UKC

Back in February, I hit the ground after falling from between quickdraw 7 and 8 at an indoor facility.  The likely cause was the belayer failing to lock off and hold the rope, but thankfully the resulting fall didn't result in any life changing injuries and I continue to climb (albeit with a limited pool of belayers).

I had a conversation with a duty manager who helped me out and they commented that "they all blur into one" and they've dealt with an average of 3/4 major falls a year.  Are groundfalls really that common?  Are there publicly available statistics on the matter?  

Likely cause?  

I'd suggest it was the cause. Given no more information than your op.

Glad you are ok . 

Saw someone almost hit the floor top - roping on Sunday. He'd elected to go up on the free rope,  ie the one not through the draws,  but , for some reason,  still unclipped them as he climbed and managed to duck under the captive rope. He got a bit tangled up, making it difficult for the belayer to take in, fell off then bawled out his obviously inexperienced belayer for not err moving around enough. ...the twit

I pointed out that it would have been a lot easier to go up on the other end

I saw some stats recently from a German survey covering several major walls over a period of years, and they recorded something like 30 incidents involving hospitalisation from half a million user hours. But that included things like broken ankles / dislocated shoulders from bouldering falls, not only roped falls. I'll see if I can find it again later.

Anecdatally I've been going to roped lead walls typically one to three times a week for years, and have witnessed one ground fall from a significant height.

1 hurtz?

I think it's important to differentiate between falls where the rope is going through the belay device but the belayer isn't sufficiently controlling the dead end and falls where the rope isn't doing anything at all (e.g. because the climbers knot has come out, or the rope isn't threaded in the belay devicey or the rope isn't going through any quickdraws).    Indoors where the ropes tend to be relatively thick the friction will slow the climber substantially even if the belayer messes up so there's nothing like as much energy involved when the climber hits the ground as with a real 'free fall'.

It is not always the belayer at fault..... There Are many factors involved in ground falls.

Poor communication. Excessive slack in the system .Back clipping.

poor knot /rope work . A combination of above. 

I climb indoors in the winter  All of the above are witnessed frequently.

No idea how frequent it is overall but I've seen two personally. 

One was belayer error, about 6m up, far to much slack out, the guy hit the ground without the rope ever even going tight.

The other was a guy top roping, got to the top, weighted the rope to lower and fell out of his harness. It was a good few years ago before auto-locking buckles, he hadn't doubled it back and it just pulled through as soon as he sat on it, he fell about 8m. 

nither was badly hurt, I think one did a night in hospital as they lost consensus a bit, the other was just pretty shaken. 

50% the belayer

Excessive slack in the system.

The belayer.

Back clipping.

30% the belayer who should keep and eye on these things.

30% the belayer, as above.

I worked at a wall for 16 years and only saw one full on ground fall. A handful more I know about but probably less than I can count on one hand overall. 

Overly fast descents with jarred ankles or shaken up climbers much more common. Since the introduction of a soft flooring under roped climbing these are now much less frequent (and often go unreported to staff) with the only damage often being to the individuals pride. 

When leading people use whatever thickness they like.

Yes, but in practice from what I see almost everyone is using roughly the same thickness of rope from a bit under 1cm to a bit over.  There could be the odd person with a low-friction belay device and a thin rope but it's not the norm and that's probably one of the reasons relatively few people get injured.   There's a huge difference between falling from high up with a reasonably thick rope being dragged through a modern belay device and falling with no rope at all.

In this particular incident, we had a mammut 9.7 with a bd guide. No excessive slack, I was halfway between the 7th and 8th clip.  Whilst it probably wasn't full speed, it was certainly quick enough to feel the air. Not one to experience inadvertently.

This is the sort of frequency I'd expect. Where did you work? 

I have seen a situation where the climber has asked for slack, missed the clip and fell off, I would agree with regard to the belayer keeping an eye on things but the belayer cannot account for all eventualities. Going back to the OP ,it would be of interest if there is data regarding statistics although i doubt it due to the unique factors in each fall. Safe climbing Baz.

I would not be surprised if it was 3-4 major falls a year. I would have thought this was the minimum at a large centre. It also depends what you mean by major.

I once got to the top of a lead climb at the castle. Looked down, made eye contact with my belayer and sat back on the rope and promptly fell undisturbed to the ground. My belayer told me that she thought I wanted slack and then could not stop the rope. I too learnt from this and I am really careful about who belays me now. Luckily there was friction in her device and I did not reach terminal velocity. I still fractured my spine but fortunately it was a hairline fracture. This happened in 2002 and I do not think the wall even reported it. I am sure times have changed and they would now. To be fair on the wall, at the time I was embarrassed and did not know I was injured and got myself home. It was a few days later I went to hospital when the fracture was confirmed.

Over the years I have seen 3 major falls at AW Stockport. One resulted, sadly in a death. Two others were broken bones.

Given that I only go to the wall once a week during the winter seeing 3 falls like this over 15 years gives some limited indication of the frequency.

I've seen two falls indoors over the last 5 years - one belayer error, one clipping too high above head coupled with a belayer error. Both were OK(ish).

I wonder if ground falls indoors are more frequent than sport climbing outdoors. I suspect so!

I really can't see why you are getting all the dislikes. I think we can assume from the OP's post that it was not a knot or harness error, so I find it impossible to see any other cause than belaying error - nobody hits the ground from between the seventh and eighth bolt without being dropped.

I've seen one not that long ago, actually, might have been February... Could have been you?

It happens though doesn't it?  Would be surprised if there are any publicly available figures though.

Probably one for another thread, but did the fall make you think of switching to an auto lo... ahem, assisted breaking device?

The Castle currently have a board with all their accident stats for the past year on it up in the centre. I must have as closer look tonight and see if ground falls are one of the items listed on it. Although it would be interesting to know how many aren't reported as the leader got lucky and came out uninjured, I've seen at least one instance of that happening

Sorry for not being clear in the OP, yes it was belayer error (not holding the dead rope)

Yes it did, although not sure how well any of them would work if the dead rope is not held.  I've started using a click-up myself, and I have started to insist my belayer use an assisted device too.

I guess anything requiring the emergency services would be major.  But in this context, I'm more concerned about incidents in lead and top rope.  I've always perceived these forms to be safer and less risky than bouldering, but 4 decks per year is pretty high.  I guess I just want to assure myself that decks aren't all that common, and severe injuries are rarer.

Probably quite low compared to how many people climb indoors:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/social_climbers_-_the_evolving...

I know of at least two two full height groundfalls caused by belayer error on a grigri - personally think all too often the semi autolock gives a false sense of security and leads to sloppy belaying rather than safer.

Word for word what I was thinking.  Not sure what the standard for spacing of quickdraws but 7-8 is quite a height.  I have never witnessed a ground fall but the rather over exuberant lads practising lead falls (they got a little warning) at Kendal on Monday night we’re going from about 7,8,9 clips, pulling through loads of slack and getting nowhere near half way down, even with the belayer flying up into the wall.

Is this not a more appropriately titled ‘Choose your belayer wisely’

I'm happy you weren't badly injured and you're back climbing. However, I am a bit concerned about your motivation in posting. It sounds like you want reassurance that indoor climbing is safe. But it really isn't. And the best piece of evidence you have for that is your ground fall, the second-best is the guy who works at the wall telling you that accidents are common. It isn't a safe sport and we all have to recognise that we are taking a risk of serious injury or death even when training. That's why the BMC put the participation statement up at walls.

I almost decked once thanks to being an idiot and skipping a clip then dropping the move, I had a light belayer with a gri-gri and bounced on the rope an inch or two above the mat then landed on my shoulder. I skipped the 4th and was going for the 5th I think, so I shouldn't have been so near to decking, but the belayer was casual and had too much slack out. I was also complacent about skipping a clip because of the grade. 

Just back from a trip to the US - sadly no outdoor climbing I but visited two walls: Boston Rock Gym and Mission Cliffs in San Francisco. 

I think at both - certainly at Mission Cliffs - they have a roughly 6cm round bar at the top around which the in-situ top-ropes are wrapped twice. I've not seen that in UK (though it may exist). My feeling was - though I certainly didn't test it - that the friction on a rope rigged in this way, also passing through the belayer's belay plate, would control a fall sufficiently to avoid life-threatening injury even if the dead rope was not held.  It doesn't help in the case of lead-climbing of course, and could give beginners a false sense of security, but presumably they do this to reduce the severity of any top-roping ground falls that occur. Both walls have a two-tier test before they allow punters to climb: a top-roping test and a more thorough lead climbing test.

Martin

If a fall isn’t recorded in the accident book , did it really happen.

Yeah me and my partner always use a click up, decided to switch to that when we started leading a few years back.  Works for us...

Agreed, I've seen some shocking belaying by people using Gri Gri / other assisted breaking devices.  It's a personal choice and whatever works for you and your belayer is best. 

Different thread business this though!

If you skip the 4th and go for the 5th you've got 2 clip separations worth of rope above the third clip plus maybe another 1/2 clip separation (assuming you are clipping with your waist/knot  well below the 5th clip and reaching up with your hand). 

The last quickdraw that was clipped is 3 so you end up at 3 - 2.5 = 0.5 clip separations above the ground.  The first clip is usually a fair bit higher than a clip separation above the ground which will help but then rope stretch and the belayer getting pulled in won't help. 

Decking on rope stretch is totally on the cards even with the belayer judging the slack well.

Assuming that all the clips above the first are equally spaced.

Which they shouldn't be...

Yes, it wasn’t clever. I wasn’t clipping though so didn’t have quite that much out. 

DAV have published the 2017 accident statistics for ther climbing walls (auf Deutsch though)

https://www.alpenverein.de/bergsport/sicherheit/unfallstatistik/kletterhall...

250 walls, 26 groundfalls so ~0.1 per wall per year. They don't say how many visits/visitors though. And sounds a lot lower than what others here are suggesting.

That's really good data!    The graph in the PDF showing accident numbers for different belay devices is interesting.

It says the numbers are only for accidents where an ambulance was called so it wouldn't include groundfalls where people walked away or went for treatment on their own.

I would struggle to say where I have read this, but don't german walls insist on assisted braking devices?

i.e. not necessarily comparable to the UK

One occasional but not sadly rare factor is "somewhat experienced" climber (generally male age 18-25) with newer belayer..can either be toprope  or a belayer who can do toprope belaying but is new to lead belaying - climber is DESPERATE to climb at their limit but couldn't really find the ideal belayer and is foolishly and selfishly making do with what they have. 

   Scenario (a) - climber shows toprope belaying once, then goes for it, belayer copes as well as poss (possibly fetting shouted at from height by exasperated climber)

   Scenario (b) - climber does same with lead belaying...this is truly terrifying. Usually, belayer is competent at toprope belaying and feels very guilty/responsible that they aren't coping with lead belaying...by this point, climber is in trouble at clip 5 on steepest bit of wall.

Now that I work in walls*, part of dealing with this situation for me is making a very firm point, as gently as I can, of where responsibility lies. I keep chatting until I hear the climber apologising to the belayer (the belayer has usually been much more apologetic than meed be). Of course, I admit that I totally  messed itup a few times when I was starting, as no-one likes a wall Nazi.

Another deck-out factor is autobelays - adult climber is totally "psyched" and in their focus totallyforgets to clip in. Not too bad if they can get sideways to a route with clips, or if there is an easier route on their line, but on a rare occasion...

I don't think either of the above are common - and another poster makes the great point about numbers: with zillions of us climbing, regular climbers will see things eventually, but the odds are good. But it's not any safer than playing football or gping to the pub. Well, maybe it is!!

*Edit - though I am very much aware of how much I have yet to learn!!

I find myself somewhat reluctantly wishing this was the case at UK walls. There is so much bad dodgy on display and indoor walls are just so full of distractions and the "training" or "fun" atmosphere doesn't seem to encourage the sort of concentration evident outside. I now really dislike not being belayed with an assisted device indoors, but feel awkward about insisting on partners using one (though fortunately almost all my regular training partners are now Click-Up converts) because it might well come across as a lack of trust (which it isn't - it's just that shit can happen) but find it harder to really push myself when being belayed with a non-assisted device. Mandatory assisted devices would remove the problem.

With scenario b above I'll quietly nip in and start tailing the belayer if I think there is a very high chance of a ground fall. Only needed to do this a couple of times, and only while I was working at the wall, but I would still do it if I thought an accident was about to happen, and I'd probably get shouted at for my trouble. 

Good idea to hang around until the climber apologies or accepts responsibility. 

See at least three ground falls from not clipping into autobelays, a couple of people hung up on holds lowering off autobelays. I can't recall many leading ground falls but seen many close calls where feet ended up lower than head hight. Another one is topropeing an overhanging route with excessive swing potential especially hitting the floor on a tight rope because of the arc of the swing.

Apparently not, but quite likely a higher proportion of customers use them than the UK.  Also there seems to be a lot more use of Edelrid belay devices.

The chart "Bodenstürze und verwendetes Sicherungsgerät" in the downloadable PDF is interesting.  They classify 26 reported ground falls according to the belay device used and whether they could rule out loss of control of the rope as the cause.   The bar for 'Tube' which I am guessing includes all non-assisted belays is on the face of it a lot worse than for the assisted devices.

The bar for 'Tube' which I am guessing includes all non-assisted belays is on the face of it a lot worse than for the assisted devices.

I had a look at that and it doesn't really tell you much, unless you know the prevalence of the various different belay devices.  The only takeaway for me is that accidents can happen with any device, and to guard against complacency setting in because you are using an auto-locking device *

* yes, yes, I know, etc.

No. The DAV no longer teaches them in courses, but German walls - including those owned by the DAV - are pretty much totally laissez faire about what their customers actually do when not taking part in courses.

https://www.alpenverein.de/chameleon/public/562cf909-ee75-dbbe-a043-be48028...

If I read it right, they provide that:

Page 9 shows the count of incidents with each device

Page 10 and 11 show the relative distributions of belay devices in 2017 and 2018

It shows that in that year a GriGri (used by ~27% of the respondents surveyed) was involved in 3 accidents, whereas a Tube device was used by 26% of those surveyed but was involved in 8 accidents. 

The ergo was only used by 4% of people but was also involved in 3 accidents.

The numbers of accidents overall are quite small so there is a chance of it being skewed by the low numbers, but it's all you have

Thanks - you are right. I should have read further!

I tend to agree.  Not just indoors, but sports climbing generally.

That's a bit like "I have trouble getting my kids to wear a cycle helmet, so it should be made law".  There are reasons to make it law and reasons not to, but that is not a valid one.  Sits alongside people who want laws on the sale of sweets because they are themselves incapable of saying "no" to their precious because they might get upset.

If you don't want to climb with someone using a particular type of belay device, don't.  It's between you and your belayer.  You don't have to get off the ground if you are not satisfied, and indeed you should not get off the ground if you are not satisfied.

FWIW, I reckon if there was a mass switch to brake assist at least some would get Grigri 1s or 2s second hand, and people would end up dropped on lower-off where the things are utterly cack-handed and counterintuitive.  (The 3 solves that problem with the handle having to be held in the middle to lower).

Also.Chatting to other belayers and NOT watching the leader can be fatal.SO can  the wall owner playing music too loud,so leader calls for ''take'' can't be heard.

Really you should be paying enough attention to belaying that "take" is not a necessary command to ensure safety.  If you're on a windswept crag you might not hear it anyway.

I do have a habit of shouting it far too often as I'm sure many do, but it is more a case of "I'm scared", "I'm going to fall off", or (if below the bolt) "I'm tired and want a rest" than it being necessary to ensure my safety.

Really interesting.  I have never been that bothered with sport climbing (or walls for that matter), so I haven't really used the assisted devices.  I'd have to learn something new and invest in one to get familiar, which I will consider given the points on the thread.  I'd obviously have a learning period, in which I'd have to be especially vigilant.  That said, I have held loads of falls, indoors and outdoors, with the only ground fall occurring when the leader pulled slack for the second clip outdoors, only to slip off unexpectedly.  By 'ground', I mean he landed on me   Only out of genuine interest as it would help inform my decision, would you prefer me (belaying you) to use something I'm currently unfamiliar with, or a device I've used safely for many, many years?

Might be best for you to use something like the Mammut Smart, which is a different shape from a tubular device but works exactly the same way as one.

Giving a novice (to the device) a Gri-gri, particularly for lead belaying, is a very good way to get someone dropped in very short order; they are fine once you know how to use them correctly, but they are not tolerant to incorrect use and the correct use isn't necessarily instinctive or intuitive.  The other devices vary between those two situations to a greater or lesser extent.

Thanks for the tips.  I use a Reverso most of the time - also similar to a tubular, but differently shaped.  I have heard good things about the Smart though.   Some of the guys I climb with use Grigris at the wall, so I will get some practice in at some point.  

That's not accurate (and to be clear, I state that with reference to your "...novice (to the device)", rather than a complete novice). As long as someone is competent at belaying with a normal device there is no reason why they shouldn't pick up a grigri and be belaying effectively with it very quickly. There's no mystery to it, it really is very simple. Furthermore if you use a grigri+ that adds another back-up to the system, and they pay out rope better, too. I always use a grigri sport and indoor climbing, and I've showed lots of people how to use them, most pick it up very quickly.

I disagree. I have been belaying with normal devices for 35 years, but I find a Gri-Gri completely baffling to use efficiently. 

When I hand my Click-Up to partners used to normal devices, it really only takes them one indoor route to be absolutely fine with it since it works the same way. In fact several have liked it so much they have soon got their own. If you are used to a normal device don't get a Gri-Gri or similar!

I agree. A valid one is that it would all but eliminate people getting dropped at walls. I would just welcome the side effect of not having to make an issue of wanting to be belayed with an unassisted

device

Absolutely and I think that if the leader requests a style of belaying or a particular device, the belayer should, within reason, acquiesce. 

That looks interesting and I like the Climbing Technology kit that I already own.  I will have a look when I am next in a shop.  The plus looks like a positive evolution of a decent concept as well

'use isn't necessarily instinctive or intuitive'

yes, exactly my experience on one occasion when I tried one out.  I'm absolutely sure familiarity would resolve the issue, but I didn't immediately think that I needed to rush out and buy one.  Anyway, a thought-provoking thread

This is probably a bit like when I tried driving abroad a few years back for the first time. Driving on the right is actually very simple and easy to understand yet after 30 years driving on the left it was almost impossible and I told myself I'd never try it again. If I persevered, I would get the hang of it, as you would with the grigri, but I suppose neither of us really wants the bother. 

Agreed, I find them cack-handed in the extreme.  They have their uses, but they are not a great device to directly replace a tube device.

That's interesting and that's also what happened to Ashima - dropped from the top by her Dad. I've used a grigri for many years and never had a problem with them. They seem so safe to me I think they'd still hold a fall if the belayer was dead. Do you know the details of the errors? The only thing I can think of is that they must of put the rope in the wrong way round.

If so maybe a good habit would be to check your belayer, in the same way it's good for them to check your knot.

To me the kind of device is irrelevant. They all work and are all perfectly safe to use. The only thing you might want to change is your belayer. If they're the kind of person that's not paying attention or have poor concentration that's where the error will likely be.

Most climbers have a preferred device and as long they're competent and attentive I think it's better that they use whichever device they're used to.

Of course the device is relevant. Anyone can make a mistake or lose concentration. With an assisted device such an error is far less likely to result in a bad outcome. Saying it is irrelevant is like being happy to be driven by someone in a car which lacks seatbelts.

That's a possibility.  The other one is of lowering a little too fast and pulling the lever in panic, which results in a complete loss of friction and a ground fall, which strikes me as something a child (typically having poorer co-ordination than an adult, hence child-proof caps) might do.  Petzl clearly thought it was enough of an issue that the new Grigri has a "panic mode" and so will lock up if someone does that.

With regard to when a Grigri will lock up, it is similar to a seat belt in how it works - take a whipper and it will lock firmly, slowly peel off the wall from below the bolt and it may not.  That's why the dead end must always be held like a tube device.  It does provide extra safety in that regard but is not infallible.

It is certainly always sensible to peer check both ways.  If you find you easily gloss over it, it could be worth doing it Japanese train driver style - point at what you're checking, and know your partner will - if they don't, ask if they checked.  I do harness checks like that at our wall.

Some devices do however introduce an additional failure mode of that nature - the Grigri in particular, though the more modern devices (Clickup and Mammut Smart in particular) are much less counterintuitive in that regard and are in my view probably a better choice.

(I do own a Grigri 1, but only use it for top-rope self-belay very occasionally, I really don't like actually belaying with it)

The check goes both ways. The leader should check if the rope is properly in the device and the biner closed in her or his own interest. No belayer should ever let go of his end of the rope no matter the device, period. (while belaying from below).

Spot on. On a number of occasions I've had to request the music at a wall be turned down for exactly this reason. I couldn't hear the leader's calls.   

Not detracting *too* much from your point (as I don't disagree with it as such), but it's not utterly terrible practice for a windy day at a crag when you might not hear them for that reason and have to go on observation - if indeed you can see them at all.

True.  Several prearranged 'tugs' on the rope is our usual outdoor method of communication when we can't see or hear each other. Even that is not perfect. But we are talking about indoors where distractions are supposed to be kept to a minimum to avoid concentration lapses.   

Music actually does quite well to avoid concentration lapse through boredom in the context of road vehicles, otherwise it wouldn't be allowed to have car stereos.  But not too loud of course.

I find it interesting how no one has mentioned lack of awareness/education about the actual dangers. It is so normal to see the belayer 2 or metres back when the climber sets off. When this is the case there is very little they can do to prevent a ground fall before the climber has got to the third or fourth bolt. It isn't uncommon to see people even further back, with the forces involved you're bound to get pulled forward and can just unnecessarily add an extra 3m to the fall length. I think it's imperative for those working at walls to make people aware of this, and repeatedly ask belayers to stand close to the base of the climb until the climber is a good few clips up.

And to the side, please. Helps to avoid getting hit by the climber and the climber landing  with the rope between the legs!!

At a height where that might be an issue, the fall factor is going to be such that anything other than a relatively pretty fat belayer will not be staying to the side in the event of a fall anyway.