UKC

Tom Livingstone and Aleš ?esen have made the first ascent of the West Ridge of Gasherbrum 3

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In reply to UKC News:

so awesome!

In reply to UKC News:

beefy! well in lads.

In reply to UKC News:

Commendable effort, but I get irritated by this kind of comment:

"Although I say 'good effort' to those who ascend mountains with supplemental oxygen, a track in the snow, tents in place, Sherpa support, fixed ropes and other teams around… they're a universe apart from our practice of alpinism."

"Those" are often people who have full time jobs (and sometimes families) and don't have the luxury of having all the time in the world to invest in developing themselves as high end alpinists and planning these kind of expeditions.

The exceptions to this are climbers like Paul Ramsden who actually does have a full time job, family and does rad alpine style first ascents.... but he doesn't come out with these sorts of statements that belittle those who go on commercial expeditions (nor does he take the fixed ropes down a mountain just because they're there).

Rant over

In reply to Hannah V:

I think anyone climbing at the level of Paul, Mick, and Tom have or had a period in their lives where climbing was all. 

Tom is doing it now cause he's young. Once skills are established it can be combined with careers family etc etc. That's what I keep telling myself anyway.

Personally I was blown away by this ascent. I can't think of a bigger or more impressive 8 route by a brit on an 8000m mountain in the last 10 years. I'd be delighted to be corrected.... 

In reply to Hannah V:

I see no belittling; just a statement of fact and an in fact generous "good effort". A very long way from the often quite derogatory dismissal of commercial expeditions among mountaineers.

Anyway, a very impressive climb.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Ok, my misinterpretation then. I didn't get quite the same impression from the "good effort" that he genuinely meant it. It came across as comparing his ascent to those of people who have a completely different life situation. 

In reply to Hannah V:

I' d read it as just adding perspective for readers with limited experience in mountaineering rather than a put down.  

In reply to GrahamD:

Yeah, maybe it was meant that way - but I recall Tom had written a very lengthy article on UKC some years ago about how "style matters" i..e. not using fixed ropes, oxygen etc so I saw it from his point of view that that kind of style was less of an achievement. Kind of surprising (hypocritical perhaps?) then that they chose to descend in the style that he was apparently so against back in 2018.

In reply to Hannah V:

Possibly it could be seen as contrived not to use the fixed ropes since the option is there? I can't comment; needs someone with more knowledge of those peaks. 

Tom does use some flowery language but for me it seems justified in this instance. Like Alasdair said above, this ascent does seem totally out there. So rare to get such committing, technical climbing on a mountain approaching the 8000m level.

In reply to Hannah V: I think you reading too much into this and taking offence where none is intended . The commitment involved to do this is so far from a luxury guided trip up Everest it’s barely the same thing but there is a commonality in the endeavour . Some people are knobs about being better than others at tiddlywinks , most  are not . In toms case  I’m going to say  not . 

In reply to mike123:

I'm not questioning the impressiveness of the ascent, but the whole point of having a forum is to share views - so I've given my views on how I read the content. I still think the comparison to supported-style ascents of 8000ers was strange and unnecessary, firstly because as mentioned above he is a professional alpinist and will of course be climbing in a much more different style to those who aren't mountain professionals. I don't think that needs pointing out, even for folk who aren't mountaineers. Secondly, knowing what he's already written about his view on fixed ropes, oxygen, sherpa support etc I find it difficult to read the article with neutral eyes, so I don't doubt my interpretation is influenced by this. Anyway, I don't have more to add - I've said what I thought.

In reply to Hannah V:

Yes, you've said what you've thought and others have responded with differing takes on it. You could say that it's the whole point of the forums.

In reply to Hannah V:

They're also people who can afford extremely expensive commercial expeditions. How much money are you willing to spend to stand on an arbitrary point? The idea that you can pay your way past the years of learning required to operate independently in big mountains I think is just a shame - the journey has so much value, even if it never leads you to that point on a snowy rock in the greater ranges.

Massive effort Aleš and Tom.

In reply to Hannah V:

I really don't think that is true at all. Loads of people who don't make their living from mountaineering climb in alpine style in the Greater Ranges. I don't know where this strange notion that "professional mountaineers" are somehow set apart like this in the way they climb is coming from. The division, if there is one, is between self-supporting mountaineers (whether professional or amateur) and paying clients on commercial trips.

In reply to UKC News:

What a route to have under your belt, well done guys.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes, I agree there are plenty of people who don't make a living from mountaineering who climb in alpine style in the Greater Ranges. My point earlier was that the people who do choose to join commerical expeditions are unlikely to be mountain professionals unless they're the ones doing the leading/guiding. My problem with the article was that TL was comparing his style of climbing to that of a completely different type of mountaineer. Why? Why not just compare his style to someone of a similar calibre?

And since he'd already made a big deal some years ago about how the commercial style ascents involving fixed ropes, oxygen, sherpa support was not his cup of tea (https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/tom_livingstone_-_style_matter...) I interpreted the paragraph as just another opportunity to remind everyone about how much more superior his climbing is compared to those who go on supported expeditions. It would have already been obvious from the ascent that he is, but I didn't see the need to bring in the comparison. That is unfortunately my take on the article, but I get that everyone else doesn't necessarily read it in the same way.