, eats out once or twice during the week and spends their days out in the mountains being self-sufficient is closer to the cheeky van dosser than a "good" tourist who sleeps in a nice hotel, eats out for almost every meal and pays money for every bit of entertainment in between. If visiting a National Park without throwing money around should be considered anti-social then I question the whole concept of National Parks.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Don’t fill up at the Dalwhinnie service station. £1.62 a litre for unleaded this morning whilst most other places were well below that. You could buy a really nice bin to poo in with the savings. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

Book and now TV character.  Roams America on greyhound buses with no home righting wrongs. But ex military policeman not maths teacher. Also beats up terrorists and gangsters rather than chops naughty bolts.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Not surprised at that...
Jack Reacher is a fictional character that roams around the USA using the Greyhound and his own two feet.
He has no plans and his only luggage is a toothbrush.  
He is an ex Military Policeman in the US Army and has an unerring habit of stumbling into situations on his travels that he feels compelled to sort out in a rather straightforward fashion.
youtube.com/watch?v=yH3gOsDoWfQ&

In reply to Thugitty Jugitty:

Don't worry. Filled up at a central belt Tescos.

In reply to FactorXXX:

Wimpish Jack Reacher is a poor analog for a hard-nosed, tight-fisted Scotsman!

In reply to Ian Parsons:

Don’t be daft. 

Edit: sorry, I misunderstood. After the Red Barron shot me down, I never flew a Camel again. 

In reply to TobyA:

Leonidio situation a case in point. Another example of poor van’life behaviour in general there. 

Robert, I totally agree with your sentiments here, I’ve no idea but suspect ‘mutt’ is merely trolling. 

In reply to Luke90:

+1

In reply to mike reed:

No I'm not. I said over and over again I have no problem with those who want to stay in vans. 

The OP is asking for a variety of point of view. And he gave thanks.

Not everyone has the same view and at least I have experience.

In reply to mutt:

Of course your opinions are fine, but you just make yourself look daft and undermine your credibility by saying things untrue things like that a van is just a mode of transport.

In reply to Luke90:

I suspect very few people go thinking "I'm going to be anti social" but I suppose the most obvious way in which we end up being anti-social to some is with poor parking. I went to  Aldery Cliff the other night and when I got there it was surprisingly busy. I parked on the verge out on the lane, completely off the road but it is a grass verge and it has been wet and muddy recently, so I don't think I ripped up the ground as I drove out, but I'm sure there are tyre prints in the grass that weren't before. Some might say that's anti social? Look at the verges below Stanage, from folk parking despite signs asking them not to. Sometime blocking access to bigger vehicles along the lane, and definitely leading to a lot of damage to the verges. 

In reply to TobyA:

Mild-mannered scientist Dr David Banner did it first.  (1970's TV version of Bruce Banner.)

In reply to TobyA:

You mentioned The Lakes and Snowdonia in the post I was replying to, so I followed that up.

It seems to vary between provinces.

We were mostly in Valencia where overnighting in vans is, I believe, allowed. None of the places we used were crowded (we were alone at some) and there was no sense of it being an issue. Of course there will be places where numbers of vans are a problem but they can simply be avoided.

We went to one very quiet and out of the way area in Aragon (where we understood that overnighting in vans is not permitted). There was a basic and cheap camping area near the crags where we planned to stay but we had to flee within a couple of hours of arriving because we were terrorised by a demonic cat which made life impossible. We found a very secluded spot just up the road and had no problems there. It was the only time on the trip we had to drive to the crags (the crag parking spot was right near the campsite so would have felt rather cheeky).

So basically just a matter of being sensible and avoiding problem areas.

In reply to Liam Taylor:

Park in campsites or suitable commercial parking. Get 2 electrically assisted bikes and mount on the back of your van.

For boulder pads maybe you can drop off your wife and pad (vice versa) and take the van to parking area and cycle over?

In reply to TobyA:

Sure, there are countless additional ways you could behave anti-socially, but I think that's a separate question from whether spending plenty of money should be a basic expectation for anyone visiting a tourist area.

In reply to seankenny:  

Love it! Robert gets my vote.

Mick

In reply to Luke90:

Where did the "plenty of money" come from? The original point seems to have been around people bringing pretty much everything with them and so not really putting anything into the local economy vs needing everyone to stay in a 5* hotel.

In reply to mondite:

I wasn't trying to twist or misrepresent that post. My point is just that if we accept the premise that someone's presence in a tourist location has to be justified by economic input into the area then a lot of climbers are going to be much closer to the non-contributing end of the scale than the most "welcome" tourists who spend a lot more. Putting any kind of price tag on whether someone is a justified visitor or not inevitably raises questions about where you draw the line, and that way lies further exclusion of less well off people from the outdoors, or people with a taste for cheap campsites and independent adventures in the hills.

I think there's a middle ground where we positively recognise the value in tourists choosing to spend money without actively chastising those that spend less. National Parks, in particular, have access for everyone as one of their founding principles but I don't think someone's welcome in any area should be contingent on the money they bring with them.

In reply to Robert Durran:

It’s not the brewing up outside or making one’s own dinner that I struggle with (they’re good things, right), it’s the blindness to other sorts of pleasure such as visiting a cafe. Which in the scheme of things is a pretty humble amusement. 
 

France, Spain, Italy, they all have amazing food cultures. Ignoring that on a climbing trip for just making pasta in a car park is… well, it’s a thing, I guess. 

In reply to seankenny:

I did have a token coffee at the truck stop where I had my three showers of the trip. Felt quite extravagant at the time having already forked out for the shower.

I really enjoyed cooking loads of the great fresh veg, fish or meat available and drinking the €2.50 wine. Spanish Lidl did pretty well out of me.

And carpark makes it sound a bit grim. They were almost all lovely scenic spots. These places were some of the trip's highlights.

In reply to Luke90:

Yep  - agreed, although in my case spending any money is the consideration rather than plenty!

By the way, do I remember correctly that you're the moderator for  Roystone Grange? We went there last Sunday. Have you been back since the incident of the collapsing foot ledge?

In reply to Robert Durran:

We need to hear more about the demonic cat now Robert!

In reply to TobyA:

I do appear to still be the moderator but honestly I'd forgotten the place even existed. It doesn't feel like a crag you'd visit more than once unless it was right on your doorstep! I only asked to be moderator so I could get the database up to date with the new BMC guide that had just come out at the time (and maybe it was me that added the warning about the loose rock, we did have a little incident). I'm afraid I've got no special interest in the place. If anyone would like to take over, they'd be welcome to it.

In reply to TobyA:

It is amusing that climbers have gone from giving a small but fairly steady stream of payments to local landowners and small business types in poor rural areas, to giving considerably larger streams of cash to the automotive industry and insurance companies. Tediously, this is almost exactly what mainstream economic theory suggests would happen! The same basic econ also suggests that when what are called “negative externalities” occur - think factory emissions, vans blocking up parking spaces - then the producer should pay…  Of course 25 years ago the negative externalities simply weren’t very big, so getting the producer to pay up wasn’t worth it. Now in a lot of cases it is. 

In reply to Luke90:

Let's not bring logic or reason into this. The party line is that you have to demonise people who visit for a short time and don't bring enough to the local economy, and at the same time demonise people who visit permanently and bring too much.

In reply to Luke90:

One line of argument I've heard is that visiting poor climbers are often young, frequently students, and so spend little/no money. But many of them come back to areas they got to love in their youth a few/many years later when they have jobs, may have a family with them, and then they spend a lot more.

Certainly true in my case, although less so for Robert it seems

In reply to Luke90:

And yet you have been the one continually jumping to the extreme.  The problem is if all the tourists dont spend much money, whilst blocking up all the parking spots with their campervans then the local authorities are going to have to look at other sources of revenue to the detriment of all.

There is also a difference between some who isnt well off vs someone who is but chooses not to contribute to the area they are enjoying. Whilst vans can be done fairly cheapily a lot of those blocking up the parking spots to dodge that campsite fee arent owned by people in that category.

In reply to mondite:

Is it ok for someone who is well off to do van trips on the cheap when they can so that they can afford to do more trips, some of which will be necessarily be more expensive and and involve spending more in poorer countries inaccessible by van? Or can we find a way to feel guilty about that too?

In reply to TobyA:

Reliving it would be rather traumatic. Always good to find uses for the clip stick though.

In reply to TobyA:

Probably related to the Lancastrian wildcat

In reply to Lankyman:

That cat looks like it would be away with your cheese on toast. Don’t trust it for a second!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Surely, feeling guilty should not be a choice? If you are guilty you should know it and feel it, and vv.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Well, I don't know about that, but if you're buying petrol in the central belt, buying food in the central belt, buying the van in the central belt, getting it fixed in the central belt and paying council tax in the central belt .... but creating potholes in Wester Ross? I'm not sure the residents of Wester Ross are getting a good deal there. Are you?

But at least you're not killing the community, just witnessing its murder. En masse the campervans are wrecking its roads, making its journey's slower, more stressful and more dangerous, leaving disgusting waste and litter in beautiful spots, and cutting down trees to improve the view/photo from their van. But they are not killing the community - they're bringing in a trickle of money to the village shops and garages at least. I wave to them and smile when they pull over. I know that most of them, like you, are thoroughly decent people. It's systems, not people that are the problem, and it is AirBnB that is killing Wester Ross I think - that and the increasing inequality of wealth in our country. House prices rise faster than local salaries. Children leave and don't return. Same old story. "A family used to live here."

There have never been more visitors nor more wealth driven on the roads of Torridon. I must have passed a hundred million pounds on the road today. Fancy new houses are being built. Everything seems prosperous and it's another stunning spring evening here. The willow warblers are riotous and the first cuckoo was calling today. But the Torridon primary school is about to close.

Perhaps soon there'll be no-one left to clean the holiday lets, the house prices will tumble, and there'll be just be the campervans, driving round an unpeopled land, parking by the old ruins. Very picturesque I'm sure.

In reply to Lankyman:

Nice cat

In reply to Wicamoi:

So should I feel a responsibility to give the people who live in Wester Ross a "good deal" (as you put it) rather than just do my own thing responsibly?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Only you are responsible for what you feel. What do you feel?

Personally I think the people of Wester Ross, amongst others, are getting a bad deal and that it is the responsibility of the government to ensure that everyone gets a fair deal, and the responsibility of all of us to vote for governments that will achieve that. I very much doubt that you disagree.

In reply to Wicamoi:

We tax people and firms and distribute the money around for the express purpose of not having to think like this. And also for making the country actually function: Wester Ross is never going to be able to pay for its own potholes as there is hardly any economic activity there. Robert buying a fresh new poo bucket in Gairloch isn’t going to change that in the slightest. 

 

In reply to Wicamoi:

I'm gonna be controversial and say they are getting an stellar deal.

With a road network of over 370 miles and a population of ~8000 people, a quarter of which are pensioners, a fifth are children, and 35% of adults not 'economically active', my guess is the residents of Wester Ross have roads to use daily paid for by people from the central belt.

That's how it works in a society. We all chip in for services and infrastructure and we all get to use those sevices and infrastructure

p.s. Not to take away from what's happening socially and economically in those communities which is a different conversation altogether.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

And perhaps the local authorities could install some aires to mitigate some of the more egregious behavior amoungst the vanning communities 

In reply to mutt:

Local authorities are currently barely managing to provide statutory services never mind discretionary spending like aires. They are closing down libraries, which have a far greater social benefit than something which is basically a freebie for the already well off. Obviously, they absolutely should provide both libraries and aires, but the enough citizens of this country want to live in a low tax society to make it currently impossible.

In reply to TobyA:

It was probably attacking because cats are generally very clean creatures and spend a lot of time grooming themselves

In reply to seankenny:

I thought Scotland was flush with money? Perhaps not but even in these times of want my local council seems to be able to access government money to continually reorganse the road network.

those closer to the problem in Wester Ross will know more of course.

In reply to mutt:

As I understand it Scotland gets a good deal from central government but otoh, no local council is flush with money. Lots are on the verge of going bust! That doesn’t mean they are doing nothing, just that they can’t afford to do the things they are currently doing, which might well include roadworks. 

In reply to mik82:

Perhaps the cat was amorous rather than offended, and perhaps it was not in fact a cat but

Pepé Le Pew.  (Easy mistake to make apparently.)

In reply to seankenny:

Not the story in the Burgess Book of Lies! : free camping, with costs to the climbers' budget aided by 'taxation' (ie theft). :0

I've always found getting to know those in small local businesses (cafes, shops, local guides etc) is not so expensive, often highly informative, and sometimes provided unexpected benefits... it generally greatly enriched my holidays. I was a middle class professional, interested in more than just routes, though.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

And everybody else gets the lovely view of a camper van 😅😅

In reply to Graham Booth:

Sure, if they're also on the road or looking at it. In which case, seeing a vehicle probably won't be a huge shock to them.

In reply to Wicamoi:

Many of the holiday lets are owned and cleaned by people who live in the local area. Where I live many, many people rent out a room or cabin or cottage to supplement their income. Otherwise they couldn't afford to live in the area.

A bigger problem is second homes. But as ever Airbnb gets the headlines and the rants.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

I’ve enjoyed a decade of staying in Gairloch for my summer breaks.  The roads I used to get there are only maintained because there is a viable community at the end of them to justify the costs, so I was always happy to contribute to that community.   As a tourist I’m getting a great deal by having well maintained roads to somewhere so remote and low population density, and the roads aren’t there for the tourists, other than as they contribute to the community at the end of the roads.

This could go round in circles all day long. 

In reply to Wicamoi:

It was getting silly when I last stayed in Gairloch (too long ago) with camper vans coming over from Europe fully loaded with food, diesel, booze etc and trying to sneak on to the campsite at the end of the day and depart early to avoid paying.

If the villages fail and depopulate, the roads won’t be maintained and that’ll be the end of campers in the area.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

Holiday lets are a real issue unfortunately. I was recently looking for a new place to rent and there were 10 on zoopla, of which a couple were ok, but 350 "entire properties" on Airbnb.

Not sure how much longer this will last however as there's a massive oversupply.

In reply to wintertree:

I have a certain nostalgia for the days when today's highways were single track roads with grass down the middle. To look on the bright side it would certainly at least get rid of the big motorhomes if things reverted to that. 

In reply to Mr Lopez:

What's your point about pensioners? They pay tax on income just like anyone else, with the same threshold.

In reply to mik82:

I'd imagine it will last for many years. Oversupply or not they are all full (and could fill twice over) from may to Sept. 

Same with lots of motorhomes on the roads. Like it or not they are here to stay. 

In reply to mik82:

No, they are the headline issue. Fairly recently I  lived on a street with 8 houses. 2 were rented, 2 lived in and 4 were second homes. One of the Airbnb houses provided income to one of the other people who lived on the street. The second Airbnb was owned by a family who stayed in the village. Again, Airbnb gets the headlines because you can easily see how many there are. Not so easy with second homes.

In reply to mik82:

No, they are the headline issue. Fairly recently I  lived on a street with 8 houses. 2 were rented, 2 lived in and 4 were second homes. One of the Airbnb houses provided income to one of the other people who lived on the street. The second Airbnb was owned by a family who stayed in the village. Again, Airbnb gets the headlines because you can easily see how many there are. Not so easy with second homes.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Judging by the state of roads on Skye after a week there (car damaged of course),  a deterrent is in place.  I was told that locals want to keep potholes on one road because of vans.

In reply to Fat Bumbly 2.0:

I've just been there. Some roads have been resurfaced or at least patched up recently I think. The roads certainly seemed better than some places in the central belt.

In reply to Robert Durran:

They were bad, very bad.  The main road through Armadale was tricky.  Good training for Edinburgh.

In reply to Fat Bumbly 2.0:

The Elgol road has been improved I think and a really bad section of the Dunvegan road beyond the Glen Brittle turn off was sorted.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Was there on Friday. Still some chunks missing! (Although resurfaced parts too).

In reply to Fat Bumbly 2.0:

As you are probably very aware, the trick with potholes is to be able to spot them and drive around or slow down.

The high  upright driving position of a van makes this far easier. The Berlingos and Dispatch are notably better than the long bonnet hatchbacks I have had , the best though is the Boxer

A couple of days ago I stopped at a sort of viewpoint/layby in the west which invited people to pay £7 via a phone app to park their van for the night. It stipulated that the van had to be fully self-contained including a toilet. No facilities were provided. It did seem a bit odd when you could park the other side of the road on a bit of rough ground or just up the road for free, yet several motorhomes seemed to be taking advantage of the opportunity to pay (at least I assumed they were paying). I wasn't really sure what to make of it. I wonder if there are many of these spots

Skye didn't seem too busy to me, though I avoided the honeypots and it was no problem finding secluded spots for a small van with virtually no traffic for the night. Having driven further than I had planned, I did fill up with diesel at the Broadford Co-Op (actually cheaper than a Central Belt Tesco) So that is a little bit of guilt "managed", though I suppose it only offsets a bit of the extra carbon guilt. Actually the Co-Op has morphed into an Asda, which, being a big supermarket chain, is probably evil in multiple ways and so giving it business probably dwarfs all other guilt for the trip.

Nice weather though and lovely empty roads on the drive there and back.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Just wondered,  did you go down the Glenbrittle Road at all? If so what sort of state is it in at the moment?  It was awful 2 years back!

In reply to Fiona Reid:

No, afraid not.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

Both holiday homes and AirBnB are a problem, and you are right that AirBnB allows some locals to make good money out of tourists. Hurrah! The trouble is that it also allows outsiders to make good money out of tourists. AirBnB is creating a market for outsiders to buy local properties which didn't previously exist. It's a business opportunity for anyone with money to invest. AirBnB and the NC500 are why prices are rising so fast I think, not the long-standing issue of empty holiday homes. While no-one begrudges locals putting an AirBnB on their croft, they nevertheless become part of the doom spiral, part of the rising inequality which means young people have no choice but to leave. You might say that it provides cleaning jobs - it does - but not all of these are local. I'm told that the property the National Trust lets out in Glen Torridon is cleaned by someone travelling in from Dingwall because they can't find anyone more local to do it. Lose lose. I know a croft in Diabaig with two AirBnB lets on it. The owners intended to live on the croft permanently, but the previously temporary (now permanent) closure of the Torridon school scuppered that plan because they have a young family. So now they live in Coupar Angus and the croft has one mostly empty home, and two holiday lets. It's all massively dysfunctional, wealth gap widening and community destroying. If the government or the councils don't do something soon I fear it will be too late. It's already too late for Torridon school.

In my opinion we need a tourist tax urgently. Let the tax be ring-fenced for supporting critical community services and infrastructure (schools, medical practices, community housing projects) so that there is an opportunity for young people to stay in the area and raise the families that fill the schools and make community. A pound a night for every campervan, five pounds for every AirBnB night, and £1000 per mile for each of the twenty Posche Caymen in a convoy that I waited impatiently for in a passing place last week. Ditto the ten Lotus Elises. And £100 per decibel-minute for the motorbikes. And increase the council tax on second homes by 100% each year for the next five years. 

It's a mystery to me why I'm not First Minister

In reply to Robert Durran:

No problem. Likely headed there next weekend so will report back if the thread is still going. 

In reply to Wicamoi:

Count yourself lucky. I got stuck behind a massive convoy of tractors all with flags on them trundling around the NC500 on the Applecross coast road. I don't think they were local crofters either. I would charge them by the hour rather than the mile.

Anyway, I can now feel guilty about the lovely house in the NW I rented earlier in the year for my 60th birthday. And even more guilty that it was so lovely we've rebooked it for next year. That must be at least five locals I've kicked off the housing ladder.

In reply to Fiona Reid:

Was awful last May, well as far as the now enormous 'fairy pools' car park, better after to the camping.
my first visit on Skye for a decade and I was shocked by the traffic and the number of vans, especially the huge ones.

nick

In reply to Fiona Reid:

We drove down there the week before Easter.  Having driven for a few miles over about 10 days (Devon, Arrochar, Oban, Barra, Uists,  Harris then Skye), I can't recall it all clearly. But I have an idea some of the first bit towards Fairy Pools was awful. Beyond that all fine. I don't recall thinking that the surface was so bad that we shouldn't go down there. 

As for busy, it was bonkers, and that wasn't the easter weekend,  it was the week before.  Having loved the peace of the Outer Hebredies so much, we were shocked at how busy Skye seemed....and we had prepared ourselves for it being busier than the off Isles.

On the question of housing,  as we drove around,  you couldn't help play the game of "wow it would be great to live there...". However,  far from a shortage of housing,  and ignoring the dozens of derelict abandoned property,  it was pretty clear that the main issues were lack of work and depopulation which results, not housing shortage. 

In reply to Wainers44:

The thing I won't forget, apart from the third world roads, is that no matter how far from civilisation you think you might be, you will see a Tesco/Sainsbury's/Asda delivery van. Cannot work out how that's viable, but it must be.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Potholes hunt in packs.  Slow slalom through as few as possible.  Dunvegan Road's smooth tar was noticed.

I did not go down the Glenbrittle Road.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Yes we noticed the same. Slightly paranoid thought was that heavily subsidised deliveries for a while will kill of the local shops, leaving the battlefield clear for the supermarkets to hugely increase delivery costs etc.

We went out of way, quite literally,  to use community shops, local filling stations etc, just because that seemed the right thing to do.  No, we weren't obliged to do so, and could have stocked up en route. We would like the places to remain alive....if they wish to etc....

In reply to nickg_oxford and Wainers44:

Many thanks for the info. We're headed to the campsite for the weekend intending to stay there without moving the vehicle till we go home. I've not been to Skye in spring/summer since pre covid so stealing myself for chaos! 

In reply to Wicamoi:

There is a thriving primary school in Sheldaig. It's 15 mins on the school bus from Torridon. Could they not have gone there?

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

Probably an hour from Diabaig though. Boat needed for a ten minute school run?

In reply to Robert Durran:

The argument there would be that if they have already chosen to live 45 mins from the school then another 15 mins shouldn't make a difference.

13 mins at 20 knots would see the kids at school on the water. What a great way to arrive at school. 

In reply to Wainers44:

Don't worry about that. The Coop mafia has a monopoly on the islands and is very, very expensive. That's why so many people here use Tesco, Asda and Morrisons vans. 

Here's an example. New York bagels Coop £2.40. Tesco last week £1.20. What would you do if you lived here?

A shop near me sells locally made bread at £5.75 a loaf. I'd love to support local produce but just can't afford this. Free range chickens, locally reared, £17. I know supermarket chickens are ridiculously underpriced and I'd be happy paying double but 4 times is a bit of a stretch.

On the up side I can source venison at £3 per kilo.

In reply to Fiona Reid:

 I've not been to Skye in spring/summer since pre covid so stealing myself for chaos! 

Not too bad last week, but car parking can be competitive, not aided by rampant twospacing. Potholes:  I have managed to get my garage to fix the suspension - initially there was going to be a two week wait.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

Back in the 80s at Kishorn we had a young woman in the office who came across the loch from Plockton in about 10 minutes or so as a passenger in a speedboat and anyone who know the area or can look at a map can understand how long the journey from Plockton would have taken to Kishorn camp in a Howard Doris company bus!

Her family home became famous on TV as the police station in Hamish Macbeth and the cattle wandering on the shore were her brother's

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

'no matter how far from civilisation you think you might be, you will see a Tesco/Sainsbury's/Asda delivery van. '

Had friends who lived at Kilchoan, Ardnamurchan. Because it's technically on the mainland, they were typically entitled to free delivery. If they ordered anything from John Lewis in Glasgow, it would take a whole day for the crew of two to get there, make a delivery then get back. Madness.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

Obviously you live in a different kind of area to me - I'm in what's essentially a suburb of a city, although a lot of the people here would try and argue otherwise. 

Definitely not the case here - there's hundreds of airbnbs empty.  They're not going to be fitting the Welsh government rules of 182 days let to qualify for business rates so instead they're going to be stung for double council tax which will be over £4000 for a typical small terraced house.  The ex-airbnbs are starting to filter back onto the sales market and I expect this will continue with the sustained pressure from interest rates. 

The airbnbs here are the issue. The second homes and short term lets are one and the same. When I first moved here the area that I lived was affluent but with plenty of affordable rentals - some students would choose to share houses etc.  As I said there's now hundreds of short term holiday lets and a handful of normal rentals. The change was very noticeable over the past few years in terms of parking, how busy shops are (several closed down citing lack of custom) etc.  I'm concerned now that a lot of the airbnbs are empty that the place with be hollowed out. 

In reply to mik82:

It's the complete opposite in Skye. Almost all Airbnb's are fully booked for the season, or will be shortly. The shops are stuffed full of people spending money, which they wouldn't be spending if they weren't here. The supermarkets are often sold out of fresh veg and bread by mid afternoon. The restaurants and pubs are buzzing. Small local enterprises are springing up. Climbing wall, cafes, galleries etc. Builders, electricians, plumbers are busy. 

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

You are right but I do regret the loss, or at least extreme dilution, of a culture. At work yesterday we were noticing how few of the 'customers' were from the island and how long it was since we had needed a Gaelic translator. Progress has a price.

(As do b&bs now, this weeks one would have outpriced the Cuillin Hills 10 years ago)

In reply to rogerwebb:

Isn’t the idea that outsiders “dilute” a culture a bit of a racist trope? Or at least kind of “blood and soil nationalism”? How is this different from someone saying London or Birmingham are ruined because of immigration?

In reply to seankenny:

The problem is when there is such a number of "incomers" that the locals are overwhelmed.

This has nothing to do with race, religion, or anything such else.

Where I live - Worcester, a city of just over 100k - there has been a large influx of Brummies, all living in the same area, which does affect things. (Particularly when a significant percentage of them regard locals as "Country bumpkins").

Indeed a number have moved here because of their attitude to the "coloured" persons in Birmingham that they have specifically moved away from - not an attitude prevalent amongst us locals.

In reply to seankenny:

Not really. It's just a thing that's happening. It was a very distinctive culture with it's own language and customs. Now less so. There are advantages in change and there are losses.

Nothing 'blood and soil' in regretting the passing of an indigenous culture. 

There would be if someone was intent on driving out the 'other'.

In reply to rogerwebb:

Yes that’s true, but why is this culture of Skye so affected by tourists? Are they changing what language is spoken at home, or between friends? Are they affecting the culturally distinctive ways in which people entertain themselves? The simple assertion that “new people >> culture threatened” always seems to elide the tricky question of how actually this occurs.

This kind of language is usually a precursor to that sort of action though, isn’t it? 

In reply to seankenny:

In short yes.

In long it's a complex story involving the replacement of traditional ways of making a living by a tourist centered economy often fueled by an input of outside capital from people wishing to make a living on the island. That doesn't mean that either that process or the people involved are in anyway wrong but the result is the gradual absorbtion of one culture by another.

I find that sad, others may disagree.

Is it? There's nothing aggressive in a lament.

In reply to rogerwebb:

I think “replacement” is a poor word, though for sure it’s often used in this context. Really it’s a series of individual choices made in the face of the overwhelming fact that “traditional ways of making a living” deliver the traditional outcome of extreme poverty. Across the world people have faced a similar choice: becoming part of the modern world or living poor, agrarian lives. All of our ancestors made the choice, sooner or later, and probably sooner. Having seen enough no people living “traditional” lives in poorer parts of the world I find laments for them somewhat strange.
 

As for one culture “absorbing” another, let’s consider another example - Punjabis! Not that long ago the vast majority of Punjabis were living very traditional lives as farmers, sure plenty moved into industry and the armed forces but I don’t think that particularly invalidates the point. Then a considerable number moved to the U.K. where they have become very British whilst still keeping large swathes of Punjabi culture. I mean sure, there is a selection effect - the more stay at home types did indeed stay at home, but lots of their culture lives quite comfortably here in the U.K.. It’s perfectly possible to be a modern Brit and still enjoy brinjals and Bhangra. And that’s with a lot more contact with the dominant culture than just some tourists half the year. 

This is pretty typical of most South Asians including the more (originally) urbanised ones. Whenever I hear laments like yours, typically but not always from the fringe parts of the U.K., I do struggle to understand what’s missing when it’s something British Asians (and British people with roots in the Caribbean or Africa) just do as a matter of course. 

 

The far right is all about the laments for a lost past. It’s “Make America Great Again” (my emphasis) rather than just “Make America Great”. Recapturing a lost order and a culture that has been damaged by its contact with the other is very typical. 

In reply to Liam Taylor:

My experience probably echoes many. A lot of the crags I visit have 'parking' that is just a 3 or 4 car sized lay-by.

I'd also say that access to some crags could be very difficult; I'm currently in the Prealpes D'Azur and even in a Renault Trafic I've had to do quite a few three points turns on hairpin bends! I guess if you are selective in your choice of crag (biggish roads / dedicated parking areas you could be OK.

The other issue to consider is that of security. It's a bit hard to 'leave no valuables' when you are parking a campervan near a crag!

In reply to seankenny:

I agree with much of what you say but I think that you are perhaps missing the difference between a tiny minority culture based on a few small islands and the much larger ones you refer to. The former will likely disappear completely in the next century the latter probably not. With it goes a language and a way of thinking.

Like any loss of diversity I think it is a shame. I struggle to see the connection you have made between that and the far right.

In reply to rogerwebb:

Yes that’s true, there are large immigrant communities in the U.K. that dwarf those living on Scottish Islands - there are more Somali speakers than Gaelic speakers and it’s not as if Somalis are one of our larger ethnic groups. But hasn’t Gaelic been disappearing for decades? It’s good to keep these things alive but that’s the responsibility of those who speak it; they can’t blame a recent influx of tourists for something that they themselves have chosen for many years. 

When people talk of “diluting” or “overwhelming” and blaming a cultural change on outsiders, then that for sure can be a stepping stone to far right nationalism. (Clearly not always!) If no one speaks a language at home then how can that be the fault of outsiders visiting for a week, or moving to the island? Big cities have people moving to them all the time, they also have thriving minority languages. Surely keeping Gaelic culture alive is the preserve of those who love it, and their failure to do so can’t be anything to do with holidaymakers. 

In reply to seankenny:

For many years, and within living memory there were active efforts to erradicate through the banning of its use within schools.

I don't think anyone has used the word 'blame' in regard to tourism. That something has a consequence that was not intended does not make it blameworthy or wrong. 

Not sure I saw anyone use overwhelming or blaming anyone. I defend the use of dilute, I am one of the diluters. The more who don't speak the language the less it is used in schools or business. 

I don't think that this is an issue where, at least since the school language ban ended, there is any fault or blame to be attributed.

In reply to rogerwebb:

Policymakers are not holidaymakers!

“The problem is when there is such a number of "incomers" that the locals are overwhelmed.”

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/motorhome_and_crag_parking-7701...

To me the word in this use carries an unsavoury subtext but if you feel that it accurately describes what has occurred then go for it. I just find the suggestion that it is visitors that have somehow caused this decline a bit silly (note I’m not a regular visitor to Skye so I’ve no axe to grind here). The idea that culture is preserved or helped by fewer visitors and a “back to the land/traditional lifestyle” approach strikes me as absurd. Which nation has done more for spreading Korean culture and language around the world, autarkic North Korea or the much more open South Korea?

Perhaps the brutal truth is that it is very hard for tiny minority languages to survive without a great deal of care and nurture. I’m surprised that a country that has voted for a nationalist party for years doesn’t take that much care. 

In reply to seankenny:

I haven't said they are 

Not my words

I haven't said or suggested any of that.

Quite!

In reply to rogerwebb:

No, not your words, but I was replying to: “Not sure I saw anyone use overwhelming…”

I was responding to posts of yours such as:

“a complex story involving the replacement of traditional ways of making a living by a tourist centered economy often fueled by an input of outside capital from people wishing to make a living on the island…  the result is the gradual absorbtion of one culture by another”

Here you do seem to suggest that the loss of traditional culture is a “result” of the movement towards a tourist centred economy and an influx of capital from outside, which is what I paraphrased! Sure, the suggestion that the inverse would help, ie less tourism implies a reinvigorated culture, is my interpretation of what you’re saying, but to my mind you did say that tourism to Skye was a cause of cultural decline. 

I obviously totally get your point that it was no one’s fault and no one is to blame.

In reply to seankenny:

Ok, no worries