UKC

see u tube,Valentina Mishina for a ripped physique.

I'd rather not.

Dear God, my eyes!!!!!!!

That is some impressive dedication to achieve that level of low body fat and muscles!

Awful!

Yes. Only dedication and good old fashioned hard work could ever get a Russian female looking that massive and ripped.....

Remind me why she's putting so much effort into this. I understand that looks alone are a major incentive for some people to go to great lengths to improve, but personally it leaves me a bit baffled as to why it could be so important as to justify such a huge effort. And yes, I recognise that climbing itself is a pretty futile pursuit but in my opinion it has considerably more laudable direction than the pursuit of body image, although I appreciate that isn't based on much that is genuinely tangible or supportable. I suppose that's why I'm a climber and not a body-builder!

Laudable or not, I suppose part of it is the ‘journey’ people go on to get there. Like all those seemingly pointless hobbies, sports and pastimes people take part in, it’s the learning, discipline, hard work, friends, highs, lows, etc that people experience along the way the helps make them special and memorable for the person concerned. 

You're right, of course. It's like trying to understand how somebody's favourite colour could be yellow, when it's obvious to you that the best colour is purple!

...and I'm far more impressed that she has done this than sat on the sofa, watching TV, filling her face and blaming "genetics" for being overweight. 

Seems like we're fast approaching the point where the later is more socially acceptable than what she has done.

It's a funny one, a friend's younger sister gave up gymnastics when she was an impressionable teenager, because some boys started calling her 'Dave' because she could do pull ups and was stronger than them, she grew self conscious of her arms and became another unmuscled young female, to fit in with one concept of being feminine. I always thought that was a shame. 

It’s not difficult at all.

Climbing and gymnastics are perfectly normal and natural activities for human beings. 

Limiting your food intake and spending excessive time in the gym to achieve an extreme look. Isn’t. 

This.

And probably having some sort of mental health issue.

If it was spending all the time climbing you wouldn’t bat an eyelid at big shoulders or forearms. Not everyone enjoys climbing.

Spending all your time climbing isn’t normal or healthy either.

Interesting, I got 4 dislikes for this so I guess those 4 people love to see a hugely muscular female.  I really dont find anything about her physique attractive or impressive in the same way that I dont find hugely muscular men impressive. 

I prefer to see a healthy looking female who isn't overly obsessed with her appearance, a healthy, balanced attitude to diet and a healthy balanced attitude toward exercise.  A bit like my lovely wife really.

It's not about physical attraction, it's about what people want to do with their lives and bodies.

She's obviously spent a lot of time, effort (and industrial quantities of 'supplements') to acheive that look, so fair play to her.

It's a balence as always. There is a 'normal' zone within the range of female body types which most men find attractive, the further away from this normal zone aawoman goes, the smaller percentage of men will find that woman attractive.

Of course there is no obligation for a women to try and be attractive to men. It comes down to personal priorities. There is a trade off to getting a super specialized body for elite sport proformance, yes you get to achieve your sporting goals but you have to accept a smaller percentage of men will find you attractive. It all comes down to how much a woman vaules that compared to what they want to achieve in thier sports. 

Same applies to men of course although they do tend to have a bit more leeway, but you only need to look and the withered pale torsos of male elite cyclists etc to get the idea. 

It's a balence as always. There is a 'normal' zone within the range of female body types which most men find attractive, the further away from this normal zone aawoman goes, the smaller percentage of men will find that woman attractive.

Of course there is no obligation for a women to try and be attractive to men. It comes down to personal priorities. There is a trade off to getting a super specialized body for elite sport proformance, yes you get to achieve your sporting goals but you have to accept a smaller percentage of men will find you attractive. It all comes down to how much a woman vaules that compared to what they want to achieve in thier sports. 

Same applies to men of course although they do tend to have a bit more leeway, but you only need to look and the withered pale torsos of male elite cyclists etc to get the idea. 

Have you considered that maybe women do things for other reasons than to please the aesthetic sensibilities of men? 

Reminds me of the comment Clive James once made about Arnold Schwarzenegger

"Looks like a condom full of walnuts"

She's probably doing herself more harm in her efforts to achieve this than most people do to themselves who lead a normal lifestyle. 
If a role model is needed for a healthy lifestyle, then she's probably no better than your person sat on the sofa, watching TV and filling her face.

Seems like one is being hugely negative about a female's appearance. I thought this was no longer allowed?

Muscle shaming?

I find Jessica Ennis to be one of the "hottest" women on the planet. She's not far removed from this level of muscle.

Would you say that to her face?

???

She is a long way from that kind of muscle. 

Jessica Innes’ physique is the result of training for a sport. Quite possibly it can be argued that professional  Athletes are pretty obsessive and have mental issues. 

Training all your life for 10seconds of running? Or 400m of rowing? Or being able to kick a ball into a net.

I wonder why we hold these people in such high regard. It’s a bit odd if you think about it too deeply. 

A very musical brother who plays a lot and teaches, said that if it wasn't music (or something similar like art), he might be thought of as maladjusted, through having 'a need to play' like he does.

In the end, I think anybody who excels at something can serve to inspire us when doing something similar, or to simply 'aim for excellence' in anything we do. I guess it can seem odd with one perspective, or understandable with a different one*?

* I think most of human life is odd if thought about too deeply. What can one do, while inescapably being human? 

They're held in high regard because they have developed abilities that less than 1% of people are capable of doing, and large numbers of people enjoy consuming (watching).

Not that odd if you think about it.

she looks like she's made up from an assortment of sausages

Which isn't to imply I don't think, it's more that there's seemingly not so much one can do about it in the end (except to think and look for meaning in different ways), we're possibly 'prisoners of our biology' if you like.

Maybe odd.  But I think it could equally be put down to healthy competitiveness and self-discipline.

I know a girl who carried a fair bit of excess weight for as long as I'd known her.  To my knowledge she had never shown any interest in gym work, loved cake making, and seemed entirely happy or unaware that she was pretty chunky.  I didn't see her for half a year or so and the next time I met her she was competing in amateur body-building competitions.

Admittedly she had always been regarded as neurotic.  But it took a lot of dedication to diet and exercise to the level she did, in her late 30s, with no prior experience.  So I suspect that worked in her favour - it just needed focus.  She looked great, seemed very happy and energised, had people to compete with and a circle of like-minded friends.

The posing side of it I find weird, and there's possibly a degree of excessive body-consciousness.  Though maybe no more than anyone on a particular diet regime would go through.  And it doesn't strike me as much worse than wives and girlfriends spending hours in front of the mirror every day.  If they are getting seriously strong at the same time, then that is quite impressive. They're not the types of girls who are going to be looking for a man to carry the suitcases or lift the boxes!

Fitness models are, in my opinion, the most fantastic looking women around.  The line between them and their body-building sisters can be pretty thin - with the body-builders mainly looking excessive if they are juicing or stripping down their weight before a competition.  Some of this Russian girl's photos look excessive, but some look pretty reasonable too.

I also think that's a shame.  I referred to my wife earlier, who in her early days was a gymnast.  She is also slightly more muscular than the average woman, and at almost 50 can walk on her hands the entire length of the garden but there is nothing unfeminine about her.  

True enough

Do you find this type of physique attractive in a woman?

I also find Jess to be incredibly attractive but she is a million miles away from that level.  

shes a poor mans Jodi Marsh  

It's not mentally healthy to spend that much time distorting your appearance so much, with no function other than aesthetics. Almost certainly indicative of some underlying mental health issue. 

Does it matter?

What has it got to do with someone’s decision to change their physical appearance. She’s never met me so why in the world would it be for my benefit?

All that aside, if she has created this look solely for the appreciation of males (or females, or though hey tend to be less superficial) then it’s unbelievably arrogant to assume that just because you don’t personally find it appealing, that she has failed in some way. 

Everyone has their personal preferences and there is a huge amount of guys and girls that would die to get close to this person.

Stop being such a dick. 

Some serious steroid use/abuse has gone into that physique. A huge amount of effort too but the amount of over-training that drugs will allow you to do, added to the effects caused by hormone imbalance surely can't be a good thing long term.

No climber would ever abuse their body like that...

At what point have I said that shes doing it for me or males.  I simply said 'my eyes!!!!' and qualified that with saying that she looks awful in my opinion. Many females would probably find my slightly short legged wide arsed physique unpleasant to them too and good luck to them too, Im not going to be in slightest bit offended. 

You might also want to recalibrate your argument.  Whilst the girl may not be pumping herself stupid for the appeasement of the opposite gender (or same, we're a broad church here) she is pumping herself for the very purpose of showing her body to her competitors, to appease the body building judges/fraternity and for public consumption, not just for herself. If it was the latter, she wouldnt be taking off her clothes and plastering her image all over the web. 

Im sure she also very happy about your virtue signalling. Very galant of you.

You didnt answer my question though..

Ah virtue signalling. The war cry of the white middle class male when he’s been pulled up on voice his dickish opinion.

It’s interesting that all those that have commented negatively on her appearance look like Gollum’s ballsack in their profile pictures. 

I don't understand how/why you can feel so certain of that?  I get that you have a strong opinion, but lots of posters on here do. The point at which outsiders or people who don't know her, who don't work in mental health (you've not posted to the affect that you do) decide that there's something not mentally healthy about somebody such as her, can seem like a very subjective one. The function might be to earn money in competitions?

youtube.com/watch?v=WtQ4m3WGjoI&

Edit: For the confused, this is the person being spoken about.

My other half is a psychiatrist (who seems to spend most of her free time discussing her work with me - generally, rather than breaking any client confidentiality of course). It's amazing how it gives you a new view on people.

Ah, fair enough. I'll put that in my pipe and smoke it then. 

Oh come on. Firstly, how do you know Im white and middle class and of what relevance is that?  Secondly, why do you take it upon yourself to be the defender of someone's feelings you dont know from someone else's opinion, who you also dont know about a subjective subject, by calling them a dick?  Does that make me a dick or you a dick? 

The answer to my question you are still evading...

Have a hypocritical thumbs down from me sweetie,  you really hurt our feelings

Not sure I’d say it’s neurotic, maybe obsessive. 

There’s a fine line between obsession, addiction and dedication. We see it all the time when climbers or runners get injured and have no other outlet.  

Therein lies the problem - should she be seen as an aspirational role model?
Is it really a good idea to say that this a good example of a healthy human body when she's undoubtedly pumping it full of steroids and starving/dehydrating it for competitions, etc. ? 
It's also a little bit ironic, that there's currently much criticism of the clothing industry using 'body perfect' females as it allegedly puts young females under great pressure to aspire to having similar bodies.  As an aside, I half suspect, that some of the people in this thread condoning the former are also the biggest critics of the latter...

As for the female herself.  Her body, her choice.

 

Heheh.  Gone are the polished images in climber mags.  Replaced with mental images of climbers boozing until the cows come home, subsisting on crappy freeze-dries, revelling in hypoxic euphoria as their fingers and toes turn black....

I'd still put her a long way from the individuals who decide on plastic surgery to resemble sex-/barbie-/ken-dolls.  Undoubtedly some serious psychological issues going on in those cases.

This one is positively benign in comparison.  Also, steroids don't apparently make you bigger themselves.  They just allow you to exercise to realms otherwise not possible.  Demented possibly, but pretty impressive in what they can achieve - its certainly hard work and, in these people's cases, its also their livelihood and possibly quite an addictive experience.

You mean... what relevance does a superficial observation have on the worth of someone...? Hmmm

your profile picture helped. Also, climbing being dominated by that demographic helped.

Im not defending her per se, I don’t know her. I’m interacting with something you posted on a public forum. That’s how these places work. 

Ive responded to your question twice. What about my answer of ‘it doesn’t matter’ do you not understand.

Why do you think she wants to be seen as an aspiration? Maybe she did this for her own reasons and realised there was a market for what she had and took advantage to make some money. 

No difference from porn stars. They aren’t trying to be role models for young women. They are taking advantage of wankers to make money

Given the degree to which her polar opposite at the obese end of the spectrum is not only visible but seemingly celebrated these days, I think the body-builder aesthetic should possibly be promoted more than ever.  

Her body is the result of seriously hard work.  Not being sedentary.  I don't think she looks particularly healthy given she seems to have pushed everything up to 11, and is possibly carrying more testosterone than I had as a teenager.  But she's only a few weeks of good meals and time in front of the TV from looking far more normal.

Maybe where she isn't so admirable is that a lot of girls appear to have a mistaken belief that if they start going to the gym, lifting a few 5kg weights 30 times every day or two, they will suddenly look like her.  Or maybe that's just an excuse.  But either way I don't think she would be putting females under any pressure to look like this.  She may just be scaring them away. 

On the dehydrating, no not good.  But MMA fighters and no doubt lots of other weight-specific sports (possibly climbers) do it too.  She's hardly unique.

Bit sad we can't make superficial judgements about her, given that's probably exactly what she goes into this for, surely?  She will stand on a stage and be judged for it - and actively, willingly, chooses to do so.  That's what competition bodybuilding is about.

I don't agree with those giving her such a hard time.  But I don't think it needs to be looked at as some latent misogyny or unhealthy discriminatory views over people's appearance.  She's definitely towards the unhealthy end of the spectrum and understandable that people have an ingrained tendency to judge against such things.

Official judging is one thing. Men assuming that everything a woman does has to be for their gratification is another. 

I'm not sure they are doing that in this case.  Simply saying "not for me".  I wouldn't want to impinge on people's right to state their personal tastes.

Where have I said anything about how she sees herself? I haven't, I said in my last sentence that she can do whatever she wants with her body: "Her body, her choice".
However, what is clear from some posts in this thread, is that other people see her as having a body that is the picture of good health and one to aspire to.  I disagree and would say that the way she achieves that physique is potentially as damaging as eating chips whilst sat on the sofa.
 

I agree and good luck to them.

You really are stretching this. Show me where anyone has said this although thinking about it a little more and given her employment and her desire to appeal to people, I suspect she would be more annoyed if people werent looking at her.

So someone posted a random non news post about a body builder who spends her life making herself look 'good' for the benefit of others - she competes and models, sometimes in her underwear - and when some say that they dont like that type of physique you get bent out of shape. Not only do you insult them, you also manage to introduce class and race,  bizarrely.  

And no, you didnt answer my question, you avoided it.

So, in case you missed it, and be honest, do you like that kind of physique on a woman. Or put another way, if you are/were a heterosexual male would you like your partner to look like that.

Me, personally, no I wouldn't.

That wasn’t the question though. There wasn’t a question at all. Why did those people jump to the conclusion that they should have an opinion about how attractive she is? Because they assume that’s what a woman’s worth is. Especially so if she’s showing some skin (regardless of the fact she’s showing that skin because the muscles she works very hard for are under it). 

She’s making herself look the way she wants/ is necessary for the competition or social group she involves herself. You are assuming that she has to be doing it to look ‘good’.

She’d have to share her protein shakes and promise not to cuddle me too hard but no reason why we couldn’t be in a relationship. From a photo I hve no idea what she’s like though. 

Edit- the post I was replying to specifically mentioned making superficial judgements. So have a look there. 

Low fat sausages.

I find the whole gym concept to achieve a pretty body completely weird, all sexes. Narcissism.

Isn't it likely to be both?

Genuinely surprised at some of the responses on here. 

I would have thought climbers were generally pretty open-minded and accepting of individuals and goals that differ from the norm. 

This lass has worked incredibly hard to get where she is. The outcome is no worse or better than climbing any given hard grade. The health argument (mental and physical) is deeply hypocritical given that we as climbers dice with death on a regular basis, often putting our bodies through many levels of hell to do so.

And frankly many of the negative replies have a disturbing element of misogynism too. Just saying what I see!

You'll notice I said I wasnt attracted to muscular men too. 

No you just spent several posts reaffirming you are indeed a Neanderthal asshat.

For aspirational body types the polar opposite is perhaps the super skinny supermodel:
How do I get super skinny? Don't eat, but if you do, put your fingers down your throat after you've eaten.
How do I get super ripped? Take steroids, train like a bastard and starve/dehydrate yourself if you're doing a comp or taking a selfie.

I personally don't think either are something that should be considered aspirational .

How exactly? For having a preference? Seems like some folks here are having a bad day and fancy having an argument for the sake of it.

Im outta here.

Because she is showing off her body and asking to be judged. 

I’m sorry, normally I’d agree with you, but under these circumstances she is deliberately asking to be judged on her body. What her underlying reasons are for wanting to be judged are not clear, but she is doing it to be judged.  

I too cant see the problem with not liking something, there is no assumption in that statement. I don't like that look, i can appreciate the effort involved but its not for me, in the same way mushrooms aren't.

And yes, i may resemble Gollums ballsack, thats fine also.

Some climbers may do that. 

A lot of climbers (quite possibly the majority of them) meet up with mates for a nice day out, a good view, a bit of a challenge and couple of pints in the pub.

Sure, people have different objectives with their hobbies, but there are some who lose sight of the bigger picture and become obsessed. That’s not healthy. It’s also not healthy that forums and Facebook groups exist that become echo chambers and normalise that kind of behaviour. 

Jesus Christ, this huge, thatched head with its baseball cap and ponytail is now considered sane? 

Valentina Mishina is feeling better and is now prepared to step back into society and start tossing her boobs about. 

Look at her! Look at Valentina Mishina. Her left buttock must weigh fifty pounds on its own! 

... Imagine the size of her balls... Imagine getting into a fight with the f*cker! 

Yes. But easy bimbles can and do go wrong with tragic results. We know it happens. So yes, we really do dice with death, it's a conscious choice to increase physical risk in return for a perceived reward. For most people it's healthy overall, but there's no denying the risk.

Yes. But you as a complete outsider to the community, have absolutely no insight into this particular competitor's motivations and mindset. You and the others who've made judgmental comments are in no position to be the arbiters of what is healthy for anyone, in regard to their hobbies. Yes, taking anabolic steroids without a clinical justification is pretty stupid from a health point of view. But so is throwing yourself up a wall with your life in the hands of a pal who may or may not be paying attention. I wonder what the stats would say about relative risk? Certainly the physical and mental health benefits of lifting are tangible and well-researched. 

In one sense you're spot on, the people indulging in the more extreme behaviours are certainly putting themselves at more risk. For example see the short careers of many famous solo climbers. 

I know I'd far prefer that young women I care about be exposed to the lifting community, than the general 'banter' of normal society, where girls are judged exceptionally harshly. In general the serious lifting community is accepting and body-positive; respect is earned by committing to the training (which really does take years, it's not a quick fix). Aesthetics is not the primary aim for most lifters I know, although it's fun to pop poses. More people are motivated by the sense of progress, and the feeling of being healthy and capable in a true all-round sense. The aesthetics are linked with that of course; they are the visible evidence of the hard work it takes to be strong.

Physical culture seems to be a byword for narcissism in today's world. I'm inclined to view that as a passive/aggressive response toward people who actually bother themselves to make an effort. 

Can't believe you actually came out with that 'my other half is a psychiatrist' f*ck me that is a new definition of internet expert, hahahaha!! 

What would be your recommendation for Rx acute psychosis in a middle-aged female undergoing alcohol withdrawal... would you like to fill us in on your comprehensive care plan?

No?

In which case, p*ss off with your 'expertise'

PS no asking the other half now

Have I touched a nerve?

Just calling it as I see it. 

The divisive way such an innocuous thread has gone makes me wonder if Paul Mitchell now works for the KGB...

But rich coming from someone who looked like a condom full of lumpy porridge (Clive James that is, not you).

She’s a bodybuilder, not a lifter. 

Lifting weights, like climbing, is a perfectly normal part of human activity. 

I think you’d be hard pressed to find many normal people who think climbing in general is an activity that isn’t part of normal human behaviour. Kids climb trees, they climb rocks at the seaside. 

The women I know who lift weights do it as part of a strength and conditioning program for their sport. 

What a strange reply.

You've professed yourself to have some kind of increased level of insight based on the fact your psychiatrist wife chats with you about work. Despite having no psychiatric training yourself. Bizarre.

Stranger still, you take this professed 'insight' and use it to justify your idea that what this lady is doing, must be (I quote)

Instead, how about if you don't particularly like someone's look, at least be honest about that and just say 'it's not for me'. Rather than throw mean-spirited shade on someone's mental health status. 

I have to wonder what it says about the mental health of people - generally, not you specifically - that spend time, energy and emotion posting about subjects such as this.

Nice evening outside. Summer's arrived.

T.

We've really got to go back to basics here it seems

Yes

OK

Good for them

Sitting outside with a beer. 

Beats watching TV or reading a book. It’s more interactive. 

Yes. There’s a big difference between a bit of lifting to strengthen and condition, and body building.

Lots of bodybuilders can lift heavy but their flexibility and conditioning are non existent. I’d probably go as far as say most or all.

I agree with people being allowed to have personal preference (obviously!). My point is this; why, when presented with a woman (any woman, but in this case one that isn’t conventional in their aesthetic) is it a mans instinct to comment on her looks straight away?  Specifically asserting whether or not they are sexually attracted to them. 

It implies that they think a woman is there to look pleasing and satisfy them first and foremost. 

Nobody asked whether or not this particular woman’s look was their preferred body type or not, they simply assumed that was the question. It suggest a latent assumption. 

I’m trying to point out that maybe we should assume this lady has worked hard to achieve the body she desired for no other reason than because she wanted to. And not that she was aiming to become attractive to us and failed. 

I don’t buy this ‘but she’s showing some skin so she’s asking for it’ line. Especially when those spouting it cry foul when someone calls them out for their bullshit. If you post online... you’re asking for it. 

Your view of bodybuilding is inaccurate and outdated; that may have been true for most bodybuilders twenty years ago. Most people have moved on and incorporate mass, strength, power, mobility and met-con training according to need and current goals. 

If she did it for her own satisfaction, why is she competing and putting photos of herself online?

I’d be interested to know what her 5k time is. 

We’re going around in circles if you don’t read responses. 

Why do you think she can’t be doing it for her own satisfaction AND be utilising her marketability to make money? 

Musicians complain all the time about having to do press events but they do it anyway so they can do what they want and make money.

And even if her motivations weren’t completely intrinsic, why does that make it ok for men to jump to the conclusion they they have a duty and a right to judge her sexual appeal and deem her efforts lacking because she doesn’t fit their ideal? 

The fact you're even bringing up such standards. Why on earth does it matter? Do you care about any other random person's 5k time? 

Strange how the judgment of this woman has changed from the initial open revulsion at the top of the thread to supposedly more evolved / intellectual appraisal of her physical or mental health. 

The point being made by La benya is excellent - it's not for you to decide. The judgments have a strong whiff of misogyny. Would you be as critical of an obese woman? Probably not openly. How about a 3 time mum with the accompanying stretch marks? In which case, why is it OK to voice disgust or, more insidiously, condemnation of this particular woman's supposed health status? 

She's doing what she wants. Yes she's putting herself up for judging! By the circle who matter to her: people who understand and appreciate that particular type of physical culture. It's not for everyone, no. But it's ok to just be honest about that and say 'I don't get it'.

Many people say similar things about climbing - from afar, climbers look pretty deranged too

So she’s marketing her body by showing it off but doesn’t want anyone to notice her body?

How exactly does that work?

You are seriously wide of the mark here. 

No people shouldn’t be commenting on the appearance of random women, but this woman is actively seeking attention.

You stated that she still had flexibility and conditioning. A 5k is a pretty good indicator and test of conditioning. 

Looking at her I very much doubt she has the ability.

I recently walked past a theatre that had a bodybuilding show on. The bodybuilders were all outside. Painted brown and looking haunted. Didn’t see any smiling faces or groups of laughing people chatting. 

Oh god. Please just read previous replies.

I have done. You don’t appear to understand why people are commenting on her appearance. You keep asking why it’s ok. I’ve told you several times why, in this circumstance, it is. 

I walked past a church the other day and all the crhristians were outside, sour faced and eyes down. They must be deeply unhappy people. 

It might have something to do with the funeral that just finished. You know, certain events can make people act different to their ‘usual’... like sad funerals or pressured competitions 

What you're basically saying is that people should find her body aspirational regardless of the way she achieved it.
Didn't something similar happen in cycling a few years back?  People saw the likes of Armstrong as being almost god like, until it was discovered that he was drugged up to the eyeballs.  Hero to Zero in less time than it took to put a needle in...
As far as I'm concerned, a body builder type of body is as dubious a role model as the super skinny supermodel much berated in the press of late. 
If we really want to give aspirational role models to those that need it, then shouldn't we be looking at ones that are 'clean' and have bodies that are feasibly achievable?  From the climbing world, we could have Shauna Coxsey and perhaps even Sierra Blair Coyle. 
 

Look up Sarah Ramadan. Not sure how comfortable I am with that one. Replacing one form of compulsive behaviour with another ? 

That just reinforces my belief that it’s not normal behaviour.

Even at the funeral the people would have been talking.

Every completion I’ve been to regardless of the sport, you will see nervous excited people milling about chatting. These were single people sitting alone not talking to each other. There were exceptions but in the main they seemed to be single young men. 

Well then, all bodybuilders must be mentally unsound then... based on your one fleeting observation. 

"Perfume.....PONCE!"

I don't care for the look one way or the other, so didn't comment. Aesthetically it's not for me, if someone wants to obtain it it's up to them.

Neither do I think someone is mentally unhealthy is an 'insult' (or whatever the ridiculous phrase 'throwing shade' means.). I do think it is relevant to the thread, discussing female body builders.

I said nothing of the kind  In fact I said the opposite - 'it's not for everyone'

Nope. 

There is very little equivalency here. For a start, most people know that those competing at the elite untested levels of bodybuilding, are pinning. My own point of view is that this is nuts. Anabolic steroids present very real health and psychosocial risks. But it's a fact of that kind of competition. Natural, drug-tested comps exist, and to me these competitors look much, much better. 

Maybe. But plenty of people who never use PEDs and wouldn't dream of it are deeply into the culture, and happy to accrue what gains are possible for them naturally. They end up looking pretty good IMO. 

Yes. But I never said we should regard her as aspirational. I said it's her damn business.

The kindest, most open-minded thing to do if you don't like her appearance is go 'whatever'. Just as you would with anyone?? It's her choice, and if she's not continuously pinning, she's certainly in much, much better health than the emaciated waifs society does hold up as aspirational. Not to mention the vast number of obese or skinny-fat people our society produces! 

Many people in the lifting community have thoroughly absorbed the lifestyle, and understand the long-term nature of the hard work and sacrifice required to become as good as you can (whether natural or enhanced). As such many lifters are committed to lifelong training and development. This is certainly a healthy aspiration. 

Ok. So why comment? The only explanation is that you felt yourself entitled to make a derogatory public judgment.

The crap you came out with is undeniably negative and critical. It's body-shaming, regardless how you want to try and dress it up.

Oh yeah, I forgot you're an expert in mental health though  

Compared to some women body builders she isn't remotely big. I admire her dedication. Getting fit and staying fit can be addictive,but there are far worse addictions.

This is missing the point. I assume most men put off by her physique would also be put off by a male competition bodybuilder: Looks unnatural, can only be achieved using drugs despite all the gym work, and, for me almost worst of all, is completely useless: When still competing in Judo I would look at my opponents at weigh in, and immediately dismiss any "ripped" bodybuilder. Forget about them, actual strength looks different!

As for attractiveness (speaking as a hetero male), I find the artificial physique of a female body builder as off putting as large silicon breasts or pumped up lips, some kind of cartoon ideal of beauty or sexual traits exaggerated to the point where they become bizarre and ridiculous (my subjective aesthetic judgement).

CB

In reply to FactorXXX:

I also find it telling that you've named two female climbers who are also classically attractive. There are plenty of women climbing significantly harder than SBC (and just as hard as Shauna) you could have named; the fact you converged on women with conventional good looks says a lot about what you think women should aspire to. 

The fact that you commented again on how sexually attractive she is and then commented on another subset of women without being asked suggests you’ve missed the point completely. 

Do you comment like this on ‘normal’ people who just happen to be ‘ugly’ to you? Regardless of these people’s motives, you shouldn’t assume that why’ve done it for your benefit and are therefore asking for you to let them know that they’ve failed to be attractive to you. 

And yet you feel it's OK to comment on FLOTUS.

Since this is an open forum, shouldn't we be allowed to comment on what we feel like?

Of course it's up to her what she does, but she could do that in private if she wanted to. Since she's chosen to expose and present herself to the public, she'd be pretty dumb NOT to expect people to comment.

It's like you're asking people not to react to Katie Hopkins, because she's a woman.

Woman or bloke, we're all allowed an opinion, and if she's there saying "look at me" then I'm very comfortable voicing my opinion here.

Edit and "Personally I think it's a massive need for attention, no more than that. The contrarian stance, failure to engage meaningfully with more or less anything, and rampant posting habits sum it up."

Is fine

What? Was I making comments on Melania's appearance? Um, no.

Yes. One doesn't have to be a c**t about it though. It's absolutely alright to say 'lifestyle and / or results don't appeal to me' and leave it there. 

What's not OK is making casual, misogynistic insults with the inherent assumption that she is doing what she does to be judged by you, or any random member of the public. The vast majority of people are significantly detrained, so there's absolutely no indication she gives a toss about the opinions of the public at large. Bodybuilding is a niche interest. She didn't post the video on here herself!

Yes. But the impact of this discussion isn't really about her, it's about the fact that many self-entitled blokes (who are probably also significantly detrained) feel the need to shout her down. Is there a possibility they feel a bit threatened by a woman who's visibly strong? 

No. Most people are well able to understand that Katie Hopkins' opinions are the source of her controversy. Not her appearance. Or her gender.

See above.

This is the crux of it for me. 

F*ck me you're a weird one. Responding to your edit 10:27. 

OK pal, enjoy your stalking. 

No, I believe you are missing the point. If a person actively modifies their outward appearance it will necessary affect their attractiveness for others, specifically including heterosexual members of the opposite sex. This is true whether this modification is achieved by body building, tattoos, piercings, breast implants, ritual scarring, you name it. 

If such a "modified" person also seeks publicity, as a body building competitor, model, actor, etc., and is subseqently mentioned in a public discussion it is IMO fair game to make an aesthetic comment about their looks.

The body shaming accusation does not stick, nor does the sexism: As I said above, I find male body builders just as ridiculous, but the question of sexual attraction simply does not arise. 

This does not imply that I would expect these people to conform to my tastes, within very generous limits everyone should be able to look like they want (the exceptions I think of would include e.g. massive self mutilations, like cutting off ones hands or eyes, which would merit psychiatric treatment)

I agree with you that "body shaming" of people not actively presenting actively modified physiques is not acceptable, and very often sexist in nature.

CB

Surely that depends on you definition of a cnut.

We’re looping again here. 

Again, you have immediately jumped to sexual attractiveness as the primary driver. Until you assess why that is, we can’t progress this conversation. 

Not everything that a woman does is for your gratification, regardless of how you see the intention or result.

Just pointing out the contradictions in your arguments.

You seem to be saying that if people are "significantly detrained" (is this something to do with Beeching? I believe detraining started with him), then they have no right to comment.

At what level of protraining is it OK for people to comment?

Your argument about her not posting her video her can be countered that she''s unlikely to read the comments here either!

You've made this into something it's (mostly) not, i.e. about her as a woman. It's about what she's done to herself, and if you look at the comments they'd be the same if she was a bloke.

In the same way Pete Burns f*cked his own face up, she's messed her body up, for some people here.

She can of course do WTF she likes, what she can't do is expect everyone to like what she does, and neither can you.

Very true, unfortunately. 

Although, life would be boring if everyone agreed on everything I guess. 

Yes of course it's ok to make comments on this persons aesthetics. As competitors, bodybuilders are judged on such, so that's absolutely legit. They choose to put themselves in front of an audience and a photographer's lens. It's not really about being judged by the public at large, but hey it's all in the public domain so naturally it goes with the territory.

Again though, what's not ok is the outright revulsion, or the snide and insidious comments about her mental health.

A reasonable response might be something be along these lines:

When you say that most men would be similarly put off by a male bodybuilder, I strongly suspect the reactions from most guys would vary from admiration through grudging respect to, at worst, a dismissive comment like 'looks daft'. You definitely wouldn't get people screaming about their eyes... 

OK so you recognise that such body shaming practices are widespread. Despite your own clear-eyed and reasonable assessment, you must acknowledge that the majority of comments here are by blokes, reacting to images of a woman they find unattractive. 

I think we are not looping, but a re talking at cross purposes. I largely agree with you, in that I have no idea and do not care why the body builder in question modified her body the way she did. I very much assume it is not for my or other men's gratification (and why should it?), but maybe simply because she likes these looks. Who am I to second guess her motivations?

That does not change the fact that her chosen body modification (like any others from my list) will affect how I or anyone else will perceive her attractiveness. I am sure there are men who react in completely the opposite way from me. Thus, this says nothing about her, but about my tastes. 

Also, I wonder why you choose to ignore my comment that I find the this specific type of body modification aesthetically displeasing in both men and women? The only difference is that I am not attracted by men: Similar artificial muscle buildup in a male body builder therefore cannot, by definition, affect sexual attractiveness towards me. Does this not fit in your narrative?

Actually it is almost funny, because I think of myself as not very sexist at all! Not that my wife and daughters would let me get away with it if I were!

CB

Yes, you would. 

E.g. http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/jay-cutlers-muscles-are-a-freak-of-natu...

Euuurgghh!  My eyes!

I agree, but I do not think I did that gave such a comment. If I inadvertently did I apologize.

My comments would be exactly the same, minus the sexual component. I fact, as I said above I have pitted my strength against male body building types both in the gym and on the mat, so in addition I would say that their impressive muscles are largely useless.

Yes I agree that body shaming is widespread and unacceptable, but I do not believe that this accusation can apply to comments about a competition body builder or anyone else (e.g. a half silicon model) who make a living by publicly displaying their artificial looks.

CB

When presented with a bulked up male equivalent would your first comment be- ‘Na, wouldn’t touch that with yours mate. He’s ruined his body, I don’t think he’s fit at all’. 

If not, then there’s a reason as to why you (others) comment like that when it’s a woman. That being that you assume and physical change has to be for a males benefit. 

Some peoples comments were along neutral lines of ‘why would she put so much time into that’ or ‘what about the damage she is doing to herself’. They could be referencing males or females. But those like ‘ my eyes!!!!’ I really struggle to believe that would be their first reaction to a man. 

Because you’re not attracted to men, your cock doesn’t dictate your reaction whereas because it’s a woman you’ve made the assumption 

*you being the royal you. 

That will be half photoshop, but nevertheless...

Hand me the mind bleach!

Pretty much this, while in contrast I would admire / be jealous of the physique of actual athletes.

That does not follow at all.

You assume wrong. Maybe not "my eyes!!!", but ridicule, definitely!

No, this is comment is intended much more neutrally: Since I am a heterosexual male, women are able to change their sexual attractiveness (for me!), either on purpose or as a side effect of something done for other reasons, while men intrinsically cannot do this. That is all.

CB

I named Coxsey because she's probably the most publicly known climber in the UK at the moment (male and female).  I named SBC because she shows a similar amount of 'flesh' as the person in the OP and has been the topic of many discussions on UKC centred around that very fact i.e. being accused of sexualisation.  Point to note: I 'defended' SBC in those discussions on the basis of "Her body, her choice", etc.  
What I was trying to highlight, was what body type is a better example of an aspirational role model. I would say Coxsey and SBC in that they look healthier and something achievable.
Others seem to think that just because Mishina trains/exercises, then that makes her automatically an aspirational role model.  I disagree, because the training/exercise regime required to achieve that body is possibly as damaging as trying to be super skinny.
As for what selecting Coxsey and SBC says about me, then maybe you should be looking at yourself in that regard.  After all, it's you that have identified them as having "conventional good looks' not me.

If I was gay then why not?

Not necessarily, simply because I don't find it attractive, doesn't mean I think the person doing it, is doing it to make themselves more attractive, so has failed in their pursuit. I can simply find something not attractive

Again it's the same as above, it might not be attractive to the person, "attractive" might be a nicer way of saying "repulsive" or "that's fucking horrible" which would more easily fit with your gender balance as this could more easily fit with both sexes.

Again attractiveness, isn't what you're making it out to be. I understand your argument, but attractiveness doesn't have to have any sexual connotations. I can find butterflies attractive and beautiful, doesn't mean I want to f*ck them.

I’d hope you don’t try and f*ck butterflies. Imagine the hurricanes that would cause. 

I get what you’re saying but disagree with the benign meaning of attractiveness in this case. 

I don't think so, your commentary seems pretty reasonable and well thought out to me at least.

Hahaha ok, fair one While a lot of those pics are obviously photoshopped, as I said I don't personally admire the look of the elite untested competitors. In fact there's an emerging conversation right now in the BB community about what the male physical 'ideal' should be for pro bodybuilders; many are starting to agree that the overt and massive use of AS and other PEDs is well out of hand. I respect the ethic of anyone seriously committed to more or less anything, but the look ain't for me.

But I do think that statements of disgust from (presumably) straight males about a female's appearance, are very different from statements about men. Maybe I'm just being an SJW snowflake.

There’s no snide insidious remarks about her mental health. There have been remarks that taking any activity to a compulsive obsessive level is not healthy or normal. 

I assume to get to that level requires that particular mindset. 

You protest too much. 

As several posters have pointed out, it is about her. I think you’ve tried to derail the discussion for your own agenda. 

I think you have a serious issue about this, having seen you engagement with me and the rest of your postings on here. Your responses are very over the top, angry almost. You need to chill out a bit.

And yeah, entirely separately from any of my previous comments, if you put yourself in the public eye for your aesthetics then you can expect comments, positive and negative (body shaming as you would have it.) 

You're a bit old to be a snowflake aren't you?!

I'm still feeling guilty over Katrina (the hurricane - not a woman!)

I think things when typed can be difficult to interpret the way the poster often meant them to be interpreted, although that might be me thinking the best of people (mostly).

How about if they'd used the word "beautiful" rather then attractive? would this have made a difference?

While I understand, and agree, with the whole objectification argument, like it or not that's what we do, at least in our heads (OK probably some don't) but we make assumptions every day of our lives, where it's crossing the road or whether it's assessing whether the woman / bloke you just met is flirting with you or just being friendly, it how we're made.

Yup, it’s human nature. But one of the joys of being a human is we can strive to be more than our base instincts. That includes empathy and not running around taking bits out of wilderbeast. 

I think you are being a little harsh on people wanting to remark on her physical appearance.

She, like many of her ilk, plaster their pictures all over Instagram, YouTube, Facebook.  This is their trade.  If your currency is to parade yourself, to attract attention, and to make advert/placement/hit revenue from this then you'd have to accept that people are going to have varying opinions on what is being presented quite starkly in front of them.

Those opinions and immediate reactions on that appearance will range from "I'd like to f*ck that" to "I would never want to be that", and everything in between.

A few people here, possibly coming from different sides of the spectrum, seem keen to inhibit the range of viewpoints people are allowed to have, and seemingly their freedom to voice it.  It may be worth considering that we're all wired differently and being presented with an opinion on a bikini-clad women of debatable attraction will likely trigger others to comment.  It's not the end of the world or the sign of some societal ill.  You, like her, can ignore it,

That’s very close to ‘she’s asking for it’... which I’m pretty sure she isn’t 

You only have to look at Facebook comments between women to see how bad things are, even "right on" feminists (and I mean that without insult) will put "you look beautiful" or "stunning" when commenting on pictures of their friends.

It's fascinating how naturally this comes to you, your deep insight into people's desires motivations and mental states, just from no-to-minimal interaction over the internet

If you think I've been a bit harsh with you, let me explain. By following comments in relation to a woman's appearance such as 

with things like

and the emphatic but vague

without bothering to elucidate your position, you're contributing to the kind of overall negativity surrounding female strength that Timmd mentioned affecting a young girl he knew?

Who's being a snowflake here

Asking for what?  Purely adoration? Criticism? Comment?  No comment?  What are you implying?

I'm not in her mind.  But I do understand how social media income works.  My assumption is she's asking for publicity, clicks and therefore ad/hit revenue.  She is doing so by using her body-building body and putting it on display.  No different from any other social-media personality.  It's a business.

I have no judgement on that.  Some of the public personalities I most value earn their income from social media and self promotion.  She can earn her income however she sees fit.  I'd probably click on it.

But if you are using bikini shots to present yourself to the general public, to people outside of your circle of friends and therefore to folks who might not find it aesthetically or idealistically pleasing, then you will likely run in to criticism - just like I imagine people such as Jordan Peterson probably irk you when they put their personal social viewpoint on display.

The criticisms of her, which I don't really share, are valid; she's possibly unhealthy, she's probably cheating with steroids, she's possibly setting a bad example, she's probably not sexy, probably elicits an immediate gut reaction of repulsion or lack of attraction to many people - especially men.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Just because I feel differently about those things doesn't mean those criticisms deserve to be censored...or mean these judgements are some way toxic or damaging....as you seem to be implying.  We value different aesthetic traits.  

Basically, I think you are reading way too much in the comments about her.  You seem to have an axe to grind.  A willingness to police what people can say.

What's that picture got to do with female strength?

To be honest it looks very similar to picture of anorexia, where the sufferer sees something very different to the person themselves.

Looking at the picture it's not that difficult to propose she might be exercising / training to the exclusion of many other "normal" activities, which of course is up to her, but it's not normal.

You seem to be saying above that it was because they we detrained, they weren't allowed to comment, without explaining what level of pro-training or lack of detraining, is sufficient to enable then to comment.

Or are you suggesting only positive comments are acceptable?

Painting yourself brown and posing in skimpy pants is not a sport and doesn't really have much to do with strength,  female or otherwise though some comes as a secondary result.

This is an example of "female strength" youtube.com/watch?v=DdhVPV6rxAo& and there is absolutely no non-acceptance of it within the sporting community.

While I'd not go as far as to say "all bodybuilders have MH issues" I can state that, with a few exceptions, near all the bodybuilders I have met have had huge character/self image/ confidence issues.  They often over compensate by being utter cockwombles in terms of posturing and general good manners.

I have the good fortune to be a member of a gym where there are no bodybuilders I've spent a good deal of time in weightrooms in the other kind of places. It's an unbelievably cool atmosphere for all and often there will be a local pensioner or recovering cancer patient (there's a charitable side to the gym)being taught mobility work next to, both female and male, pro/semi pro and retired athletes.  Around a third of the coaches are female.  The weighlifting/training classes have more women than men, of all ages, attending.

Above someone, maybe you, made the point "I doubt a man would[get the same reaction]" It's totally the same thing to me. If I have any prejudiced gender based opinion on the matter it is only that I can guess the sequence of selfie poses they will take while blocking someone legitimately using a mirror. And if you think the non bodybuilding community is harshing on some form of girl power here... can you please tell what the feck that anterior pelvic tilt the women have cultivated in the past decade or so is about, and if it looks empowering in any way?

Is it that hard to understand, really? I'm suggesting the outspoken negativity is unnecessary.

But people aren't listening, as whenever I and a few others repeat that, the statement ignored or dismissed.

As shown by John Arran's post right at the top of the thread, it's perfectly possible to have a negative or sceptical opinion of someone's appearance, contribute meaningfully to the discussion, while not making harsh or judgmental comments. 

Society seems increasingly nasty these last few years. I'm just dismayed by the condemnation on a climbing forum (which again, I'd expect to be more open-minded), of someone who looks a bit different to the norm, and has obviously worked hard in pursuit of her goals.

But you seem to have jumped in with both feet and accused people of all sorts.

Saying the picture isn't very attractive, in my view isn't outspoken negativity, it's expressing an opinion, in the same way you have on UKC (Big Gers thread).

We're all old enough and strong enough to take some criticism, surely? Even to be "outraged" if you like, but you seem to be saying people shouldn't express their opinions, because it doesn't suit your thoughts.

She's hardly likely to find out what's been posted here.

I tend to think Caster Semenya would be more of a strong female figure than this woman, but that's a matter of opinion.

Edit: whether this was a bloke or a woman I can't see anything positive about it. http://fitnessfit.info/kilroy123arrvalentina-mishina/

You do know that you’re trying far too hard to be offended on behalf of someone else here. 

I know it is tricky territory, but I would like to pick up on your criticism of posts linking extreme body building and mental health issues.

Without referring to any individual, it is probably safe to conclude that statistically any group that commits to body modification, be it by steroid supported training, implants, tattoos, self induced starvation, etc. is likely to have been less happy with their own body image before modification than a control group not feeling the same need.

From that list, anorexia is most clearly linked with mental health issues, as the distorted body image that underlies this disease is obviously pathologic and damaging. 

It is thus IMO fair to hypothesize that an urgent psychological need to not only be physically fit, but to acquire unnatural levels of musculature, may similarly indicate a distorted body image.
Whether this is statistically also linked with mental illness is hard to say. Clearly, not every gym rat trying to bulk up a bit even with the help of some steroid courses should be considered mentally ill.

However, it is worth discussing whether there is some cutoff point where the attempts at body modification by training and drug use become so unhealthy that they should be considered pathological, in a way anorexia in reverse.

One problem with this is that the heavy anabolic steroid use involved in achieving an extreme physique like the one triggering this thread has its own risk of damaging you mentally, so it is hard to distinguish cause and effect (as I was unfortunate to witness in a distant relative roughly my age who lost his house, family, and eventually freedom due to being sectioned following years of steroid abuse in a body building gym).

CB

What is it you're pretty sure she's not asking for and why?

Great post. 

If there's a discussion to be had about the mental health of people involved in extreme levels of training, it's this. The key difference is that of a clearly-articulated and sympathetic viewpoint.

Many people have deep seated body confidence issues. Men and women alike, although the prevalence of such across the sexes is skewed towards women (and worryingly, increasingly younger girls). Such dysmorphias in females more usually manifest in eating disorders. There are numerous people who've used training in response to such issues. For many, it’s provided a framework and context for making themselves healthy in body and mind. Surprising really that climbers seem to find it hard to relate to the sense of empowerment that can be obtained by being physically competent and powerful.

While some do take it to an extreme (the situation with your relative sounds dreadful and indicates how crippling such dysmorphias can be for men and women),  physical development for most participants is an overwhelmingly healthy activity. Just like climbing.

Nice as it might be for some to imagine they’re all monstrous, most competitive bodybuilders are just ordinary people, with a hobby that’s different to most.

The only thing we can say about this competitor with any degree of certainty is that at some point she’s probably used steroids. Yes that’s a bit stupid. But again, so is climbing. The risk in each activity is high, and the rewards for most are only personal. (Like pro climbers, there are very few true full-time BB pros.)

Aside from that, we can’t judge whether this person is happy or engaged in healthy behaviours. We simply can’t, because we don’t know a thing about her. She may be living a healthy balanced life most of the time, and only cutting for the occasional comp?

Let’s assume this particular competitor actually does have a mental health issue around this. A simple talisman for judgment of mental health is something along the lines of – ‘is it having negative effects on other, important areas of your life’; ‘it’ being any potentially harmful behaviour, substance or situation. Quite definitively we can't answer that.

A more formal judgment for treatment of mental health issues could use the Australian Mental Health Triage Scale. In the absence of florid delusion / suicidal thoughts / psychotic symptoms / very severe anxiety or worse, that *could* place this person (or of course anyone else) at a triage category of 4 – Less Urgent. Rating the same kind of clinical urgency as common-or-garden depression / anxiety / obsessive compulsive disorder. In other words, just like most people.

It’s a pretty short sentence. Which bit don’t you understand? Maybe read the post I was replying to? 

Eh? towards what?

Regardless of that, people should be able to dislike what they want.  the link to the pictures I posted look fucking horrible, man, woman or dog, they'd still be horrible looking in my view and simply because I'm detrained, or a bloke, or that she's not a climber, or because I'm a climber I should understand (I don't), or any other myriad of reasons, I simply don't like it. And since she isn't here and she isn't likely to be, I don't think me saying so impacts on anyone.

I'm not keen on body piercings, tattoos, lip fillers, false tits, peck implants, or botox, but that's just me, everyone else is free to make their own decisions and do what they like.

But we're on a forum, where people often express their opinions, we don't all have to like what's posted, but I wouldn't want to stop people posting either.

I have and I've also read Pan's question to your reply which is the same as mine and which you're not answering.

If that's too difficult a question for you then why don't you tell us what you think of the young lady? 

This is the baffling bit about people saying that her body type is somehow aspirational - they know she's taken steroids to achieve it, but still think it's a worthy example to demonstrate how wonderful the human body can be with hard training and dedication, etc.  Weird, especially when you consider the criticism that Froome has received recently for bending/breaking some rules that no one really understands.
As for the climbing analogy, that's just a straw man. As we all know, climbing can be as safe or dangerous as you want to make it.  You could train like a demon and never do anything else but Top Roping, Bouldering or relatively safe Sport Climbing, etc.  Whereas, with the body builder, it's the actual training and general life style that is doing the harm.

neither would I. Just suggesting that maybe the oddballs who constitute the climbing community, could  be a bit more sympathetic and dignified when discussing someone who looks a bit different from the norm. You clearly struggle with that 'f*cking horrible' OK that's your view.

But the hypocrisy is obvious - in your view it's absolutely fine to state your opinion publicly, but not to have that opinion criticised? Who's being unreasonable here? I'm not suggesting anybody shouldn't post. I'm suggesting they could retain a level of personal dignity by making an effort not to come off like a vindictive or judgmental cock when discussing another human being.

Which would be fine if you did the same, but you didn't and the person you directed your judgemental post a was definitely going to read it, so it's a bit of a glass house for you.

And you haven't been consistent with your argument, you used a gender bias, the fact that people are "detrained" and therefore not worthy of commenting, but now we're just supposed to be nice.

What? You're dribbling.

I'm dribbling?! Nice one

I'm off to detrain a bit more.

Don't know what the dislikers made of my above comment but for clarity it was merely a reaction to what I took as implicit veneration of narcissism in the OP.

We seem to live in an age when many people have become deeply unhappy in their own skins, an explosion in psychological disorders centred around body dysmorphia and a huge increase in the demand for cosmetic surgery. Images in both social and traditional media are so routinely photoshopped or air brushed as to make the physical reality of our peers barely discernible.

Personally speaking, devoting a massive amount of time, effort and money on personal appearance seems deeply unhealthy when there is an enormous world out there with endless opportunities to improve our own lives and the lives of others. 

.....Or I suppose we could all jump up and down screaming Look at me, Look at me. One of the more depressing stories from this week was that Love Island (home of the ripped physique) had more applicants than Oxbridge.  

I agree, she damn well has worked hard and achieved an almost impossible physique, good for her.

What else can we comment on apart from that, when presented with a such a radical physique, male or female?

You hit the nail on the head, it is instinct and no amount of arguing the pros and cons of such behaviour is ever going to change that and i absolutely deny the "she's asking for it claim" thats not what i had in mind at all. She can display her body anyway she pleases, im not fussed.

I looked at the picture of her and thought wow, impressive but its not for me, not that it should be or shouldn't its just an opinion formed in the same way as you form an opinion on a piece of abstract art or obscure piece of music or anything else you can think of that took a lot of effort to produce.

I struggle to understand the narrative of non-judgmentalism, if someone is walking down the street wearing a giant penis costume im inclined to think what a tool. I saw someone the other day and i could barely see his eyes as his face was so tattooed, impressed by his commitment to the ink but i wouldn't want to look at it everyday.

The latent assumption part of your argument is also a waste of time, people make hundreds of judgements daily, prior to the judgement they aren't constructing an internal dialogue of "they have done this to please me and have failed" it just a passive thought.

Seriously? How depressing!

CB

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/love-island/news/a858828/love-island-2018-appl...

I'm not going to investigate any further as to the truth of this. If I had it irrefutably verified I might end up having to decamp to a small, remote, uninhabited island somewhere.

I dont think its that surprising that more youngsters apply for a chance at a free 8 week holiday that could propel them to 5 minutes of a modicum of fame amongst their peers whilst getting laid with a bunch of vain hotties vs those that have the ability to realistically apply for a difficult to get into elite learning establishment. 

Why? Oxbridge has a very high bar to entry, Love Island doesn't (I'm assuming). All and sundry don't apply to Oxbridge as it is, in theory, only for the best brains in the country. I've never watched Love Island but I'm assuming the entry criteria are a little less stringent?

I'm fairly sure this is already another form of TV that documents the society of the spectacle. Channel 4 will find you.

Oxbridge, providers of first class educations and gateway to fabulous careers, gets 36,000 applicants for 8000 places.

Love Island, provider of dross TV and gateway to a brief career in 'celebrity' appearances, gets 85,000 applicants for what? 20 places?

You don't find the disparity between those figures surprising, let alone disconcerting and disheartening?

Chanel 4 will find me unresponsive, unavailable and crashingly unphotogenic.

Not really. I doubt many people think they are in the top 8000 "cleverest" people in the country, whereas far more might think they have a "shot" at a spot on Love Island, which people might see as more of a lottery than a merit based entry system.

Which is kinda the problem.

"Where straight teeth in your mouth are more important than the words that come out of it"

I did not want to cast doubt on your claim, I just find it shocking!

CB

edit: Given that it does not cost much effort to recycle an application I find the level of oversubscription rather low. We have master courses (admittedly with rather limited student numbers) that are more than tenfold oversubscribed. Given how much of a career benefit an Oxbridge degree can still give you (without even getting into the discussion of whether this is deserved or not), I am surprised that not more students simply try their luck!

As I said before I think physical culture has become a byword for narcissism in today's world. This is unfair to most people who train seriously, although there are always going to be those 'bros' and their female equivalent who have absolutely no interest in looking after themselves, just in vanity. Fair play to them, but whatever.

Most people in the lifting community who train for any serious time - athletes, bodybuilders, powerlifters, strongmen, crossfit nerds etc. just want to improve: feel better, look better, lift / train / compete harder. Yes there are people in that community suffering with mental health issues. 

Not surprising given most of us will at one point or another, suffer with similar. And doing something to ease these things, produce a sense of strength, positivity and even attractiveness, is not wrong. If mental health issues are over-represented in the lifting community, perhaps it's because people find lifting and similar activities help?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/06/well/weight-training-may-help-to-ease-or...

Many climbers I know have remarked over the years how climbing 'keeps them sane'. It might be said in an offhand way. But I do know that many of these people have been through some f*cking dark times, and climbing has been a method of coping. Is it so hard to understand that other people get exactly the same uplift from training? Or are we just going to judge people who want to excel at what they do 'awful!'; 'unbalanced!'; 'mental health issue!'? Such negativity particularly around the latter is bad karma, it's not hard to see that.

All those things are valid objections to the misogynistic, hypocritical and unnecessarily harsh comments made on this thread. I'm not offended on the competitor's part. I'm offended on the part of anyone, but particularly women, reading this shit and once more seeing the widespread negativity surrounding physical self-improvement. 

I just don't think the two are comparable as one's a popularity competition, the other is a top university.

You could even argue that considering the outcomes for the bulk of university applicants these days, that Love Island is a more sensible prospect

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/06/11/whole-generation-has-sold-...

Great post....until you start playing an entirely unnecessary gender card and throwing in a reference to "misogyny".  

There was nothing of the sort. You might as well be accusing everyone here of racism, for all it brings to the argument.

Quite right, there was little in any misogyny involved, most people just weren't keen.

Given your replies so far I’m really interested in your thoughts. I do read much of it as misogynistic: seemed to me that blokes making derogatory comments about a woman’s body (and getting angry about their criticism being challenged) is inherently misogynistic, you think that’s way off target? If so, why? I’m not being argumentative, just trying to understand a differing perspective. 

Do you not think it's possible to dislike a woman's body shape for a reason, (de gustibus,) without showing;

misogyny

noun

hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women, or prejudice against women.

Criticising one woman's contrived and forced body shape, does not, to me, show hatred, dislike, or mistrust, or prejudice, of women in general, just personal taste. (Again, de gustibus non disputandem est.)

As I said above. I do think it’s both possible and absolutely fine to not like any given person’s body shape. 

But I do think it’s possible to voice one’s opinions without being an arse about it. 

That, is what I find tinged with misogyny. The jeers. 

That's not "misogyny" though, that's just jeers. It would only be "misogyny" if they jeered at every woman, no matter what her body shape.

It's like goldy or silvery, but made out of iron.

Well, I tend to sceptical about claims of misogyny to start with and do so here for quite a range of reasons.

For starters, if misogyny is "women hating", and "hate" includes saying anything someone doesn't like (even without intent to hurt) or is offensive, then we're all misogynists.  Women themselves seem to be by far the harshest critics of the sisterhood.

We seem to be on a strong slide of definition creep as of late, where "hate" gets to cover all manner of things and "misogyny" and "racism" are thrown around with such abandon they become meaningless and devalued. 

Also, I think it is incorrect for men to be viewed as wrong, or broken, (as "misogyny" implies) for viewing women's bodies in a way that perhaps women don't understand or agree with.  We seem to be regressing to a situation similar to where homosexuals once were, where biological reactions (or admitting to them) are seen as faulty, dangerous, and in need of some sort of conversion therapy.  That men must think the same as women do.

We are sexual beings.  I'm not going to pretend that a feminine body (be it muscular or not) in tight lycra or a bikini won't frequently have me thinking "hmmm".  That's not negative.  Its nothing short of joy, that something so physically beautiful and unique exists.  A human form that's entirely different from mine in the most fantastic way.  This hardly strikes me as misogyny. Yet, the very fact that I'm making ANY judgement whatsoever on a woman's physical appearance (rather than commenting positively on her brain, or her effort, or her education) is dangerous these days and seemingly grounds for a misogyny label.   

Pretending that a barely clothed woman has no more profound impact on my mind than a woman hiding all usual sexual cues by wearing a burka would be deceiving myself.  So, presented with a woman putting a huge amount of flesh and figure on display, the sexual preference neurons are likely t o start firing in one's brain, and it's understandable we might comments on this - positive or negative.  

For some, the same image of this bodybuilder might elicit thoughts that are negative; impressions of narcissism, steroid abuse, unhealthy body proportions, laughable use of fake-tan, weird life priorities.  Entirely understandable reactions in my opinion.

But regardless of whether the comments are positive or negative, be that about her body or her interests,  they certainly don't strike me as "woman hating".  For one, it's not hating the gender as a whole.  And two, is very unlikely to be "hating" even that woman alone.  Its a dislike of certain physical characteristics that may be equally repulsive on males, or may simply be down to personal preference.  About the closest it could be argued to misogyny is that some characteristics are viewed more positively on a male than a female....but breasts on a woman are far more likely to be viewed positively than moobs on me, so it cuts both ways.  

I fully understand the dislike people have toward the physique of this Russian girl.  I think they are wrong. I like her appearance (at its less extreme).  But then again I'd express equal disgust as they have if this woman was presenting herself identically but morbidly obese instead.  Would that make me a misogynist?  Even though my views on her are clearly not contingent on her gender but on certain physical characteristics that are mutually exclusive of gender? 

Ultimately, since "lived experiences" and that "men should not speak for women" are accepted concepts these days, it seems only fair that this should apply in the other direction too.  That perhaps women should not deny the lived experience and unique viewpoints of men (heavily influenced by our own genetic differences), should not deny males a voice (which might be profoundly different from that of your average woman), and that women should not claim to understand fundamental thought processes (and view them as faulty) that men are making, which appear to be deep evolutionary and biological imprints, when judging female appearance.  It may hurt their feelings (though I expect most men are sensitive enough to avoid making these comments to a person's face, and in fact we seem culturally expected to go to great lengths to flatter women on their appearance).  But then equally hurtful to me may be a woman's, entirely understandable, view that my attractiveness is dramatically lessened by my lacking net worth, my lack of alpha male job prospects and low status.  Neither are hate.

Getting the thread back on track, skip to 1:26 here:

youtube.com/watch?v=zAc5U5HZtws&

Thank you. That's a really interesting viewpoint; I'm not sure I agree, but it's credible and articulate, not mud-slinging. A lot of what you're saying resonates with me, about the biological differences between men and women.

Again however I'm drawn back to the difference between the kind of reasoned response you make here and many of the others. Disgust, attraction or disinterest are all perfectly valid internal responses to any given person's appearance; as you point out we are sexual creatures and this is a natural process.

But this is a public forum. Not a closed group where you chat with your mates, and make 'locker room talk' if you wish (something women and men do equally in my experience). If one wishes to make sneering remarks about anyone's appearance in *public*, it must be understood that such is open to challenge. 

In regard to attraction, there are 'types' for more or less everyone. That's fine. But openly denigrating someone based on their image is wrong. One can express disinterest, or attraction in a variety of ways. But expressing open disgust at someone's appearance is generally a dick move.

Especially if one does resemble Gollum's nut sack

Yum yum

I thought we were all mates here.

Can you quote the replies here which seem to have upset you? It would make it easier for us to judge their merits.

I think we are all aware of that, what makes you think we are not?

Think you need to look into the bleak reality of just what it is a lot of porn 'stars' really are. :-/ It is not women taking advantage of wankers. It is people exploiting people, to take advantage of other people, all in the good name of money and greed.

I think a lot of it boils down to MC not liking what was said, but, I'm pretty sure like most people here and in real life, we talk / type in shorthand and it's left up to the reader to interpret what been said. Easy in real life face to face, more difficult reading text from a screen.

So when people say "horrible", or "yuk", or "FFS!" they might well mean "I appreciate it's her body and it's up to her what she both does with it and to it. But that really isn't something I could comment favourably on". But who's got time for that?

MC took offence at people not liking, or at least not being kind enough not to be negative, about the woman's pictures. They then went on to reason why people weren't allowed to comment, one of them being because we're (I'm using the royal we - sorry to the republicans amongst us) "detrained" we shouldn't be commenting at all.

I think this put people backs up.

The woman puts out her image for everyone to comment on, presumably in the hope of admiration from people. From my point of view if this is your reasoning, then it's reasonable for people to tell you what they really think, it might not be very nice, but if you want to do what you want without people commenting, then don't put pictures all over the internet.

MC latest angle seems to be this is a public forum so we should be civil to each other. Again this is fine, yet they don't follow the same rule for themselves, so it's a bit hypocritical. Further to that, it not very likely she will even get to read the comments on the forum, so do it really affect her? (I realise there are societal issues her, and of course ideally we should all be nice to each other, but I refer you to point 1 above.)

Ha.

You are a silly sausage

I've been making the same point throughout the thread. Your insistence that my perspective is inconsistent suggests only one of two things:

- an odd desire to bait me

- a deep failure of comprehension

Either way, you've successfully made the point that it's useless debating you. Well done. You've shut me up

"And frankly many of the negative replies have a disturbing element of misogynism too. Just saying what I see!"

"But you as a complete outsider to the community, have absolutely no insight into this particular competitor's motivations and mindset."

"where girls are judged exceptionally harshly"

"Can't believe you actually came out with that 'my other half is a psychiatrist' f*ck me that is a new definition of internet expert, hahahaha!! "
"In which case, p*ss off with your 'expertise' " - not very kind.

"it's about the fact that many self-entitled blokes (who are probably also significantly detrained) "

You tried and failed to compare what she does do climbing.

I could continue but your reply above says it all to be honest.

If you want people to be nice then maybe you might start with yourself.

How much are they offering?