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Every two weeks or so I get a sore back, after 2 days it goes away. This has been happening on and off since I had a climbing accident last summer. I have spoken to both the doctor and the physio about it, but they are both convinced that the discomfort is from using crutches (I broke my ankle from the fall) which I have been off for about a month now.
I am tempted to go and see a chiropractor but as far as I know, they aren't on the NHS so it would cost in the hundreds of pounds to get treatment.
I have no experience with them whatsoever. So UKC-ers, in your collective experience are they worth it? or a big waste of money? I am thinking just man up and hope the pain goes, but my back did hurt a bit after the fall so am guessing I damaged it slightly. All the doctor did in A&E was run his hand down my spine and said I was fine.
In reply to kit perry:
No
No
In reply to kit perry:
I have suffered from pains in my lower back for much of my adult life - then started to get real problems. i didn't really know what Chiropractors were and thought they were something like physiotherapists - I thought I would go once, he would put everything right and that would be it.
I got a real shock, after my first visit, to be told that I would need to go back twice a week (at £28 per go!!!) to start off with. However, at the time, I was in so much pain that anything was worth a try, so I did. My treatments have gradually reduced and now I go once every 8 weeks.
My back is in the best state it has ever been as an adult and I have also lost the hip problems that I had developed when walking in the hills, which I hadn't thought were anything at all to do with my back.
Chiropractors are not scientifically proven and this is only my own experience with one particular back problem and one particular chiropractor so I have no idea if it would be of any use in your own case.
I have suffered from pains in my lower back for much of my adult life - then started to get real problems. i didn't really know what Chiropractors were and thought they were something like physiotherapists - I thought I would go once, he would put everything right and that would be it.
I got a real shock, after my first visit, to be told that I would need to go back twice a week (at £28 per go!!!) to start off with. However, at the time, I was in so much pain that anything was worth a try, so I did. My treatments have gradually reduced and now I go once every 8 weeks.
My back is in the best state it has ever been as an adult and I have also lost the hip problems that I had developed when walking in the hills, which I hadn't thought were anything at all to do with my back.
Chiropractors are not scientifically proven and this is only my own experience with one particular back problem and one particular chiropractor so I have no idea if it would be of any use in your own case.
In reply to kit perry:
I was recommended a osteopath by friend who is an NHS consultant surgeon. In his spare time he plays rugby and uses this osteopath for injuries, he said he was a little doubtful at first, being 'in the business' as it where. He was convinced after his first visit and has used them several times since for sport injuries.
I can't recommend them highly enough. Sorted out my problem in 3 visits, total cost around £100, I would have no hesitation in going again.
I've never used a chiropracter, but I know people who have and give good reports also.
I was recommended a osteopath by friend who is an NHS consultant surgeon. In his spare time he plays rugby and uses this osteopath for injuries, he said he was a little doubtful at first, being 'in the business' as it where. He was convinced after his first visit and has used them several times since for sport injuries.
I can't recommend them highly enough. Sorted out my problem in 3 visits, total cost around £100, I would have no hesitation in going again.
I've never used a chiropracter, but I know people who have and give good reports also.
In reply to Tiberius:
Just to cover my problem, I don't know how I did it, but my back/neck stiffened up. I could not turn my head at all without a lot of pain. I had to turn my entire body to look over my shoulder.
Just to cover my problem, I don't know how I did it, but my back/neck stiffened up. I could not turn my head at all without a lot of pain. I had to turn my entire body to look over my shoulder.
In reply to Tiberius:
I came back from a sea kayaking exped and like you couldn't turn my head...went to see a brutal chiropractor a few times, I am convinced that he was the cause of a slipped disc I had a short while after seeing him. He told me to give up my job and change my lifestyle of outdoor activities.
I'm continuing to have hospital treatment NHS Physios, and have long conversations with the consultant re Osteopaths and Chiropractors. I guess there are some good Chiropractors and Osteopaths out there but be warned there are also a whole load who will cause you more harm!
I can thank my Brutal Chiropractor for making me prove a point to him that my climbing career ain't over!
> (In reply to Tiberius)
>
> Just to cover my problem, I don't know how I did it, but my back/neck stiffened up. I could not turn my head at all without a lot of pain. I had to turn my entire body to look over my shoulder.
>
> Just to cover my problem, I don't know how I did it, but my back/neck stiffened up. I could not turn my head at all without a lot of pain. I had to turn my entire body to look over my shoulder.
I came back from a sea kayaking exped and like you couldn't turn my head...went to see a brutal chiropractor a few times, I am convinced that he was the cause of a slipped disc I had a short while after seeing him. He told me to give up my job and change my lifestyle of outdoor activities.
I'm continuing to have hospital treatment NHS Physios, and have long conversations with the consultant re Osteopaths and Chiropractors. I guess there are some good Chiropractors and Osteopaths out there but be warned there are also a whole load who will cause you more harm!
I can thank my Brutal Chiropractor for making me prove a point to him that my climbing career ain't over!
In reply to kit perry:
Yes (with a caveat) - I suffered for 9 months with a prolapsed disc. Was in absolute agony most of the time. The chiro would get me moving again. However they didn't fix me - me and my body did that after talking to the surgeon about an op and he told me to keep exercising and manage the pain with anti inflams and ibuP. Within a month of seeing him I was better! Moral of the story when your back first goes see a chiro asap (the longer it's left the worse a job he/she has to do - I left it 3 months before going!!)
But remember they are in the business of making money too as well as helping you and it is easy to fall into the trap of booking regular "maintenance" payments.
My advice - find out exactly what is wrong with your back. I paid for a private MRI scan in the end and as soon as I saw the photos I didn't need any surgeon to tell me what was wrong it was blindingly obvious. And then you absolutely should learn how to manage your back. Touch wood I've not had a reoccurance for 18 months now.
La Sham
Yes (with a caveat) - I suffered for 9 months with a prolapsed disc. Was in absolute agony most of the time. The chiro would get me moving again. However they didn't fix me - me and my body did that after talking to the surgeon about an op and he told me to keep exercising and manage the pain with anti inflams and ibuP. Within a month of seeing him I was better! Moral of the story when your back first goes see a chiro asap (the longer it's left the worse a job he/she has to do - I left it 3 months before going!!)
But remember they are in the business of making money too as well as helping you and it is easy to fall into the trap of booking regular "maintenance" payments.
My advice - find out exactly what is wrong with your back. I paid for a private MRI scan in the end and as soon as I saw the photos I didn't need any surgeon to tell me what was wrong it was blindingly obvious. And then you absolutely should learn how to manage your back. Touch wood I've not had a reoccurance for 18 months now.
La Sham
In reply to kit perry:
cheers for all the input. I think I might just have a few words with my physio during my next appointment. If it was a one off payment to get it sorted then maybe, but follow up appointments sound expensive.
cheers for all the input. I think I might just have a few words with my physio during my next appointment. If it was a one off payment to get it sorted then maybe, but follow up appointments sound expensive.
In reply to La Shamster:
Definitely MRI scan to find the problem.
I have parted with hundreds of pounds after 4 prolapses over the years.
I have been told that when in crisis (straight after the back goes) no amount of manipulation will help as you would just be angering an already spasming angry back.
I would now go down the muscle relaxant (yes....diazepam) when in crisis followed by physio and swiming....all free apart from the swimming.
Been told that your core muscles are so important to prevent further relapses
I will never see another chiropractor.
Definitely MRI scan to find the problem.
I have parted with hundreds of pounds after 4 prolapses over the years.
I have been told that when in crisis (straight after the back goes) no amount of manipulation will help as you would just be angering an already spasming angry back.
I would now go down the muscle relaxant (yes....diazepam) when in crisis followed by physio and swiming....all free apart from the swimming.
Been told that your core muscles are so important to prevent further relapses
I will never see another chiropractor.
In reply to Removed User: Have you tried Inversion therapy / Gravity boots? Definitley working for me at the moment. Cheap as well about £30 for the boots and £10 for a chin up bar.
In reply to Sl@te Head:
Problem is we all can only really realate personal stories. My friend who is the NHS consultan was married to an NHS physio, and he has a very low opinion of them.
I can only say that I entered the osteopath unable to turn my head, and walked out able to, certainly I've never had such an improvement from an NHS physio.
> I'm continuing to have hospital treatment NHS Physios, and have long conversations with the consultant re Osteopaths and Chiropractors. I guess there are some good Chiropractors and Osteopaths out there...
Problem is we all can only really realate personal stories. My friend who is the NHS consultan was married to an NHS physio, and he has a very low opinion of them.
I can only say that I entered the osteopath unable to turn my head, and walked out able to, certainly I've never had such an improvement from an NHS physio.
In reply to kit perry:
No.
Go to someone who can teach you how to keep your back in good nick and fix it yourself when it all goes wrong. hey are called Chartered Physiotherapists.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=355331&v=1#x5195058
(With Doctors it's just bed-rest and brufen. Hopeless.)
No.
Go to someone who can teach you how to keep your back in good nick and fix it yourself when it all goes wrong. hey are called Chartered Physiotherapists.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=355331&v=1#x5195058
(With Doctors it's just bed-rest and brufen. Hopeless.)
In reply to kit perry:
Same applies to physios - they are business men and women remember!
I spent a small fortune with the physio too and would never go back to one regarding my back. She also tried to tell me she could do everything a chiro could do - she couldn't and she hurt me more.
La Sham
Same applies to physios - they are business men and women remember!
I spent a small fortune with the physio too and would never go back to one regarding my back. She also tried to tell me she could do everything a chiro could do - she couldn't and she hurt me more.
La Sham
In reply to kit perry:
True I was seeing a physio who works with triathletes and the para Olympics swimming squad.
But just because it's free doesn't mean it's doing you any good.
You need to find out exactly what is wrong with your back first - until you do that you won't know how best to treat it.
True I was seeing a physio who works with triathletes and the para Olympics swimming squad.
But just because it's free doesn't mean it's doing you any good.
You need to find out exactly what is wrong with your back first - until you do that you won't know how best to treat it.
In reply to kit perry:
http://spinesurgeons.ac.uk/article.asp?article=30
My surgeon referred me here. He was the only person who actually spoke sense and his advice to me to keep training and use painkillers helped my recovery without the need for surgery.
http://spinesurgeons.ac.uk/article.asp?article=30
My surgeon referred me here. He was the only person who actually spoke sense and his advice to me to keep training and use painkillers helped my recovery without the need for surgery.
In reply to kit perry: I would say no. I've been to them in the past and felt better for a while. The issue I have is that it isn't sustained.
They bend you around a bit to "re-align" you. The trouble is that what they do is not much different to what you do to yourself in day-to-day life, so if their "re-alignment" actually works, you'll soon "un-align" yourself.
I had back problems for years as a result of car and horse-riding accidents, and what has pretty much sorted it out for me is cycling and climbing.
They bend you around a bit to "re-align" you. The trouble is that what they do is not much different to what you do to yourself in day-to-day life, so if their "re-alignment" actually works, you'll soon "un-align" yourself.
I had back problems for years as a result of car and horse-riding accidents, and what has pretty much sorted it out for me is cycling and climbing.
In reply to wayno265:
looks like there is no excuse for me not going climbing now!
>
> I had back problems for years as a result of car and horse-riding accidents, and what has pretty much sorted it out for me is cycling and climbing.
> I had back problems for years as a result of car and horse-riding accidents, and what has pretty much sorted it out for me is cycling and climbing.
looks like there is no excuse for me not going climbing now!
In reply to kit perry: worth there weight in gold! sheffield chiropractic clinic chesterfield road woodseats ive been a client for 15 years
In reply to kit perry: I always find posts like this very amusing. As a chiropractor myself it's interesting to find peoples perceptions of osteos, chiros and physios. Now I'm not interested in getting into an argument over which is the best as it's pointless. There are good practioners and bad ones, some of which are just interested in ripping people off. I know of plenty practioners from all areas of healthcare who just rip people off and don't give then the quality of care they deserve. All I'll say is take what people say about each profession with a pinch of salt. All practioners practice differently and what works with one person won't necessarily work as well for another, and just because you don't respond to the way one practioner works doesn't mean what they do doesn't work! I come from a large family of medical practioners including surgeons, gp, osteopaths and physios and dentists. And in terms of getting treatment myself I'll grab either the osteo or physio (only because she can manipulate properly because we taught her!).
Regarding getting chiropractic on the NHS, you can get it but you need to request that you want to see a chiropractor. I have several gps who refer to me on a regular basis and it
Paid for on the NHS. As for seeing physios at an outpatients clinic bear in mind that alot of these physios are newly graduated and won't have alot of clinical experience. Most ofl the decent physios will be private like the chiros and osteos. In terms of the difference between osteopathy and chiropractic, initaily it was down to philosophy. Osteopathy follows the vascular system and chiropractic follows the nervous system. Nowadays there is little difference between the two arts although some practioners will try to make out theirs is the best. In reality the biggest difference will be between practioners and how they practice. As for physios I know some great ones and not so great ones. All I'll say is that they don't learn manipulation like osteos and chiros do regardless what they tell you. My cousin is a physio and I've seen her entire syllabus although they can learn manipulation post grad.
Regarding looking for a practioner, my advice is look at their qualifications obviously and
What post graduate courses and diplomas they've done. Any decent practioner will have a huge skill set and will usually have more than one way of treating any compliant. None of my patients are treated the same way. I use different techniques for each patient depending on what the complaint is and how they respond to different methods of treatment.
Regarding getting chiropractic on the NHS, you can get it but you need to request that you want to see a chiropractor. I have several gps who refer to me on a regular basis and it
Paid for on the NHS. As for seeing physios at an outpatients clinic bear in mind that alot of these physios are newly graduated and won't have alot of clinical experience. Most ofl the decent physios will be private like the chiros and osteos. In terms of the difference between osteopathy and chiropractic, initaily it was down to philosophy. Osteopathy follows the vascular system and chiropractic follows the nervous system. Nowadays there is little difference between the two arts although some practioners will try to make out theirs is the best. In reality the biggest difference will be between practioners and how they practice. As for physios I know some great ones and not so great ones. All I'll say is that they don't learn manipulation like osteos and chiros do regardless what they tell you. My cousin is a physio and I've seen her entire syllabus although they can learn manipulation post grad.
Regarding looking for a practioner, my advice is look at their qualifications obviously and
What post graduate courses and diplomas they've done. Any decent practioner will have a huge skill set and will usually have more than one way of treating any compliant. None of my patients are treated the same way. I use different techniques for each patient depending on what the complaint is and how they respond to different methods of treatment.
I've used chiropracters osteopaths and physios. All did a good job and put me right, for a while.
Speak to your physio about myofascial tissue massage or Google 'trigger point therapy handbook', its awesome. You can do this at home with a tennis ball which is a darn sight cheaper and its helped me out no end. I've had on off problems with elbows for 10yrs and was told by all these people that it was rsi from plastering. After a few weeks of doing this (around scapula and tricep) and the elbow discomfort has gone.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, these people generally do a good job, they cost money and there are usually other/cheaper ways to sort yourself out.
Rich
Speak to your physio about myofascial tissue massage or Google 'trigger point therapy handbook', its awesome. You can do this at home with a tennis ball which is a darn sight cheaper and its helped me out no end. I've had on off problems with elbows for 10yrs and was told by all these people that it was rsi from plastering. After a few weeks of doing this (around scapula and tricep) and the elbow discomfort has gone.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, these people generally do a good job, they cost money and there are usually other/cheaper ways to sort yourself out.
Rich
In reply to yelloman:
I was referred to a chiropractor from the hospital. The doctor actually gave me the choice of a physio or a chiropractor but said that in his experience a chiro was likely to work better for me.
The chiropractor I saw was great, and the treatment 'freed' me up enough that I was able to start doing the exercises that were needed to strengthen the muscles to prevent a recurrence. On it's own if I'd done nothing more I think i'd still be visiting the chiropractor.
I was referred to a chiropractor from the hospital. The doctor actually gave me the choice of a physio or a chiropractor but said that in his experience a chiro was likely to work better for me.
The chiropractor I saw was great, and the treatment 'freed' me up enough that I was able to start doing the exercises that were needed to strengthen the muscles to prevent a recurrence. On it's own if I'd done nothing more I think i'd still be visiting the chiropractor.
In reply to kit perry:
No, I have a chronic back problem and could not climb. I originally saw a Chiropractor but I made no progress. Went to see an osteopath and hey presto I could climb again.
No, I have a chronic back problem and could not climb. I originally saw a Chiropractor but I made no progress. Went to see an osteopath and hey presto I could climb again.
In reply to Christheclimber: It's an expensive and untested form of placebo but with the added risk of causing serious injury and long term damage.
If you think that chiropractors can manipulate joints try doing that with a leg of lamb, a chicken's neck etc etc
That lots of people sweat by osteopaths and chiropractors doesn't mean a thing, wasn't it chiropractors who said that they could cure babies colic, ear aches and other such crap?
If you think that chiropractors can manipulate joints try doing that with a leg of lamb, a chicken's neck etc etc
That lots of people sweat by osteopaths and chiropractors doesn't mean a thing, wasn't it chiropractors who said that they could cure babies colic, ear aches and other such crap?
In reply to Christheclimber: This is exactly my point. The way one practioner works is not necessarily going to work for everyone. It has nothing to do with if they're an Osteopath, chiropractor or physio. Look for the most qualified person in your area who has multiple ways of treating like myofasial release, active release technique, graston, dry needling, ultrasound, TENs, LLLT, kinesio taping etc etc.
As for the statement about chiropractic/osteopathy having no scientific proof on it's effectiveness, there are dozens of research papers proving it's effectiveness, here's a few to peruse.
For Health-Care Professionals > Research
Research Supports Chiropractic
A primary health-care profession with statutory regulation
Chiropractic is a primary health-care profession that specialises in the diagnosis, treatment and overall management of conditions that are due to mechanical dysfunction of the joints, ligaments, tendons and nerves, particularly those of the spine, and their effects on the nervous system.
Numerous studies throughout the world have shown that chiropractic treatment, including manipulative therapy and spinal adjustment, is both safe and effective.
Below is a selection of research papers of relevance and interest.
NICE Guidelines; In May 2009, The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) published new guidelines to improve the early management of persistent non-specific low back pain.
The guidelines recommend what care and advice the NHS should offer to people affected by low back pain.
NICE assessed the effectiveness, safety and cost-effectiveness of available treatments and one recommendation is to offer a course of manual therapy, including spinal manipulation, spinal mobilisation and massage.
This treatment may be provided by a range of health professionals, including chiropractors as spinal manipulation is part of the package of care that chiropractors can offer.
UK Beam Trial; Back pain, exercise and manipulation (UK BEAM) randomised trial: effectiveness of physical treatments for back pain in primary care. British Medical Journal Nov 2004; 329; 1377 (doi: 10.1136 /bmj. 38282. 669225.AE)
Medical Research Council; 'Low Back pain of mechanical origin: randomised comparison of Chiropractic from hospital outpatient treatment'; Meade et al.
Medical Research Council (Follow-up-study) Trial 'Randomised comparison of Chiropractic and hospital outpatient management for low back pain; results from extended follow up'; Meade et al.
RCGP - Clinical Guidelines for the Management of Acute Low Back Pain (1996, 1999, 2001)
Clinical Standards Advisory Group; Backpain Report 1994.
Acute Back Pain - Primary Care Project; The Wiltshire and Bath Health Commission.
Carter JT, Birrell LN (Editors) 2000. Occupational health guidelines for the management of low back pain at work - principal recommendations. Faculty of Occupational Medicine. London. Occupational health guidelines for the management of low back pain at work - leaflet for practitioners. Faculty of Occupational Medicine. London. 2000. Waddell G, Burton AK 2000. Occupational health guidelines for the management of low back pain at work - evidence review. Faculty of Occupational Medicine. London.
Chiropractic Treatment in Workers with Musculoskeletal Complaints; Mark P Blokland DC et al;Journal of the Neuromusculoskeletal System vol 8 No 1, Spring 2000
Musculoskeletal Services Framework – Department of Health. July 2006
The main treatment interventions, as recommended by the current evidence review and that of clinical guidelines is a biopsychosocial approach: a) Guidance on activity, lifestyle, prognosis and prevention. b) Physical treatments drawn from all types of manual therapy, spinal manipulation and rehabilitation exercise. c) Advice about pain control, including non-prescription medication. d) Psychosocial interventions aimed at resolving cognitive barriers to recovery.
Non-rigid stabilisation procedures for the treatment of low back pain – National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence. June 2006
States that chiropractic intervention can be used in the treatment of acute low back pain.
European guidelines for the management of acute nonspecific low back pain in primary care. 2005 Recommends the consideration of spinal manipulation for patients failing to return to normal activities.
As for the statement about chiropractic/osteopathy having no scientific proof on it's effectiveness, there are dozens of research papers proving it's effectiveness, here's a few to peruse.
For Health-Care Professionals > Research
Research Supports Chiropractic
A primary health-care profession with statutory regulation
Chiropractic is a primary health-care profession that specialises in the diagnosis, treatment and overall management of conditions that are due to mechanical dysfunction of the joints, ligaments, tendons and nerves, particularly those of the spine, and their effects on the nervous system.
Numerous studies throughout the world have shown that chiropractic treatment, including manipulative therapy and spinal adjustment, is both safe and effective.
Below is a selection of research papers of relevance and interest.
NICE Guidelines; In May 2009, The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) published new guidelines to improve the early management of persistent non-specific low back pain.
The guidelines recommend what care and advice the NHS should offer to people affected by low back pain.
NICE assessed the effectiveness, safety and cost-effectiveness of available treatments and one recommendation is to offer a course of manual therapy, including spinal manipulation, spinal mobilisation and massage.
This treatment may be provided by a range of health professionals, including chiropractors as spinal manipulation is part of the package of care that chiropractors can offer.
UK Beam Trial; Back pain, exercise and manipulation (UK BEAM) randomised trial: effectiveness of physical treatments for back pain in primary care. British Medical Journal Nov 2004; 329; 1377 (doi: 10.1136 /bmj. 38282. 669225.AE)
Medical Research Council; 'Low Back pain of mechanical origin: randomised comparison of Chiropractic from hospital outpatient treatment'; Meade et al.
Medical Research Council (Follow-up-study) Trial 'Randomised comparison of Chiropractic and hospital outpatient management for low back pain; results from extended follow up'; Meade et al.
RCGP - Clinical Guidelines for the Management of Acute Low Back Pain (1996, 1999, 2001)
Clinical Standards Advisory Group; Backpain Report 1994.
Acute Back Pain - Primary Care Project; The Wiltshire and Bath Health Commission.
Carter JT, Birrell LN (Editors) 2000. Occupational health guidelines for the management of low back pain at work - principal recommendations. Faculty of Occupational Medicine. London. Occupational health guidelines for the management of low back pain at work - leaflet for practitioners. Faculty of Occupational Medicine. London. 2000. Waddell G, Burton AK 2000. Occupational health guidelines for the management of low back pain at work - evidence review. Faculty of Occupational Medicine. London.
Chiropractic Treatment in Workers with Musculoskeletal Complaints; Mark P Blokland DC et al;Journal of the Neuromusculoskeletal System vol 8 No 1, Spring 2000
Musculoskeletal Services Framework – Department of Health. July 2006
The main treatment interventions, as recommended by the current evidence review and that of clinical guidelines is a biopsychosocial approach: a) Guidance on activity, lifestyle, prognosis and prevention. b) Physical treatments drawn from all types of manual therapy, spinal manipulation and rehabilitation exercise. c) Advice about pain control, including non-prescription medication. d) Psychosocial interventions aimed at resolving cognitive barriers to recovery.
Non-rigid stabilisation procedures for the treatment of low back pain – National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence. June 2006
States that chiropractic intervention can be used in the treatment of acute low back pain.
European guidelines for the management of acute nonspecific low back pain in primary care. 2005 Recommends the consideration of spinal manipulation for patients failing to return to normal activities.
In reply to yelloman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myofascial_release
That souns like a load of psuedo scientific cock.
That souns like a load of psuedo scientific cock.
In reply to KTT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Singh#Chiropractic_lawsuit_and_backlash
I have to say that the track record of chiropractic wouldn't make them my first port of call for treatment
I have to say that the track record of chiropractic wouldn't make them my first port of call for treatment
In reply to KTT: Well if you came to that conclusion after reading it on wikipedia I think that says more about your detective skills than anything else
In reply to yelloman: No it sounds as if it's a load of cock.
The soft tissue can become restricted? Really? torn yes? bruised, yes? 'restricted'? does the liver say 'you're grounded you naughty conenctive tissue'?
How does some bloke pummelling my back inprove lymphatic drainage?
The soft tissue can become restricted? Really? torn yes? bruised, yes? 'restricted'? does the liver say 'you're grounded you naughty conenctive tissue'?
How does some bloke pummelling my back inprove lymphatic drainage?
In reply to KTT: Ahh I do love google.
http://www.bmj.com/content/319/7218/1176.extract/reply
The American Medical Association has characterized chiropractic as "an unscientific cult.
The Meade studies do not meet the journal's current criteria for acceptance and should not have been published.
* David S Stodolsky, DSS: Senior Scientist; JDC: Sports/Research Physical Therapist
* Jonathan D Comins
DSS: Institute for Social Informatics, Copenhagen, DK; JDC: Bispebjerg Hospital, Copenhagen,
http://www.bmj.com/content/319/7218/1176.extract/reply
The American Medical Association has characterized chiropractic as "an unscientific cult.
The Meade studies do not meet the journal's current criteria for acceptance and should not have been published.
* David S Stodolsky, DSS: Senior Scientist; JDC: Sports/Research Physical Therapist
* Jonathan D Comins
DSS: Institute for Social Informatics, Copenhagen, DK; JDC: Bispebjerg Hospital, Copenhagen,
In reply to KTT:
I don't know about Chiropractors, but certainly for Osteophath's that's wrong on all three counts. I could not physically move my neck. After a vist to an Osteophath I could. It stiffened up some over the next few days, but not to the extent of before the first visit. Over the next three visits I have a continued improvement. Total cost was about £100.
My friend is an NHS consultant and reports similar results from rugby injuries. All medical practice of course can include an element of placebo benefit. Certainly I know of several doctors who admit to prescribing paracetamol for that reason.
> It's an expensive and untested form of placebo
I don't know about Chiropractors, but certainly for Osteophath's that's wrong on all three counts. I could not physically move my neck. After a vist to an Osteophath I could. It stiffened up some over the next few days, but not to the extent of before the first visit. Over the next three visits I have a continued improvement. Total cost was about £100.
My friend is an NHS consultant and reports similar results from rugby injuries. All medical practice of course can include an element of placebo benefit. Certainly I know of several doctors who admit to prescribing paracetamol for that reason.
In reply to KTT:
Integration of myofascial trigger point release and paradoxical relaxation training treatment of chronic pelvic pain in men[PDF] from chronic-pain-program.comRU Anderson, D Wise, T Sawyer… - The Journal of urology, 2005 - Elsevier
The effect of manual pressure release on myofascial trigger points in the upper trapezius muscleG Fryer, L Hodgson - Journal of Bodywork and Movement Therapies, 2005 - Elsevier
Google is great isn't it! As for your last post you've got one clinical review, it hardly disproves what i've posted. Regardless I can see that you've obviously got a problem with manual therapies and thats fine with me. Its not for everyone, and some of the different techniques used by osteos, chiros, and physios don't have a huge amount of research to support them. However you'll find that a lot of the large premiership footballers and other high profile athletes have their own practioners who they rely on to help maintain optimal condition. AC Milan, tiger woods, lance armstrong all spring to mind, and in my professional career i've successfully treated several GB athletes not to mention several surgeons, GPs all of which have responded very well.
Integration of myofascial trigger point release and paradoxical relaxation training treatment of chronic pelvic pain in men[PDF] from chronic-pain-program.comRU Anderson, D Wise, T Sawyer… - The Journal of urology, 2005 - Elsevier
The effect of manual pressure release on myofascial trigger points in the upper trapezius muscleG Fryer, L Hodgson - Journal of Bodywork and Movement Therapies, 2005 - Elsevier
Google is great isn't it! As for your last post you've got one clinical review, it hardly disproves what i've posted. Regardless I can see that you've obviously got a problem with manual therapies and thats fine with me. Its not for everyone, and some of the different techniques used by osteos, chiros, and physios don't have a huge amount of research to support them. However you'll find that a lot of the large premiership footballers and other high profile athletes have their own practioners who they rely on to help maintain optimal condition. AC Milan, tiger woods, lance armstrong all spring to mind, and in my professional career i've successfully treated several GB athletes not to mention several surgeons, GPs all of which have responded very well.
In reply to KTT:
I think I saw that 75% of Americans don't believe in Evolution, I don't take that much notice of their pronouncements reeli
> The American Medical Association has characterized chiropractic as "an unscientific cult.
I think I saw that 75% of Americans don't believe in Evolution, I don't take that much notice of their pronouncements reeli
In reply to yelloman: Then you'll be aware that anecodte isn't the same as evidence.
There's no doubt that placebo and making people feel better is a bloody good thing but that doesn't mean it has any scientific benefit.
There will be lots of surgeons who are religous, but that doesn't mean that god exists etc
We get indian head massages and similar stuff at work, but that doesn't mean that they work, it's just our employers dhowing the staff how much they value us.
Now perhaps you could tell me how rubbing my arse and lower back will improve the drainage of my lymphatic system?
There's no doubt that placebo and making people feel better is a bloody good thing but that doesn't mean it has any scientific benefit.
There will be lots of surgeons who are religous, but that doesn't mean that god exists etc
We get indian head massages and similar stuff at work, but that doesn't mean that they work, it's just our employers dhowing the staff how much they value us.
Now perhaps you could tell me how rubbing my arse and lower back will improve the drainage of my lymphatic system?
In reply to the power:
I wonder if they say the same about you?
> (In reply to kit perry) worth there weight in gold! sheffield chiropractic clinic chesterfield road woodseats ive been a client for 15 years
I wonder if they say the same about you?
In reply to KTT:
I wouldn't rub your arse or lower back to affect you lymphatic drainage and neither did I say myofasical release would affect the lymphatics.
However since you asked, if you did present in my clinic with lymphodema I'd refer you to your GP for further tests. The GP would most likely send you to a lymphadema clinic were you would be advised to make sure the area affect was carefully wash and dried and inspected on a daily basis. Treatment usually involves diet changes, pump compression and or the massage techniques like ludec or voder.Now although I haven't yet done the qualifications for voder or ludec yet, they are massage techniques (like myofascial release...) but I do know they are well accepted in the medical community.
I hope this satisfies your curiosity
I wouldn't rub your arse or lower back to affect you lymphatic drainage and neither did I say myofasical release would affect the lymphatics.
However since you asked, if you did present in my clinic with lymphodema I'd refer you to your GP for further tests. The GP would most likely send you to a lymphadema clinic were you would be advised to make sure the area affect was carefully wash and dried and inspected on a daily basis. Treatment usually involves diet changes, pump compression and or the massage techniques like ludec or voder.Now although I haven't yet done the qualifications for voder or ludec yet, they are massage techniques (like myofascial release...) but I do know they are well accepted in the medical community.
I hope this satisfies your curiosity
In reply to yelloman: The problem is that chiropractic has made some bizarre claims in the past, and behaved in such an irrational and vindictive way when they were questioned, that it is difficult to take any of it seriously - which are the bit that are sensible and evidence based, and which are the more fanciful aspects, and how can we tell a sensible chiropractitioner from the ones who think it a suitable treatment for colic or asthma?
In reply to kit perry:
I am an extreme sceptic when it comes to alternative medicine. However, it is undeniable that something actually physical is happening when a chiropractor "crunches" your spine. A few years back I had a bout of awful lower back pain (struggling to move at all). I was recommended a chiropractor, had three (expensive) sessions in a week and the following weekend was out winter climbing. Yes, anecdotal, but the pain had been building up for several weeks, and its rapid removal seemed pretty miraculous and I doubt the timing was coincidental. I had quite a few follow up sessions and the chiropractor seemed to be able to nip further attacks in the bud over the next few years. However, when I got a bad bout of sciatica, the chiropractic seemed to be ineffective and I tried a recommended osteopath who seemed to sort it out pretty effectively. The osteopath did exactly the same spine crunches as the chiropractor, but also gave much more specific massage and stretches.
My feeling is that chiropractors can be excellent if your complaint is something they can deal with. Unfortuinately, I suspect that they do try to do stuff at which they are not so effective and are therefore not the best choice. Some of the extreme claims (I believe not by any means made by all chiropractors) regarding "energy flow" etc. are obviously bollocks. Basically they are good at shoving some joints (in my case the one between spine and pelvis) back into correct alignment.
I am an extreme sceptic when it comes to alternative medicine. However, it is undeniable that something actually physical is happening when a chiropractor "crunches" your spine. A few years back I had a bout of awful lower back pain (struggling to move at all). I was recommended a chiropractor, had three (expensive) sessions in a week and the following weekend was out winter climbing. Yes, anecdotal, but the pain had been building up for several weeks, and its rapid removal seemed pretty miraculous and I doubt the timing was coincidental. I had quite a few follow up sessions and the chiropractor seemed to be able to nip further attacks in the bud over the next few years. However, when I got a bad bout of sciatica, the chiropractic seemed to be ineffective and I tried a recommended osteopath who seemed to sort it out pretty effectively. The osteopath did exactly the same spine crunches as the chiropractor, but also gave much more specific massage and stretches.
My feeling is that chiropractors can be excellent if your complaint is something they can deal with. Unfortuinately, I suspect that they do try to do stuff at which they are not so effective and are therefore not the best choice. Some of the extreme claims (I believe not by any means made by all chiropractors) regarding "energy flow" etc. are obviously bollocks. Basically they are good at shoving some joints (in my case the one between spine and pelvis) back into correct alignment.
In reply to toad: I couldn't agree more. Its unfortuate that a few very stupid and unscrupulous practioners have made some bizarre claims to the detriment of all of the other practioners who are practising ethically and established good working relationships with their local GP's and athletic teams. My own personal feeling is those practioners claiming to treat colic and asthma should be struck off.
However my original reason for posting before being drawn into a discussion on myofascal release was to inform anyone potentaily looking for a manual therapist to look for someone with lots of experience who should have amassed lots of other techniques for treating them. Robert durran highlights this when he said that the osteopath he saw did more massage and soft tissue work and stretching than the chiropractor he saw prior. Both chiropractors and osteopaths in the UK have almost identical syllabus and therefore learn a lot of similar techniques. I have friends and family who have graduated from both chiropractic colleges and three of the osteopathic colleges and it was all very similar. Therefore look for a practioner who has taken the time to explore other techniques postgraduate.
However my original reason for posting before being drawn into a discussion on myofascal release was to inform anyone potentaily looking for a manual therapist to look for someone with lots of experience who should have amassed lots of other techniques for treating them. Robert durran highlights this when he said that the osteopath he saw did more massage and soft tissue work and stretching than the chiropractor he saw prior. Both chiropractors and osteopaths in the UK have almost identical syllabus and therefore learn a lot of similar techniques. I have friends and family who have graduated from both chiropractic colleges and three of the osteopathic colleges and it was all very similar. Therefore look for a practioner who has taken the time to explore other techniques postgraduate.
In reply to kit perry:
I've been to an Osteopath many times over the years for a variety of reasons but they're really good at finding out what the source of the problem is and dealing with it, often something like a sore back or neck seems to come from having a leg or foot injury that changes your weight distribution slightly and makes your spine twist or kink.
My sister used to get dreadful headaches but after seeing an osteopath he told her she'd sprained her ankle when she was younger, he sorted out what was wrong with her foot and leg and then her headaches went away.
It does help that I see a guy who's a climber as well.
I've been to an Osteopath many times over the years for a variety of reasons but they're really good at finding out what the source of the problem is and dealing with it, often something like a sore back or neck seems to come from having a leg or foot injury that changes your weight distribution slightly and makes your spine twist or kink.
My sister used to get dreadful headaches but after seeing an osteopath he told her she'd sprained her ankle when she was younger, he sorted out what was wrong with her foot and leg and then her headaches went away.
It does help that I see a guy who's a climber as well.
In reply to Guy Atkinson:
what is the price difference between osteopaths and chiropractors?
It is more a niggling ache that causes discomfort then painful so am not willing to fork out hundreds of pounds. Especially if it will eventually go away. I am just worried it might get worse if I don't do anything about it, like my spine being slightly twisted and all this time it is not straight damage is being done.
what is the price difference between osteopaths and chiropractors?
It is more a niggling ache that causes discomfort then painful so am not willing to fork out hundreds of pounds. Especially if it will eventually go away. I am just worried it might get worse if I don't do anything about it, like my spine being slightly twisted and all this time it is not straight damage is being done.
In reply to kit perry: There shouldn't be much difference in price between an osteo or chiro. Depends where you live in the UK though. London tends to be more expensive though.
In reply to Sl@te Head:
So; if I get some really tight shorts it will take my mind off my back/knees etc?
So; if I get some really tight shorts it will take my mind off my back/knees etc?
In reply to Bulls Crack: Who knows, but hell its worth a try!
In reply to Bulls Crack:
yeah i reckon. Admittedly because all you will be able to think about is a more immediate pain.
For the OP: i would be a tad careful, Chiros would appear to run the gauntlet from being effective physical massage to out and out woo.
would try an alternate physio first.
> So; if I get some really tight shorts it will take my mind off my back/knees etc?
yeah i reckon. Admittedly because all you will be able to think about is a more immediate pain.
For the OP: i would be a tad careful, Chiros would appear to run the gauntlet from being effective physical massage to out and out woo.
would try an alternate physio first.
In reply to kit perry:
Read about the chiropractors' libel action against Simon Singh and make up your own mind.
As stated above a good physiotherapist is probably your best bet.
Read about the chiropractors' libel action against Simon Singh and make up your own mind.
As stated above a good physiotherapist is probably your best bet.
In reply to kit perry:
I don't think they are much good on backs, from what I know. But one did a good job with Mrs Num Num's bunion, Which is I think what they're best with
I don't think they are much good on backs, from what I know. But one did a good job with Mrs Num Num's bunion, Which is I think what they're best with
In reply to kit perry: I'm a big fan of evidence based medicine, and if you look at the big meta-analyses (studies which examine the results of many other studies) on chiropractic treatment, there's an alarming variance in the success rates depending on the complaint, and some treatments are thought to risk [causing] harm.
If you want to go for chiropractic treatment, I'd reccomend discussing the problem with your GP and if he's unable to provide suitable treatment options or reccomends a chiropractor, going to consult your chosen chiropractor about his proposed treatment, and then researching it (and if you feel it neccessary, consulting your GP again) before you go for it.
If you want to go for chiropractic treatment, I'd reccomend discussing the problem with your GP and if he's unable to provide suitable treatment options or reccomends a chiropractor, going to consult your chosen chiropractor about his proposed treatment, and then researching it (and if you feel it neccessary, consulting your GP again) before you go for it.
In reply to tlm:
Firstly yes Chiropractors are scientifically proven.
I would say ensure you go to a mixed Chiropractor rather than a straight Chiropractor. This refers to their methods of treatment. (Straight being the traditional subluxation lead theories with little scientific evidence, Mixed being a fully holistic Primary Care Consultant that takes into account and practices a range of different treatments from manipulations (Chiro style treatments) mobilisations (Oestopathic style treatments) muscle stripping and massage (Physiotherapy Style Treatment) to name a few.
This means that they can perform the best treatment for each individual injury and will be able to help you.
Yes I am biased as I am training as a Chiropractor. An osteopath or a Chiropractor would be able to treat your injury, it is just different approaches to the treatment, after both styles you are likely to have muscle soreness and potentially bruising in the area treated.
But to say there is no scientific evidence to prove chiro works? Do you really think it would last as it has in this day and become a registered profession (i.e. a minimum of 4 years training before you can practice) with no scientific evidence?
To the OP I hope you sort your back out, get to a Chiro or an Osteopath and they will b able to help you.
Chris
> (In reply to kit perry)
> Chiropractors are not scientifically proven and this is only my own experience with one particular back problem and one particular chiropractor so I have no idea if it would be of any use in your own case.
Firstly yes Chiropractors are scientifically proven.
I would say ensure you go to a mixed Chiropractor rather than a straight Chiropractor. This refers to their methods of treatment. (Straight being the traditional subluxation lead theories with little scientific evidence, Mixed being a fully holistic Primary Care Consultant that takes into account and practices a range of different treatments from manipulations (Chiro style treatments) mobilisations (Oestopathic style treatments) muscle stripping and massage (Physiotherapy Style Treatment) to name a few.
This means that they can perform the best treatment for each individual injury and will be able to help you.
Yes I am biased as I am training as a Chiropractor. An osteopath or a Chiropractor would be able to treat your injury, it is just different approaches to the treatment, after both styles you are likely to have muscle soreness and potentially bruising in the area treated.
But to say there is no scientific evidence to prove chiro works? Do you really think it would last as it has in this day and become a registered profession (i.e. a minimum of 4 years training before you can practice) with no scientific evidence?
To the OP I hope you sort your back out, get to a Chiro or an Osteopath and they will b able to help you.
Chris
In reply to kit perry: I have a very crappy back and due to my job involving lots if lifting and pulling whilst twisting and being in cramped spaces I have a lot if back problems.
Over the years I have tried a few different chiropractors and Physios. The chiropractors have all told me that my spine needs adjusting and after a couple of sessions being twisted and all sorts of popping noises from my back the pain goes away.
The Physios tell me that it is muscle damage and give me exercises to help it. That has never really made a difference.
These days I just spend a few days in bed and go back to work with enough pain killers to kill a horse and try to take it easy till the pain stops. I can't afford to see the chiropractor every couple of months.
Over the years I have tried a few different chiropractors and Physios. The chiropractors have all told me that my spine needs adjusting and after a couple of sessions being twisted and all sorts of popping noises from my back the pain goes away.
The Physios tell me that it is muscle damage and give me exercises to help it. That has never really made a difference.
These days I just spend a few days in bed and go back to work with enough pain killers to kill a horse and try to take it easy till the pain stops. I can't afford to see the chiropractor every couple of months.
In reply to chrisbaggy:
So, in answer to the OP, if you have chronic low back pain, it might be worth a spin, if you can afford it. There isn't much that is proven to make a difference in chronic back pain!
It should be noted that spinal manipulation, particularly around the neck area, is not completely without risks, and some people would debate whether the potential benefits outweigh these.
> (In reply to tlm)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
>
> Firstly yes Chiropractors are scientifically proven.
>
I believe there is some evidence of effectiveness of chiropractic techniques in low back pain, although this is a notoriously difficult area to measure objectively. But, as far as I'm aware, I've yet to see any convincing evidence of the benefits of attending a chiropractor for anything else. Most studies into chiropractic either give conflicting results or are not particular sound in terms of the way they are conducted.> [...]
>
> [...]
>
>
> Firstly yes Chiropractors are scientifically proven.
>
So, in answer to the OP, if you have chronic low back pain, it might be worth a spin, if you can afford it. There isn't much that is proven to make a difference in chronic back pain!
It should be noted that spinal manipulation, particularly around the neck area, is not completely without risks, and some people would debate whether the potential benefits outweigh these.
In reply to chrisbaggy:
The decision to regulate chiropractic via the 1994 Act should not be seen as some kind of validation of the efficacy of its techniques - it was put in place because chiropractic is legal, but the public need to be protected from practitioners who set up shop without indemnity insurance and without training in the safest methods of manipulation.
> (In reply to tlm)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
>
>
> But to say there is no scientific evidence to prove chiro works? Do you really think it would last as it has in this day and become a registered profession (i.e. a minimum of 4 years training before you can practice) with no scientific evidence?
>
Plenty of conventional medicines and treatments are offered on a very limited or flawed evidence base - including some offered for chronic low back pain - TENS etc. It just happens that the evidence base for much of chiropractic is pretty weak.> [...]
>
> [...]
>
>
>
> But to say there is no scientific evidence to prove chiro works? Do you really think it would last as it has in this day and become a registered profession (i.e. a minimum of 4 years training before you can practice) with no scientific evidence?
>
The decision to regulate chiropractic via the 1994 Act should not be seen as some kind of validation of the efficacy of its techniques - it was put in place because chiropractic is legal, but the public need to be protected from practitioners who set up shop without indemnity insurance and without training in the safest methods of manipulation.
In reply to MHutch:
Yes there is a risk.
Ive just looked through some peer reviewed journals.
Serious complications from lumbar spinal manipulation are estimated to be in 1 case per 100million manipulations.
Various authors of papers have quoted cervical manipulation to be between 3 to 6 per 10million manipulations.
In 1994 the US agency for health care policy and research concluded that spinal manipulation was safe and effective for acute low back pain, with a strength of evidence similar to the presciption of NSAIDs.
Theres some research for the risks and potential benefits, like there are some risks and side effects from Drugs.
> It should be noted that spinal manipulation, particularly around the neck area, is not completely without risks, and some people would debate whether the potential benefits outweigh these.
Yes there is a risk.
Ive just looked through some peer reviewed journals.
Serious complications from lumbar spinal manipulation are estimated to be in 1 case per 100million manipulations.
Various authors of papers have quoted cervical manipulation to be between 3 to 6 per 10million manipulations.
In 1994 the US agency for health care policy and research concluded that spinal manipulation was safe and effective for acute low back pain, with a strength of evidence similar to the presciption of NSAIDs.
Theres some research for the risks and potential benefits, like there are some risks and side effects from Drugs.
In reply to chrisbaggy:
One case per 100 million?
Surely that is effectively no risk?
Considering 1 in every 320,000 climbs results in a fatality. You are therefore 300 times less likely to get an injury by visiting a chiropractor then you are die from climbing a route.
I am seeing the physio tomorrow. I'll ask him about his opinions on chiropractors.
> Serious complications from lumbar spinal manipulation are estimated to be in 1 case per 100million manipulations.
One case per 100 million?
Surely that is effectively no risk?
Considering 1 in every 320,000 climbs results in a fatality. You are therefore 300 times less likely to get an injury by visiting a chiropractor then you are die from climbing a route.
I am seeing the physio tomorrow. I'll ask him about his opinions on chiropractors.
In reply to kit perry:
after the whole Simon Singh incident, i wouldn't touch chiropractors with a barge pole.
I've always thought osteopathy was an entirely different school/approach. For joint/muscle pains, I've had a huge amount of a success. I wouldn't go to one for other problems, because you cant fix your tv by banging your microwave, but if it's joint/muscle injuries particularly from sport. Got to go
after the whole Simon Singh incident, i wouldn't touch chiropractors with a barge pole.
I've always thought osteopathy was an entirely different school/approach. For joint/muscle pains, I've had a huge amount of a success. I wouldn't go to one for other problems, because you cant fix your tv by banging your microwave, but if it's joint/muscle injuries particularly from sport. Got to go
In reply to kit perry:
i think you you have made a wise decision.....and hopefully the correct one.
> I am seeing the physio tomorrow. I'll ask him about his opinions on chiropractors.
i think you you have made a wise decision.....and hopefully the correct one.
In reply to Kemics:
You're thinking of hairdressers, I think.
> after the whole Simon Singh incident, i wouldn't touch chiropractors with a barge pole.
You're thinking of hairdressers, I think.
In reply to Kemics:
I've always thought osteopathy was an entirely different school/approach.
Traditionally the Osteopaths and Chiropractors believed that energy flowed around the body. Osteopaths believed this evergy travelled around the vascular system whereas Chiropractors believed it travelled around the nervous system.
Obviously Views have changed etc now and Chiropractors use adjustments (High Velocity Low Amplitude movements) and Osteopaths use mobilisation (low Velocity High Amplitute movements).
As I said in an earlier post Chrios and Osteos use both techniques to be as holistic in their approach as possible.
Hope this clears up your views on the differences between the two.
Chris
> (In reply to kit perry)
I've always thought osteopathy was an entirely different school/approach.
Traditionally the Osteopaths and Chiropractors believed that energy flowed around the body. Osteopaths believed this evergy travelled around the vascular system whereas Chiropractors believed it travelled around the nervous system.
Obviously Views have changed etc now and Chiropractors use adjustments (High Velocity Low Amplitude movements) and Osteopaths use mobilisation (low Velocity High Amplitute movements).
As I said in an earlier post Chrios and Osteos use both techniques to be as holistic in their approach as possible.
Hope this clears up your views on the differences between the two.
Chris
In reply to kit perry:
Now you know Chiro's frustration when people accuse us of causing injury etc and give us generally bad press.
Just be aware that thats like going to a fiat garage and asking them what a ford fiesta is like!
> (In reply to chrisbaggy)
>
> [...]
>
> One case per 100 million?
>
> Surely that is effectively no risk?
>
> [...]
>
> One case per 100 million?
>
> Surely that is effectively no risk?
Now you know Chiro's frustration when people accuse us of causing injury etc and give us generally bad press.
> I am seeing the physio tomorrow. I'll ask him about his opinions on chiropractors.
Just be aware that thats like going to a fiat garage and asking them what a ford fiesta is like!
In reply to kit perry: I'd agree about about being wary of a practice that goes to sue it's critics (Simon Singh) see Ben Goldacres site
http://www.badscience.net/index.php?s=chiropractors
See a good Sports Physio to see what the underlying cause is.
I was also on crutches for six months after breaking a leg and personaly found that yoga helped get me back to normal.
Take it easy, don't expect miracule cures and listen to what your body is telling you, if it's hurting there is a reason for it.
http://www.badscience.net/index.php?s=chiropractors
See a good Sports Physio to see what the underlying cause is.
I was also on crutches for six months after breaking a leg and personaly found that yoga helped get me back to normal.
Take it easy, don't expect miracule cures and listen to what your body is telling you, if it's hurting there is a reason for it.
In reply to kit perry: My wife saw a lady when she was a medical student who had been crippled by a Chiropractor. They had failed to spot the underlying health issue which led to a broken neck upon manipulation.
See the bad science link above.
Cheers
Toby
See the bad science link above.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to chrisbaggy: 'Traditionally the Osteopaths and Chiropractors believed that energy flowed around the body. Osteopaths believed this evergy travelled around the vascular system whereas Chiropractors believed it travelled around the nervous system.'
Would you care to define define 'traditionally'? Pre history? The Middle Ages? Early Victorians? Or ... the 1970s?
Would you care to define define 'traditionally'? Pre history? The Middle Ages? Early Victorians? Or ... the 1970s?
In reply to kit perry:
Having offered my advice to the OP regarding his post I had planned to ignore this thread but some of the things being posted are getting up my back. I want to try and help clear some things up and try to clarify a few points so people can make a more informed choice regarding manual therapists in the future.
Rob ward
'Traditionally the Osteopaths and Chiropractors believed that energy flowed around the body. Osteopaths believed this evergy travelled around the vascular system whereas Chiropractors believed it travelled around the nervous system.'
Would you care to define define 'traditionally'? Pre history? The Middle Ages? Early Victorians? Or ... the 1970s?
Osteopathy and chiropractic share a common origin. Their roots can be found in folk traditions of “bone setting,” and both were systematised in the late 19th century in the United States: Daniel D Palmer, the founder of chiropractic, is said to have met with Andrew Taylor Still, the founder of osteopathy some time around 1874 before setting up his own school
Toby W
My wife saw a lady when she was a medical student who had been crippled by a Chiropractor. They had failed to spot the underlying health issue which led to a broken neck upon manipulation.
An unfortunate story but misdiagnosis happens while usually inexcusable happens in every branch of healthcare, it does not mean that just because one chiropractor failed to spot an underlying health issue that every chiropractor will. Misdiagnosis while terrible happens. My own brother and best friend who are doctors remember being told in their final year of med school right before they graduated that statistically each person in the room would be directly responsible for a patients death within the next five years. Now I'm not sure if I can believe that statement but when you look at recent stats that show that 3,645 patients died as a result of outbreaks of infections, botched operations and other mistakes in 2007/08. The Patients Association stated that one in every 300 NHS patients were killed because of medical blunder, the lib dems figures were even higher, showing that 385 died in 2007/2008 due to botched operations and 156 because scans were read wrongly or patients incorrectly diagnosed.
I've just finished treating two long term patients, with neck problems, both are head and neck surgeons, one of which is one of the best in the uk. I asked him his thoughts on neck manipulation and told me he didn't think the risks were high enough to worry about, but misdiagnosis was.
My point is misdiagnosis happens in every field of healthcare and chiropractors and osteopaths have to go through extremely comprehensive training and misdiagnosis is very very rare.
Finally the whole simon singh mess.
Gareth
I'd agree about about being wary of a practice that goes to sue it's critics (Simon Singh) see Ben Goldacres site
http://www.badscience.net/index.php?s=chiropractors
Firstly let me start by saying that the BCA had no business going after simon singh, and the vast majority of chiropractors in the uk (I think it was around 72%) didn't want any action taken against him. But the BCA did it anyway and there is nothing we could do about it! From what i've heard from other researchers he is a lousy researcher, constantly referencing his own work. Still he didn't deserve to be dragged through the courts like that and all the BCA have done is make people in my profession look bad. Simon Singh did have a good point though in bringing to light questionable claims such as treating colic, and ear infections. There is some inconclusive evidence for colic i believe but not ear infections. Still its an area that needs to have more research. My point is the actions of the BCA were not in line with what the majority of chiropractors in the UK wanted.
Finally "Obviously Views have changed etc now and Chiropractors use adjustments (High Velocity Low Amplitude movements) and Osteopaths use mobilisation (low Velocity High Amplitute movements)."
Not true, we all use a fair mix of both techniques and what a chiro or osteo uses will be down to their personal preferances, body shape/size and the patients.
Hope this helps to clear up some of these areas, and anyone who still thinks that chiropractors aren't effective and safe should have a look at Jean Pierre Meersseman, Belgian director of the Milan Lab for AC Milan. The Milan Lab began in 2002. Milan had just spent €30m in transfer fees and salary to sign Real Madrid’s Fernando Redondo. Redondo’s body appeared perfect. Then it collapsed. Milan resolved never to waste €30m again. The Lab was created to reduce injuries. Within one season the injury rate had dropped by 90% and the use of medication was down 92%. Coincidence? I think not!
Having offered my advice to the OP regarding his post I had planned to ignore this thread but some of the things being posted are getting up my back. I want to try and help clear some things up and try to clarify a few points so people can make a more informed choice regarding manual therapists in the future.
Rob ward
'Traditionally the Osteopaths and Chiropractors believed that energy flowed around the body. Osteopaths believed this evergy travelled around the vascular system whereas Chiropractors believed it travelled around the nervous system.'
Would you care to define define 'traditionally'? Pre history? The Middle Ages? Early Victorians? Or ... the 1970s?
Osteopathy and chiropractic share a common origin. Their roots can be found in folk traditions of “bone setting,” and both were systematised in the late 19th century in the United States: Daniel D Palmer, the founder of chiropractic, is said to have met with Andrew Taylor Still, the founder of osteopathy some time around 1874 before setting up his own school
Toby W
My wife saw a lady when she was a medical student who had been crippled by a Chiropractor. They had failed to spot the underlying health issue which led to a broken neck upon manipulation.
An unfortunate story but misdiagnosis happens while usually inexcusable happens in every branch of healthcare, it does not mean that just because one chiropractor failed to spot an underlying health issue that every chiropractor will. Misdiagnosis while terrible happens. My own brother and best friend who are doctors remember being told in their final year of med school right before they graduated that statistically each person in the room would be directly responsible for a patients death within the next five years. Now I'm not sure if I can believe that statement but when you look at recent stats that show that 3,645 patients died as a result of outbreaks of infections, botched operations and other mistakes in 2007/08. The Patients Association stated that one in every 300 NHS patients were killed because of medical blunder, the lib dems figures were even higher, showing that 385 died in 2007/2008 due to botched operations and 156 because scans were read wrongly or patients incorrectly diagnosed.
I've just finished treating two long term patients, with neck problems, both are head and neck surgeons, one of which is one of the best in the uk. I asked him his thoughts on neck manipulation and told me he didn't think the risks were high enough to worry about, but misdiagnosis was.
My point is misdiagnosis happens in every field of healthcare and chiropractors and osteopaths have to go through extremely comprehensive training and misdiagnosis is very very rare.
Finally the whole simon singh mess.
Gareth
I'd agree about about being wary of a practice that goes to sue it's critics (Simon Singh) see Ben Goldacres site
http://www.badscience.net/index.php?s=chiropractors
Firstly let me start by saying that the BCA had no business going after simon singh, and the vast majority of chiropractors in the uk (I think it was around 72%) didn't want any action taken against him. But the BCA did it anyway and there is nothing we could do about it! From what i've heard from other researchers he is a lousy researcher, constantly referencing his own work. Still he didn't deserve to be dragged through the courts like that and all the BCA have done is make people in my profession look bad. Simon Singh did have a good point though in bringing to light questionable claims such as treating colic, and ear infections. There is some inconclusive evidence for colic i believe but not ear infections. Still its an area that needs to have more research. My point is the actions of the BCA were not in line with what the majority of chiropractors in the UK wanted.
Finally "Obviously Views have changed etc now and Chiropractors use adjustments (High Velocity Low Amplitude movements) and Osteopaths use mobilisation (low Velocity High Amplitute movements)."
Not true, we all use a fair mix of both techniques and what a chiro or osteo uses will be down to their personal preferances, body shape/size and the patients.
Hope this helps to clear up some of these areas, and anyone who still thinks that chiropractors aren't effective and safe should have a look at Jean Pierre Meersseman, Belgian director of the Milan Lab for AC Milan. The Milan Lab began in 2002. Milan had just spent €30m in transfer fees and salary to sign Real Madrid’s Fernando Redondo. Redondo’s body appeared perfect. Then it collapsed. Milan resolved never to waste €30m again. The Lab was created to reduce injuries. Within one season the injury rate had dropped by 90% and the use of medication was down 92%. Coincidence? I think not!
In reply to yelloman: Chiropractor are, basically, quacks. See the following for a very detailed explanation of why
http://www.chirobase.org/
http://www.chirobase.org/
In reply to MG: I know the site well thanks, its one of my favourite. You obviously didn't take the time to read all of it though, as the site is very pro science/evidence based chiropractors and against the chiropractors claiming to be able to treat things like colic, ear infections. I'm in complete agreement with a majority of the articles on there. But are you honestly going to try to say that all chiropractors are like that??
In reply to yelloman:
Have you thought of getting it looked at?
> (In reply to kit perry)
>
> some of the things being posted are getting up my back.
>
> some of the things being posted are getting up my back.
Have you thought of getting it looked at?
In reply to winhill: Thinking about it!
In reply to kit perry:
Remember that injuries often get better over time.
Going to the chiropractor may have been as useful as if you had spent you time sitting on your bed shouting "DEVIL DEVIL OUT OUT OUT"
Scientific studies consistently show that chiropractors are no better than over the counter pain killers.
Remember that injuries often get better over time.
Going to the chiropractor may have been as useful as if you had spent you time sitting on your bed shouting "DEVIL DEVIL OUT OUT OUT"
Scientific studies consistently show that chiropractors are no better than over the counter pain killers.
In reply to John1923:
I'd be interested in seeing those studies...
I'd be interested in seeing those studies...
In reply to John1923: But for chronic spinal conditions that arn't going to get better over time, and even those that will, then any form of treatment to manage a condition has got to be better than long term use of pain killers.
Chiropractic is the one thing that keeps my spine, surrounding ligamenture and muscle mobilised, as recommended to me by Scotland's top spinal surgeon.
It's horses for courses though, for some Chiropractic will help, for others Osteo and for others Physio. Chiropractic is best for my spine, whereas I found Physio great for tendon problems.
Chiropractic is the one thing that keeps my spine, surrounding ligamenture and muscle mobilised, as recommended to me by Scotland's top spinal surgeon.
It's horses for courses though, for some Chiropractic will help, for others Osteo and for others Physio. Chiropractic is best for my spine, whereas I found Physio great for tendon problems.
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