UKC

I've stared taking my daughter climbing a few months ago. Took her twice when she was 3 before lockdown then been back a few months. She is now 6. 

She's currently climbing up to 5b top rope and has got much more comfortable with the exposure, height and managing herself on the wall. She's slightly under average height so some routes are a little reachy for her. 

What advice do you have for encouraging her progression? What sort of grade goals should I encourage her with at her age etc 

She's also enjoying bouldering and enjoys trying grades above her ability and working on the first moves etc. 

In reply to userunknown:

Sound advice here:

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48419/this-be-the-verse

In reply to userunknown:

Just belay them on whatever they fancy and give them a high five for their effort, top or not.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Neatly done

In reply to JLS:

That's pretty much the approach. She's already used to being in a gym environment and has always exercised and been physical ... but she's very competitive and I'm in favour of encouraging that with her climbing too. I want her to push ... But not be disappointed with her progress if she fails etc We are very positive about failure being essential to learning so hopefully that doesn't happen. 

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Too late for the don't have kids yourself thing. Didn't put anything on the end of it. 

In reply to userunknown:

Concentrate on keeping it fun. That's the best thing you can do for a six year old, grades will come in time (that said... 5b she's doing you proud already!)

In reply to userunknown:

My 9 year old daughter has climbed since she was 6.

She can confidently lead, top rope and boulder, but I genuinely can't tell you what grade she can climb. 

So many routes are height dependent. There are 5b routes that can require dynos, next to a 6a+ that she can lead without breaking sweat.

Jointly track her pb grade in each style of climbing and be excited as it goes up, but recognise that there will always be "easier" routes with stopper moves due to her reach. If long reaches are obvious from the ground, especially near clips we sometimes nominate another coloured hold as "on route". 

In reply to userunknown:

She's 6. Just let her piss about and have a laugh.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Absolute not. That for when you're in your 40's haha 

In reply to chris_r:

Completely! I try to take that approach at the moment and let her know which sections look a bit reachy for her. She's explosive enough for a dynos if she has to just want to build her confidence and strength/coordination bouldering for that. 

I've just loosely introduced grades but not made a big thing of it. She's very aware of her limitations and is comfortable making her own decisions about what to climb and what she feels comfortable with. 

In reply to leland stamper:

Thanks. I thought I wouldn't go in studs up, as it's Christmas and all that.

In reply to userunknown:

'What sort of grade goals should I encourage her with at her age'

None, especially not indoors. Indoor grades are laughable and really only useful as a rough yardstick for difficulty when comparing to other routes at the same wall. 

As for grades to encourage? Just enjoy it. 

Take care,

BB

In reply to Andy Hardy:

It wouldn't have ended well either. As it's Christmas and all that  

In reply to userunknown:

Why does this sound like competitive dad syndrome?

In reply to Brass Nipples:

Maybe.
However, there also seems to be a bit of an un-needed pile on by UKC'rs to try and rubbish the OP.

In reply to userunknown:

when my son was the same age, apart from climbing with me, he used to go to a Friday climbing club for kids at The Edge in Sheffield where he worked out what he wanted to do. It was the highlight of his week. loads of the kids like the Whittakers went on to do great things, and my son is still climbing, way harder than me 27 years later. The kids clubs can be a great thing for them to work stuff out themselves, and if progression is the thing for them. 

In reply to userunknown:

If your daughter is 6 you're already leaving it way too late. By this stage nothing less then E5 6b will do. Luckily for you I'm here to help.

I reckon any 6 year should be smashing something like London Wall. Those finger locks will be fist jams to her little hands. Placing those micro wire placements will feel like swinging hexes at the wall.

Merry xmas! 😉

In reply to userunknown:

Clicked on this thinking it would be about what grades you should be climbing in your 60's, 70's, 80's etc.  Disillusioned sadly.

Martin

In reply to userunknown:

1/10

Try harder next time.

In reply to FactorXXX:

It's just a depressing regularity.....

'Starting Out

A forum for asking questions, whether you are deciding to get into climbing or have just started and need something explained. UKClimbing.com is visited by many experienced climbers, including climbing and mountaineering guides, who will gladly help out. Please check the Climbing Skills category before posting. If you post here and received rude or condescending replies then please contact the moderators."

In reply to Offwidth:

The moderators who banned the OP after this one post on the day they registered! Though the ban has now been lifted.

In reply to Martin Hore:

Perhaps you've never been around successful kids or seen children thrive in competitive environments. Fortunately I have. I'm surrounded by it in other sports. 

I feel a deep sense of sadness for you. To live life expecting only failure. 

In reply to Rob Parsons:

I don't need to try. I'm not here to please anyone or find favour. 

I'm not easily offended though it's clear a bunch of others are. That's why I've 'avoiding going in studs up' lol 

No wonder the sport has remained niche when you get a bunch of ( probably) jaded middle aged men with pre conceived ideas about how to deal with people online asking genuine questions lol. 

It's been a good insight into the type of people I need my daughter to add to her list of must avoids ... Pessimists, has beens, snowflakes, failure lovers, and keyboard warriors on climbing forums 😉

In reply to userunknown:

So am I. There seems to be a correlation between hot house parents pushing their own little chosen one and said parents own capabilities. They are usually less active or capable than the parents who are more care free and just want their kids to have fun. I don't know if it is personal insecurity, or the feeling they should have pursued the sport more in their teens, 20s, 30s... generally they are living through their child who often have to cope with huge pressures imposed on them by their insecure parents. It's these parents who ruin many childrens sports groups and potential future sports stars as the second the child is old enough to decide themselves they'll drop the sport to escape it. 

It's always these kids parents who think the coaches, trainers or instructors aren't doing their job to extract the golden childs true potential but won't ever be willing to offer up their own time helping, they'd rather shout from the sides, or send emails & texts advising the coaches what to do! 

Serious note, apart from mental pressure climbing hard when young can impact their still developing joints, ligaments and tendons leading to lifelong problems when older.

In reply to ExiledScot:

I think anyone involved in youth sport has seen that from time to time but it's very much a minority or the local activities would just implode. So it's a bit unfair to label a new UKC poster as that and it's certainly against site rules to pile on on a beginners forum. The forum output is sadly mainly from old men these days so let's not scare off new people or tilt at windmills.

Alongside the positives, the issues are wider than overtraining (albeit that is crucial to avoid)

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/a-parents-guide-to-climbing-walking-and-mountainee...

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/should-u18s-use-campus-boards-finger-injuries

In reply to Offwidth:

No, the warning sign to me is if a person's first comment etc..  is about how amazing their child is. That's a hot housing parent. Doesn't matter if they are otherwise a nice person, they aren't doing that child any favours long term. Age, colour and sex of ukcers has no relevance. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

A warning sign is not the same as being that. It's hard to find a parent who doesn't get excited about their kids achievements from time to time out of love and pride. Yet the dangerous parents you are rightly worried about are a small minority.

In reply to FactorXXX:

I am surprised that you think a father setting climbing grade goals for a 6 year old daughter is perfectly normal.  Rather than just letting his daughter enjoy the climbing and progress naturally with no need to have goals and pressure imposed on her.

In reply to Brass Nipples:

I'm surprised you think encouraging your child and setting goals means pressure? Do you not think that children have goals set on them constantly. Particularly at school but also from being a toddler ... Can you walk to Daddy? Can you say Mum, can you say dad? Can you find the red square? What sound does a dog make? Etc etc 

Having a goal doesn't mean there has to be pressure. Goals can be fun as well as developmental. 

If you're failing to create fun environments then yes of course that's not good ... But it's not worse than a distinct lack of knowledge combined with an assumptive judgemental attitude lol 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Serious note I own businesses focused on strength and conditioning, sports performance, sports injury rehabilitation and coaching and development. 

If you got off your Hugh horse long enough to engage with someone that than making a bunch of assumptions you might actually get somewhere. 

So far your hit rate on your assumptions has been pretty much zero. 

You will find that communicating with people and asking questions saves you from embarrassing misinterpretation and I'll conceived judgement. When I need advice I ask for it. I then take advice from numerous people and form an opinion based on evidence. 

I don't just guess that my assumptions are correct ... 

In reply to userunknown:

I think that there would be more sympathy, or more open minded approaches to your keenness for your daughter to improve if you filled out your profile (and not just the bit about climbing grades etc) so we have more of an idea about you.

I certainly agree about being careful not to end up with joint and soft tissue problems for the future; as six is when a lot of growth is going on and a lot of musculoskeletal structure is not consolidated, and so damage to those structures is more easily done.

In reply to Offwidth:

I think that the OP profile name "ClimbHard" says it all.

And remember UKC forums are nothing more than the Internet equivalent to chatting to your mates in the pub 😀

In reply to ExiledScot:

Please show me where my post was saying how amazing my child is? 

It was exactly the opposite .. it's asking advice on what is an appropriate level for a child to climb at given her age and experience. It's asking for advice about how to help continue her progression. It gave accurate informational to help someone provide guidance. 

Yet it generated a lot of unhelpful judgemental replies, assumptions and accusations from a bunch of people who should really know better. 

Fortunately I couldn't care less about those types so it doesn't discourage or demotivate me or my kids BUT you're likely damaging and putting off the next generation of climbers. Such a shame. 

In reply to Steve Woollard:

Yes climbing is hard. Glad you understood the username. 

I didn't use my name because I didn't know if this might be one of those forums full of lunatics .....  Haha

In reply to Offwidth:

Totally agree, every parent will be proud of their kids, especially when it's often amazing how fast 4,5,6... year olds soak up information, skills advance etc.. but generally it's not constantly foremost on peoples minds. There is bragging and there's bragging. 

I've seen several kids have the joy sucked out of them in sport. My own brother(and his wife) are obsessed with their 6 year old being the best for his age swimming, they said in front of him that all his playing in the pool on holiday made his technique worse, the saddest thing i heard him say was that he wanted to just go swimming with his friends for fun sometime. Neither of the parents are active.

It's a vulnerable age, the kids don't know better, respect or look up to their parents and and unknowing parents can especially push them too hard and not see the warning signs. The parents then get defensive over any coaching advice that might be construed as negative. 

In reply to userunknown:

If your child is a keen runner, for example, it's easy to set reasonable targets in terms of times to encourage improvement.

Climbing is different because grades are so subjective especially, as others have pointed out above, if you are very small. It's extremely difficult (and in my opinion, with a teenager who has climbed regularly since he was a toddler, pointless) to set targets around grades for children who climb. Just have a nice time in nice places with nice people if you want her to enjoy climbing and improve.

BTW  I also have a teenager who is a keen footballer so I'm definitely not against competitive sport and the different approaches needed there. 

In reply to userunknown:

But my horse isn't called Hugh. In fact, I don't have a horse. Will a bike do? I can borrow one.

In reply to userunknown:

At that age I wouldn't put them on any route where they can't use their whole hand on holds(grade is irrelevant, focus on different styles of route or climbing). Better still kids groups, they should be having fun with other kids, successes, failures, chat, games, learning that there will be times you're the best in the group, then the next route the worst. It's all far better for long term sport development in terms of physical but also mental ability. The bonus is it frees you up to climb at the same time and not spend your time trying to do long distance supervision of whoever is leading the kids group. 

In reply to veteye:

I can accept some of the points.

I'm keenly aware of the musculoskeletal issues for climbing in kids (which exists in many other sports incidentally) but I don't really see why I should try and seek sympathy or pad out a profile. 

I had a general question I wanted to ask and asked it in a friendly way with plenty of detail. 

The fact that people feel entitled to know a bunch of additional information about me or feel entitled to level accusations against my parenting says a lot more about them than it does me. 

In reply to userunknown:

I've been involved in coaching, instructing etc of a few sports for a long time and in every group of parents there always one, you're that one. You ask for advice and when it's not what you want to hear you start bad mouthing people. I'm not damaging or putting anyone off, people just lose sight of what sport is, it's not the 3rd world in the uk just yet, it's not a route out of poverty, sport is for fun, for physical and mental health.

I've seen a few hot housed kids return to a sport after their university years where they've maybe dabbled at it and found the fun, or their love for it again. The best advice I can give you if you want to be enjoying climbing with them in 10, 20, 30 years is play the long game, fun not grades or mileage, they'll develop as they mature and push it harder.

In reply to userunknown:

Have you considered arm-lengthening surgery for her?

When she's f ucking about, use a cattle prod for 'encouragement.'

Nothing less than 9a will do. Get with the program.

In reply to userunknown:

What you probably do not know, is that there is a long history on this forum site of people without any background history filled in, posting, who are trolling, or with other less desirable background. I am not saying that you fit into that group, but you are more likely to be considered to be in that group, by some.

All I was saying was that you may be more likely to be listened to sensibly, if you show that you are just a normal person with interests outside of climbing as well. No-one feels entitled to know things about you: We would prefer that you would want to volunteer a little bit about yourself, some of which may be irrelevant to climbing. (I can see that you have understandably been wound up by the thread responses, and are being more reflexively defensive, but I was just trying to be helpful).

In reply to userunknown:

It never ceases to amaze me that people look to social media for answers to potentially life changing questions. But in the most part the answers you're getting are genuine and well meaning.

If you really want to encourage your daughter the best way IMHO is to take them along to one of the many climbing clubs that operate in the climbing walls. There she will climb and have fun with children of her same age under the supervision of a qualified instructor who will also be able to answer your questions

In reply to userunknown:

…And you were advised that the appropriate level for that age was not measured by grade but measured by fun had. Sadly, that doesn’t seem to be an answer you want to hear.

You suggest you are in the gym business. Out of curiosity, what are six year olds bench pressing in your gyms these days?

In reply to userunknown: While encouragement and setting goals is all well and good, and can be positive the other side is that you won't often succeed and how will the child, and the parent learn to deal with failure.   And climbing can be harsh for that - how are they going to deal with failing on a 5 when they're expecting to move to 7a as an example (and it will happen)

For a compeititve parent the nightmare scenario must be that the child loves a sport they're rubbish at

In reply to Steve Woollard:

You need to find a different group of friends 😂

In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

Probably true, but don't tell them 🤣

In reply to userunknown:

With kids, much better to do fun games and daft challenges which encourage learning technique. 

For example, put corks on a load of low level holds and try to traverse using those holds for feet but without knocking off the corks. She sets the challenge for you and you set it for her. 

Feet first: you can't touch a hold with your hand until you have touched it first with your foot (balance and flexibility).

Limbo: put a broom handle end against the wall, traverse under it. Then get it lower and lower, lowest traverse wins. Again, you hold for her and she holds for you. 

But mostly, get her climbing with other kids and having fun. Most climbers are not competitive. Obviously, some are. But if you chat to most groups of climbers, they are the people who skived PE at school and don't do traditional sports. I know I certainly am, and so are many of the kids I coach. We offer them the chance to train for competitions, most choose not to. Let her enjoy it for what it is, and if she chooses to push for certain grades or comps down the line, then support her, but don't push it. 

In reply to veteye:

Thank you for a sensible considered response. I accept some of those points fully. 

However allowing a history of trolling to affect how you interact with every new person is only likely to increase the trolling an animosity wouldn't you agree? 

In reply to JLS:

Bench pressing has little transference to most sports. It's sports performance and rehabilitation not bodybuilding. A floor press would have more application. 

That said a strong 8 year old would be around 20kg on a bench press. I accept that there are strength contests for children in some countries though non functional strength training for children is not something I take an interest in. 

As for an answer I want to hear ... Well I asked a question. I expected mature responses .. that's what I wanted to hear. 

Instead I received a bunch of accusations of being a push parent or given parenting advice on a negative connotation. Absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked lol 

What a lot of those people answering don't want to hear is when someone argues back clearly lol 

In reply to girlymonkey:

Thank you! For a helpful response! Despite the ramblings of the aged I've not pushed or aggressively motivated her at all. 

She's very much her own person and I try to keep everything we do fun. Not just sport or climbing but everything in life. 

I cheer her on and champion her in both success and failure. As previously mentioned I've introduced grades as she asked the question. She likes to know what's hard and what's easy. She is naturally competitive. Kids often are. 

She prefers climbing to general group games and generally prefers to climb alone or in small groups. She will join in some games though and there are a few she has enjoyed and tried hard at. 

Surprisingly she likes silent climbing games where she climbs as quietly as possibly. Unusual for her as she is loud as hell haha. She also likes games where she has to avoid obstacles or find ways over, under or around things. 

She also enjoy watching climbing online and I've let her watch any content she wants.

In reply to userunknown:

7a by 7, 8a by 8?

In reply to userunknown:

I'm afraid you've misunderstood what was intended as a humorous post.  That could hardly be further from my outlook on life. 

Martin

In reply to Martin Hore:

Martin then I sincerely apologise! I have felt a little on the back foot on this thread but that's no excuse for misreading your intentions. 

Please accept my genuine apologies and I hope no offence was caused. It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment sometimes and not pay full attention. 

In reply to magma:

Haha. Makes logical sense lol 

In reply to magma:

My daughter turns 10 next year and she's either going to be world famous or a failure.

In reply to john arran:

But considering her genetic inheritance do we take it she has managed 9a by age 9? ;⁠-⁠)

In reply to userunknown:                                                                                                                              'I want her to push ... But not be disappointed with her progress if she fails etc'

Herein lies the problem.

You're trying to live life vicariously.

You'll 'Larkinise'  her with your approach (IMO), leave her be, or expect her to have loads of therapy bills later...

FWIW your poster name gives the game away.

In reply to Ade in Sheffield:

I'm still at a loss to understand why accepting that climbing is hard and using that as a username prompts this response?

In reply to userunknown:

Maybe if you had reversed the climb and hard or inserted ‘is’ it would give the response you were maybe looking for?

In reply to userunknown:

Are you doing it right? I used to find climbing very easy. Flowing over the rock like a breath of wind, effortlessly ascending like a weightless gazelle. Now, caving - that was a desperate struggle for survival with all the uncertainty of a First World War trench. The lack of proper grades made it even worse.

In reply to userunknown:

A genuine answer to your question.

Firstly for most of people climbing is not "hard" per se, a climb might be hard but climbing should be enjoyable, fun, etc. Your username makes you sound pushy, aggressive and boastful which given the context of your original question about your 6-year-old daughter is what a lot of people are reacting to. If you had used the username “Climbing is Hard” I don’t think anyone would have question it.

Secondly climbing is a very broad church of activities from indoor climbing to mountaineering in the greater ranges, carried out by people of all abilities and all ages and the UKC forums are a reasonable representation of all the different types people that participate in climbing. Therefore for a lot of people being motivated by wanting to push your grade is very much contrary to the spirit of climbing.

I hope you and your daughter grow to love climbing for its own sake and not for what grade you are climbing at.

In reply to Steve Woollard:

I'd say the vast majority of time spent indoor climbing is on something hard for the average individual and being hard enough to provide challenge is what makes it more fun than  something easier they could be climbing instead.

On 'labels' I know some people who have labelled you and I permanently for some UKC views in the past. I'd rather things like that didn't happen and nearly everyone was given the benefit of the doubt on different viewpoints, even if emotive;  however, here specifically, it's a formal requirement on a post on a UKC beginner's forum, and for good reasons.

In reply to Steve Woollard:

I'll be honest Steve. I think it's unlikely we will return to climbing. She already has a number of other hobbies and sports she enjoys, and we've never had such a negative experience in forums or groups representing those sports. 

I had a chat with my partner this morning and showed her the rest of the comments on this thread and we both agree that if it is representative of the climbing community then it's not something we would really want to be associated with. 

Perhaps the kids groups we have enjoyed across the different centres are very different to the attitudes here but I genuinely wouldn't want her to experience such judgemental, rude and negative attitudes. No one should feel any need to justify themselves to a bunch of people for asking questions. It's a sure fire way to put people off a hobby. 

We will continue with our outdoor adventures and love of nature but will probably focus more on the team sports she enjoys where the camaraderie and support is much more positive. 

In a way I'm glad I stumbled into this forum at such an early stage. Either way it's been educational 

In reply to userunknown:

Just to remind you, that you were the one in your first post on this thread asking about grade goals for a 6 year old.

Had you asked about fun stuff, games, kids groups, non grade focused development and anything else steering towards the enjoyment side, the responses here would be entirely different. You asked the question, you got a fairly similar answer from most people, almost all with kids and between us literally hundreds of climbing years experience and much of that instructing, teaching or leading groups. The advice was free, you deciding to take any of it is your choice, there is no loss or gain to us. 

In reply to userunknown:

"It's been a good insight into the type of people I need my daughter to add to her list of must avoids ... Pessimists, has beens, snowflakes, failure lovers, and keyboard warriors on climbing forums"

Thats quite an insightful post - you're letting in your words a bunch of snowflakes put you off something you and your daughter enjoy doing, is that not a bit 'snowflakey' to throw it in based upon a couple of posts that may have touched a raw nerve ?

IMO, climbing is not generally seen as a competitive sport by the vast majority of people who participate and people are generally very encouraging especially when you are actually participating - but I guess that is your loss if you want to give it up but I would encourage you to let your daughter make her own mind up when she is old enough if she enjoys it.

In reply to userunknown:

Climbing is a particularly close community. The elite rub shoulders with the newbies and punters, and everyone tends to be friendly and supportive. My daughter climbs with a few of the GB youth squad and none of them appear to have 'pushy parents' (although im sure it happens sometimes). It's just not one of those sports. Every so often I'll see a young kid with a persuasive parent and it's just awful. The kid isn't having fun, and the parent comes across as a dick. 

In regards to your last comment, no one cares wether you stick with climbing or jump to another sport, but if your kid loves it leave her to it 🙂

In reply to userunknown:

Flouncing off UKC is your call and fair enough. Ending your daughter's fledgling climbing experience because of some tough advice here is frankly ludicrous. 

Climbing walls are universally friendly and welcoming in my experience.

In reply to userunknown:

Your last post really just backs up all the negative assumptions people have made on this thread.

You had a negative experience on the internet (your daughter didn't see or experience it) but now you are deciding that she will stop climbing because of it. No consideration of whether she wants to go climbing, it's all about you deciding and pushing her to do things. Classic pushy parents, let your daughter climb if (and what grade), she wants to. Take your massive ego out of it for once.

In reply to userunknown:

Just to give context. Could you tell us what you weigh, and what sports you currently take part in ?

In reply to userunknown:

Some of the less supportive replies on this post should be taken as a criticism of social media and NOT climbers.  In my experience climbers are some of the nicest, most down to earth people I have ever come into contact with always willing to give encouragement and support to less experienced climbers. Please do not judge climbers in general by a few nasty keyboard warriors of which there is a plentiful supply on UKC. It is worth bearing in mind however that, amongst many, climbing and competition are two words that should not be used in the same sentence

In reply to userunknown:

Seeing as though many people have made assumptions, shall I assume that you may be North American or at least parents from there?

In the UK, the sense of humour is very much about self irony and taking the mickey out of most things. That said there is a healthy dose of passive aggressive in there. As my username suggests I have had to understand this. 
 

Don’t ditch climbing just because some climbers on one forum have you some grief! For a start, many climbers never go on forums! You will also find that climbing is very much like all other walks of life: some lovey people and some arseholes (we like to swear on here too😉), some you get on with and some you don’t.

80% of my UK friends are climbers… which could make you judge me negatively, I suppose 😂

As for your daughter, let her climb what she wants/can and keep her safe.

In reply to userunknown:

I see nothing in your response here that would make me think you are the kind of adult who could support a child to fulfill its potential.

In reply to Shani:

This is quite a leap to make.

Just because you don't agree with his stand point on 'grade focussing' doesn't make him a bad parent. Your post sums up everything that is wrong with social media

In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

The 'leap' isn't that big - and my issue isn't with 'grade focussing' [sic], it's to do with empowerment and WHO gets to make the decisions here.

The OP started off from a position of supporting his daughter in progressing in climbing. He had taken a decision to help her improve in climbing and stated how she enjoyed the sport.

By his last post he was taking the decision of whether to climb away from her; removing a source of enjoyment from her life.

After 10 years running kids football, it's a mentality I'm jaded by.

In reply to userunknown:

My son started at about your daughter’s age. I’d recommend 3 things. 

Kids’ club at your local wall. 

NICAS (through the kids’ club).

YCS https://www.thebmc.co.uk/youth-climbing-series

This is the route my lad took, followed by good coaching in his teens, he still has a very good coach, he’s in his early twenties and is still enjoying the sport with his focus on ridiculously hard bouldering. 

In reply to Shani:

To be fair, I wouldn't take my daughter climbing if my first interaction with the community was this one.

In the interests of balance, I don't agree with the OPs grade focused outlook (even though we all are to a greater or lesser extent), but it's up to the OP how he raises his kids. I hope he decides it's worth another shot and ignores all the high horses on here

Also, maybe you've caught me on a bad day but the fact that you felt the need to put '[sic]' in your reply makes you look like a pretentious n0b. This is a random Internet forum, not a high brow journalistic publication

In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

Use of [sic] was not meant to be patronising. That said, I am a pretentious nob.

In reply to Shani:

You do know it’s a legit word which you can spell with one ‘s’ or two 

In reply to UKB Shark:

I do now!

But sadly that doesn't escape the diagnosis on being a 'pretentious nob'.

In reply to Shani:

I believe you should have said 'pretentious nob (sic)' as a more correct form would be 'pretentious knob', surely.

I'll get my coat.

In reply to userunknown:

Oh so calling someone a knob is allowed again now is it?

I got a three week ban earlier this year for calling someone that.  Once. With no emphasis words.

This thread is an absolute car crash by the way. What unpleasant bunch we can be.

How me calling someone a very mildly offensive term once earned me a ban, whereas this shambles of a thread remains entirely unmoderated is beyond me.

What a horrible mess.

In reply to Iamgregp:

 I agree wholeheartedly with this comment..

In reply to robate:

Thanks! I appreciate you taking the time to say so.