UKC

Just seen this biography of Bob Dylan on preview at our brand new IMAX cinema at the Odeon Peterborough.

Some people are not keen on the star Timothee, the French American actor, but I thought that he was brilliant. He plays and sings twenty-six songs. It took him 5 years to practice and perfect the style. Covid helped by stalling things.

In reply to veteye:

So far I’ve seen nothing but praise for his performance. Looking forward to seeing it.

In reply to veteye:

How was Monica? 

In reply to veteye:

I haven't seen the film but so far I think Chalomet has been massively overrated. He was a bit shite in Dune.

26 songs? How do they fit that into a 2hour film?

Edited for punctuation. 

In reply to aln:

I would advise just to see the film, and judge him on this performance, and put the other films to one side.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

She sings fairly similarly to Joan Baez, and learned to play the guitar in a very short space of time.

I liked the performance by Elle Fanning, playing Sylvie, the non-musical girlfriend.

In reply to aln:

Judas!

In reply to Lankyman:

You’re a liar !

In reply to coinneach:

I don't believe you!

In reply to Lankyman:

Play f***ing loud!

In reply to veteye:

Saw it this morning in the first showing at our local cinema with other diehard Dylan fans. My mate caught him on the 66 "Judas!" tour at Birmingham Odeon. I almost became a Dylanologist back in the 70s, planning a PhD on Dylan's imagery at Sussex Uni - but decided at the last minute that academe wasn't for me. I was proudly wearing my "Rough and Rowdy Ways" tour T-shirt, having recently seen him on both nights in my home town of Wolverhampton. In sum, what follows is very biased.

We all thought the movie was excellent and found it quite an emotional experience. All the songs are sung and played by the cast, and filmed live. Chalamet gives a charismatic performance. We had to resist the urge to clap at the end of the first couple of numbers. Monica Barbaro as Joan Baez and Edward Norton as Pete Seeger are similarly impressive. Barbaro has a beautiful voice. The songs probably account for about half the run time of the movie. Many are of course in shortened versions.

Obviously characters and incidents have been left out of the story - perhaps most significantly, Sara, Dylan's soon-to-be wife - and a number of scenes are fictionalised. But if you're a serious fan, I think this just adds to the interest. There are some good Easter eggs to spot and tradition is upheld with the obligatory dig at Donovan.  If you're not a Dylan nerd, then none of it will matter: it's an engrossing story featuring fascinating characters at a key moment in our cultural history.

Great movie, which I shall be watching again soon.

In reply to Lankyman:

Well done 😁

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Thanks Andy. I look forward to the film despite being personally divided on whether I even “like” Dylan. He is an incredibly important figure. My only concern is that I saw Inside Llewyn Davis for the first time only a few months ago 😃

In reply to Andy Clarke:

I'm probably less of a die-hard fan than you, but it feels as if it was made for our generation: And for the likes of us, it has the ability to send an occasional shiver down the spine. It's all those triggers in the form of songs, for rich memories, and fond thoughts of out of contact friends and relatives. Nevertheless, I believe that younger generations will be able to assimilate some of the feeling of that emerging innovative music period.

I too will seek to watch again.

In reply to aln:

Weird. Have you seen the film in which he plays a meth addicted son of Steve Carell? Beautiful Boy I think it was called. What about The King? In my view the finest screen Henry V performance since Olivier. What do you think about his portrayal of Wonka? 
Whether you rate him or not, he seems to work hard at his job. 
 

In reply to veteye:

Just seen the film. The "It Ain't Me, Babe" sequence was a masterclass in camera angles and cross-cutting telling almost a different story based on perspective. 
Fanning is essentially playing Suze Rotolo (although I doubt that Rotolo attended Newport 1965); Dylan requested that Suze's name not be used (but in the film, when he's shouting up to her window from the street, the first two times it really sounds like "Suz(i)e"! 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Dylan had split with Rotolo in 1964. He began a serious relationship with Sara Lownds (the Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands) the same year and married her a few months after Newport in 1965. The romantic triangle that features in the movie version of the festival is consequently an invention, but I think it works well. I assume that the farewell scene at the ferry must count as a completely invented scene: Dylan asked that at least one of these be included in the movie.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Agreed that it works well, and your comment on the farewell scene (and by extension the whole "Sylvie post-1964" stuff) was something I had pondered already - an extension of "keeping Suze out of the film" (NB apparently Dylan requesting this was not malice, but the opposite - honouring privacy, for want of a better word)

In reply to coinneach:

My brother in law was at that concert.

In reply to veteye:

I thought so too, but when I saw it yesterday (in Manchester) about half the audience were under 30 and it was some of them who were moved to enthusiastic applause at the end. 
 

I’m generally allergic to Hollywood but I thought this was moving, thoughtful and thoroughly enjoyable. 

In reply to rsc:

I imagine Chalamet’s star power and youth appeal plus the director’s recent track record of mass-appeal films (Logan, Le Mans 66 and Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny) help massively toward bringing in a young audience to a film like this and I am all for it. 

Also nice to see Boyd Holbrook being a little bit to do as Johnny Cash, after his nothing role in the last Indiana Jones (he was also the effective antagonist in Logan)

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Agreed. 
 

I should add that the cast was strong across the board. To pick just one out, I’d only seen Elle Fanning previously in‘The Great’; her performance here was a complete contrast and, I’ll admit it, heartbreaking.

In reply to pencilled in:

And if you want another fantastic but challenging movie check him out the film "Bones and All." It's beyond gruesome in places but Chalamet is great and Mark Rylance is superb in it too. Not one for the faint hearted though.

In reply to lorentz:

I believe that Sir Mark Rylance's wife has just died, yet she helped him with the last series of Wolf Hall, so I presume that she had a fairly rapid disease involvement or similar. I'm sad for him

In reply to rsc:

Huzzah!

In reply to veteye:

Yes, very sad. I saw that too. Finished Wolf Hall recently. Very good both series. I know it's fictitious but really brought the protagonists' and the age of the religious reformation to life. 

In reply to veteye:

Saw it in York two nights ago. I'm not a film buff so had no idea who the lead actor was. I was very impressed with all the performances. Not a Dylan nut either  but I was there when the songs were new and the film reminded me of how great they are. The passionate mood of the Folk movement was evoked and reminded me that the times can be changed for the Good. When Dylan sings "The times they are changing" for the first time to the Newport crowd,  the pentecostal excitement is evoked really well. 

Pete Seeger was right about a human voice being the best liberation weapon. Dylan is shown with the Woody Guthrie slogan "This machine kills fascists" emblazoned on his guitar; La Lutte Continue...

In reply to veteye:

Watched this again today and enjoyed it even more. The decision to film the main actors singing and playing live seems even more striking when contrasted with the use of AI voice cloning in other big movies of the moment, The Brutalist and Emilia Perez. Took more notice of the cinematography and lighting this time and was impressed: I could feel the warmth of the sun and the breeze off the sea when they first arrived in Newport. I'll be interested to hear Gordon's view. Also managed to spot the fleeting snippet of Puff the Magic Dragon. Think I might well finish up 4th Time Around.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

I don’t know about Emilia Perez but from what I have read about The Brutalist, the AI dialogue edit was very minor and essentially no different to a small amount of autotune/pitch shifting on a pop record. Actors performed their lines in Hungarian and some changes were made using an up to date tool. Twenty years ago they have had Hungarian actors come to the ADR suite and speak over the stars’ audio and used various audio mixing to blend the sounds together. Would that be so much better and more real? (the question is not an attack - it’s a genuine earnest question ) 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I agree the use of AI to fine tune the Hungarian dialogue in The Brutalist sounds very minor. It sounds more significant in Emilia Perez, as I think they blended in another singer's vocals as Gascon didn't have sufficient range. Either way, I wasn't really making a judgement, I just thought the determinedly "live" (and now retro?) approach of Complete Unknown made for an interesting contrast, and would probably have met with Bob's approval - not that he's likely to say.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

thanks, Andy, for taking my post in the intended manner and for expanding on the Emilia Perez thing. What are your thoughts on Marni Nixon having gone uncredited for various big musicals eg My Fair Lady (1963)? And how about Rebecca Ferguson taking the role in The Greatest Showman (where Jackman, Williams and Efron of course did their own singing) and being overdubbed? 

In reply to veteye:

One of my oldest friends, who I've known since I was 5, is half Hungarian. His dad escaped the turmoil of the revolution and ended up in Scotland. We're geographically apart but still in contact. I'll ask him his opinion of the film, and the Hungarian language as spoken.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I think Marni Nixon was treated badly by Hollywood. I was interested to see that Bernstein felt so strongly that he gave her a (small!) share of his own royalties from West Side Story, in which she was the uncredited voice of Maria. By contrast, the singer performing as Jenny Lind in The Greatest Showman has been publicly credited and (presumably) fairly paid - so that looks like good progress. Personally, I don't think it matters whether overdubbing/blending is used or not, providing everyone involved is fairly credited and rewarded. On a slight tangent, we also saw Maria yesterday, for which Angelina Jolie reportedly spent seven months in vocal training. Her singing in the movie apparently shifts from essentially lip synching to recordings of Callas to around 70% contribution to the blend. Looking to the future, I guess it could be that musicals that avoid any use of AI vocal enhancement will make a selling point out of being analogue.

ETA: should say that I thought Jolie was impressive in Maria.

In reply to veteye:

Finally saw it last weekend.  I will be going again. Some strong performances, and musically strong.  I though the visuals of early 60s folk scene Greenwich Village were beautifully framed and shot.  

In reply to veteye:

I thought the film - and particularly Chalamet - were brilliant. The time flew past which is always a good sign.

I knew nothing about Dylan and only a couple of songs so that's not a pre-requisite for enjoyment. 

Made me wish I'd been aged 20 and lived in NY in 1961. Looked fun  

In reply to veteye:

Back from what will sadly be a final viewing before it leaves our local cinema. Managed to spot a few more nerdy details. Looking forward to doing some freeze framing when it comes out on DVD. Since my first viewing I've re-watched Dylan's actual Newport performances and replayed all the relevant albums plus the 64 Philharmonic Hall concert and the 66 "Judas" concert. My conclusion after all this? The movie does a great job of capturing what matters.

Heard my favourite review of the movie coming out of the cinema today. A young lad was talking enthusiastically to an older couple I took to be his gran and grandad: "That was really good. I've got to listen to some of his music now."

https://youtu.be/7wSIboHqtXY?si=NVCJsiP6X0JadtZq

In reply to Babika:

A fantastic film, I'd say it was the best music film I've ever seen. I couldn't believe it when the credits came up, I thought we were about halfway through.

I think they should have played Diamonds and Rust over the credits though, rather than just mentioning it. 

In reply to Hooo:

I saw it this weekend and was similarly blown away. My other favourite musical biopic is Walk the Line which I discover was also directed by Mangold. I am very impressed by what young people sometimes do (think, any performance by the Undertones in their prime) so to think of Dylan as a 19/20 year old seeking out and writing a song for Guthrie then visiting him many times makes me smile.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Did you spot “Maria Muldaur”?

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Yes, at the post-gig party. You show an impressive level of knowledge for a non-fan! I was also trying to focus a bit more on Joe Boyd, who went on to produce her, plus some of my all-time favourite folk-rock albums.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Actually I read it in the trivia entry on the film. Did not know of her before. I was interested to see (via you) whether it was a subtle thing.

FWIW I did spot a couple of her LPs recently in a posh Oxfam, so at least now I know who she is! 

In reply to Hooo:

Diamonds and Rust featured on Soul Music(R4), recently: It's worth a listen.

In reply to Babika:

There was still some of that feeling of fun circa 1980, when I had a summer job in Boston (strangely at Harvard School of public health as a vet student), and hitch-hiked to Martha's Vineyard for the weekend and ended up at a Blue Grass festival with a bunch of other students, whom I met on the way. All very relaxed, and they were kind enough to let this stranger stay in their relatives house, without much consideration over the invitation.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Pete Seeger speaks to her very briefly at the party. It might be as brief as "Hi Maria". She might have been in group scenes before but I didn't notice. Probably time for me to shut up now!

In reply to Andy Clarke:

I just saw the film this evening. It is excellent - and Chalomet's performance is a tour-de-force. 

But I immediately wondered what - if any - input Dylan himself might have had on the making on the film. So, regarding this comment:

from where have you found out Dylan's input, and/ or opinions, on the film? I'd be interested to find out more. Thanks.

In reply to abcdefg:

I read interviews with James Mangold in both Variety and Mojo where he talks about meeting with Dylan to discuss the movie. They're both very interesting reads with some fascinating insights. He explains how Dylan read the whole script himself and was happy with it. On skimming back through though I can't find any references to inventing a scene and changing Suze Rotolo's name - so these might be from a YouTube interview I watched. If I remember precisely I'll get back to you.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Thanks.

Now that you've pointed me in the direction, I see the name change referenced in 

https://www.mojo4music.com/articles/stories/a-complete-unknown-review/ :

'Reportedly, the real Dylan introduced some of his own inaccuracies when he gave Mangold notes on the screenplay. He was the one who requested that his ex-girlfriend Suze Rotolo be replaced by the fictional Sylvie Russo"

In reply to veteye:

Saw it last night andf thought it excellent. So much so afterwards I headed straight to my office and picked up my guitar...but no fags!

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Big problem at Oscars re. Best Actor this year, I think, as I believe it will in effect be Chalamet v. Fiennes, both excellent in their very different ways.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Agreed.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

They could hold a conclave to decide who is the winner...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Have you seen The Brutalist, Sing Sing and The Apprentice? 

In reply to Andy Clarke:

It was more than just a name change. e.g. didn't we discuss upthread that although Sylvie goes to Newport in the film, there's no way that Suze would have been there?

In reply to abcdefg:

Trivia section on imdb dot com is generally quite trustworthy and accurate. 

In reply to veteye:

Spoiler Alert:

If they did the winner would be Emilia Pérez

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Yes, there are a great many departures from the historical record - too many to list here. Out of them all, perhaps the most significant in terms of Dylan iconography is moving the "Judas/I don't believe you...(You're a liar)..Play (f**king) loud" from Manchester 66 to Newport 65. But as I said earlier, they seem perfectly justified to me in working to create an engrossing, emotionally engaging movie that captures the iconoclastic nature of Dylan's art.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Watched The Brutalist today. A towering performance by Brody. I admired Chalamet's  more, but as I am sure is perfectly clear by now, I'm hopelessly biased.

In reply to kevin stephens:

The backlash seems to have built up a reasonable head of steam though.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

No. All three are high on my list of ‘must-sees’. Unfortunately very heavy work pressure on latest book is keeping me away from the cinema more than I would like. It seems that Brody in the Brutalist is a very strong contender also for Best Actor.

In reply to kevin stephens:

You will only get this if you’ve read Conclave

In reply to kevin stephens:

Yes, nicely done. The only excuse I can offer for being so slow-witted is that it was late at night and drink had been taken.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Saw it last night and really enjoyed it. V good performances by TC and MB but Ed Norton was wonderful. 

I love Dylan but wouldn't classify myself as a 'Dylan nerd' - though I did get a shiver of excitement at hearing a short blast of 'I'll Keep it With Mine' which I think was recorded at the time but never released until the 90s and is better know as being covered by Nico.

Yeah so a lot of stuff didn't quite happen as the film shows ("Judas!") but that seems in keeping with Dylan's character and his own description/recollection of his life...

Only downside was that this era has been well trawled over by various books/documentaries etc before so it all felt very familiar...there was a (I think) BBC documentary I obsessively rewatched in the 90s where Al Kooper was interviewed about his 'spontaneous' organ playing on LARS and declined to comment, saying he'd told the story so many times he's got tired of it talking about it (which to a teenager felt like the coolest possible response). But of course a big deal was made of this 'scene' in the film (and I can completely understand why).......

In reply to JB:

Well spotted! I don't know if you know it, but my favourite version of this is by Fairport Convention, with the thrilling power of a young Sandy Denny's voice embellished by some beautiful understated guitar from Richard Thompson:

https://youtu.be/nMSMUuLxT8o?si=Tn_o1gbFYTUnmxye

And it was produced by Joe Boyd... who could be glimpsed briefly in the movie on the sound desk at Newport. Rock's rich tapestry.

In reply to veteye:

I saw it on Friday. I really enjoyed it, it didn't feel anywhere near as long as it was. I'm not a Dylan fan per se, but I do like his early acoustic stuff, so pretty much the period the film covers. I suspect if I was a proper Dylan fanatic I'd be a lot more critical of the film but aside from his tempestuous relationship with Joan Baez (of whom I am a fan) and the Newport electric thing I'm not very familiar with his story or his oeuvre. I did see him live in Newcastle in the early 80s though, supported by Santana and Lindisfarne no less.

I was very impressed with the performances especially Monica Barbaro's singing. Scoot McNairy was born to play the role of end-of-life Woody Guthrie! 

In reply to Andy Clarke:

One of the best films I've seen in ages - there were so many credible glimpses into what has to be one of the most extraordinary creative lives of the 20th C. (I agree with the bloke who said something like 'he's not that good, only as good as Shakespeare or something'. He makes no sense but you understand every word.)

What a giant Pete Seeger was. But towards the end, when the band (the Band?) are getting into their groove, how he is left behind: a roadie says 'You can't turn it down, they sound effing great!!!' And they do. And there's just a glimpse of Dylan, towards the end, just happy (seemingly a rare state of mind for him) to be in a band of like minded musicians... 'It's more fun to be in a band' as someone says, and you get it.

In reply to veteye:

I belatedly went to see it last week. I've been a Dylan music fan for years but never looked into his story in the detail that some do so I can't comment on the accuracy of that but I thoroughly enjoyed it as a film.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

I'm obsessed with the VU and love Nico but never knew about the Fairport Convention cover...I'm off to check it out! 

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Not 'The Band' (that was later, 1966 I think) but a pulled-together crew from the Paul Butterfield Blues Band.  

In reply to JB:

Another band well deserving of obsession. Although I retired my turntable into the attic many years ago, I couldn't bear to get rid of my original vinyl of the first album, with the actual peelable banana sticker on the cover. 

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Yes - I think it's similar to what TS Eliot was getting at when he said genuine poetry can communicate before it is understood: you understand it on an emotional level, whether or not you can explain it intellectually.

In reply to SNC:

I long ago bought a second hand Coliseum (Jazz/Rock band if you don't know them), and the inside sleeve had (I presume) a drug-hazed series of doodles/sketches and names. One of those is Butterfield Blues. Such things make second hand items so much more interesting and valuable.

Sadly I never saw the original Coliseum, but I did see Colisseum II at Glasgow University Men's Union, with the totally impressive Jon Hiseman doing a couple of incredible drum solos.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Well that was a reminder of the past for me, and a good start to the day. Pity that Sandy Denny died in a tragic accident (as I understand it ) when I was really young.

Once when a student I and my brother went to see Fairport Convetion on a Friday night (Glasgow Men's Union again), which was a brilliant set, then topped that with seeing Eric Clapton and Muddy Waters on the Saturday night at the superb old venue in Glasgow with the huge and high stage whose name slips my memory and is long gone. A brilliant weekend.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Always felt a bit sorry for Dave Van Ronk, who had the misfortune to watch his protege Dylan, who he thought wasn't as good a guitar player as he was, just zoom past him and achieve fame and fortune beyond his wildest imaginings.

He retreated into curmugeonly grumbling. 'All along the Watch Tower is a rubbish song, you don't go along a watchtower.' He had a point!

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Yet Hendrix didn't notice that concept. All along the battlements?

In reply to SNC:

Yes, The Band - formerly known as The Hawks - didn't back Dylan until his US tour later in 65 and then his legendary World tour in 66 (although drummer Levon Helm sat a lot of it out). I think they finally adopted the name The Band "officially" in 68 for the release of their debut Music from the Big Pink, another album that had a profound influence on popular music, like Highway 61 and the Velvets' first.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I imagine a wide tower set in a frontier wall, with four or five princes peering from the tower's battlements, looking out over barren landscape.

Van Ronk might have been better to keep his powder dry for Bob's later output, which would certainly serve up some more deserving targets!

In reply to Andy Clarke:

My favourite song off one of my favourite albums

In reply to veteye:

No Oscars at all for this one, from eight nominations. That’s not a record (I think The Color Purple holds that, with eleven) but it has to be top five surely 

edit - joint seventh, I think! Alongside The Elephant Man and The Remains of the Day, and behind True Grit, The Irishman, Gangs of New York, American Hustle, The Color Purple and The Turning Point.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

The Oscars are up their own arse, more than ever these days

In reply to kevin stephens:

Do you disagree with any particular wins in categories where A Complete Unknown was competing ? 

In reply to kevin stephens:

Are you frustrated that you didn't have your wedding filmed by the best script writer/director/producer of the best film when he was filming such things and learning the film editing trade?

In reply to veteye:

No.

But it would have been really cool to have it portrayed by Aardman Animations 

In reply to kevin stephens:

I must have been in something of a grump when I watched Anora as I only managed the odd smirk. Thought The Brutalist was better but at one point did feel that a large concrete block of symbolism had fallen off and hit me on the head. Preferred The Substance to either. Too biased to be taken seriously about A Complete Unknown.