UKC

Tom Ripley shares some tips on how to keep hold of wires, even when they seem like they might be lost forever.

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No mention of the 'wire slide!'.

Slide the wire through the nut, clip the loop at the opposing end of the wire and yank.

I find that works really easily with WC rocks, but with DMM wallnuts, the wire can be much more tricky to push through. Actually find that can happen with WC rocks too easily/inadvertently when trying to place the nut in a fiddly crack. 

Nice article, definitely a tip or two there I hadn't come across. I hope there will be a sequel for cams.

That is a good one, which I have done on occasion. Just not recently as I’d totally forgotten about it. 

Wires that are in a tight crack(!) and sometimes be 'walked out' by pushing each wire up alternately and wiggling it towards the daylight,

Chris

Disappointed, no mention of making a "zinger".

What was your nut swag total after Yosemite? We managed almost a whole set of wires (and most came from one route!).

For anyone interested a zinger is clipping lots of carabiners metal to to metal then clipping the wire and pulling. Works pretty well when stuff won't budge. A funkness device is an even more niche version of the same thing used with a hammer.

No mention of the 'screwgate chain' either...

Surprisingly few on the Nose, just two blue offsets and down one Rock 3. Did you have a hammer Alex?

I have done this on occasion, but to be honest haven’t found it be any more effective than a big whip with a quickdraw. 

I think probably just less chance of catching your knuckles. 

No hammer, just nut key skills. 

Thanks for posting, some good tips.

While folk do use the "big whip" technique, I try to avoid it - it bends the wires where they enter the nut, which you then have to straighten before next use. Eventually leading to frayed strands.

YMMV

Paul

The big whip technique is why people think offsets are more likely to get stuck…

Because of the shape, if you spin an offset by pulling the wire up and out, the wider bit of the nut is rotated back in to the narrower part of the crack. So a ‘big whip’ gets an offset more stuck, not less. 

Offsets are no more likely to get stuck than any other nut, as long as you bear that in mind and push/tap them out from underneath (i.e. in the direction they went in). But obviously we all tend to revert to yanking when we’re trying to take kit out whilst pumping out!

Also, on the super light wires, the big whip really shortens the lifespan of the wire -even more than normal!

I too hate seeing the 'big whip' used on my nuts.  Pisses me off no end and as paul say's, instantly leads to the wires kinking at the base of the nut, which can end up being permanent.  Especially as I don't like straightening them too much (think along the lines of weakening the wires due to 'work hardening' - google it).  This means they are miss shaped when it comes to placing them next time, especially if they need to go in the opposite way round.  grr.

I'm disappointed you put it number one, top of your list. Bum advice, distributed to the masses on UKC as per.  (lets face it, nobody's going to read this far in the comments). 

 I'd rather a second sat on the rope, and reached for a nut key straight away  if they are too boxed to get it out with out ragging it and bending the wires. 

"4. Don't use offsets"

Sorry Tom - you're just wrong on this. My first nuts, bought in I think 1992, were 3 alloy HB Offsets. I've still got one of them - you've probably used it and some point when we've climbed with my rack! - the other original ones got dropped in a Finnish lake by a cack handed beginner, not stuck forever in a crack. I had one big HB Offset, but on cord not wire, that got stuck. If you climbed the Shelf Route (IV 6) in the late 90s you might have recovered it. My second Jim claimed he couldn't get it out, but it was his first winter climb (sorry Jim) and he did say while belaying me in passing blizzards that he was more scared and lonely than he had ever felt in his life, so I'm sceptical about how much effort he really put in to trying to get it out whilst trying as quickly as possible climb up to my belay for some human contact!

My current DMM Offsets are only 14 years old - these ones: https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/climbing/protection/dmm_alloy_offsets-1066 they are still going strong. People who say Offsets get stuck more easily have just not fully accepted the engineering/climbing perfection that is the offset nut.

I'm with Tom and Toby... Offsets tend to seat very well and not get lifted out too easily by the rope - therefore there's nothing quite as comforting to look down at before committing to a hard move - but that doesn't mean they are any less likely to come out the same way they went in.

Unless time is becoming a safety factor, when you're pumped just sit on the rope and take the gear out instead of yanking. We all like the feeling of seconding clean, but it's not your main job as a second.

Another fan of offsets... they are my second set of nuts on mutipitch or limestone.

I also disagree about 'welding in nuts' on hard leads 'as if your life depends on it, as it does'... just place them firmly and extend them more if they might lift or, if especially crucial maybe put in an opposing nut to stop lift. Yanked in nuts are damaging the rock on some popular short UK routes (by the yank, and by the banging around to remove them) and you can't afford the faff time on big routes (especially all day routes in the US).

In some places (especially with storm risk) trying for ages to get a stuck nut out might end up leaving you in trouble...worst case risking your life... at best it will lead to less enjoyment... try hard using your well practiced experience but after a few minutes give up (then maybe find a leader who places gear better, or put down losses to experience). A few pints in Langdale is nowt compared to some costs we incur in going to some nice places.

What else:

If something seems stuck: think first, then think again then try and remove it.

Get less experienced seconds to practice gear removal on ground level cracks.

If you are rich enough, buy two full sets of your main wires... it's nearly always cheaper in the end and they will fit in and be more recognisable as replacements in your rack. Sods law will mean you will need to supplement anyhow.

Big whips are a last resort, as they can damage the wires and rotation can get the wire even more stuck.

If doing anything weird placing a nut,  as a leader (eg slots, twists etc), let your second know as soon as possible, before they risk getting an easily removed wire stuck. Don't wait for the second to ask.

Demote distorted wires to the winter climbing rack, retire damaged wires.

If you're good at retrieving lost wires do your best to clear old crap and consider giving away those abondoned wires in decent nick to hard up beginners.

Stop posting on UKC for someone to return your stuck wire, unless you enjoy people pulling your leg.

Only two sets? 

This seems like pretty strange advice. It’s key that runners don’t come out if you fall on them, especially on short British routes, where the ground is never far away. Also I suspect  you’re definition ‘firm’ and my definition ‘welded’ might not be too dissimilar. I’m only talking about shock loading the wires by pulling down on the racking biner. I think this is key to nut craft, as it lets the nut ‘bite’ Into the rock, but more crucially it gives the leader a feedback loop, allowing them to judge what a good wire feels like. This can be especially helpful with blind placement, or when laybacking. 

Speak for yourself, I’d much rather second a pitch clean than faff about sat on the rope with a nutkey. 
 

I just keep bending them back until the wires start to fray, when I normally replace them. Though I’ve only ever experienced this on Brass and Alloy Offsets, not normal Rocks/Wallnuts. 

I’d also be interested to know by how much straightening kinked wires weakens the wires by. Not much would be my hypothesis. I’ll ask someone at DMM and see if they’ve done any testing. 

Getting a nutkey out often is time consuming. I like to second a pitch as quickly, and as cleanly, as possible so I can do more climbing.

It’s also worth remembering that wires aren’t indestructible, swinging falls can cause fraying, and I’ve lost count of the number of wires I’ve split the heads of tapping them in with an ice axe. That said, I’m not going to stop falling off, and I’d much rather my runners stayed in, particularly in winter when a fall is often likely to be long and unexpected. 

I've climbed with quite a few people who like their trad lead wires 'welded'..... at least once each. I very much know there are differences with how hard people pressure placed gear and if you don't think it's a good idea your leader welded them, why not phrase it as maybe understandable rather than sensible.

Well placed wires simply don't need yanking into placements (and they don't fall out without good reason) and yanking them in hard does lead to them getting stuck way more often and as I said can lead to rock damage. I was also referring to summer rock placements, not winter climbing, where you do need to ensure the wire is in proper contact with rock in an iced crack (often with some axe taps).

I'm trying to visualise ever being strong enough for hard yanking a wire in place when off balance in a layback and unable to see the placement, especially so if it pings.

'Big whip' on a micro-wire within my sight = you're buying me a new micro-wire.

We're in hard times. Preservation of gear >>> preservation of second's 'clean' ascent.

You've been warned Tom

Re the big whip. I do this a lot and encourage others to do so on my gear. It is extremely rare that I need to bend a wire back, as in less than once a year at a guess.

However I would only whip once, not repeatedly, and never with RPs etc. 

Is that partly because you aid a lot though? It seems to me this is an article primarily aimed at lowish to medium experienced trad climbers, and as such,  in my view, has some well intentioned but potentially dubious advice alongside the mainly good, and seems to put a clean seconding ascent above a risk of rock and/or gear damage, with its unusual: "just thinking about reaching for your nut key fills your forearms with lactic acid."; which implies the second is out of their depth on the route. The vast majority of issues I've seen with removing trad placed wires, for a second who is reasonably experienced with their removal, is they are badly placed or have been shock loaded in a fall (or slipped a bit after being 'welded in' by an overly nervous leader, or during a bounce test); there is no shame resting on gear or the rope for removal where a wire is stuck. A 'whip as a first option' risks making an easily removeable nut get stuck and has a potentially needless risk of damaging smaller wires. An exception might be when the leader through unusual route nature (or thoughtlessness) has a runner that leaves the second at risk if they fall trying to remove it.

Bending wires back makes the metallurgist in me wince.

Am I the only one who carries a can of WD40 while seconding routes?

Great article - thanks. 

I like number 6. Leaders put gear in all sorts of ways particularly in deep cracks and it's often best to ask before you start tugging

Nah, much better for the leader to carry the WD40 - a quick spray in the placement before putting the gear in means the gear will never get stuck in the first place, so it should be easier to remove.

A good tip is that you can drill a pair of holes in the top of your WD40 can to thread some cord through and allow you to hang it on your harness. You can also then use it in place of a large hex in extremis - conveniently the little cap has a spring so you can press it in and then it will wedge in a parallel crack.

No More Nails is also indispensable for building anchors on blank sections.

98% of nuts:
1. Give the wire a gentle jiggle, which should release it
2. If this doesn't work, see if you can get your fingers on the nut (not the wires) and try to unstick it/turn it until it releases, then guide it out with the wires.
3. If you can't get your fingers on it, or it's still stuck, determine the geometry of the constriction trapping the nut, then give it a little tap or two with a nutkey in the correct direction.

The other 1.9%:
Sit on the rope. Study the geometry of the crack further, reassessing your method and looking for whatever little contortion has the nut stuck... then repeat the above process.

Final 0.1%
Ok... time for a bit of brute force and desperation. If you still can't get it out, better to leave it to someone more able that to damage the rock

I've only used "the big whip" once in 8 years, on an in situ nut that wasn't moving at all; most of the time this risks the nut getting more stuck. I feel similarly about immediately reaching for the nutkey: normally, on retrieval of in situ nuts, you see the poor little thing has been absolutely mashed with a nut key, with the bashing only making it more stuck (and often ready for the bin on retrieval). You often see the rock around the placement is also battered.

Much better advice IMHO.... the big whip does often work if all else fails on stuck wires, say after taking a lead fall.

Lol.... you remind me of these fabulous resources (not for beginners, or the risk averse)

http://www.kakibusok.plus.com/Equipment/index.htm

This is where the nut key on a leash (wild country make them) really comes into its own.

Ah right - brilliant advice.. just keep bending your wires back and forth till the individual wires fray.. stunning. 

So just to be sure, your advocating weakening your wires, up until the point they start snapping?

That'll be comforting when you're facing a big pisser onto a wire, but you can console yourself that you've only bent them back and forth 19 times, and they only generally start snapping after the 20th time. 

Perhaps you should get a job writing advice articles for the largest online disseminator of info to the young and aspiring trad generations.  Right up your street that. 

* pedant alert *

I think the correct name for this gadget is a ‘f***ness device’ although widely misquoted. UKC won’t let me post the name but it’s a four letter word beginning with F and it’s not ‘funk’. I had one for a while which I’ve since lost. Good luck googling the name. 

I can't find any reference for that being true, whereas a Google for a funkness comes up with lots of examples.

I’ve whipped out an awful lot of wires over the years, and can count on the fingers of one hand the number I’ve thrown out due to freying. Maybe we’re doing something different?

I’m talking about one big, violent tug upwards. This should, hopefully, unstick the stubborn nut allowing it to be wiggled and out. 

The article is called removing stuck gear, not removing gear! 

How do you know this? I struggle to remember how I took our wires yesterday, let along 6 years ago. 

Also what’s is wrong with nuts being a bit bashed up by a nut key, as long as the wires are intact? It’s worth remembering that climbing gear is a means to an end, and should be views as tools not jewels. 

I am reminded of someone who carries their cams to the crag carefully packed into tupperware containers!

I know it's about stuck gear, but how people try to get gear out is often what gets it stuck - not the leader placing it (well... not usually) or gear being weighted by, e.g. being in a belay. Gear that's been fallen on can be "well seated", but not usually stuck... sometimes kinked though.

How do I know I've only used the "big whip" once? Because it's not a tactic I regularly use and, at least on volcanic rock and limestone, it's rarely effective, because the nut is usually stuck due to the uneven character of the crack rather than due to being "cold welded".

All of my nuts look "well used", with almost all the anodisation worn away and the usual pockmarks and scars. But, that's different to being mashed. There's nothing wrong per se with it being a bit mashed, but what you tend to find is that being mashed goes along with frayed and kinked wires, sharp bits, one side that's deformed, etc., where someone has indiscriminately stabbed at the poor nut with their proddler in a blind fury. Personally, when I get these nuts out they either go in the bin due to the wires at the base of the nut being damaged or go with my other spares and never get a chance to come off the subs bench, despite repeated promises of getting "a chance to play next winter", due to being too damn ugly.

Yes... I occasionally talk to my gear... sorry. It's just... we've been through quite a lot together!

That reminds me of the punchline of the old joke about someone lost, asking directions on how to get to somewhere from someone who knows where they are.... "don't start from here". The key to minimising the stuck wire issue is better placement and more a thoughtful attempt at removal. Always worth saying if you write about stuck gear.

I'm guessing because he cares.... it works wonders for retaining memory.

The trad game is an art for many of us, from history, through experience, to memory, with the means being integral to the end.... efficient and effective gear placement and removal being very much part of it. Bashing away is a sign of a small failure and can damage the rock. We all fail to consistently achieve our highest aims at times but the pursuit can matter and learning, from what didn't go as expected, helps... it works for improving writing too; the Peter Cook option is also always available.

Excellent stuff... the dislikes just add to it for me

Well. Here goes:

Being old school I can recall the days when we carried a peg hammer [to place and retrieve pegs even on summer rock climbs]. And... in the not too distant past I have carried a peg hammer to hit my nut key. I find this makes retrieval of those jammed nuts much easier. Of course in winter I have a hammer on one of my tools.

When it comes to jammed 'cams' then I find  that a crowbar works well.

That does have merit - it's easy to knacker cam wires putting them in and out of a bag on a sling.

My climbing partner packs his cams and wires flat in old crampon bags.

Just stuffing cams and wires in a rucksack can do them no good. I try to lay them bunched together neatly together parallel and flat to avoid problems especially to the trigger wires.

I found some info on Supertopo from Russ Walling: 'The initial F*#KNESS device was so named because it unleashed unreal f*#kness on an offending piece. I think we were testing Quickies Nuts in Camp 4... Me, Ducey, Meaty...( Shultz maybe? ) when the name was coined. Anyway, the name was changed to FUNKNESS in the A5 catalog as a PC gesture.'

And the same thread from Spencer Adkisson: 'I don't know if it is a coincidence, fact, or embellishment, but a friend, and old retired aid climber named Peter Chesko told me a long time ago, that he and his friends had coined the term 'Fukness' way back in the day when he was climbing in Yosemite alot (70's sounds right). It was born as a spontaneous term to describe the extra mustard needed to remove pins after a nail-up. The fukness device was not necissarily a new invention, but really only served one purpose. The term was toned down, and made into the PC 'Funkness' and then the 'Funkness Device' as it became part of the popular lexicon.'

Get a paperclip. open it out and close it again repeatedly until it breaks counting the number of repetitions.  It probably doesn't matter if it's a cheapy paperclip or expensive stainless nut wire, once past the 'yield point' where it gets permanently bent it will work-harden upon 'straightening' and the fatigue life is likely to be similar - I did have a quick google but couldn't find anything.  Don't forget that wire is work-hardened by loading it against something, so bending the wire against the bottom edge of a nut will work-harden it even if it's not being perma-bent.  It would be very interesting to see results of testing - Where's Jim Titt and his load cell?

Pages 33-35 of https://www.unionrope.com/Portals/0/Documents/Technical/Wire-Rope-Basics/wi... are interesting. It looks like wire should be retired when 2 strands are broken at an end connection.

Also seems to have something to do with the Devil's Lake Fukness Association or the DLFA as described by 'Prunes' the same Supertopo thread: 'Fuk-nes or fuk-nez which is the correct spelling of the word is sort of a way of life. It means taking copius amounts of drugs and booze and climbing at your highest level. You get to fuked or jaked and cannot climb well some say you have fallen off the fine line of Fuk-nez. Some say this can get you thrown out of the DLFA and others say you should be knighted for such behavior. It is somewhat of a vision quest. Graffiti as propoganda has always been a popular past time of club members.The valley was heavily marked. For a time on the Leaning tower west face DLFA was scratched into the lichen (not the rock). Most every stall in the Awhanee mens room had club slogans on them.'...  'Have sex with animals, drink to spew in '82. DLFA.'

It definitely has merit. Just a tiny bit anal though!

Considering I dont bother sorting my rack, and just lob it in my rucksack at the end of the day, I’m not sure the cam box will be for me.

Interesting thoughts.  I tend to think of a 'big whip' as a bit of a last resort because a) it often seems to cam the nut into an even more stuck position b) if the nut does ping, it tends to fly straight into my face c) it's probably the most damaging to the rock.

A peg hammer and a crowbar? I like your style. 

Never lost a Wild Country Rock to a crack in around 10 years of climbing, have lost a quite sizeable amount of DMM Wallnuts (particularly from size 5 upwards).

Make of that what you will. 

Big whipping every wire as a means of being a lazy fud will wreck your wires and will make your otherwise understanding partner angry, please don't. The other side of it is that being that I then need to spend time bending wires back and when I forget and then struggle to place my bent wire mid crux. If I wasn't annoyed before that, I am now.