UKC

A campaign to prevent visitors climbing on wet rock in the popular bouldering hotspot of Fontainebleau, France has been shared on social media following incidents of poor practice over the busy Easter period. UKC has also received reports of people climbing on the delicate sandstone in the rain or while the rock is still damp. 

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It's quite unpleasant to climb on wet sandstone anyway and I can imagine some of the font top-outs go from sketchy to properly dangerous when wet. Also agree there is absolutely no possible reason not to have wiped every grain of sand off shoes before starting up a problem. But does it really take 2 days to dry out after rain?! I've generally found the rock "seems" dry after a few hours, less in the areas more exposed to the wind. Have I been damaging it all these years?

Looking at the rainfall history for Fontainebleau for 2023, it suggests that the only day anyone should have climbed all of last spring was 4th & 5th May. Every other day had at least one light shower in the preceding 2 days...

In reply to TomCooksey:

It’s certainly the case on southern sandstone that the rock absorbs rain like a sponge. The outer layer can dry in a breeze but underneath is very weak due to it being wet…

In reply to UKC News:

Massive congrats to those people trying to protect the rock for future generations. We have a lot of vulnerable sandstones here in the NW. It's better to be cautious than cavalier, the rock is finite and doesn't grow back.

Re: dry days, one of my favourite problems at Helsby lost a critical hold. I know the guy that did it - not an idiot - and he came clean and was mortified. The rock *looked* dry, it was a sunny day even ...but just the skin was dry.

In reply to UKC News:

This is a good article, as well as the one linked in the intro:

https://bettybeta.com/articles/how-to-tell-if-a-hold-is-wet

And the 'boolder' app has a useful list of 'quick drying sectors'.

There seems to be a bit of a mob mentality in font when it's damp. Loads of people turn up to a 'quick drying crag' to have a look, which is fair enough, but as soon as one group start climbing others will quickly follow suit rather than using their own judgement. 

In reply to UKC News:

You just have to look at what's going on in Northumberland right now to realise that people don't care about the rock. They are climbing on fragile sandstone crags that are literally dripping wet. If they've travelled to climb, they're going to climb no matter what. They don't care about the damage they cause. It's absolutely shocking.

In reply to Mark Savage: Dreadful. A look at Spittal, as an example, and folk even have comments in their logbooks with things like it was too damp for the lead today so just toproped🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️

In reply to eggburt1952:

The fragility of wet sandstone (and gritstone) is an important point to communicate to preserve the rock for everyone.

Let's not confuse that important message by conflating it with a discussion about the aesthetics of doing bouldering circuits versus projecting problems or using mats or whatever.

Personally, I've both enjoyed circuit-style bouldering and projecting. I was a bouldering mat early-adopter  30years ago! Let's just all work towards ensuring everyone can enjoy themselves in whatever way they choose.

I take it from that downvote that you didn’t. :-P

Edit: More seriously, the most trashed climbs I have ever seen in Font have been trashed from poff, and has generally been on the routes that are on the circuits. Yes, traffic will eventually result in erosion of popular harder climbs, but to claim that things are trashed because of people, shock horror, bouldering in a bouldering area, where people have been traditionally using methods that are *proven* to damage the rock is an interesting take. Even more interesting that you have the audacity of calling people you don’t know “buffoons”.

In reply to Mark Savage:

Honestly the locals are just as guilty too

In reply to Alkis:

It's a shame in a way that eggburt1952's post was removed. It's ludicrous to claim bleausards just climb circuits and don't project, nor ever climb within a day of rain, and the problem is about visiting 'buffoon' Brits. Yet you and I both visited recently so we know how much bad practice was going on (especially Easter weekend). Despite this, many people were behaving ethically and sunny problems with dry harder quartzy rock, no seeps, and with no liklihood of snappy holds were possible to find.

What's clearly needed for the inexperienced is education but not everyone climbing wet rock over Easter was inexperienced.

As good as the message is in the bettybeta video linked above, it clearly shows an unrepresentative significantly damaged big foothold,  that in soft sanstone probably shouldn't ever be used (such holds, where the harder surface has gone, often remain sandy and brushing, even when dry, makes things worse). I'd like to see more pictures of snapped finger jugs to get the message over to those operating in the 6 and above category. It's not just rain that wets rock either: heavy dew happened on a few mornings in the last two weeks and there was even the odd fog patch at the end of last week. Enjoy the forest and make a slower start to the day!

I have some mixed feelings about pof as it is very much part of the local tradition and no-one can deny it helps foot friction on slopers. However, in a mix with chalk it can generate horrible slippery foot holds even on the easiest circuits. Most climbers I see should use less chalk, but chalk and pof use is often incompatible.

Another very big problem on view on dry rock, in my view, is failure to clean feet. It's certainly not helped by better climbers doing easier circuits in ridged trainers that are near impossible to keep clean. Overly vigorous brushing is also damaging some popular problems. 

As Nial always said: be a good ninja.

In reply to Offwidth:

I always chuckle when the traditionalists try to blame chalk for the polished starting footholds that have been ruined and turned black by pof. Yes, of course people are chalking the foothold 6 inches of the ground... No, couldn't possibly be pof and carelessness that's turned it black and shiny. Not even a bit strange that it has a completely different effect to the obviously chalked holds at hand height...

In reply to Offwidth:

No censorship on UKC then …..how pathetic

In reply to eggburt1952:

This site has clear moderation rules which you breached and sensible offline communication as to why they moderated. You don't help yourself in making some fair ethical points by also making daft generalised accusations.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

It can also be both. The most worrying 'laquered' polished holds I've seen in Font were often chalked as well: being in really scary high positions on orange and yellow circuit friction slabs. Poor footwork and dirty shoes also clearly doesn't help.

You still see locals using pof on lowest grade circuits... most recently in my experience (late last week) at Long Rocher.

In reply to Offwidth:

Yeah, for sure it can be both. But I'm happy to bet that with all those blackened holds you see within 12" of the ground it's not both.

In reply to Mark Savage:

One user seems to perpetually climb on damp sandstone in the Cheshire sandstone area give the number of comments they make about the rock being wet. If only a few others are regularly doing this too on Northumberland and Southern sandstone it's not surprising stuff is getting damaged 

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Even there it's possible... there are growing trends of ignorant climbers chalking footholds outdoors. Plus 'donkey ticks' to mark the best friction points have long been in use. The most worrying polished holds are more brown and higher up and clearly mix chalk and pof.

The question is: how do we best persuade locals, based on a hundred year tradition, to change? Also,  in some areas pine resin just drips on boulders and gets on feet unless you clean it off.

In reply to Offwidth:

I don't think you can realistically claim either of those is the reason that the starting footholds on the first 15 problems of every circuit, or first 25 at the popular areas, at red difficulty or below are black and shiny. It's pof. Let's not entertain dripping pine resin or a handful of newbies with chalk. It's the pof doing that, and the local tradition is to put your fingers in your ears and say "la la la it's the chalk la la la pof is good"

edit: Top tip: Try circuits in reverse order. It's a different experience. 

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Plenty of Helmets climbing on Peak Grit when it's wet....

reply to Offwidth

just how is the recounting of an eye witness occurrence, a daft generalised accusation, I suggest you could consult a thesaurus. Sorry but anyone who climbed there that day is either and idiot or a Buffon , the truth hurts sometimes .

interesting that you also deleted the post that praised my comments ( no breach of community rules in that one ) … but hey let’s not upset the PC folks  eh they probably need a big soft mat to lay down on should  they exposed to such dangerous reality🤣

In reply to eggburt1952:

I deleted nothing, I'm nothing to do with UKC and didn't report your post; even though I did think of linking a trumpet response made to a similar daft post from Phil.

Locals have been projecting specific hard problems for well over half a century.

I know many brits who have walked into crags with a mat on and walked out again without climbing, because conditions were worse than they expected.

Elephant wouldn't have been my choice that Saturday  but many newer visitors don't know the different area characteristics very well.

Ignorance of the problem of wet rock is not the same as ignoring wet rock when you know it's bad to climb it.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

I only said chalk could be part of the issue in recent years, not that I think its the biggest problem on low footholds.

I don't believe your la la la explanation is a local majority view anymore. You also haven't answered my question on how we persuade old locals who have used it for many decades.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

This goes round and round..... here's Jon making a similar point that pof support wasn't a majority local position by the better local climbers 15 years ago.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/pof-342932?v=1#x5050166

In reply to Offwidth:

I don't have a good answer. Just thought that with all the focus on education and after too long now making taking care of the rock a priority, it could be as good a time as any for the bleausards to hold up their hands, admit they might have been talking shit all this time and maybe think about putting a stop to using furniture polish on footholds, a practice that would result in immediate lynching anywhere else in the world.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

You mean like those further trashing soft UK sandstones by climbing in the wet get lynched? Alternatively like those responsible for big gouges on gritstone  boulders at Cratcliffe etc get lynched?  Cam gouges on Birchen? Snapped rock from cams behind delicate holds? All the old removed belay bolts at Windgather?

Comparisons with the declining use of 'furrniture polish' at Font is a matter of perspective. With traffic growth, wet rock and dirty shoes seem the bigger problems to me (quartz rich holds polish easily without chalk or pof).

In reply to Offwidth:

Totally agree. Whether you are a local or a visitor, whether you climb hard grades or easier grades, each one of us needs to follow good practice. This Easter was really disastrous for the rocks. It rained almost non-stop since the end of last October. The spring was much wetter compared to other years and the rocks were saturated with water, then Easter arrived.

It is so sad to see some holds, which were intact before Easter, lost the hard surface and are now wrecked.

In reply to ianstevens:

I wouldn't say 'just as guilty', but you have a point. Three or four years ago I think I could have confidently rebutted your argument, but now there are so many people who have only climbed indoors, as well as plenty of student groups going out in The County and they just don't know any better. Just last week, I confronted someone at a wet Kyloe-In who absolutely refused to believe me that sandstone is porous. "The guidebook says it's quick drying. If it says that, how can it be wet?" It had been absolutely pouring down an hour earlier.

They carried on climbing.

In reply to Mark Savage:

To be super clear this wasn’t aimed at you! (Which I am sure you didn’t interpret as such anyway). My experience of being a Northumberland “local” (I lived there for 12 months) was around 4 years ago - and I think what you describe was just as prevelant then as it is now - especially in the latter stages of the 2020 lockdowns! This was of course helped by the summer that year being hot and very dry, but it did still rain a bit and people were still seemingly going out. 
 

But for sure I agree it’s generally the people that simply don’t know better - but also the odd person who should with a project under a roof somewhere.