UKC

apparently some silly bint has used the "n" word that I believe is latin for brown. Darent repeat it myself

In reply to Fawksey:

Latin for 'black' anyway. Who did that and in what context? I do like a good public pillorying of these arrogant TV execs who pretend to be so superior and right on.

Got a link?

In reply to Steve Parker:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20070607/tuk-bb-housemate-axed-for-racist...

The first brain-dead contestant leaves............

In reply to Steve Parker: Emily said to coloured housemate "are you pushing it out nigger"

In reply to Steve Parker: I stand corrected, we had a dye called "nigger brown"

In reply to Fawksey:

Was it broadcast, or covered up?

Channel 4 can't be held responsible for what the housemates do or say, but they are responsible for how they respond to it.

In reply to Fawksey:

Lets hope this absurd spectacle finally implodes.

In reply to MartF:

I'd settle for a good old explosion with lots of shrapnel...

In reply to Ridge:

If ever we needed a suicide bomber to strike again it is now and in this house.

I'd do it myself but I've got a Christening to attend this Sunday......and a cat to feed.

In reply to Simon22:

Absolutely. CH4 would love the viewing figures, the Islamist would get to kill a collection of misfit kuffirs beyond his wildest dreams, chavs everywhere could lay wreaths to their hearts content, I'd have a good chuckle and woolsack could prove it was all done with a top secret thermobaric weapon.

In reply to MttSnr: I dont know if they broadcasted it but they have published the transcript of the conversation and removed "Emily" from the show

In reply to Fawksey:

Sounds like a huge over-reaction, based upon reading the story in that link which suggests that it was an attempt at banter, rather than malice.

In reply to Fawksey:

is this extract from the yahoo news piece particularly PC:

"a posh blonde Bristol student and fan of the Conservative Party"

Sounds like it's inviting (inciting?) people to pre-judge Emily Parr badly. What does her blondeness have to do with anything? They (yahoo) are playing to stereotypes.

In reply to Blue Straggler: Thats the media for you. We do it ourselves too.

Though i do believe that "stereotypes" do exist

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I agree. From reading the news article, it seems she said "nigga", not "nigger".

As BB would say in its Geordie voice "you decide"

Emily: (referring to Charley dancing/pushing her hips forward) You pushing it out you nigger.
Nicky: (shocked laughter) Em, I can't believe you said that.
Charley: You are in trouble.
Emily: Don't make a big thing out of it then. I was joking.
Charley: I know you were... but that's some serious shit, sorry.
Emily: Why?
Charley: Oh my god. I'm not even saying it.
Nicky: Just don't talk about it anymore.
Emily: I was joking
Charley: Do you know how many viewers would watch that?
Nicky: Okay, don't make a big deal out of it.
Charley: Fancy you saying that. I can't believe you said that.
Emily: Somebody has already used that word in this house.
Charley: No way. (Pause) Yeah, me. I'm a nigger.

Nicky laughs.

Charley: I am one. Fancy you saying it. I know maybe you see it in a rap song. Maybe you and your friends sit there saying it.
Emily: I'm friendly with plenty of black people.
Nicky: And you call them niggers?
Emily: Yeah and they call me niggers. They call me wiggers as well.
Nicky: I'm quite shocked.
Charley: I'm f*cking in shock.
Emily: It's not a big deal though is it?
Charley: Not for us it ain't. F*ck me.

In reply to brothersoulshine:

Aye, her "poshness" probably let her down, maybe she sounded too much like a colonial plantation wife and not enough like a "with-it" gangsta kid

I am quite interested in this story - if she's really been removed simply for using a slightly-ill-advised word in a non-offensive way, then C4 have become very gutless.

In reply to Fawksey:

Well without visual cues or voices I can't comment in full knowledge, but it sounds again like a massive over-reaction.
I'd be chucked out straight away for calling (in banter!) a gay person "a big gay puff", even though I get away with this in real life

In reply to Blue Straggler: I expect Ch4 are rather nervous considering all the hooha in the last programme.

I have to say that whilst I do use several non PC words especially in relation to gay people (maybe they have a better sense of humour, more tolerant?) i have always been aware never ever to use the word nigger. To use it on a TV show where your every movement is being watched by millions was very stupid indeed.

In reply to Blue Straggler: I wouldnt get too sympathetic. For someone who said when she entered the house "I dont do losing" and flattered herself she was the intelligent contestant it was a remarkably stupid thing to say - anyone with an ounce of common sense would realise it might well cause offence, you certainly wouldnt say it on public TV to someone you had know less than a week. And extrememly arrogant I think, to just assume that its ok to use that sort of language to someone you barely know.

In reply to Fawksey:

Exactly, that is why they have reacted in this way, but I still feel it's an over-reaction.
This situation is, I think, rather different to the one in CBB which did highlight cultural ignorance (and, arguably, racial prejudice - but that discussion's been done). This was one use of a word.

Would Emily Parr have been in the same trouble had she been black? Or (say) Chinese? I think SHE'S the one on the receiving end of racial discrimination here (which is why I am a little interested in this story)

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Fair enough. I am commenting out of context, having never seen it. I only know what's been on this thread and on the yahoo news link. Perhaps that puts me in a better (impartial / Devil's advocate) position to, er, "judge"? I don't know!

In reply to Fawksey:

Quick straw poll -

Who, on this forum, uses, and feels it OK to use the "N" word in normal day to day conversation?

I don't.

In reply to Blue Straggler: its all about contect though isnt it. If you use a term with gay mates and they think its ok thats one thing. But if you called a colleague a "big gay puff" during a meeting with customers, you would be in deep trouble. And as for on public TV....

In reply to Blue Straggler:

A cynical ploy to increase the viewing figures. Surely they have must enough editorial control to supress this.
Either that or just sh*ting themselves.

In reply to blueshound: nope. and I think theres a difference between black people using a term in banter between themselves - and a lot of black people DONT think its ok - and white people using it to black people.

In reply to Blue Straggler: I understand where you are coming from but I do disagree.

Turn it on its head, could CH4 really have left her in there after using the word nigger?

I have always thought of it as a horrible word, i dont like anyone using it even coloured people. For me its probably that its a word most often used by people who I find offensive if they are white or black.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Big Brother is raising the public consciousness about so many issues. Good on em I say, very little else gets kids debating quite to this extent.

In reply to blueshound: I dont use it either. One of my colleagues uses it on an almost daily basis when we drive past asians on our way to site. When it does it makes my skin crawl and I have to suppress an urge to fill his face with my fist, probably not so much because of his use of the word but because of his lack of intelligence.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

It's interesting that so-called reality shows are becoming less and less real and more and more sanitised.

I think this differs from the celebrity stuff in that it was an inappropriate word used without any malice, whereas the shilpa shetty conversations were clearly in a racist context.

C4 need to define to their contestants and us exactly where the line of 'offensive' lies - presumably they're still happy for housemates to be offensive in other ways, as in previous series? Not only happy for them to do it, but happy to broadcast it too.

In reply to hutchm:

Bang on. You put it more efficiently than I (OK I was off a tangential crusade to "save Emily" )

Fair points raised by everyone, no I wouldn't use "big gay puff" to someone in a business meeting, and I wouldn't use "nigga" unless very very very sure of context (and even then I wouldn't like it).

But according to Emily in the transcript, she does speak like that. So that is reality. Gaah

In reply to Blue Straggler: On balance I dont think for a moment that she used the word as an insult. I dont think Charly took it as one either. However as soona s she said it those around her woere immediately shocked that she had used it and all were very aware that it was lets say a huge "gaff" You would have hoped (obviousley in vain) that people wouldnt be so stupid.

I dont think CH4 had any option in light of events.

In reply to Fawksey:
>coloured people.

WTF ? Back in the 70`s...

In reply to Fawksey:

I think they could have done something a lot more positive. Perhaps (and I may look back on this and think "how facetious was I being?" - this is just off the top of my head...) given her a ticking-off in the diary room, broadcast the ticking-off, and set a Housemates' Task to have a panel discussion about the usage of certain words?

In reply to Fawksey:

Ah, I thought maybe you meant a senior exec at C4 had been overheard describing Moira Stewart as a lazy n*gger or something, Big Ron-stylee. I was looking forward to a lynching.

In reply to lummox: hey Im no expert and am sure in all walks of life I may through my ignorance cause offence and reveal deep prejudices.

So tell me is their a collective noun for non whites? Please tell me the descriptive word I should have used?

In reply to Steve Parker: I thought she was Scottish?

In reply to Fawksey:

I think some Americans still use that godawful 'people of colour', like everyone else is an albino or something. 'Black' is the safest thing to use.

In reply to Fawksey:

Don't be daft, all Scots have bright ginger hair, even the black ones. I think the Irn Bru does it.

In reply to Fawksey:

You're supposed to know what country they are "from" at a glance! In fact if you don't know your Bengalis from your Punjabs etc, you go straight to Race Hate Jail

In reply to lummox:

Come on Im still waiting for you to let me know how I should have described them? Everyone else has managed. Please dont tell me you dont know either?

In reply to all:

If, during conversation in Big Brother, someone talks about their black friends and says "yeah, they all call themselves 'nigga', it's funny", would that be bad?

What if they said "It's OK for black people to call each other 'nigga' in a Spike Lee film but not in a Quentin Tarantino film"

Would your answers to these (and similar variations thereof) depend upon whether the "someone" were white or black?

In reply to Blue Straggler: You have admirably pointed out that context is everything.

In reply to Blue Straggler: Samuel L Jackson frequently uses M. F. Nigga in Tarantino films?!
Two guests on the predictable Five Live ' debate' this morning, One from a British black magazine, other from the States. The Brit took seriously the insult to all coloured people re the 'N Word'!
The black American couldnt have cared less about a programme with a crowd of dotty teenage girls running around half dressed........
You choose

In reply to Fawksey:

Doesn't matter what she said or who she said it to, the other girls were shocked and said so, and she should have immediately apologised and readjusted her values, instead of accusing them of not taking 'a joke'.

In any case I'm glad she's out. Wouldn't have expected anything less from such a silly little madam that announced to us that 'there's a new kind of music called indie around' (jeeze thanks lady, is that what I was listening to a good decade ago!)

She is generally all round arrogant and ignorant and CH4 have done the other housemates a favour by removing her irritating little life from their game!

In reply to Fawksey:

Emily was referring and speaking to Charly, therefore, it should have read: Emily said to Charly...

In reply to midgelt: Now you mention it I think its equally annoying that C4 chose the most vacuous bunch of shallow, vain airheads they could find for their virtually all female household. I'm surprised they havnt just come straight out and announced a "this week, housemates, your weekly task is to take your bikini tops off" task yet.

In reply to Bingly Bong: I wasnt using it in the context that you were, in relation to a single person where you are quite correct in that she should have addressed her by name. I used the phrase "coloured people" when referring to all those people who arent white.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie: I have to say CH4's selection of women doesnt really show the gender in a very good light does it?

In reply to dek:

Spike Lee publicly chastised Jackson for this, as if Spike Lee is da lawwww

In reply to Blue Straggler: Jackson can do no wrong !

In reply to Fawksey: I was referring to your post to Steve Parker at 11.06. I was just responding to your quote.

In reply to Fawksey:

like others, haven't seen it but my thought is that the 'you' in that makes a big difference

In reply to rich:

So, in effect, being a posh girl and trying to construct a proper sentence led to her downfall...

In reply to hutchm:

er, no - i think using a proscribed word in the context of the last 'crisis' led to her downfall

i was just commenting on the form of words

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Absolutely! My fave comment so far is by Leslie: 'I just don't know how you can talk for so long about hair straighteners (or something to that effect).....dam, I hate it that I know so much about it, oh... I don't care I was tired from surfing!

I was actually curious to watch a whole house of girls, without guys, to see if the cliche 'If women ruled the world' would actually materialize. Alas, I think you've nailed the problem - vacuous airheads do not make for particularly fascinating citizens.

In reply to rich:

Could be, could be. But like others, actually hearing it might make a difference to US! (see the denouement of Coppola's "The Conversation" to see just HOW much meaning can be lost when a vocal inflection is not picked up)

In reply to Bingly Bong: ah right sorry. yes normally Charly would have sufficed but I was wanting S parker to know that the recipient was black. I could ahve written it better maybe adding that info in brackets after?

In reply to midgelt:

Yeah, I think thats what pisses me off - the first thing that sprung to mind when selecting an all female houshold was "lets make them ornamental but stupid" thus confirming every equally half witted adolescent boy's prejudices. giggle giggle tee hee, lets all talk about our hair, ooh quick, lets all flutter our eyelashes at the sole man. Because, you know, thats what all women are like left to themselves. On BB planet.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie: ah well, I suppose thats what happens when you get sucked into watching drivel like bb ( only channel hopping on breakfast TV, mind). I should just learn my lesson and steer clear!

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie: Its all relative though. Some may think watching BB is bad, i actually think watching Breakfast TV is bad where my father considers ITV in general to be off limits and my uncle Philip who happens to be the most affluent and informed amongst my close family doesnt own a TV at all!

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

True, BUT, before we pass final judgement, I did notice something curious just flicking through the profile photos on this site - well, have a look for yourself, what do you notice about the 'nature' of the photos that the guys and the girls submit freely to this site to represent themselves???

Now, speaking as an evolutionary biologist I would say that this is a fairly classic division: guys display their best action shots, while the girls display their best sociability shots. Maybe the BB girls are just extreme examples?

In reply to Fawksey: ooh, i hate that, "we dont have a tv" moral purity. makes me want to run indoors, put my feet on the sofa without taking my muddy shoes off, and watch cartoons.

In reply to Fawksey: Ha! I dont think you needed to emphasise skin colour - it was pretty obvious even for a dumbo like me!

In reply to Fawksey: What a bunch of w@nkers the execs are at channel 4. By the sounds of the transcripts emily had relaxed in the house and was bantering like friends do and the black girl in the house was shocked because of what people outside the house would think rather than because she was bothered herself.

In reply to midgelt: ah, but how good is your sample? how did you select the photos to look at? coz I'm guessing that users with obviously "girly" names (and I'm not mentioning any in case I upset anyone) are more likely to do the "sociability shot" thing. Mind you I'm sure theres some truth in it - after all, girls are brought up to worry about what they look like whereas boys are brought up to act in a 'manly' fashion. And I'm not claiming to never have discussed a hairstyle, but a day in a house with the BB girls would reduce me to hiding under the bed singing "La la can't hear you"

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie: well using the we dont have a TV as one end of the scale the other end must be "we have a 46 inch plasma screen"

I would therefore like to have a small portable TV in an out of the way corner of the room where it doesnt take centre stage and gives the impression "I sometimes watch TV on occasion"

In reply to tatty112:

you're utterly clueless aren't you?

In reply to Fawksey:


I hate it when people use the infrequency of their TV watching as some sort of bage of honour. So you want your TV habits to 'give an impression' of you? Do you leave dead clever books around on your coffee table when people visit or carry a copy of Ulysses suffed into your jacket pocket when you go to the pub?

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Granted it was not a fully replicated, statistically powerful sample, worthy of a Nature publication, but still, wherever there was a photo that stood out amongst the action ones as more of a myspace type one it was usually from a female profile. It just struck me as a fairly obvious natural division and one I've interpreted in my wily ways as a biologist studying sexual selection!!


(a day in a house with the BB girls would reduce me to hiding under the bed singing "La la can't hear you")



oh yes definitely, actually I think ANY day in the BB house would send me to the nearest crawlspace...except when they have assault course type tasks to do, they look fun.

In reply to Tyler: no, I sort of understand. I hate the idea of the TV being completely centre stage as though my life revolves around it. So I'v got a decent size tv but it aint bang in the middle. I couldnt care less if other people have a huge telly, I just dont want it to dominate my own living room.

In reply to Tyler:


good grief no, 'Finnegans Wake' is the one to REALLY carry to make for good discussion, meaning that either your opponent doesn't know the text and is b**sh**tting, or does in fact have the most crazy arse way of reading that they actually did manage to interpret it!

In reply to Dux:

Why so? tatty112 is kind of saying what I'd been suggesting, just in less eloquent terms. So you're effectively calling me clueless too. Could you elaborate please (serious request - not being petulant)?
?

In reply to Blue Straggler: Ooooooooooooooooh, you used some lovely big words in that sentence

Those of you who are in such a kerfuffle about Emily Parr's use of the word "nigga" and more generally the "(mis)appropriation" of the word...

Did you ever watch 'Nathan Barley'?
Did you find it funny when clueless Nathan greeted people (almost always white) with "Alright m'nigga?"
Or did you feel that C4 were being puerile and insensitive? Did you complain to C4?

In reply to Blue Straggler:

So you agree with tatty12 that Channel 4 executives are w**nkers and that they should allow housemates using rascist language to stay in the house? And all this following the Offcom ruling and the 40000 plus complaints relating to Shipla Shetty. What would you do in the same circumstances?

Whether Charley took offense or not this is still one of the most derogatory words in the English language. For a priveledged white girl to think that she can use the word even jokingly with black person she barely knows is incredibily crass.

Yes I watched Nathan Barley and yes I found it funny. One is an acted comedy and one is reality.

In reply to Dux:

If that's reality, God save us all.

More importantly, if that's a fair reflection of reality outside Elstree, why should we be coy about broadcasting such a depiction?

In reply to hutchm:

Now that's a good question, it is after-all supposed (or was the original point of the show) to be about sticking people together then observing how they get on, what they do, what they say, how they deal with it. It's supposed to be a sociological show.

Channel 4 are in no position to keep Emily in the house after the last celebrity Big Brother and after the OFCOM slating. Channel 4 completely mishandled the Shilpa/racism row, worse they held back the "limerick abuse" from the public. They had no option this time but to remove Emily.

In reply to Dux:

All of Ireland will be outraged...

In reply to Dux:

So it's OK for C4 to knowingly broadcast repeated instances of a priviliged white boy using "one of the most derogatory words in the English language" in the name of fictional comedic entertainment, but at the same time they are obliged to exclude a young woman caught off-guard using an ill-judged word which offended nobody around her?


You keep describing Emily as "priveledged white" but Charley as simply "black". Think about that.

In reply to hutchm:

not so funny: http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Media/documents/2007/05/24/CBBtranscr...

In reply to Dux: And you think its fair that a silly 18 year old who realised they'd said something stupid is now going to be held up as a rascist for the rest of their life.......

In reply to tatty112:

You jest? she'll be forgotten in a couple of weeks... (or at least by the end of BB...)

In reply to marie: Do you think?..................

In reply to tatty112: First housmate to be kicked out for a racist act!

In reply to tatty112:

Where are you getting "racist act" from? The intention isn't clear and mostly it comes across as ignorance.

marie's correct: Emily's hardly going to have it held against her or find it impairs her life. The circles she moves in will not see anything wrong in it. Not like being black and going through life with people always able to use that word to insult you.

In reply to Dux:

I am sure "black people" around the world are delighted to have you crusading against their downtrodden existence! Especially with your wonderful presentation skills and careful use of the English language!

In reply to Dux:

I read the transcript. Do you think C4 should have broadcast it, putting words of racist rhyming slang into the mouths of schoolchidren etc?

In reply to Tyler: Jeez Tyler I wouldnt get so het up about it, you seem to have taken it rather out of context. It was a hypothetical discussion considering I actually have a middle to large digital TV that does in fact dominate the living room, I wish TV didnt dominate myself as much as it does because I actually wish i did a lot more other things instead that actually require a bit more effort on my part than pressing a button.

It may be old fashioned of me and maybe even snobbish but yes I do regard people with a bit more respect who read books rather than just watch TV.

Ulysses was a bit much for me but i did manage Portrait of an Artist and Dubliners. I dont have a coffee table but there is a collection of poetry books next to the bog if that counts

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I guiess it doesnt help but I dont expect BB to be a role model for my children I hopefully will be responsible for that

In reply to Fawksey:


Sounds like an intersting house! If that's what's by the toilet, we can only imagine what's in your bookcases - advanced metaphysics textbooks?!?!

In reply to niggle: more poetry books, mountaineering books and old angling books.

By the bed is Hemingways For Whom the Bell Tolls and Tom Patey's biography aswell as a colection of dirty wine glasses

there are no f*ck books under the bed

In reply to Dux:

What really concerns me about that is that the producers clearly flagged the ongoing behaviour as racist - then broadcast it anyway and allowed it to continue.

In reply to Fawksey:


Maybe she was on the toilet at the time.

In reply to niggle: As far as I am aware and the news on Sky did say aswell, that CH4 have not yet broadcast the incident, but will tonight

In reply to Fawksey:


Yeah? Maybe I'm wrong. I think that the complaints were about stuff that was broadcast though weren't they?

In reply to Fawksey:

I'd hardly call it het up, at least no more than we all tend to about any trivial subject on here.


Maybe rightly but I tend to find my respect diminishing whenever 'these people' find it necessary to tell the rest of us how they never watch telly/the X factor/Big Brother etc


Thats not really something to brag about, I'm a Big Brother watching, Heat reading, celebrity gossip mongering boderline retard and even I've read them!


I know what you mean, I'm forever running out of bog paper as well.

In reply to niggle: CH4 binned her in the early hours of the morning after watching footage not yet shown. They did release however a transcript of the conversation and will screen it tonight. I believe they acted before any complaints were recieved if indeed any have been made at all.

In reply to Tyler: whatever

Now THAT'S a good thread: alternatives to bog paper!!

In reply to midgelt: Tickets to the European cup final in Athens?

In reply to Dux:

That is the way teenagers speak to each other. Dux you seemed to be the one who felt it was racist. I was merely responding to what came across in your posts.


Sorry just remind me what happened to Jade (ok her case was a lot worse).

The circles she moves in will not see anything wrong in it.

Not like being black and going through life with people always able to use that word to insult you.

Like some black guy said on the news he doesn't have a problem with being called a N........ in the context of (for example) 'word up nigger' the problem is with people using it as an insult, 'you stupid nigger'

In my view from the transcripts hse was clearly using it in the former way therefore channel 4's reaction is OTT and has drawn negative attention to a silly 18 year old who doesn't really deserve to be branded a racist....(which despite what you say she will be)

In reply to Fawksey:

Oooo, don't know enough about footie to know how sarcastic that is!

Ummm....Daily Meldrew??

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Exactly! I want my 'Just Shoot Me' back! Right now, dammit!

In reply to tatty112:

I think Dux has gone, maybe to read about Windrush or read Uncle Tom's Cabin. Or watch a compilation of "The Man From Del Monte" adverts - now HE knew how treat those wonderful blacks

In reply to Fawksey:

A CH4 stooge after recent events?

In reply to Blue Straggler: I think Emily parr mistakenly thought she was down with the bredren and could use THAT WORD as proof of her coolness. little did she understand the historical context of 'nigger' very negative in it's asociation with slavery and the forcable removal of people from their homes, denying them their names and freedom and culture. Nigger was used as a term to depersonalise the slave making him/her a possesion to be worked to death, raped and abused. This is why the word has such deep power to offend, despite its apparently innocuous latin meaning of 'brown'.

In reply to Fawksey: Surely she can't have missed all the publicity over the last BB - anyone with the slightest bit of intelligence would realise that it might be a good idea to avoid saying anything that could possibly be interpreted as being racially offensive in any way.

I don't think BB had much choice given the sponsors they lost over the last one - they're not going to risk losing more money!!

In reply to HC~F:

I think a lot of people are forgetting is that it's hard to watch what you say 24 hours a day, especially in a setting like BB where you're encouraged to drink and exist on less sleep than normal, and are thrown into close living quarters with a range of people too diverse probably for any of us to really get along with.

In reply to Blue Straggler: nigger is a big word to use in any circumstance particulary to someone who is balck... i would't advise you trying it.

In reply to blueshound:


Well you just chickened out, and used "the "N" word" instead. When you meant to say:

Who, on this forum, uses, and feels it OK to say "nigger" in normal day to day conversation?

Which is a perfectly valid use of the word "nigger", and could be used in day to day conversation.

I've used it twice now - the word nigger, that is (now 3 times) and in none of these contexts is it in any way discriminatory or derogative. It is purely and simply discussing the use of a word.

In reply to Dominion:

BTW, does anyone feel that if Emily had made a comment about gingers, red-heads, or blondes, she would have been evicted?

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6725653.stm

and the discussion of it on this forum:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=246407

In reply to Dominion: BTW, does anyone feel that if Emily had made a comment about gingers, red-heads, or blondes, she would have been evicted? To my knowledge none of the above have been dicriminated against, abused denied their names and heritage, raped and abused to the degree, as an industry and an enterprise, as 'niggers'... well maybe women.

In reply to flyingfox:

You mean 'bints' surely :-P

In reply to Alison Stockwell: exactly so!

To my knowledge none of the above have been dicriminated against, abused denied their names and heritage, raped and abused to the degree, as an industry and an enterprise, as 'niggers'... well maybe women.

And black people/coloureds/afroeuropeans/niggaz. Niggers nowadays is just a label the same as all the other names. Yes it has a history (and i don't necessarily agree with my next point) but i think Emly proved that the history of the word doesn't mean anything to many people today.

In reply to tatty112: well then feel free to use it in your general conversation... see what occurs

In reply to Alison Stockwell: What's a 'bint'? Is that like a posh burd?

In reply to Glyn Jones:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bint

In reply to Dominion: Ah! A bitch! Quite a few on here!

In reply to Glyn Jones: quite a few tossers too

In reply to flyingfox: I suspect that counts all the men on here!

In reply to blueshound:

in my form at school there are only 3 of us that are white, we are allowed to be honorary asians, and all of us use words which could be construed as racist, but because we are all friends, it isn't.

i don't think its a word that is racist, i think its in the way it is said, so i think C4 are wrong, - if said in a derogatory or insulting manner, anything can be offencive and racist, and i thikn by reacting the way they have, it just helps to blow race issues completely out of proportion - they have created a problem which wasn;t there

holxxx

In reply to Ridge:
and woolsack could prove it was all done with a top secret thermobaric weapon.


Im going to be laughing about that one all night.

but why not just crash a plane into the house and place some dummy missile parts around the crater?

In reply to Glyn Jones:

>I suspect that counts all the men on here!

and women.

In reply to Glyn Jones: i suspect the same

In reply to Dominion: we are all equal in our tosserdom

In reply to Dux:

i don't really understand the problem, when Jade said it about Shilpa she said it in a derogatory manner, they wern't friends, and it wasnt meant in a nice way.


why is it one of the most derogatory words in the english language? because peple use it in a derogatory term?? i can think of a lot of more derogatory words, but i thikn a word is a word, and context is everything, if said in a light hearted manner, amongst friends, then i don't see there is a problem.

the only issue i can see is the argument they only knew each other for a week, but perhaps she just started to relax and be herself again, and she was treating her new friends the same way she would those at home?

just my opinon though
holxxx

In reply to holly:

you are not black and therefore have little idea of the offence the word nigger can cause since it has so many strong associations with slavery

In reply to flyingfox: If charley wasn't offended what gives you the right to be offended on her behalf. Its very patronising. I'm sure if charley was offended and felt it had been said in a derogatory manner she would have been quite forward in saying so.

In reply to tatty112: how do you now charley wasn't offended... perhaps she's too polite or well brought up to show it

In reply to flyingfox:

no, i'm not, so maybe i don't have much idea of it, but these day's, how many black people have actually been subjected to any of the bad connotations of the word? slavery etc? i know none of my friends do. to them it's a word. it can be used offencivley, by a less imaginitive bully, but mostly its just used as a word, and unless used in malice it's not taken as such.

i don't thikn its up to you to take offence on other people's behlaf. if the girl emily aimed it at (can't remember her name) isn't offended - why can you be?

holxxx

In reply to flyingfox:
how do you now charley wasn't offended... perhaps she's too polite or well brought up to show it

hahahahahahahha nice one.......

In reply to flyingfox:

Oh for Heavens' sake. Even from the transcript, without the benefit of visual or audio cues, it's clear that it didn't bother her.

What race do you think I am, btw?

In reply to Fawksey: Just watched it.......Can someone explain to me how its fine for charley to refer to herself as a nigger over and over again but it wasn't ok for emily to call her it.......

In reply to tatty112:

Reclamation. Same reason gay people are allowed to call themselves 'queers', but you'd better not try it.

In reply to tatty112:

I think thats the whole problem with that word.

In reply to Blue Straggler:


Apart from bringing up 5 or 6 times that she was "really shocked"? I'd call that bothered.

In reply to ranger*goy: Just listening to chaley going on about how much she likes emily and she knows it was a joke etc....

In reply to Niall: i think that is spelled bovvered

In reply to Niall:

Maybe more shocked that she said it on big brother after what happened last time. Shocked that she was so dumb.

In reply to Blue Straggler:
if you had seen the program you would have heard what followed- Charley was clearly shocked, and repeatedly said as much

In reply to tatty112: Because she realised she is in a 'competition' with her? I hardly think there was a racist motive in what she said, more to do with the way she stuck her arse out when jigging about dancing.

In reply to Niall:



She was doing that cos shes a bit of a bitch and wanted everyone to know about it

In reply to Niall:

Emily: It's not a big deal though is it?
Charley: Not for us it ain't. F*ck me.

In reply to Fawksey: Charley: it weren't racist it was just a f***ing joke

In reply to morphus:

Fair enough.

I still think (having still not seen any footage, alright) that Emily Parr is a victim of racial discrimination and that if a black person had said "Are you pushing it out, you nigger" to Charley, this action would not have been taken.

That's another question I've asked a couple of times on this thread, which (unless I missed a post) nobody has addressed.

Would this whole thing have been acceptable had Emily Parr been black? Or even from another "UK minority ethnicity"?

In reply to Blue Straggler: I agree having watched her last chat with BB shes been made a scapegoat and a victim, I couldn't stand the girl but was left feeling pretty sorry for her.

In reply to tatty112:

yea, me too, i don't think she is a particularly nice person, but i think c4 have acted really wrongly and i do feel bad for her

holxxx

In reply to tatty112:

To her credit, she's just amused me greatly by:

a) Staring vacantly into the camera like a gormless fool, and

b) Blurting out "Gosh, but I haven't even got any underwear on!"

Who said entertainment was dead?

In reply to holly:

Yes, aside from whether we like or feel sorry for Emily, C4 have, as I said very early on, shown themselves to be quite spineless and also blown an opportunity to use this (non-)incident in a farther-reaching and more positive manner.

In reply to Niall:

Are you sure you're not watching 'Eyes Wide Shut' or 'Bridget Jones: The Edge of Reason'?

In reply to flyingfox:

Are you going to boycott UKC for letting this thread title stay up, uncensored?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=246611

In reply to flyingfox:

Do you have to be black to have more than a "little idea of the offence the word nigger can cause since it has so many strong associations with slavery"?

Do you have more than a "little idea"? If so, you must be black (following you logic). Are you black? Is the word "indentured" also offensive? Or "cotton-picker"? Or a word that you have used: "slavery"?

In reply to Blue Straggler: My personal views and observations of this are:

1. Emily shouldnt have said anything to someone/anyone she did not know well enough that what she was saying would neither shock nor offend.
2. Charley was shocked.
3. There are going to be viewers that are either (or both) shocked and offended by what Emily said (even though said as a joke at the time - you have to know explicitly how people around you will react to such controversial language).
4. Channel 4 could have avoided shocking and offending the public by not showing it.
5. Emily has been made a scapegoat by Channel 4 (for their f*ck up on the Celeb Big Bro).

I feel a little sorry for Emily, but don't feel you can get away with using that sort of language (regardless of what it means or how it is used by the generations) on a TV reality show that is potentially viewed by millions and addressed to someone you have known for less than a week...

In reply to Blue Straggler:


Frankly I'd rather have been watching my own intestines being pulled out and wrapped round a stick. But my housemate was watching and I got sucked in. I shall be beating myself with spiked chains as penance.

In reply to Niall:

Could you ask your housemate to take pics as evidence please?

In reply to Niall:
in. I shall be beating myself with spiked chains as penance.
Its a night in the BB bed with the big Welsh burd and her sexy jammies for you boyo!

In reply to marie:


I would, but she's Polish and I'm trying to educate her about Northern Irish culture. Don't want her to get the wrong idea!

In reply to midgelt:

Wow, really? Did this "indie" exist a good DECADE ago? You must be really cutting-edge. You were only 22 too, how did you locate this "indie"?
I thought KT Tunstall invented "indie"

In reply to dek:

None of them thanks, it's enough to put you off women for life. That poor bloke's going to be gay when he gets out.

In reply to Niall:

...and imagine how bad it's going to be for him when they all synchronise!

In reply to Steve Parker:
>In reply to Fawksey:
>>
>> So tell me is their a collective noun for non whites? Please tell me the descriptive word I should have used?
>I think some Americans still use that godawful 'people of colour', like everyone else is an albino or something. 'Black' is the safest thing to use.

Perhaps not relevant to most of the thread but someone did ask... Speaking at least for myself, I would entirely disagree that 'black' is the 'safest' term to use for anyone non-white.

I'm not hugely touchy about racism since I've been lucky enough not to suffer too much from it (apart from occasional people shouting racist abuse at me in the street...) but I would not be amused to be called black. As if the vast majority of the world's population can be labelled as one crude racial class...especially since the word is commonly used in a narrower sense which makes its use as a catch all for everyone but you somewhat ambiguous.

I prefer not to be pigeon-holed by race at all but if you must do it, get it (roughly) right. And if you can't be bothered to do the whole list - black, Asian, Chinese, south-east Asian, aborigine etc etc, then you might as well just say non-white. At least that's completely honest about the criterion you're using to categorise people, i.e. that the important thing about them is that they're not white.

Sorry about the rant but that one does catch me on the raw. It shouldn't do, perhaps, but it does.

In reply to Niall: In the pool?!

In reply to Blue Straggler: Hey i discovered Indie while listening to Small Wonder Records!

In reply to marie:

Good points, backing up what other sane people have been saying...but some Straggler responses:

I mentioned earlier (a reply to HC-R) that the Big Brother environment is very distilled. Emily probably felt that having spent so many hours in close quarters with Charley, that she DID know her "well enough". The BB contestants spend more hours in, or close to, each others' personal space, in a few days, than most of us do with our colleagues in a year.


No comment personally as I've not seen it,but this seems to be the case - but it sounds like she was shocked either at the naivete of using "nigga" on Big Brother, or at the fact that (in the words of the yahoo news report) a "posh blonde Bristol student" would use it, rather than being shocked at the actual "offensiveness".


Here I do disagree. OK I know it's effectively a gameshow, but still, in the original spirit of "reality TV", should these contestants be expected to "act" and/or consider their words and actiona 24 hours a day? Have you never been cut up in traffic and blurted out loud "fu cking cunt" or some such?



Yes. But the demand was probably rather overwhelming, and with the story and transcript out anyway, well why not. I've said twice on the thread that C4 could have done a lot more good with this.


Yes.

Emily's "job description" (for want of a better phrase) surely does not include such responsibilities. She's not presenting Blue Peter.

In reply to Niall:

Is he still the only male in the house? I hope they remove him (nothing personal, not seen it, but sociologically it'll be interesting) and leave it all female for a few days, then put a far less attractive male in there, either a "geek" or an older creepy lecherous specimen, and see if the women go ga-ga anyway (as it's all about cock, basically)

In reply to flyingfox:

Right, and what did they use to depersonalise white people taken as slaves and worked to death under similar circumstances?

In reply to Allan Thomson: This debate isnt about offending white people

In reply to Fawksey:


It very much IS.
What's the BB viewing demographic? White middle-class.
What was that wonderful phrase some journalist coined during the CBB race furore? "Recreational outrage" or some such?
Someone posted about the black American guest on Five Live not being bothered at all, while some "liberal whites" got their knickers in a twist.

In reply to Blue Straggler: sorry I think I may not have explained myself correctly. I was responding to the usual technique by some people to excuse bad behaviour by the fact that the other side uses it too, if you get my meaning.

As you allude to Im sure theres a majority of white liberals offended by this. I said the same some time ago that the term Paki does not offend Pakistanis who drink in the pub down the road but it does offend white middle class liberals on their behalf

In reply to flyingfox:

And you are not aware of the whole picture of slavery - it wasn't just Black people who were taken as slaves, and it wasn't just White Europeans who were responsible for it.

For example:-

Barbary Corsairs frequently raided around the coasts of Britain & the Isle of Man, taking slaves to be sold in the markets in Morocco.

During the English Civil War soldiers who fought for the king were taken and sold into slavery in the West Indies.

After the Jacobite rebellion the Jacobite Rebels were also sent into slavery in the West Indies.

Exploitation of Prisoners of war, particularily by the Japanese.

I most certainly am not offended by the use of the term "Slave", despite it's possible use as a derogetory term, and a number of my ancestors were used in such a way.

It's all relative to the context in which the word is used, and in this case it's clear that it wasn't being used as an insult, but as a ill thought out slang term. Indeed the contestant who used it may even have thought she was making more of an effort to bond with 'black culture' by using it!!!

In reply to Allan Thomson:


Indeed, that's what I was saying very very early in this thread

Interesting stuff about white slavery.

I think flyingfox is "not aware" of many things

My ethnicity, for one. Ha haa!

In reply to Fawksey:

Understood, after clarification
I was mildly puzzled as I thought you and I were very much on the same track with this.

And at risk of sounding like a broken record (I am trying to make a point here), I STILL maintain that Emily Parr has been the victim of racial discrimination at the hands of whoever made the decision to expel her from the Big Brother house. Any "priveledged [sic]" background she may have, is irrelevant.

In reply to Blue Straggler:
Funny it's easy to jump to conclusions isn't it LOL?

I feel we all just need to work together to build a better future, and try and forget the animosities of the past. As you've said, surely there's more important steps which can be taken in improving race relations than the avoidance of a use of a word!

In reply to Blue Straggler: She didnt use the word offensively and Im beginning to think that people a lot younger than me have de insulted the word too, I was always brought up to find it offensive and its a good thing in a way that the meaning for a lot of young people today is different.

CH4 have reacted to the word and not the context it was used in and the people in the BB house probably werent offended only "shocked" that she was stupid enough to say it where she said it

In reply to Fawksey:

Yes! And that's why I repeatedly say they've blown a good opportunity. Their over-reaction does not make them look good (and that's not a truism - over-reacting CAN be a good thing for presentation e.g. KP and McDonalds' early responses to the BSE crisis)

Anyway. Straggler bedtime.
I'll be shown to have been right all along with this thread.

Oh, and Emily Parr is still the only contestant whose full name I know, and I bet I'm not the only one to whom this applies. Clever girl!

In reply to Blue Straggler: well, I finally saw the clip this morning and it seems to me
1) she didnt actually intend to be racist and Charley and the other black woman present accepted this
2) but both black women did find the term offensive and explained this to her clearly
3) I think that she is a silly girl from quite a sheltered background who is trying to appear a lot more street and cool than she really is (like her earlier remarks about their being "a new kind of music called Indie"), and made a horrendous error of judgement. Probably due to her idea of how young urban people behave coming more from listening to gangsta rap and watching movies than real life.
4) Channel 4 had no real choice after the Shilpa Shetty stuff, which was genuinely nasty. If they had acted with a bit more integrity then, they would have had a bit more room to manouver on this.
5) the odd thing that struck me about this clip was that most of the people involved (other than silly emily) behaved and discussed the issue far more intelligently than their behaviour on the rest of the show would lead you to expect. Which leaves me wondering how much of their shallow and vacuous behaviour is played up for the cameras because they know what is expected of them (lots of squealing and giggling)in order to win?

She could form a rap combo with Jonathan Aitken's daughter, I belive she is like real street and that, innit.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:


i noticed that

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Well I think you're wrong about the viewing demographic (don't confuse demographic with majority of viewers). And if you'd watched Big Brothers Little Brother you'd have seen that other black people agreed they would have been shocked and upset in the same circumstances.


Wrong. I think Charley was hurt but uncomfortable about wanting to show this. Perhaps if she'd said "nigga" as you suggest (misrepresent) then it would have been a different outcome, but she didn't say this, she said "you nigger".


You're a really funny guy. Yes I'm clearly a do-gooder patronising white liberal while you're the no-nonsense type sick of all this pc over-sensitive rubbish.

In reply to Dux:

I made no reference to your skin colour.

I'm still confused about how "alright m'nigga" in Nathan Barley was acceptable and funny to you, yet you are on such a high horse about this.

HOw about the lyrics here?
www.blue-straggler.net/miTunes/04 Long Summer Day.mp3

In reply to Blue Straggler: it all becomes a lot simpler if you stick to arguing the rights and wrongs of the issues rather than trying to prove whose street credibility is better.

But carry on with your game of credibility Top Trumps if you must. Perhaps we could have a thread specially for it.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Nathan Barley is an object of ridicule, and his use of the word highlighted his crass and odious personality. It was central to him being not only a racist, but a mysogonist as well. So, it was acceptable as it was a send up of someone not unlike the girl in question, who is so self obsessed that they do not understand nor care about what they say.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

What in God's Holy Name are you babbling about?

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Human?

A


P.S.: love the extreme close up self portrait...

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie: That made no sense at all they were arguing the rights and wrongs of the issue. Was just talking to my students about it. They think it was a daft thing to say, but that she should have just got a slap on the wrist......

"Honorary Asian"? How very magnanimous of them, you must feel very included indeed. Maybe next term they could try just letting you be your plain old white self and treat you like an equal? Just a thought.

This whole thing is not racial or etymological: It's purely political. C4 are not only still stinging from forcible humble pie from OFCOM about the Shetty farce, they're also lobbying the Government for increased subsidy for commercial broadcasters, what with them leading the way with all this top-quality public service programming, and one of these "contestants" using the word "nigger" can't have helped make them look good. Best make her walk the plank to prove how "responsible" they are, despite having made the mistake of filling a televised house with a bunch of immature (in both chronological and maturity senses) publicity hungry wanabees in the first place. I suspect if I rented out a house to ten university students I'd get a very similar result.

The answer to the question of "would a black person have been ejected for saying the same thing?" can be found not two years ago when a certain Victor Ubogu was in the house and doing his big Gangsta schtick. I believe the N word was used several times by him about himself, not to mention some fairly unpleasant references to some of his less African-Carribean housemates.

Ah...f**k 'em all. I hope they get all the fame they wish for.

In reply to Fawksey:

Another fine example of "recreational outrage", this thread died off so quickly