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Just reading about a project to get all the snow holers and campers to take their crap away with them. You just need to collect bags from the ranger base and deposit the full ones on your return down the poo chute (goes to sewage plant).
In reply to AG:
>on your return down the poo chute (goes to sewage plant).
if you don't want to go down the poo chute, can you walk off normally? I think I'd prefer that.
>on your return down the poo chute (goes to sewage plant).
if you don't want to go down the poo chute, can you walk off normally? I think I'd prefer that.
In reply to AG:
i always thought it would be a good idea if they left the bogs open overnight so you could take a dump before you set off early in the morning. They used to do this but must have had problems with people dossing in them.
i always thought it would be a good idea if they left the bogs open overnight so you could take a dump before you set off early in the morning. They used to do this but must have had problems with people dossing in them.
In reply to AG:
I'm not sure that carrying shit (which is degradeable) out in a plastic bag (which isn't degradeable) and transporting it to a sewage plant is the best and most environmentally sensitive way of dealing with this issue.
Far better to carry a trowel, bury it and burn the bog roll. Snow holers could have one designated bog or area which could move on an annual basis.
Just thoughts.
I'm not sure that carrying shit (which is degradeable) out in a plastic bag (which isn't degradeable) and transporting it to a sewage plant is the best and most environmentally sensitive way of dealing with this issue.
Far better to carry a trowel, bury it and burn the bog roll. Snow holers could have one designated bog or area which could move on an annual basis.
Just thoughts.
In reply to Removed User: But it's likely that nobody will do that, especially when the ground's frozen solid.
UK coul learn a lot for the yanks and their approach to wilderness toilet matters.
UK coul learn a lot for the yanks and their approach to wilderness toilet matters.
In reply to GDes:
Sooo. Nobody is going to learn how to shit in the woods properly (see the BMC leaflet) but you'll manage to persuade them to carry it out in a plastic bag?
Sooo. Nobody is going to learn how to shit in the woods properly (see the BMC leaflet) but you'll manage to persuade them to carry it out in a plastic bag?
In reply to Removed User:
The point about Cairngorm (specifically the plateau) is that it's now riddled with bugs and nasties form human waste. Purely, as has been mentioned, because of the specific problems with snow/frozen ground.
Bagging it out is no hardship. I'm usually so dehydrated I don't shit for days anyway.
The point about Cairngorm (specifically the plateau) is that it's now riddled with bugs and nasties form human waste. Purely, as has been mentioned, because of the specific problems with snow/frozen ground.
Bagging it out is no hardship. I'm usually so dehydrated I don't shit for days anyway.
In reply to brt:
And my point is you've got a better chance of teaching people to shit properly than you have of getting them to carry it out.
And my point is you've got a better chance of teaching people to shit properly than you have of getting them to carry it out.
In reply to GDes:
How do they do it?
> UK coul learn a lot for the yanks and their approach to wilderness toilet matters.
How do they do it?
In reply to niggle:
They carry it out in bags but they have a totally different system of access to wilderness areas which makes this more enforceable.
They carry it out in bags but they have a totally different system of access to wilderness areas which makes this more enforceable.
In reply to AG: just hold it in ya slack-ringed bunch
In reply to Removed User: But the attitude towards it is very different there. People dont see it as a chore to do this, they just do it.
Teaching people to shit in a hole is all very well, but it's not particularly sustainable. And when the grounds frozen, what do you do? Getting people into the habit of carrying out is the way forward in my opinion. Problem is that at the moment it's not easy to get hold of suitable bags in this country. The ones you get in the states have some sort of anti-odour and absorbant powder in them that means they don't stink.
Teaching people to shit in a hole is all very well, but it's not particularly sustainable. And when the grounds frozen, what do you do? Getting people into the habit of carrying out is the way forward in my opinion. Problem is that at the moment it's not easy to get hold of suitable bags in this country. The ones you get in the states have some sort of anti-odour and absorbant powder in them that means they don't stink.
In reply to Removed User:
special degradeable plastic bags, so I've been told - whether they work and don't snarl up the sewage treatment plant I don't know.
> (In reply to Removed UserAG)
>
> I'm not sure that carrying shit (which is degradeable) out in a plastic bag (which isn't degradeable)
>
> I'm not sure that carrying shit (which is degradeable) out in a plastic bag (which isn't degradeable)
special degradeable plastic bags, so I've been told - whether they work and don't snarl up the sewage treatment plant I don't know.
In reply to Joe G: Ypu could probably get a bio-degradable bag made that was destroyed by the bacteria in the sewage treatment plant.
I don't see it as a big problem (carry out that is) some 'wilderness' camp sites are a health hazard now days
Steve D
I don't see it as a big problem (carry out that is) some 'wilderness' camp sites are a health hazard now days
Steve D
In reply to GDes:
I suppose I can see this working with snow holers first and campers second but very slowly with the day trippers.
Not convinced that this is the best way forward.
What about strategically placed DTL's?
I suppose I can see this working with snow holers first and campers second but very slowly with the day trippers.
Not convinced that this is the best way forward.
What about strategically placed DTL's?
In reply to Removed User:
I dont see how a hairy ex- Pradio 1 DJ will help in this matter to be honest
> (In reply to Removed UserGed Desforges)
>
> I suppose I can see this working with snow holers first and campers second but very slowly with the day trippers.
>
> Not convinced that this is the best way forward.
>
> What about strategically placed DTL's?
>
> I suppose I can see this working with snow holers first and campers second but very slowly with the day trippers.
>
> Not convinced that this is the best way forward.
>
> What about strategically placed DTL's?
I dont see how a hairy ex- Pradio 1 DJ will help in this matter to be honest
In reply to Removed User:
A lot of folk use the same areas during the winter for snow-holing, hence you get get a lot of impact in a few areas, so it's essential that all waste is carried out.
It is often almost impossible to dig down in the winter and bury your poo.
I bag it and place it in a plastic bottle (BDH/old nalgene) then flush it away (minus the bag) when I get down.
Davy
A lot of folk use the same areas during the winter for snow-holing, hence you get get a lot of impact in a few areas, so it's essential that all waste is carried out.
It is often almost impossible to dig down in the winter and bury your poo.
I bag it and place it in a plastic bottle (BDH/old nalgene) then flush it away (minus the bag) when I get down.
Davy
In reply to AG:
Hopefully this is extended to sanitary towels and tampons. The area around the popular snow holing locations looks like the crime scene of a mass mouse slaughter after a thaw.
Hopefully this is extended to sanitary towels and tampons. The area around the popular snow holing locations looks like the crime scene of a mass mouse slaughter after a thaw.
In reply to AG:
Bury the shite and wipe your bum with snow, that'll sort the men out from the boys!!
Stuart
Bury the shite and wipe your bum with snow, that'll sort the men out from the boys!!
Stuart
In reply to AG:
I read in the Handbook of Alpinism or similar about the technique of smearing.
You smear your jobby out over as large an area as possible in the hope that it will dry out and blow away.
It's kind of like an outdoor version of a dirty protest, but you don't have to rub it onto your face.
I read in the Handbook of Alpinism or similar about the technique of smearing.
You smear your jobby out over as large an area as possible in the hope that it will dry out and blow away.
It's kind of like an outdoor version of a dirty protest, but you don't have to rub it onto your face.
In reply to AG:
You can get pink scented bags, designed for babies nappies, from Boots or other baby-nappy outlets. I used to hike with a baby so was used to carrying poo.
A veg-free diet for a few days and then hang on tight might be better, but try saying that to a baby.
You can get pink scented bags, designed for babies nappies, from Boots or other baby-nappy outlets. I used to hike with a baby so was used to carrying poo.
A veg-free diet for a few days and then hang on tight might be better, but try saying that to a baby.
In reply to AG:
I guess we could all just wear adult sized nappies...
Am I right in thinking that the only people ewho snow hole in the Cairngorms are folk on Glenmore Lodge courses?
I guess we could all just wear adult sized nappies...
Am I right in thinking that the only people ewho snow hole in the Cairngorms are folk on Glenmore Lodge courses?
In reply to Removed User:
Not at all; there are a plethora of other providers, military groups, etc who snow-hole.
> Am I right in thinking that the only people ewho snow hole in the Cairngorms are folk on Glenmore Lodge courses?
Not at all; there are a plethora of other providers, military groups, etc who snow-hole.
In reply to AG:
Given that in winter it's usually below zero, putting it in a bag and leaving the bag outside the tent or snow hole and carrying it near the outside of a pack would mean it would stay frozen most of the time anyway.
Given that in winter it's usually below zero, putting it in a bag and leaving the bag outside the tent or snow hole and carrying it near the outside of a pack would mean it would stay frozen most of the time anyway.
In reply to Jamie B.:
OK, organisations mainly then.
> (In reply to Eric9Points)
>
> [...]
>
> Not at all; there are a plethora of other providers, military groups, etc who snow-hole.
>
> [...]
>
> Not at all; there are a plethora of other providers, military groups, etc who snow-hole.
OK, organisations mainly then.
In reply to Removed User: Go into Cairngorms in late winter and you'll see many new and old snow holes - in at least 2 different sites just off the main plateau. They're mainly used by organisations as most other folk who go snowholing with mates will use different sites - if only for the challenge. I think the lodge "ship and ship" their shit now because they are such a big user - and publically funded! Other organisations wont have the finances available to make their clients skip and ship. There'll be a minefield of health and safety issues and huge cost for organisations.
In reply to AG: you can buy biodegradable bags for dog shite, wouldnt they do?
In reply to AG:
The other angle is that the sewage plant up there is really difficult to keep running properly because of the huge variation in throughput. Every little helps I suppose! Every bacterium gratefully received.
The other angle is that the sewage plant up there is really difficult to keep running properly because of the huge variation in throughput. Every little helps I suppose! Every bacterium gratefully received.
In reply to Burnsie:
They've tried leaving the toilets open and they used to leave part of the Ciste Base Station open as a bothy. Ppl dossing wasn't the issue, the issue was some people seemed to see this as a means of having a dig at CML by having a dump in the middle of the floor etc etc.
They've tried leaving the toilets open and they used to leave part of the Ciste Base Station open as a bothy. Ppl dossing wasn't the issue, the issue was some people seemed to see this as a means of having a dig at CML by having a dump in the middle of the floor etc etc.
In reply to lylecloss:
And by the morning your wee bag has been buried by fresh snow fall or drifted over and you are very unlikely to be in the mood to play hunt the crap after spending a night in a snowhole.
> (In reply to AG)
>
> Given that in winter it's usually below zero, putting it in a bag and leaving the bag outside the tent or snow hole and carrying it near the outside of a pack would mean it would stay frozen most of the time anyway.
>
> Given that in winter it's usually below zero, putting it in a bag and leaving the bag outside the tent or snow hole and carrying it near the outside of a pack would mean it would stay frozen most of the time anyway.
And by the morning your wee bag has been buried by fresh snow fall or drifted over and you are very unlikely to be in the mood to play hunt the crap after spending a night in a snowhole.
In reply to Slugain Howff: People leave tampons and towels?! thats awful. It would never occur to me to carry out shit, but used tampons- every time.
In reply to Slugain Howff:
And you just know that some tit is going to trample it after you've given up looking and decided to play hunt the pub that's open at 10am in aviemore.
> you are very unlikely to be in the mood to play hunt the crap after spending a night in a snowhole.
And you just know that some tit is going to trample it after you've given up looking and decided to play hunt the pub that's open at 10am in aviemore.
In reply to Joe G:
Just to put the record straight Joe G we ARE NOT proposing that you all shit in plastic bags adding to your carbon foot print. I have gone to considerable research and expense to have 'bespoke' bags made for the project. The bags are made of corn starch and are compatable to break down in our Klargester sewage plant here at Cairngorm Mountain. The national park have funded the project which includes £700 for the bags alongside a considerable sum for publicising the project.
Heather Morning, Project Manager, Cairngorm Ranger Service
Just to put the record straight Joe G we ARE NOT proposing that you all shit in plastic bags adding to your carbon foot print. I have gone to considerable research and expense to have 'bespoke' bags made for the project. The bags are made of corn starch and are compatable to break down in our Klargester sewage plant here at Cairngorm Mountain. The national park have funded the project which includes £700 for the bags alongside a considerable sum for publicising the project.
Heather Morning, Project Manager, Cairngorm Ranger Service
In reply to Heather @ Cairngorm:
Heather, I am sure your project has the best of intentions.
However, I am baffled that a rather complex solution has been formulated for a problem that is as old as the hills themselves.
I am with Eric 9 Points on this. In brief it may be better to address the cause (commercial organisations) rather than tying ourselves up in costly & complex solutions.
My question is; Who the f' is snow-holing and shitting up there?
Heather, when you find out - get them to stop it!
BTW: Snow holing is not an essential skill of winter mountaineering and should be discouraged at all costs.
regards
Parafinn
Heather, I am sure your project has the best of intentions.
However, I am baffled that a rather complex solution has been formulated for a problem that is as old as the hills themselves.
I am with Eric 9 Points on this. In brief it may be better to address the cause (commercial organisations) rather than tying ourselves up in costly & complex solutions.
My question is; Who the f' is snow-holing and shitting up there?
Heather, when you find out - get them to stop it!
BTW: Snow holing is not an essential skill of winter mountaineering and should be discouraged at all costs.
regards
Parafinn
In reply to Heather @ Cairngorm:
Seems very well thought out to me. If I find my self up there this winter I will be sure to do as requested.
Seems very well thought out to me. If I find my self up there this winter I will be sure to do as requested.
In reply to parafinn:
Why should snow holing be discouraged any more than inconsiderate climbing when a winter line is not in nick?
Who are you to dictate who should and shouldn't get upto in the mountains. Isn't the draw of the montains the freedom from rules and regulations?
Why should snow holing be discouraged any more than inconsiderate climbing when a winter line is not in nick?
Who are you to dictate who should and shouldn't get upto in the mountains. Isn't the draw of the montains the freedom from rules and regulations?
In reply to Heather @ Cairngorm:
I find the apparent misconceptions of some contributors to this thread surprising. What you're doing is great. Well done, and I hope it's successful.
I find the apparent misconceptions of some contributors to this thread surprising. What you're doing is great. Well done, and I hope it's successful.
In reply to Removed User:
Yea a lot are, but a there are a significant minority that are not organised groups as well.
To reply to thread,
I think this a step in the right direction, even if only a few people use it to start with, as it sets a precedent for
1) tidying up after yourself and
2) Provision of facilities (human equivolent of dog turd bins?)
It may not turn out to be the best system but its certainly a start - Loch Avon basin can be just foul when the snow starts to melts, I seem to remember a report that showed how scarily polluted some of the streams round the Shelter stone end of the loch become in spring - undrinkable if you want to stay well was the conclusion.
Stuart
> (In reply to Removed UserJamie B.)
> [...]
>
> OK, organisations mainly then.
> [...]
>
> OK, organisations mainly then.
Yea a lot are, but a there are a significant minority that are not organised groups as well.
To reply to thread,
I think this a step in the right direction, even if only a few people use it to start with, as it sets a precedent for
1) tidying up after yourself and
2) Provision of facilities (human equivolent of dog turd bins?)
It may not turn out to be the best system but its certainly a start - Loch Avon basin can be just foul when the snow starts to melts, I seem to remember a report that showed how scarily polluted some of the streams round the Shelter stone end of the loch become in spring - undrinkable if you want to stay well was the conclusion.
Stuart
In reply to Heather @ Cairngorm:
Sounds great, apologies if I came across as being cynical, I'll certainly be looking to use the system if I need "to go" while in the hills this winter.
> (In reply to Joe G)
Sounds great, apologies if I came across as being cynical, I'll certainly be looking to use the system if I need "to go" while in the hills this winter.
In reply to parafinn:
What else isn't an essential mountaineering skill then - I'm sure you don't need to climb at VIII to be a mountaineer, so maybe we should discourage climbing above say V at all cost as well?
A good many himilayan/alpine expeds use snow holes, or do they not count? Does the same apply to winter camping? Howffing? bothying? they all have the same problem of human waste disposal so should theybe banned too?
Maybe we should just ban all this outdoor malarky full stop and save any confusion eh....
Just how do you get them to stop even if your draconian solution was used? Midnight raids on snowhole sites? the poo police? "excuse me sir, is this YOUR poo..."
The solution is hardly complex - c*ap in bag, put bag in chute to existing sewage system - wheres the complexity?
Substitute the word chute for toilet and you have a rather common place system....
Its used (minus the bags) in huts all over the country, in the alps and beyond and has been for god knows how long, and WORKS.
People will always use the hills, and they will always need the loo - prenteding that you can change by asking groups not to stay overnight outdoors is idiocy.
Heather - well done for trying to tackle the problem rather than avoiding it like paras plan.
>
> BTW: Snow holing is not an essential skill of winter mountaineering and should be discouraged at all costs.
> BTW: Snow holing is not an essential skill of winter mountaineering and should be discouraged at all costs.
What else isn't an essential mountaineering skill then - I'm sure you don't need to climb at VIII to be a mountaineer, so maybe we should discourage climbing above say V at all cost as well?
A good many himilayan/alpine expeds use snow holes, or do they not count? Does the same apply to winter camping? Howffing? bothying? they all have the same problem of human waste disposal so should theybe banned too?
Maybe we should just ban all this outdoor malarky full stop and save any confusion eh....
Just how do you get them to stop even if your draconian solution was used? Midnight raids on snowhole sites? the poo police? "excuse me sir, is this YOUR poo..."
The solution is hardly complex - c*ap in bag, put bag in chute to existing sewage system - wheres the complexity?
Substitute the word chute for toilet and you have a rather common place system....
Its used (minus the bags) in huts all over the country, in the alps and beyond and has been for god knows how long, and WORKS.
People will always use the hills, and they will always need the loo - prenteding that you can change by asking groups not to stay overnight outdoors is idiocy.
Heather - well done for trying to tackle the problem rather than avoiding it like paras plan.
In reply to parafinn:
C'mon Davie,
do you really think we should/could ban snowholing? I've done more snowholing abroad than at home (too windy to use tents) but first 'learnt' to do it in the Cairngorms. The only times I've done it recently were with the wife (her choice - masochistic tendencies) and a school group (they loved it). The school group following the example set by Glenmore Lodge carried all their waste out. Many commercial groups have been doing the same for years now so its unfair to blame the waste problem just on them. Making groups or individuals think about their impact whilst walking/climbing/mountaineering isnt a negative thing IMHO.
In reply to Slugain:
No need to play hunt the turd bag in the morning. The Rangerbase will give you a BDH (screw top plastic bottle) to use to carry the sewage plant degradeable bags in.
In reply to Dr. Gav: Smearing, or 'frosting' is best done in dry sunny environments to dessicate your crap and allow it to eventually blow away.
For more details see the MCofS's mag the Scotish Mountaineer or I've posted the text of the news release on our Blog here: http://icefactor.blogspot.com/2007_11_01_archive.html
Well done Heather for putting the work in to create a (relatively) simple solution.
Al@The Ice Factor
C'mon Davie,
do you really think we should/could ban snowholing? I've done more snowholing abroad than at home (too windy to use tents) but first 'learnt' to do it in the Cairngorms. The only times I've done it recently were with the wife (her choice - masochistic tendencies) and a school group (they loved it). The school group following the example set by Glenmore Lodge carried all their waste out. Many commercial groups have been doing the same for years now so its unfair to blame the waste problem just on them. Making groups or individuals think about their impact whilst walking/climbing/mountaineering isnt a negative thing IMHO.
In reply to Slugain:
No need to play hunt the turd bag in the morning. The Rangerbase will give you a BDH (screw top plastic bottle) to use to carry the sewage plant degradeable bags in.
In reply to Dr. Gav: Smearing, or 'frosting' is best done in dry sunny environments to dessicate your crap and allow it to eventually blow away.
For more details see the MCofS's mag the Scotish Mountaineer or I've posted the text of the news release on our Blog here: http://icefactor.blogspot.com/2007_11_01_archive.html
Well done Heather for putting the work in to create a (relatively) simple solution.
Al@The Ice Factor
In reply to AlH:
Agreed - this is a great initiative.
Unfortunately whilst we have superb outdoor resources we are not very good at looking after them at times. Whether we carry it out or have self composters near bothies etc, ones thing for sure the impact we leave has to be reduced.
Agreed - this is a great initiative.
Unfortunately whilst we have superb outdoor resources we are not very good at looking after them at times. Whether we carry it out or have self composters near bothies etc, ones thing for sure the impact we leave has to be reduced.
In reply to AlH:
For the record in over 35 years of winter mountaineering. I dug a snowhole once, that was whilst on a Dunbartonshire schools course in 1973. Even then we did not stay overnight. No sh'''!
For the record in over 35 years of winter mountaineering. I dug a snowhole once, that was whilst on a Dunbartonshire schools course in 1973. Even then we did not stay overnight. No sh'''!
>(In reply to parafinn)
What would really discourage people from climbing out of condition routes would be if you smeared shit all over the starting moves.
When the routes come into condition you could walk round and wipe them clean again with andrex.
>
> Why should snow holing be discouraged any more than inconsiderate climbing when a winter line is not in nick?
>
> Why should snow holing be discouraged any more than inconsiderate climbing when a winter line is not in nick?
>
What would really discourage people from climbing out of condition routes would be if you smeared shit all over the starting moves.
When the routes come into condition you could walk round and wipe them clean again with andrex.
In reply to the OP: Similar system in NZ running out of Mt Cook village, poo pots for all backcountry trips in winter. Great idea and difficult to argue coherently against. As we've proven above
Ben B
Ben B
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