UKC

Looking for some quite specific advice regarding best practices for moving together, simul climbing as a 3 for summer alpine climbing. Options I can think of so far based on previous experience with guides:

2 climbers close together (1-2 meters) with the leader in front placing protection. On easy ground in everyone's ability.

Climbers equally spaced where the middle climber unclips the gear and reclips it to protect the last climber.

 Looking for pros/cons etc. or alternative setups

I've done the 2nd option: 3 climbers equally spaced. My main suggestion with simul climbing would be to try to have a micro-traxion or similar between the leader and the next climber whenever a fall is possible (i.e. if you wouldn't feel comfortable without a rope).

I haven't come across the two 'followers' close together method.

This link may be helpful:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/climb-skills-moving-together

Obviously any system you use will depend on the experience / skill level of each member of the team and the nature of the terrain. I cannot emphasise enough the need for all members of the team to have the appropriate knowledge, skills and practice. The consequences for getting it wrong could be dire!

    Assuming easy ( for all members of the team ) rock or mixed ground and the person leading is the most experienced and the two people following have the appropriate skills I would suggest your second option. As the leader try to use natural anchors where possible ( threading the rope around stable spikes and blocks or either side of a ridge ) and using slings if required. If needed  ( depending on the terrain ) then obviously placing cams ( I find having two or three mid range useful ) is also quick. Often you can find some fixed gear on popular routes ( check to see it is still solid ). Obviously wires or hexes can be used too, they tend to slow everything down so there is usually a compromise between speed and security. You will have to learn how to judge what is appropriate.

   When you run out of gear re group and carry on. If there is a more tricky section consider setting up a suitable anchor, bring up the 'seconds' and the leader being belayed on that section and then the leader can belay the two seconds past the step before resuming moving together again. On technically more difficult sections ( for the party ) then moving together / simul climbing with micro traxions may be appropriate.

   I would suggest your first method would most commonly be used when pitching as a three. It may be appropriate if there is a highly skilled / competent leader ( such as a guide or very experienced and capable alpine climber ) when moving together but the consequences of the second or third slipping don't bear thinking about.

Remember, practice, practice, practice. UK scrambling ground can be ideal to develop those skills on. If in doubt, try to find some experienced alpine climbers to learn from or book a professional.

With two people on the end you aren't really moving together most of the time, it's short roping or short pitching. The leader belays using a terrain appropriate belay system to safeguard the two followers (short rope, body belay, spike belay, rock belay etc...). It takes a lot of judgement and practice to do this safely and efficiently.

Yes, I agree. I perhaps did not make that clear enough in my response...

I realise there are different opinions on this and there is a flood of info and arguments online, including here on UKC. Most of them are untested in a real fall situation. IMO you can't truly short-rope two clients/partners because automatically there will be too much rope out to stop the furthest falling climber from pulling you to your death on all but the easiest, softest terrain. I know people will disagree. Their choice...

https://www.alpinerecreation.com/pdf/safetyresearch_verbunden_bis_in_den_to...

"I can already hear the indignation of my colleagues, who for years have skilfully and competently short-roped their clients on steep slopes. We see the pictures in all the climbing catalogues and guidebooks. I have guided in this manner myself for many years.

“You just have to do it properly”, you hear again and again, after a short-roping accident claims another from our midst. ... The holding ability of the climber leading a roped team, moving together, is for the most part only wishful thinking. Because the technique is so widely used, short-roping has become the norm. But even the most experienced guide is not exempt from the laws of physics."

Whoops, I read the thread title as "... moving in together as a three".

As a wise man once told me, ‘short roping is a state of mind’.

I agree, I think that's why looking at it from the outside it's easy to see at as just moving together. In reality when I'm using the rope in this way whilst working, there is either some sort of belay in being used or the terrain is low consequence or very easy or a combination. 

Its definitely an issue I've been acutely aware of as a lighter instructor. When I did my MCI training the BMC were testing grip strength on a rope and the highest anyone managed to hold was about 25kg held statically in one hand, so even holding one person in a large slip would be very difficult, let alone two.

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Thanks for sharing that article. Based on that and to be more specific I would say my options are systems for "moderate ground" that would be used to make quick progress on something like cneifion arete or the cosmiques arete (alpine example). I've only done this as a pair before.

I have heard of the micro traxion trick but haven't used it yet, so I'll practice that at some point. 

It seems like the equally spaced climbers option might make the most sense so perhaps that and being more generous with the protection would be a good compromise.

I was on a guided trip and as we moved along a ridge one guide mentioned to the other with almost astonished wonderment: “Fred’s client fell off the xx ridge and this actually worked”. Probably not the best thing to say with client’s in earshot. 

I think as ordinary punters you can protect from disaster on moderate terrain with a couple of solid bits of gear to move faster, but as soon as it gets technical you should be pitching it. By technical I mean more than moderate scrambling or anything with death potential, and pitching can mean short pitches with a quick Italian hitch to a solid single anchor. At no point should the difference between sipping a cold beer in the pub afterwards and being dead should be the reaction of someone catching a fall holding on to hand coils. 

In addition to what others have said, communication is important. Especially if one of the group is inexperienced. Agreeing where and when a static belay is needed. Agreeing when the second must wait securely while the leader does a harder move etc. 

This is why you don't want to be too far apart. Ideally all within 12 metres. And if you come to something harder, then change to pitching mode. That's where efficient rope work is useful.

I totally agree with this. In my experience short roping is very much a way to:

- Conveniently carry the rope between sections of a route that don't require a rope without actually untying

- Give confidence between an experienced and skilled person and someone who is not.

- Prevent a slip becoming a fall; needs lots of skill / practice. The experienced person needs to have a hand free for the locked off rope and be on terrain they are totally secure with and can ensure that the person they are leading is not going to pull them off if they do slip.

- Potentially provide some protection  when on a narrow snowy arete with no belays

I remember some excellent research in New Zealand where they practiced holding a slip on a snowy surface at gradually increasing angles and found that it was tricky to prevent a slip on a very modest angle.

   Pero's point is also spot on.

Photographer on the middle of the rope. Easy to snap both leader and second.