UKC

**Grumpy post alert**

I have noticed that climbing competitions these days always seem to be accompanied by the most extraordinarily monotonous sort of loud thumping sound over the loud speakers. Now I know that there is room for a wide spread of tastes in music, but this stuff is objectively garbage.

This morning I was  at climbing at Ratho while the BLCC's were taking place. The throbbing racket was virtually intolerable, making clear communication with my partner difficult, compromising safety, and under normal circumstances I would probably have complained about the choice of "music" since it was certainly costing me a good half grade (I don't complain lightly about music at walls, the only other occasion being when awful jingly Christmas music being played more than a week before Christmas resulted in a blown onsight).  At one point I commented that the aural onslaught was now  sounding a bit like some sort of endlessly pulsing siren . Eventually someone came round telling people that it was not part of the music and that the fire alarm had actually gone off and that we had to evacuate the building. On this occasion it turned out to be a false alarm, but it is possible to imagine that the cream of an entire generation of British climbing talent might have been incinerated had it been a real fire.

Why is this sort of music deemed appropriate at climbing competitions when it would certainly not normally be tolerated in public spaces. Surely silence apart from encouraging crowd noise would be much better and fairer on all. Other sports, as far as I know, don't inflict this sort of cacaphonic nightmare on competitors, spectators and innocent bystanders, so why climbing?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Throbbing Racket, Aural Onslaught and Cacophonic Nightmare are some of my favourite groups to listen to. Especially while questing for the send.

In reply to Robert Durran:

When I was eighteen we used to seek out pubs that had jukeboxes, space invader and pinball machines. Basically, lots and lots of noisy distractions that, now I'm an old git, would run away from.

In reply to Robert Durran:

It's amazing what sort of musak is tolerated in public places: often 120 beats a minute, "melodies" based on one or two notes, no harmonic interest, no dynamics, whiney vocals. Just utterly boring aural blancmange.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'd recommend noise cancelling headphones.

Tbh I hate it even when there's no comp on. I realise my own bias - I don't mind some quieter, chill dad rock or cheesy pop type stuff, and presume that is no longer played because I am getting older and older than the people who work on the front desk and who presumably don't like that stuff. But I wholeheartedly agree with you hating the rave nonsense.

Being angry and distracted tends to lead to awful sessions, and now I'm extra sensitive to noise (thanks, post concussion) it means I risk just having to leave all together. Noise cancelling earplugs/headphones a) risk not staying in when climbing, b) aren't cheap and c) mean you can't necessarily communicate with other climbers when there's a good safety reason for doing so. Noise sensitivity is one of those things you just don't appreciate until you have it. 

​​​​I am aware this makes me also sound old and grumpy. Not sure I've ever felt so at home on UKC...

In reply to mik82:

You're entitled to your poor taste, but what about competitors who would rather listen to something literally uplifting in their quest to podium?

In reply to Robert Durran:

If they're as focused as I think they would be, I imagine they'd barely notice it. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

It's not just when there's a comp. Well, all centres seem to indulge when there's a comp on but that's fine because I won't be there then because that's not what I go for. But the shit music getting consistently louder was the final straw that made me stop putting up with the shit setting at one of my local walls. A bunch of the regulars told them about both issues repeatedly but just got some "sorry you feel that way" crap in response, so I'm out.

In reply to Ciro:

Wearing headphones would probably drastically compromise the strength to weight ratio of some of the small children who were warming up on my long term project today, possibly spoiling their chances of medalling.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Crap music AND being burnt off by kids! Perhaps the bowling green awaits ... ?

In reply to Lankyman:

Just don't switch to chess - that's even worse for being burnt off by kids, often looking very bored as they dismantle and demolish your best efforts. At least it's done to the accompaniment of near-sepulchral silence, however.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I noticed while watching Olympic Trap Shooting of all things that it’s not limited to Climbing competitions. As an ex musician however I have learnt to tolerate various examples of poor or abhorrent taste among punters. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

Maybe you could make the grumpy posts a weekly column? I thoroughly enjoy them, even though I like techno at the wall.

In reply to pancakeandchips:

A 'Robert's Rant' column sounds great... (let stay away from 'Durran's Dump' though).

In reply to Offwidth:

i was going to suggest a YouTube channel would be the perfect format. Just Robert doing a monologue to camera every morning in the back of a van. Inoffensive background music provided by a few flies buzzing round an ominous pedal bin....

In reply to Robert Durran:

For a climbing comp. they should definitely be playing elevator music.

I'll get my coat.

In reply to Robert Durran: I think that bit about affecting communication and compromising safety between climber and belayer is absolutely fundamental and a significant risk. I’m astonished walls don’t appear to risk assess this. It can be hard enough communicating in a busy wall so having loud music impairing it further seems crazy to me. I get that communication can be exceptionally difficult out of doors but a wall is far from that and is a managed environment where managers have responsibilities for safety. Have you raised it with the management?

As an aside, I’ve noticed a few competitors use their own AirPods or whatever to cancel out the sounds so that they can better prepare for their time on the wall.

In reply to Neil Morrison:

To be fair to Ratho, the music played is normally quite varied, mostly inoffensive and at a sensible volume and nothing I think a reasonable person would complain about (well, apart from that awful Christmas music......)

It was certainly difficult to communicate yesterday during the competition due to the combination of large numbers of people, the throbbing music and the loud and incessant announcements and commentary, and it was a bit worrying that the fire alarm just blended in with the music. But I wouldn't blame the Ratho management for it (I assume the comp people just do their own thing). And these big competitions only happen probably a couple of times a year and so the disruption and offensive music is, on balance, probably a fair price to pay for having the best wall in the country to train on.

In reply to Robert Durran: fair enough but I imagine Ratho would carry the liability if there were an accident from a regular user and they complained of communication issues. I was suggesting alerting them as the consequences of an accident has the potential to impact on all users.

Sadly, in my limited experience, these comps and their organisers do tend to take over the wall with minimal regard for other users when it is a shared space.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Have just been out watching the local 10K go past (1200 runners). There was a guy on a bike with the lead bunch blaring out music from some device (and also shouting naff Yo!-type encouragement all the while). Not that I was ever anywhere near the front of any race in my running days, but that would have driven me mad and would have been an active discouragement. First time I've seen that - have been watching the race for maybe 20 years and it's always been pleasantly quiet until now.

In reply to Robert Durran:

 

That shouldn’t happen, the fire alarm should mute the music. They need to sort that ASAP.

In reply to arran_deakin:

I don't think it muted the music but it is just possible I am wrong about that; it all kind of blended in. I genuinely at first thought the alarm was part of the music.

In reply to Neil Morrison:

At Ratho there is now always fair warning by email* of closures for setting and the actual comp and there is uninterrupted access to the main lead wall, top roping and autobelays, so, apart from the music on the day, not really much to complain about.

*Though on this occasion stripping of the comp wall started a day earlier than advertised, which I did find a bit annoying having gone psyched for a last chance at a long delayed onsight only to find the route gone!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I think lurking behind the issue here, or perhaps the main issue here, is the question of taste, which is a near-impossible subject to discuss philosophically. Yet it’s very important. A classic paradox.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Yes, and certainly the throbbing noise at these comps is not to my personal taste.

But I would be asking the same question if, say, Bach piano music were being played at, it seemed, pretty much every climbing competition. Why is it that this repetitive throbbing stuff has become the soundtrack to climbing competitions right up to Olympics level rather than any other genre? And it is definitely a comp thing rather than a general climbing wall thing; most walls, I think, play a good mix and probably tend to avoid anything too controversial.

Maybe somebody knows the answer.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Now that would be a real breakthrough, worth billions commercially; think of the energy saving potential in aviation, on building sites or in the Amazon warehouses!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I don't know about the Ratho situation, not climbing there - but generally I find the standard wall "pop music that people aged 30-50 recognise" quite unmotivating when pulling hard (I say this as a fully paid up member of age 30-50). For me what is played tends to lack energy and oomph, is too slow, and is all-round more suited to sitting in a cafe.

Appreciate I may in the minority here, but give me something energetic and exciting any day of the week - drum and bass, techno, even metal are great for sending.

In reply to OG:

I presume that's why that sort of thing gets played more now - I agree background pop/rock is inoffensive, but surely that's the point? One person's 'energetic and exciting' techno - played loud, because presumably it doesn't work quietly - is another's, 'this is bringing on too many symptoms and I can't climb here now'. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'd like to hear the theme tune from Rocky on an endless loop. Or Eye of the tiger from Rocky III. Either or.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

There was also a guy - about two-thirds of the way down the field - vaping as he went along. "Perfect runner," he said with a laugh. Big plume of vape smoke - as someone said afterwards, probably not much fun for those running around him.

In reply to Queen of the Traverse:

It’s obviously a question of taste, isn’t it. After all we are talking about music genres that (people in this thread seemingly aside!) are incredibly popular, including amongst climbers. You like one thing, someone else likes another. And yes it does work at normal volumes… plenty of places do manage this and most people there like it. I am not suggesting it’s right to have it at club level volumes 

In reply to Robert Durran:

The use of ‘repetitive throbbing music’ will be designed to whip up the crowd., like a Club DJ would.  Watching footage of this weekend’s World Cup in Slovenia and last weeks Euros in Switzerland, it’s pretty obvious to me that this (and other techniques) works.

It’s fair to say that this won’t work for everyone and that it’s impossible to play music that everyone will like.

In reply to Robert Durran:

My favourite word of your complaint is the word 'objectively.' I take it you meant subjectively?

Tbh although I really enjoy a lot of up to date dance music of all the micro genres I wouldn't necessarily expect to like whatever someone else plays in a setting like that and wouldn't expect to have my tastes catered to. They're not going to play Lindisfarne or the Greatful Dead are they?

In reply to Robert Durran:

You know when you look down at all the new post titles in the forum and already know the author without looking at their name. This.

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In reply to Robert Durran:

I suspect you'd hate the Works, some lovely techno playing.

In reply to Neil Morrison:

Think of it as training for a windy day on a sea cliff.

In reply to Wee Davie:

No.

Are they even worse?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Are we referring to this competition?

youtube.com/watch?v=XWb8wj9HYus&

Because if you are, and bearing in mind that the majority of that music is not to my taste, you need to look up the dictionary definition of "objectively" there. However, it really shouldn't be party levels of volume, that I agree with.

In reply to Robert Durran:

In seriousness, I do think wall staff need to appreciate that people are affected differently by loud music and it can be an accessibility issue, particularly for those with hearing issues or sensory issues. For some people on the autism spectrum, loud music can mean it is overwhelming to be in a climbing wall.

Even for those without these issues, if you are feeling, e.g. low in mood, having to listen to very loud and unspeakably bad "landfill indy" whilst trying to achieve focus and flow can be really difficult and frustrating.

Of course, in an ideal world we can raise issues, but no one wants to be seen as a "kill joy" or "serial grump" by their local wall staff.

It would be excellent practice to:

- make staff aware of this

- keep volume at manageable levels

- vary the music

- put up a sign advertising "quiet periods" and letting people know that if they have issues with sound, they are welcome to raise these with staff.

As for comps, there is clearly a fairness issue for anyone with sensory issues having to put up with blasting music and DJs calling out their name.

Just a thought.

In reply to Alkis:

Yes, if that is this year. I think it is from the look of the setting.

So is that insidious noise techno music?

In reply to afx22:

If that is the case, then it seems a rather sad state of affairs for competition climbing that the organisers feel tha actual sport and the crowd itself can't provide an adequately exciting atmosphere in itself. Though it's probably a misplaced lack of confidence because these comps look pretty good to me and in no need of dumbing down for popular appeal.

In reply to DaveR: I think you  have maybe missed my point. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

No, and it's not one genre of music either, it's quite a few different ones. I think there was one track about 2/3s of the way through I heard there that I would call either melodic techno or progressive house, but that's about it. I love a lot of different genres of music that have little to do with each other, and some of them on both the electronic side and the rock side of things would be considered obnoxious by the uninitiated. Nothing I heard there would qualify as any of those, so you are actually being Grampa Simpson yelling at a cloud here. It's not like they're playing grindcore or dark industrial atonal techno.

The reverberation I hear in the recording of the video /does/ sound like it was way too loud though, that's not acceptable in my view.

In reply to Ciro: not so handy from a communication/ safety perspective. Fascinating how the safety aspect that was mentioned at the outset has slipped out of the discussion. 

In reply to Neil Morrison:

I’m not sure it has. I think we’ve kind of all agreed that it being too loud is a problem.

In reply to Alkis:

Robert would hate The Works anyway, just on general principles.  But fwiw if anyone really doesn't like the music in there (the techno would probably be one of Sam's playlists) just have a friendly word at reception and they'll happily change it. 

I think that's the case most places isn't it?  (Generally - not while they have a comp on!)

In reply to Alkis: I must be reading the thread differently.

In reply to Neil Morrison:

Unlikely.  "I'm a competent and attentive belayer but I dropped my partner because the music was loud" would go down about as well in court as it would if someone posted it on here!

In reply to Alkis:

I have not claimed that any of the music was any particular genre not least because I feel totally unqualified to do so. Someone else mentioned techno, so I was just wondering whether that is actually what it was. 

I simply said it was all just a dreadful throbbing noise.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Which it /objectively/ is not, even though I don’t like it. By all definitions of the word objective you are not being objective. If you said you really strongly despised the music, that is objective. Calling music you don’t like throbbing noise is /literally/ not objective.

PS: I mentioned techno because by your descriptions before I went to watch the stream that’s what I suspected it was. Even though I do like techno I very much do feel it can be obnoxious to people that don’t. It isn’t techno.

In reply to deepsoup:

Thanks, only going on the limited knowledge I have. I suppose my point is it shouldn't even come into the equation.

In reply to Robert Durran:

There’s an interesting point in Grimer’s podcast with Neil Gresham (part 2) sort of on these lines. Neil explains that many of the hardest climbers in the 90s were also into raving and he couldn’t understand what the current strong climbers, or just climbers in general at, for example, climbing festivals were into in terms of music or culture. 
Perhaps a tenuous dovetail, but I find it interesting. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

The problem with music at climbing walls is that climbers come from every background and every generation, making it very unlikely that any playlist will appeal to everyone there, or perhaps even the majority. Possibly the age profile is different at competitions, but even there I suspect quite a few will dislike the sort of music described, and some will have a real problem with it. 

.I am a musician, so perhaps I place a higher value on music than as background noise, and I admit that I find background music anywhere an annoyance, because (like many musicians) I have music going on in my head nearly constantly, which background music interrupts. 

Why is music necessary anyway? If you feel music energises you when climbing then wear earbuds and benefit from your own choice of music without inflicting it on those around you.

In reply to Howard J:

+1

Music is an intensely personal thing, which touches very deep emotions. To have it as 'background' - or to assume that everybody likes to listen the same thing - are just abominations.

In reply to Robert Durran:

It was sunny. There was a comp on. How on Earth did you come to the conclusion Ratho would be the optimum venue for the day?

In reply to Robert Durran:

It's all good practice for windy sea cliff climbing when you can't see your partner. Belay blindfolded for the full effect. 

In reply to C Rettiw:

Thank you. This is the same point I tried to make (in less detail) further up and I got downvoted. I really don't know why. You've set it out well.

This isn't about my personal situation, but since folk don't seem to get it - if you have noise sensitivity then loud music isn't just an irritant, it feels like being aurally waterboarded and is completely overwhelming. Mine comes from a freak head injury last year, but I understand this is similar for those with some neurodivergent conditions. Add in that indoor climbing is often the most accessible way of climbing if you have additional health needs (for me it's helpful for rehabilitating myself back into gentle movement and coordination, full stop) and it's a crying shame if you can't do that just because of music volume.

​​Ear plugs don't really work well - I don't trust them to stay in and I can't then communicate with other people around me (plus they're quite disorienting).

I like the idea of quiet hours, though they're not much use for me personally if they're in the day (as these things can be). 

As that person who is severely affected by loud noise I really don't want to have to keep going up to the staff and and asking. Frankly it feels awkward in what is already a stressful experience. It would be a lot better if they could have some general awareness from the off. 

I'm not talking about type of music (my dislike for technoey things aside) - I'm predominantly talking about volume (though I don't think playing the Lark Ascending loudly would affect me in quite the same way..). Some places do this well (AW); others (eg the Foundry when I was there last year, though to their credit I didn't notice this when they had Climbing for All sessions on; and sadly the Depot last night) crank it up horribly loud.

Just turn it down. That's it.

If a bit of kindness helps others, why not do it? 

In reply to JLS:

Because my personal circumstances for the time being as a carer mean that I have to make the most of quick morning escapes when I can get them and the east coast has actually been enveloped in drizzly haar the last four days while the west coast had been glorious resulting in a certain level of stir-craziness*.

Don't worry, in normal circumstances I would undoubtedly have been in the north west. Hopefully more normal service will be resumed in a few months' time🙂.

*Which might explain some of my grumpiness.....

Edit: Anyway I am cheered by seeing that the "likes" for my OP have narrowly beaten my "dislikes" to fifty. I always think that a close and high scoring contest is a sign of a well judged post.

In reply to Alkis:

It was objectively definitely a throbbing noise (by the time it had been amplified and distorted anyway). I shall concede that the "dreadful" bit is subjective.

In reply to pencilled in:

I suspect that most of the competitors on Saturday were in to Justin Bieber (or whoever this decade's equivalent is).

In reply to Robert Durran:

Oh come on. There was a completion on, they had a DJ and music, there were young people enjoying themselves and it put you off a bit. Not the end of the world, barely worth a post it’s a one off.

You’re just a person at a wall whose visit happened to coincide with something they didn’t want to hear. Your wants aren’t more important than the crowd of people who are enjoying themselves.  Sh!t happens.  

Same as it does to me when I walk in to my local for a quiet pint and realise its karaoke night!

 

In reply to Robert Durran:

ok boomer, perhaps golf?

In reply to Robert Durran:

The big questions for me are:

- what music would you go for instead? 
- where exactly would you like your DJ booth positioned at the next Ratho comp?

In reply to Iamgregp:

If it was your "dislike" that brought things back to an exciting 51-51, then thanks.

In reply to Robert Durran:

The music as captured by the stream that anyone in this thread can watch and that I linked to earlier is not objectively "noise". You don't like it, and I don't like it either, I find that kind of poppy housey top-10 mainstream stuff absolute w***. That does not *objectively* make it noise, end of story. I cannot take you seriously when you seem literally unable to comprehend what the word objectively means.

You can argue that it was too loud. You can argue that they shouldn't have music. Absolutely no problem with those arguments. You cannot use the word objectively to label stuff that is actually really rather musical to be noise. Either you are being deliberately obtuse or you are being exceptionally silly for someone of your intelligence and education level, and I can't argue with silly, it's like arguing with a 14-year-old metalhead about what is music and what isn't. I'm out.

In reply to Robert Durran:

No I’ve not voted on the main event yet.

I did dislike your “if the climbing can’t get the crowd excited enough on its own” one. That’s objectively nonsense.

“Well if the Rolling Stones can’t get the crowd excited enough without using all these lights and confetti cannons then clearly they’re not very good”

In reply to Iamgregp:

Stop over exaggerating things. If the Stones did this the fans would fill their incontinence pants or fall off their Zimmer frames.

In reply to Iamgregp:

If true, that there is a perceived need or desire for DJ style entertainment throughout a competition seems a pretty sad state of affairs to me. And I'd feel exactly the same if they started playing Vivaldi to gee up the crowd during end changes at Wimbledon. And as for those personalised jingles when a player scores a try in rugby.....

In reply to Alkis:> The music as captured by the stream that anyone in this thread can watch and that I linked to earlier is not objectively "noise". 

Would you prefer "throbbing sound" then.

In reply to Alkis:

Yeah, as someone who sometimes listens to _actual_ throbbing noise for fun, that aint it!

In reply to Robert Durran:

What’s sad about people wanting to hear a bit of music whilst they’re enjoying watching a climbing comp?  It’s not vital, but it’s all part of a fun experience.

I don’t think that’s sad at all, it’s quite happy.

In fact come to think, I’m struggling to think of any live sporting event which doesn’t have music as part of the experience.  Maybe horse racing and test cricket?

Even the indoor bowls has a fella come on and whip up the crowd with a song or two and a couple of gags.  

In reply to Iamgregp:

Because it it pretty much an admittance that the sport cannot stand on its own feet as a spectacle and for atmosphere.

Well horse racing only exists because of the betting industry and, yes, test cricket is a dignified and high end game.

Which suggests it is really struggling as a spectacle. A sorry thing.

It just seems a shame because competition lead climbing seems a pretty good spectator sport to me without the incessant throb in the background let alone in one's face.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Nonsense. Playing a bit of music and and creating a fun atmosphere absolutely isn’t an admittance that the sport can’t stand on its own without it. Literally nobody thinks that, I’m not sure even you do?  It’s just adding a bit of atmosphere to an occasion which would be joyful enough on it’s own.

Y’know, like when you put some music on when you have people over. Or do you not do that as you’re worried your guests will feel you’re admitting the occasion can’t stand on its own two feet without it?!

Would any of the spectators have not turned up if they found out the DJ wasn’t going to be there? 

You’re over thinking this. It’s just a bit of fun. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'd have thought an "incessant throb ... in one's face" would make climbing comps very much more of spectacle!

In reply to DenzelLN:

Why? I absolutely love climbing!

In reply to Iamgregp:

I'd rarely do it and I certainly wouldn't unless all were ok with the choice of music and it didn't drown out intelligent conversation.

Probably not. In which case no need for the DJ to pull them in.

No, I think it is symptomatic of a feeling that everything these days has to be accompanied by music. Probably a result of a phone and headphone culture where people can't just be in their own company without some sort of soundtrack. It's mostly not needed - just pointless background noise which mostly adds nothing and probably inhibits genuine human interaction and togetherness.

I've nothing at all against music, but there is a time and a place for it especially when loud.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Im not going to touch this topic with a barge pole, so instead here is a maths question for you - you have 57 each of likes and dislikes whilst I’m posting.  

Assuming the population has a 50/50 ratio of liking to disliking your post, what’re the odds a sample of 114 people hits exactly 50/50?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Im not going to touch this topic with a barge pole, so instead here is a maths question for you - you have 57 each of likes and dislikes whilst I’m posting.  

Assuming the population has a 50/50 ratio of liking to disliking your post, what’re the odds a sample of 114 people hits exactly 50/50?

In reply to wintertree:

114C57/2^114 = 0.0746

In reply to Robert Durran:

It's all about taste and preference isn't it.

The music at my local wall usually does nothing for me, and drowns the music in my head. I really want to climb with JS Bach; I have thought of asking the staff if I could have my choice of music for ten minutes on my birthday, but am not brave enough to ask.

In reply to BusyLizzie:

That is largely true of wall music generally, but it seems that at these competitions it is also the fact that it is being played at a volume over the general hubbub such that, pretty much whatever the genre (apparently) all you get is this sort of generic throbbing noise.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I think music at sports and social events predates mobile phones by just a tiny weeny bit. The Ancient Greeks were pretty keen on having music at their Olympic Games.

In reply to Stuart Williams:

Robertiou Duranossos - "I visited the Olympiad but was dismayed by the constant throbbing of the lyres and tympani. Sparta could have been invading but we wouldn't have heard it over the dismal din"

In reply to mik82:

I think all those wildly flapping dangly bits would have been far more offputting given that they all competed in the buff?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Ah I see, so what should have happened is that the dj should have checked with the whole crowd, and non involved casual observers suck as yourself, as to what their preference for artist/genre is, then played music at a volume quiet enough for them to have an in depth conversation. Which none of them are really having as they’re there to watch a climbing comp. That wouldn’t have been weird at all. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

That’s to do with the physics of how sound waves travel. Lower frequencies pass through solid objects like people and wall more easily than higher ones. All the people and obstacles between you and the speakers acts like a low pass filter meaning all the higher frequency stuff (snares, hi hats, lead lines, vocals etc) is lost leaving you with just the lower end stuff. Generally the kick drum in most 4/4 dance music,

Sometimes the bassline, but then it’s “dipped” so it doesn’t occupy the same frequency range as the kick drum on the beat so what you’ll hear is a throbbing noise.

Get right up close to the speaker and you’ll hear all those crispy snares.

In reply to Iamgregp:

For some maybe, but probably not for all. The audience doesn't have a choice. You cannot say how many are enjoying it and how many are merely tolerating it in order to watch the climbing, which what they are there for. And you cannot say how many have stayed away because they find the music intolerable, whether for health reasons or simply personal taste.

In reply to Stuart Williams:

They were also pretty keen on slavery. Does that mean we should reincorporate it into our sporting events?

In reply to Iamgregp:

Precisely.

Thanks for the advice. I'll remember to do that next time there is a comp at Ratho.

In reply to Howard J:

Oh come on, we’re getting into the realms of “we shouldn’t have loud busy events as some people may want to attend who don’t like loud busy events”.

Not everything can cater to the quiet sitting down crowd. nor should it.  Given this is a climbing competition featuring young competitors and spectators, I think a loud, busy, energetic atmosphere aided by a bit of music is entirely apt.

If that’s not your cup of tea, behave like a priest would when it comes to strip clubs, just don’t go. 

In reply to BusyLizzie:

Just ask - you may get a very pleasant surprise.

In reply to Iamgregp:

Confirmation bias. The spectators are young because the head-banging atmosphere is off-putting to many older but climbing-interested people. The 'music' (rather than the climbing) forces the audience demographic.

You're missing the point: The music is not a necessary part of the climbing, it's just an unconnected 'extra'. A priest passing up on the chance of seeing what goes on in a strip club is probably not doing so based on the music there.

I guess the underlying point is that climbing competitions - as with many other competitions and pro sports - is really more about entertaining a paying audience (by any means whatsoever) that about the 'competition'. The competition is just the means to an commercial end.

In reply to Marek:

That’s not what confirmation bias is, but I see your point. The people who are there are there as they can tolerate the type of event it is, those who can’t aren’t there.  So it looks like everyone who likes climbing comps likes that kind of event, whereas in actual fact some don’t.

Ok, gotcha. But you can’t please everybody, so you just have to appeal to the broadest section of people who may want to attend.

Which is what they’ve done - there been countless surveys done on here and by the BMC that show that most older climbers don’t give a monkeys about comps, and don’t want to attend them. 

Not sure then why organisers would tailor events to their taste?

Nobody has divine right to attend a climbing comp, if you don’t like how they’re run the I guess that’s just tough.

Nonsense convo anyway, Robert didn’t even go there to watch the comp, yet he’s still putting his oar in about how it should be run.

Boomers man…

In reply to Marek:

That may be true of some professional sports but I'm pretty sure nobody was paying to watch the competition at Ratho last weekend. I suppose blaring out the throbbing noise might just be copying competitions where people might be paying to watch though. I'm not sure whether it is a bottom up or top down phenomenon.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Your posts invariably make my day. Thank you.

In reply to Iamgregp:

Or maybe it is just that older organisers patronisingly assume that kids like rubbish music and don't care whether it gets mangled by the setting and amplfication into awful throbbing noise.

It was held in a space for which I have paid my membership for access. Should I should ask for a refund for days when there is a comp on then? Possibly, but, as I said I am ok with accepting the comps come with being lucky enough to have the country's best wall as my local wall and with it being big enough for the main lead wall not to be needed for the comps (and regularly having an almost deserted comp wall to train on if I want normally). So I'm not really complaining. Just wondering why everyone there has to have the pulsing butchered music inflicted on them. I'd put money on there being more relief than disappointment if they just switched it off.

In reply to Robert Durran:

It means you can’t sensibly blame a “phone and headphone culture” for slavery any more than you can music at sports events. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

Interesting theory, but I don’t think the organisers would have told the DJ what to play though?  And I reckon the DJ would have watched to see what kind of thing got the crowd going and played more things in that vein because that’s what DJs do, and that why you hire one instead of just slapping on a prerecorded mix.

Fair question re your membership fee, probably best answered by looking in the t&c’s you signed. If not I’m sure they’ll refund you the equivalence of a days’ membership. Would rather play into some terribly dated national stereotypes about Scotsmen and money but there we are…

Interesting theory about switching it off. Tell you what, if you’re really believe you’re right on this why don’t you walk over to the decks next time and pull the plug?  Let’s see how the crowd react to you doing that. Just let me grab some popcorn first!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Surely you mean '"Music" at "climbing" competitions.'

In reply to Iamgregp:

I agree that audiences for climbing competitions are likely to be younger, as older climbers are less interested in them.  However that isn't helped by actively excluding them by making it unwelcoming to them.

Maybe music does energise the audience, although that possible works best when it arises spontaneously from the audience itself, such as the singing at football or rugby matches. On the other hand, it can be used (intentionally or not) to create a divisive, exclusive sub-culture. Fashion retailers, for example, often use music to attract a certain sort of customer and deter others they don't want. 

The message this is sending (and it would apply equally if they were playing Vivaldi) is that they want this competition to appeal only to a particular tribe, not to everyone.  Whether or not this is deliberate, its effect is to exclude. Is that what we want climbing to be?

There is an additional problem when an event is sharing space with other users and imposing itself on them. This is exacerbated because low sound frequencies travel further, so that often what someone nearby hears is not music but can reasonably (and objectively) be described as "throbbing noise", especially if it is at such a volume that it can conceal a fire alarm. If a venue is going to allow such shared use it should either require the event to be more neighbourly (ie quieter) or expect complaints from other users. Robert should have asked for his money back.

In reply to Robert Durran:

100 posts in and your likes have just crept ahead of dislikes! Perhaps they'll turn the volume down at Ratho when they see the way the wind's blowing?

In reply to Robert Durran:

what's next, the latest reset doesn't have blocs in my favourite style so I'll ask for a refund on this weeks membership because the wall is imposing things on me that aren't my cup of tea?

I'm being mildly facetious I know but it seems like a problem easily solved by going at a different time or a different day. It's impossible to please everyone and a fruitless to try. Consider those who had a great time, would you take that away because you didn't like it? 

I'd wager you love it there most of the time otherwise you wouldn't go. 

In reply to Jackspratt:

Would they have had less of a great time if the music was quieter?

In reply to Lankyman:

70 to 67 is probably not statistically significant (might do some calculations later). Anyway, the lead has been changing pretty regularly. Certainly more exciting stuff than watching a bouldering comp. 

Perhaps they'll turn the volume down at Ratho when they see the way the wind's blowing?

The volume is not normally a problem at Ratho and they play quite varied music, so I've no complaints generally. Just the excruciating comp throb.

In reply to Lankyman:

This discussion appears to be the 12-inch version rather than the 7-inch.

In reply to Howard J:

Nobody is being excluded here. If someone chooses not to attend an event as some of the things that are happening at said event are not to their taste, they’re just choosing not to attend. That’s not the same thing as being excluded.

Like I said we can’t make everything appeal to everyone, nor non exlusional (is that a word?) to some users so we just have to make things apt for the core market and try please as many as we can. 

I don’t think that’s a terrible philosophy to organise things such as this.

If it really bothered Robert that much (not sure it did but, like me, he likes a moan and they’re good fun threads anyway!) he could have just turned round and not gone in when he saw the comp was on and not paid?

In reply to Iamgregp:

Setting aside the brain-wobbling throb I had a pretty good session. I pay monthly membership so had nothing to lose and I had no other climbing options anyway.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yeah I figured that you weren’t really that put out by it all, after all you did label it as ***grumpy post*** so obviously the tongue is in the cheek just a little!

In reply to Iamgregp:

That depends on the event. If it's, say, a music festival I can decide whether the music is likely to be to my taste and make a choice based on that. However here the purpose of the event is the climbing. If I decide not to go to a climbing competition because I don't like competitions, that's my choice. If I like competitions, but I decide not to go because the event is being organised in a way which makes me feel unwelcome because I'm not part of that tribe, then I'm being excluded. 

So who is the core market? People who watch climbing competitions, or just a subset who also enjoy a particular type of music?

In reply to Howard J:

There’s a key word in there that you use several times: decide.

The decision is yours, therefore you are not being excluded. You would be excluded if you wanted go but were denied entry.  

I’ve no idea of whom the organisers consider their core market, but every event of this type I’ve ever gone to has been loud and packed to the rafters with young people, this format seems to be working to me? If it ain’t broke why fix it?

In reply to Iamgregp

Most competitions seem to be kids' comps but most kids seem to come with parents and/or coaches so I actually think there is usually a fairly big range of age groups present.

In reply to Iamgregp:

Discouraged then, if you prefer, but the effect is the same. 

Perhaps these events are a success on their own terms and the pool of spectators they are seeking to attract is sufficiently large to sustain them. However don't be surprised if the majority of climbers remain indifferent or even hostile towards competition climbing, or if they decide that competitions present too much of a financial risk to the BMC.

In reply to Robert Durran:

One of the classic ‘OK Boomer’ threads, contributed in fine style by the OP. They were building the wall and testing the sound system for the comp in Chamonix a few weeks ago, playing pretty commercial poppy big beat euro house. It was so cheesy I stopped just to soak it in. Not my thing but my guess is that the organisers play what ‘works’ to rev up the athletes and crowd?

I mostly don’t notice music at the wall, but last Saturday, Lancaster wall was playing some drum and bass and very old school breakbeats which I thought worked really well. However, we’re never going to get our favourite genre playing at the wall all the time what with everyone having different tastes. I do recommend Sam’s mixtape of banging house at The Climbingworks if it’s ever playing.

My favourite music plays at the wall in my garage which is a mix of (mainly) Slayer/Megadeth/Tool/Pat Metheney mixed in with Bach and Vaughan Williams which you don’t tend to get at commercial walls….

In reply to Howard J:

I think the majority of climbers, certainly in this country, climb mostly indoors and are Milennials/Gen Z, which probably explains the style and success of the events. However even this jaded old Gen X/Boomer gets into the swing of things for the comps.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

I am actually very tolerant of wall music generally; some I like and some I don't particularly like and but I am rarely at all bothered about it and, as I said, the only time I have ever complained about the music in 20 years of frequenting Ratho was about awful jingly Christmas crap. As long as it is not so loud as to make communication tricky I don't have a problem with anything much.

It now seems that what I was hearing during last weekend's comp could have been anything from Mozart or Mahler to Megadeth or Madness, but just transformed into a ghastly throbbing din by being played far too loud and with unfortunate acoustics. 

Whatever the actual original genre, the end resulting noise assaulting one's ears was, I think, by any reasonable standards unacceptable.

In reply to Howard J:

Discouraged is a better term yes.

Given that the overwhelming majority of users on this site, and contributors to this thread (including me) are white, straight, cis, able bodied men so are therefore are the least discriminated or excluded cohort in society we should avoid using terms like ‘discriminated’ or ‘excluded’ in a conversation about not wanting to go to a leisure event as we don’t like the music.

Takes the mick out of people who face real discrimination and exclusion.

I’m aware of the hostility towards competition climbing by many BMC members, and I’ve absolutely no doubt that changing the music policy at comps would not make not a jot of difference.  

In reply to :

In general I have found music being played over speakers at ANY sporting activity to be at far too loud a volume.

It seems that those responsible for the  background (??) music, who are also responsible for the announcing/commentating are more interested in their voices and choice of music being at the fore, and the sporting activity in question is merely a backdrop.

Indeed, at many of the Meetings at which  I have officiated which did have background music, the Officials have not been able to do their job properly due to Competitors and other Officials not being able to hear what's being said. This has frequently led to the Competition being halted until someone has managed to contact whoever has the microphone and volume control and got them to stop - rather difficult as they are usually quite a distance away and also completely unable to hear the phone ringing or radio beeping due to the din they're responsible for.

Not only the Officials/Competitors are affected by overly loud music; the spectators will want to talk to each other as well, if only to discuss the merits (or otherwise) of a particular Competitor (or even an Officiating decision). With overly loud music such discussions can only be done by shouting, so that means the spectators could end up shouting at full voice just to be heard, which makes the din even worse for those trying to listen to another conversation a few feet away.

People do not go to a sporting event (of any type) to listen to music (again of any type) - they go there to watch/compete in/support the sporting activity in question. Music should therefore be a supporting asset, used to fill in gaps and give an ambience, it is not the prime reason for anyone being there - except of course for the person who switches it on and turns up the volume to 11.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I’ve been following this thread with great interest. I competed regularly for over 20 years since the early 90s and I’m so relieved I wasn’t subjected to the style of music they seem to play at comps these days. There would generally be the standard mix of background music that most walls still play today, and at a quiet volume. When I competed at my local wall the staff would also put on a track of my choosing when I was climbing.

When I train at home I always have background music playing and don’t generally mind music at the climbing wall as long as it’s not too loud (especially on a leading wall where loud music really hampers communication with your belayer). However, I really can’t cope with the style of music that is played at comps, it really affects me in a negative way. I know Sam for example, has a reputation for some banging tunes but I find it unbearable. I enjoy watching comps online but I usually watch them with the sound off for this reason. I certainly wouldn’t attend a live event now and although I could compete in the vets category the choice of music is one of the main reasons that I don’t.

It would be interesting to actually ask competitors, their parents/coaches and other audience members how they feel about the background music. Does it help their performance, do they even notice it (as often when you’re so focused you’re not aware of background noise), do they feel a need for it? Same with the spectators. Does it add to their enjoyment or do they just put up with it? I personally find the resident DJ and the night club vibe, (where it’s dark and the climbers are in a spotlight) all a bit weird. However, I do concede that I’m rather old school and times are changing as climbing becomes more mainstream.

In reply to fred99:

So there really is a sort of DJ arrangement? I had assumed that there was announcer (however annoying), and that the organisers just bunged a tape (or whatever the modern equivalent is) on.

Yes, that makes sense. A vicious spiral of noise like you get in pubs.

This just seems so obvious, that it is surprising it even needs to be said.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I have had it suggested to me that if they wanted to cut the costs of holding competitions in the UK the first thing to do is sack the DJ....

In reply to Andy Say:

So is the BMC bankrupting itself spending all our money on DJ's?

In reply to Andy Say:

Panic on the walls of Ratho?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I did a quick search for "Edinburgh International Climbing Arena" on the PRS list of premises with a licence to play music in public and got no results.

In reply to Howard J:

Not to get Robert's hopes up but they've one to play at work.

In reply to Robert Durran:

The strange thing is that you don't get this in other countries*, or at least not in the same quantities. I have never heard it at a climbing wall, but my heart goes out to those shop employees who must endure it in Britain starting from about the end of September sometimes.

* USA: One autumn there. Didn't hear Christmas music in shops until after Thanksgiving.
France: One year. Don't remember Christmas music in shops, although don't take this statement too generally - maybe I just didn't visit the right ones.
Germany: Many years. You get some in supermarkets etc., but only during Advent. And certainly never in climbing walls.

In reply to Robert Durran:

The gramophone?

In reply to fred99:

This is known in mobile telephony as the "party effect".

In reply to Robert Durran:

"Throbbing Racket" maybe the wrong era/genre but what a great name that'd be for a punk band!

Maybe this is the sort of music that is civilised and genteel with no disturbing repetitive beats, they should consider, artists like these

https://holiday.saga.co.uk/holidays/holiday-types/special-interest/music

(Although I'm physically old enough to qualify for booking a SAGA holiday, mentally I'm very much not their audience and if their advertising came my way I'd gently encourage them to "fk right off")

In reply to CantClimbTom:

I love those repetitive beats! Reputedly the only time that an act of parliament has attempted to describe a genre of music (the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994):

"includes sounds wholly or predominantly characterised by the emission of a succession of repetitive beats"

In reply to Robert Durran:

Had a musical experiance at Horseshoe Quarry a few years back. We turned up one day when there was a full blown New age Travellers Rave party on the go. Apparently this had been going for three days solid. Made climbing to the loud thump of the monotaneous bass interesting in the natural amphitheatre the quarry gives. Unfortunately the amount of dog shit everywhere spoilt the experience.

Always wondered if the BMC who now own the quarry could arrange a similar thing now and again, bit like the Wilton Fest. (No dogs allowed tho)

Al

In reply to alex_th:

Yes and what constituted a "repetitive beat" was the decision of an all too often elderly judge, who probably finds Vivaldi "bracing" so anything really could've been caught by that vague term 

In reply to Robert Durran:

What, like your favourite Coldplay or Queen's Greatest Hits?

In reply to CantClimbTom:

As I said (way back in this thread) it all comes down to taste. But here’s a fun website for comparing pieces of music (just about anything under the sun). Eg:

Two pieces, using examples mentioned on this thread, both transcribed as piano scores for easy comparison:

Megadeath: https://musescore.com/user/19027351/scores/4791536

Vivaldi: https://musescore.com/user/38606/scores/3476921

You have to click the arrow top left to hear the piece (synthetically created without any expression, i.e. dynamics, variation in tempo etc., so admittedly cruel.)

I know which I prefer for attractiveness, subtlety, and memorableness. But each to their own. 

In reply to CantClimbTom:

In 1990 or 1991 there was an abomination - and I say this as a lover of "sounds wholly or predominantly characterised by the emission of a succession of repetitive beats" - called the 4 Seasons EP (possibly on Dutch Go Bang! records), which put those well-known melodies into a brutal Euro-techno setting. I unfortunately even heard this out at least once. Thankfully Google finds no trace of it now, and I think if I were Google then I too would censor requests for information about it.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Apologies to admit ignorance, but I really can't make much sense of piano notation. Drum notation on the other hand is easy to follow (although interesting drumming has much ghost notes and unwritten stuff, you sort of need to know is there although not written).

Now if you can compare the drum notation of Vivaldi and Megadeath (although they're not that interesting to me drum wise), then you'd be talking!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

First of all, they are a thrash metal band, there are only four instruments, but second of all, you’ve explicitly picked one of the most commercial and simple Megadeth tracks in existence, it’s meant to be an easy to consume anthem. That’s like judging the complexity of Queen’s music based on Another One Bites The Dust. That said, their vocals are, ahem… let’s call them an acquired taste! 😛

In reply to Ian Jones:

Either would be great at the wall as far as I am concerned.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

When my nephew was going though a teenage phase of long hair, black eye shadow and few words but much guitar improvisation, I asked him who his main musical influences were. Without hesitation he answered J.S.Bach and Metallica and that his main genre was "melodic metal". Twelve years later he has a music degree and a career composing film and television music.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Fascinating. I think the wider one’s tastes are in music the better. Music is music.

What a brilliantly exciting career your nephew's embarked on.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Although Black Sabbath are generally credited with inventing ‘Heavy Metal, Doom, Sludge etc.’ genres, a quick listen to Bach’s Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor, or a dive into 48 Preludes and Fugues suggest those genres were invented sometime between 1685 and 1750

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

They did develop and popularise, but inventing it is over egging the pudding, for example a favourite of mine, The Warning, (their first album) is a cover. I actually love the original just as much as Sabbath's cover, both are brilliant 

https://youtu.be/wwlcq8_EuEc?si=2wqMUwwuddbLY4Fc

In reply to CantClimbTom:

I think there's one track on the first album (title track) which is the starting point for Metal, the rest is a bit bluesy. Paranoid is much more like it but not the finished article. However Master of Reality is home to Into the Void, Vol 4 introduces progressive metal and Sabbath Bloody Sabbath introduces thrash (according to Dave Mustaine).

I was seeing Sabbath, Uriah Heap, Purple regularly in the '70s up to Sabbath/Van Halen tour in '78. However, I do admit that seeing Judas Priest at Bingley Hall in '75 was a totally different kind of metal.

In reply to Paul_in_Cumbria

Vol 4 was the first CD album I ever bought, and before that Paranoid was the first tape album I ever bought

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Whilst Bach, and other composers, certainly delved into darker, louder more leaden sounding composition I think it’s bit of a leap to call any of those Heavy Metal or any of the other genres you mentioned.

Sure, they share some key features, but other vital ones are absent. 

Certainly they influenced later musicians, but tats not the same as being inventors of the genre. Not in my eyes anyway.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I agree with you, Euphoric Trance is the only music that should be allowed at climbing walls. 

In reply to Andrew Wells:

Eh? I don't even know what euphoric trance sounds like.

In reply to Andrew Wells:

Nah. Deep dark hypnotic techno. Fans of it will get into the zone and float up routes. The uninitiated will rage quit. Win-win really.

🤣

In reply to Alkis:

In Track & Field Athletics they have competitions purely for High Jump.

In these competitions they have music specifically for the competitors.

When each competitor takes their turn to jump, music that that competitor has chosen themselves is played (and at required volume). Then the music is changed for the next person.

This type of arrangement is far better than having some DJ inflicting their choice of music on everybody, no matter what their likes (and dislikes) happen to be.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Don't worry you'd hate it!

I love EDM of all kinds anyway, glad it's on at walls and not Coldplay of all things. Can't exactly pull hard to "Yellow" can you

In reply to Andrew Wells:

Am I imagining this - or was the verb 'jaunir' at one time used by French climbers to mean 'redpoint'?

Edit. Ah - this from Wiki:

"Au milieu des années 1960, l'alpiniste Claudio Barbier développe l'escalade libre en Belgique: il décide de peindre en jaune, sur les falaises belges, les pitons qu'il n'est pas nécessaire pour lui d'utiliser pour parcourir la voie. Dès lors, on parle de « jaunissement » d'une voie et réussir un passage « en jaune » signifie le réussir en escalade libre."

In reply to Robert Durran:

Since my 20's I've preferred 'the atmosphere of the climbing wall' as background noise, rather than music, but what can one do?

It potentially helps with communication, if there's no background music...

In reply to Robert Durran:

Absolutely agree, trying to compete with noise is difficult and I wear ear plugs while spectating and look forward to the B categories who climb in silence. 
I have no issue with crowd support and noise, though some struggle, but fail to understand why music at loud volumes is required and is not considered as a possible distraction to competitors.

And yes it a horrible thumping base, but I am old!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I’d always assumed it was to stop people/coaches from shouting information/beta to the climber

In reply to Robert Durran:

They should play this one: https://youtu.be/oehXqEoAIbM?feature=shared

Not only is it a lyrical and musical masterpiece but it also provides a practical rationale for why we should strive to get good a climbing.

Couldn't help myself after mention on another thread about FA summits being done by shepherds looking for lost animals. One of the funniest vids I've seen since the doughnut dangling!

In reply to Holdtickler:

I feel this would be the best soundtrack for all competitions:

https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ?si=HQTzQ6q7RwKSqK01

In reply to Robert Durran:

What has happened to Greg. Is it past his bed time?

In reply to Brass Nipples:

Who's Greg?

Anyway, the exciting race to 100 between likes and dislikes might be back on.......