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The Pennines backbone of Britain

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 Offwidth 07 Feb 2022

Just watching this on More 4 and it starts in the southern end  with Andi Turner bouldering and Jesse Dufton climbing Encouragement at Hen Cloud with Mollie (and Andi).

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-pennines-backbone-of-britain

1
In reply to Offwidth:

Yet again, in the minds of the English media Britain = England.

51
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Yet again, in the minds of the English media Britain = England.

Can't you turn it off? Do you have no filter? Don't you get really tired of feeling so much hatred all the time? 

The Pennines have always been referred to the backbone of Britain. It's geography not politics.

Think of it this way, and go with me for a second. You could stretch the analogy to say that Cornwall is the foot, Kent the heel, wales the belly, the central belt the neck, the rest of Scotland the head (the thinking, clever bit) and the Orkneys as the cool hairstyle. Then you have East Anglia as the arse and London as the stinking rectum.

There, does that make you feel better or do you just like to wallow in bitterness and detestation whilst highjacking what could have been a pleasant,  positive thread about hills and climbing and turning it into something unnecessary?

Post edited at 06:55
7
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Yet again, in the minds of the English media Britain = England.

It is never difficult to distinguish between a Scottish Nationalist with a grudge and a ray of sunshine. [Apologies to PG Wodehouse.]

1
 kmsands 08 Feb 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

It would be silly and parochial for a UK-wide broadcaster with a big studio in Glasgow to name the programme in a way which would suggest it is only of interest to English people. Also a mountain range makes more metaphorical sense as a backbone of a landmass (Britain) than a political entity (England).

In reply to Offwidth:

Aanyways, saw that quite by chance and turned on just before the Hen Cloud bit. Yet again I’m gobsmacked by what Jesse Dufton manages to do, hanging around furtling for holds and gear by feel, with sporadic beta from below. V cool.

 JCurrie 08 Feb 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Wow! A one line comment shows ‘so much hatred’??!! Really? I think your own response might be considered in a similar light, and with more justification.

When I was at school the Pennines were referred to as the backbone of England. Indeed, Google helpfully auto completes that for me when I type in ‘backbone of eng’ into a search. I then get lots of links to helpful sites describing it thus. Not so much if I type ‘backbone of br’ . I then get links to the telly programme and little else.

21
In reply to JCurrie:

Blah, blah, blah...we all knew precisely what was meant. 

Disingenuous, much?

Post edited at 08:10
8
OP Offwidth 08 Feb 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Our forum's nationalist Tom,

A proud single issue homme

Can link in geology

Even endocrinology

His pathology goes down a bomb

2
 Tom Valentine 08 Feb 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Unfortunately I have to go with the England camp - never heard it referred to as the backbone of Britain before

1
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Unfortunately I have to go with the England camp - never heard it referred to as the backbone of Britain before

Indeed, and I somewhat agree, although I've heard it referred to by both. That's not the point though. It was a harmless non-political thread pointing us all in the direction of a hilly TV watch with some bouldering in it.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Serious question-When scotland gains independence, what will you find to moan about? You seem to do little else so that will be a massive gap in your day to day existence.

9
 Enty 08 Feb 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

Yes, Tom was being a bit of a dick but I have to say I've only ever head the Pennines described as the Backbone of Britain in the Ford transit advert and last night on tv.

Always was Backbone of England for me.

E

1
OP Offwidth 08 Feb 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

The bouldering is less than a minute. Jesse is shown leading all of the classic E1  Encouragement and is I'd guess over 5 minutes in two parts: pitch one at the start and pitch two just after the midway advert slot. It really is worth watching.

Talk of the nationalism of 'back bones' seems pretty spineless to me (and I've heard both versions commonly used since I was young and I always preferred the Britain version as it's more poetic in its alliterative assonance and in any case the geology doesn't stop at the border).

Post edited at 08:49
1
In reply to The worst job I ever had:

> Serious question-When scotland gains independence, what will you find to moan about? 

England, presumably, just like the little Englanders havn't stopped moaning about the EU since Brexit. The disastrous hard border at the top end of the Pennine Way will provide plenty of fuel.

2
In reply to JCurrie:

> Wow! A one line comment shows ‘so much hatred’??!! Really? 

It's not one comment though. It's a stuck record.

> When I was at school the Pennines were referred to as the backbone of England. 

Yes, I'm not sure I've heard "Backbone of Britain" before. On this occasion Tom may have a point.

1
 Ramblin dave 08 Feb 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

Yeah, I found the title a bit suspect to be honest.

Although I guess you could argue that if the Backbone of Britain run to about Berwick, that means that most of the brains are north of the border.

1
 Maggot 08 Feb 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> England, presumably, just like the little Englanders havn't stopped moaning about the EU since Brexit. The disastrous hard border at the top end of the Pennine Way will provide plenty of fuel.

The end of the Pennine Way will have to be rerouted and will we see a resurgence of the Reivers?

In reply to Offwidth:

> I always preferred the Britain version as it's more poetic in its alliterative assonance and in any case the geology doesn't stop at the border).

Yes, it could be the malign influence of the Deep State through one of its vassal broadcasters, but I'd put my money on a producer liking a bit of snappy alliteration.

Can't wait to see a bit of Andi's bouldering prowess and how Jesse manages the first pitch of Encouragement.  I thought it was quite sketchy and thought-provoking (and not super well-protected).  The second pitch is relatively straightforward especially for a crack monster like Jesse!

In reply to kmsands:

> It would be silly and parochial for a UK-wide broadcaster with a big studio in Glasgow to name the programme in a way which would suggest it is only of interest to English people. Also a mountain range makes more metaphorical sense as a backbone of a landmass (Britain) than a political entity (England).

They don't even think about it because for most English people it is true.  They don't have a clue about the relative size of Scotland and England, they don't have a clue for the relative size of the mountainous areas in Scotland to hills like the Pennines and they don't care. 

https://mapfight.xyz/compare/england-vs-scotland

Recently they even started using a 3D perspective on maps on TV weather which is set to make Scotland look smaller relative to England.  Not out of malice but because they think it's better when 9/10 of their audience is in England and it lets them show more detail of England.  But it also gives  people a false idea of how large Scotland is. 

16
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Of course this could have been the BBC going out of their way to be more inclusive of Scotland.

1
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> They don't have a clue about the relative size of Scotland and England, they don't have a clue for the relative size of the mountainous areas in Scotland to hills like the Pennines and they don't care.

I know.  That notoriously nationalist BBC never mentions that Scotland even has mountains of its own.

A Year in the Wild - The Cairngorms https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01lvh65

Making Scotland's Landscape https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00vjvyw

The Mountain https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04ynmbd

In reply to kmsands:

> It would be silly and parochial for a UK-wide broadcaster with a big studio in Glasgow to name the programme in a way which would suggest it is only of interest to English people. Also a mountain range makes more metaphorical sense as a backbone of a landmass (Britain) than a political entity (England).

Except that the Pennines end at Kirk Yetholm (generally accepted geographical fact)

 ThunderCat 08 Feb 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Is it not anything as innocent as the alliteration making it sound nicer on the ear?  

In reply to Offwidth:

Thank you for sharing.

 Tony Buckley 08 Feb 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

>   They don't have a clue about the relative size of Scotland and England,

Scotland has a population that's more or less equivalent to that of Yorkshire.  I look forward to you supporting the campaign for Yorkshire's independence with equal vigour.

That the kind of relative size you're after?

T.

2
 Darkinbad 08 Feb 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> Our forum's nationalist Tom,

> A proud single issue homme

> Can link in geology

> Even endocrinology

> His pathology goes down a bomb

Possibly the best thing I have seen you post on UKC, even though the second line doesn't quite scan 😊

1
 Jim Lancs 08 Feb 2022

I think it's simply that the program makers have their title confused with the far less contentious truism that 'The English are the Backbone of Britain'.

Easily done. No harm meant.

Post edited at 11:05
 wercat 08 Feb 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

My 1978 reprint of WA Poucher's "The Peak and Pennines" (bought new) has introductory notes which I assume are little changed since the First Edition.  They begin, definitively "The Peak and Pennines together are generally known as the 'Backbone of England' ".

This is all I have ever known them called in terms of skeletal quality and I grew up in the North Pennines.  Poucher, imho, clinches it.

The OP rant is directed at a typical scruffy misuse of terms by careless media types for whose negligence he chooses to blame everyone in England.  Enough said.

Post edited at 11:07
 wercat 08 Feb 2022
In reply to Maggot:

> The end of the Pennine Way will have to be rerouted and will we see a resurgence of the Reivers?

That's great as my mother was born a Fenwick!

Let's go a reiving in Downing Street

Post edited at 11:09
Andy Gamisou 08 Feb 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Recently they even started using a 3D perspective on maps on TV weather which is set to make Scotland look smaller relative to England.  

Scotland is smaller relative to England, as the link you provide illustrates clearly. 

In reply to Darkinbad:

> Possibly the best thing I have seen you post on UKC, even though the second line doesn't quite scan 😊

Perhaps substitute proudly for proud?

In reply to Rog Wilko:

This thread has reminded me of how intensely irritating I find it when radio weather forecasts (no map) are very vague about northern parts of Britain. "Rain later in the north-west" is typical. North west of where? England? SW. Scotland? NW Scotland? It gives the impression that Scotland is only a minor appendage just north of the Lakes, and doesn't deserve its own consideration. Which, for any southerners reading this, is not true.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Recently they even started using a 3D perspective on maps on TV weather which is set to make Scotland look smaller relative to England. 

By "recently", do you mean 17 years ago?

OP Offwidth 08 Feb 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Our Tom is just wrong on the map

Forgeting the Mercantor wrap

As to scotland we forth 

It enlarges the north

So his blaming the English is crap

1
OP Offwidth 08 Feb 2022
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Watch and see.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Yet again, in the minds of the English media Britain = England.

And most Americans and a fair percentage of Europeans. 

 Pedro50 08 Feb 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> Our Tom is just wrong on the map

> Forgeting the Mercantor wrap

> As to scotland we forth 

> It enlarges the north

> So his blaming the English is crap

Mercator surely?

 kmsands 08 Feb 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

"They don't even think about it because they don't care. They don't have a clue about the relative size of Scotland and England, they don't have a clue for the relative size of the mountainous areas in Scotland to hills like the Pennines and they don't care."

Who do you mean by 'they' here? I'm English, but I'm fully aware of the relative size of the different nations of the UK, thanks. Perhaps you should address your concerns to the programme makers at Channel 4? To me, it seems a straightforward ediorial decision designed to include their whole audience - equivalent to calling a documentary called (for example) "The Cairngorms: Britain's wildest mountains". Would you object to that?

 kmsands 08 Feb 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

Anyway thanks to the OP for posting about the prog. The climbing bits were nicely done, made me want to get to Hen Cloud. 

Post edited at 13:59
 mark s 08 Feb 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

I thought the climbing section was great. It helps that my best mate is Andi . It feels weird actually seeing him on TV 

1
In reply to Tony Buckley:

> Scotland has a population that's more or less equivalent to that of Yorkshire.  I look forward to you supporting the campaign for Yorkshire's independence with equal vigour.

If Yorkshire or London want to be independent and govern themselves it is none of my business.  Similarly if Scotland votes in an SNP government with a mandate to hold a referendum it is none of English people's business and they, and their state funded media, should stay out of it.

15
In reply to kmsands:

> Who do you mean by 'they' here?

The people in C4 who named and approved the name of the program and their audience the  'man in the street' in England.

> I'm English, but I'm fully aware of the relative size of the different nations of the UK, thanks. Perhaps you should address your concerns to the programme makers at Channel 4? To me, it seems a straightforward ediorial decision designed to include their whole audience - equivalent to calling a documentary called (for example) "The Cairngorms: Britain's wildest mountains". Would you object to that?

I'd prefer 'The Cairngorms: Scotland's wildest mountains'.  When something is big/good/valuable and it is in Scotland it always gets called British, when something is small/bad then it gets called Scottish.  It's doing the country down and giving a false perspective which is helpful to unionism by making people in Scotland less self confident about their country.

16
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

This is reminding me of the time when the population of Corsica were asked if the island should secede from France and become independent. Apparently, 25% said yes, When the population of France was asked the same question, 95% said yes. 

PS I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this story, which may be apocryphal.

2
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

> Scotland is smaller relative to England, as the link you provide illustrates clearly. 

Of course it is.  But it's nothing like as much smaller as most people think.  If you had a 'gut feel' for the size of mainland Scotland relative to England then you'd never think it was appropriate to describe a range of relatively small hills in the north of England as the backbone of Britain.

1
 John Ww 08 Feb 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

You want to know how to guarantee Scottish independence? Give the English a vote! Bye - and don’t let the door hit you on the arse on the way out 👋👋👋

4
OP Offwidth 08 Feb 2022
In reply to Pedro50:

Poor eyesight.... apologies

 Uncle Derek 08 Feb 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Did you enjoy the programme, we might watch it later.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> I'd prefer 'The Cairngorms: Scotland's wildest mountains'.  When something is big/good/valuable and it is in Scotland it always gets called British, when something is small/bad then it gets called Scottish.

This is a slightly bizarre flavour of nationalism, in which a country gets credit for geological features. The Cairngorms were there long before Scots, and they'll be there long after we're gone.

 andi turner 08 Feb 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

Wow. Here's me clicking in expecting some ego massaging about such a sterling performance, and instead I just get to read to about what region a metaphoric backbone lies in. Regardless of whether it's England or Britain, it's not actually a backbone, and that's a fact.

In reply to John Ww:

> You want to know how to guarantee Scottish independence? Give the English a vote! Bye - and don’t let the door hit you on the arse on the way out 👋👋👋

I figured this out a long time ago.  The path to independence will be much easier if English voters want rid of Scotland.  That's why I put so much effort into annoying them.

3
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> I figured this out a long time ago.  The path to independence will be much easier if English voters want rid of Scotland.  That's why I put so much effort into annoying them.

And what would be the best way to annoy you Tom? Best not give your cunning plan away!

In reply to The worst job I ever had:

> Serious question-When scotland gains independence, what will you find to moan about? You seem to do little else so that will be a massive gap in your day to day existence.

I already thought of that.  Once we get independence I'm going to start moaning about abolishing the royals and aristocrats.  Then it will be land reform and a gradual shift from taxes on income to taxes on wealth and land.

5
In reply to andi turner:

I tell you what, I loved that Andi Turner bit. Always a pleasure to see the grit on the telly! A very particular kind of sandstone that is 😁

Post edited at 22:44
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Er, but the royal family of England would be a matter for them alone?

1
 aln 09 Feb 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

If we get independence will there be any royals to abolish?

1
In reply to aln:

> If we get independence will there be any royals to abolish?

After Indy Scotland would be like Australia and Canada - independent but still with the English royals as head of state.   The referendum question is just about becoming an independent nation.

Of course if the English don't want to share their royals when it comes to the negotiations we might be persuaded to let them keep them.  

Post edited at 04:36
1
 Darkinbad 09 Feb 2022
In reply to andi turner:

> Wow. Here's me clicking in expecting some ego massaging about such a sterling performance, and instead I just get to read to about what region a metaphoric backbone lies in. Regardless of whether it's England or Britain, it's not actually a backbone, and that's a fact.

But if it was, you would have been dangling from the coccyx. You could fairly claim that you have done the bum start to the series...

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Of course if the English don't want to share their royals when it comes to the negotiations we might be persuaded to let them keep them.  

I don't think they are the English's royals to share or not as they choose. They are just as much Scotland's royals; it would be up to the citizens of an independent Scotland whether they kept them or not.

In reply to Darkinbad:

> But if it was, you would have been dangling from the coccyx. You could fairly claim that you have done the bum start to the series...

Is the series going to end with an elephant's arse top out into Scotland?

In reply to steveriley:

> I tell you what, I loved that Andi Turner bit. 

Me too.  He's a natural, although a bit of a show-off, missing out the crux of Joe's Arete.

In reply to Offwidth:

> Watch and see.

Ah, OK, so there goes that theory.  

OP Offwidth 09 Feb 2022
In reply to Dave Garnett:

I thought that was the easy way to do Joe's Arete!? The static way is a technical eliminate unless lack of reach or fear of dynamic movement forces it.

Overall the coverage  was up with the best I've ever seen on mainstream TV in anything that's not a strictly climbing based production.

Post edited at 11:19
 coinneach 09 Feb 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

youtube.com/watch?v=zaJPOVGlEPs&
 

Tom in Edinburgh as a younger man.

 ThunderCat 09 Feb 2022
In reply to coinneach:

>  

> Tom in Edinburgh as a younger man.

I was googling this same character yesterday after reading this thread. !!!  Hahaha

 Fat Bumbly2 09 Feb 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Backbone - Scotland is the head.

 Fat Bumbly2 09 Feb 2022
In reply to Rog Wilko:

Pennine Way - not the Pennines.   Funny thing the PW - it misses out a biggish chunk of the southern end and bolts on the Cheviots which are part of the Southern Uplands.

Worth walking the missing southern bit btw.

 T38 09 Feb 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

Really nice little programme, thanks for head up.

@Fat Bumbly re PW: yes agreed, the PW should include the southern Peak District bits.

In reply to coinneach:

> Tom in Edinburgh as a younger man.

It's odd to think that he is apparently a Ratho regular yet I have no idea who he is. But he probably doesn't remain in character in real life. He may in fact be a tory unionist doing a fine job of undermining the independence cause by pushing 2014 No voting fence sitters like me back off the fence.

1
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Yet again, in the minds of the English media Britain = England.

Not always…


 seankenny 10 Feb 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Yet again, in the minds of the English media Britain = England.

O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us; To see oursels as ithers see us! 
 

In reply to andi turner:

I felt a bit of a sado that I recognised Joe's Arete from the foothold you put your right foot on 😁

Jesse is rather impressive.

 Maggot 14 Feb 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

Yorkshire walks was a good one tonight.

She wasn't rabbiting away like some do, just the gentle crunch crunch crunch of footsteps which for some bizarre reason makes me laugh watching it on telly.


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