UKC

When out with friends on Sunday, in a setting with lots of people milling about outside and alcohol being consumed, an incident happened where some kind of Staffie sized terrier dog (I don't think it was a Staffie) had clamped it's jaws onto one of the folds of skin of a larger kind of spaniel. After what seemed like a long time of people generally milling about and tugging at the terrier, and squeals coming from the spaniel, I went over to where it was happening to see if I could help, and noticed a gap in the people and that nobody seemed to be focused on the mouth. I knelt down and tried to pull it's jaws open with my (gloved) fingers touching it's teeth, at which point, perhaps coincidentally, it started to release it's grip, and the owner of the terrier made a hasty exit while people were still milling around trying to take in what had just happened, and focusing their attention on the spaniel, which fortunately seemed to be okay. I went back five mins later and the guy with the spaniel said it was fine.

 The guy who was with the spaniel, I think he might have been it's friend rather than it's owner from how he talked about it, said he was about to kill the terrier with his penknife if it didn't let go. What are the best ways of dealing with that kind of situation, and actually getting a dog to let go?

It'd be nice to feel slightly better equipped in knowing what to do, if it happens again.

In reply to Timmd:

Kick the attacking dog in the ribs. 

In reply to Timmd:

Don't risk getting yourself injured by trying to open the dog's mouth! A bite from a bull terrier (even through thick gloves) could easily stop you climbing +/- working for weeks (or worse).

If there is (as in this case) access to water / drinks then pour some onto the attacking dog's face / eyes / nose.

Otherwise if grabbing the dog and lifting off by the collar or scruff of the neck isn't possible (and this still risks getting bitten yourself) or doesn't work a kick may be the safest / only option.

In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

Yes, in hindsight I do appreciate the risks to my fingers. I think at the time the squealing was all I had in mind.

In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

https://einhorninsurance.com/california-insurance/dont-get-hurt-breaking-up...

This is quite interesting reading. It mentions some of the things you do. As well as making loud noises, or covering the eyes of the attacker with something, or twisting the collar so it struggles to breath.

In reply to Timmd:

You've replied to a few responses, but ignored mine. Why's that? 

In reply to aln:

I went to the toilet.  

In reply to Timmd:

Ah, OK, you ran away. I was in the situation you described above, I kicked the attacking dog in the ribs

In reply to aln:

Umm, no, I walked away and intended to reply... 

In reply to Timmd:

When a dog is in attack mode walking away isn't an option 

In reply to aln:

I haven't a clue.

In reply to Timmd:

So why start a thread 

In reply to aln:

Why do you think? You can find out by reading it.  Stop being so weird. 

In reply to Timmd:

Here's the thing, I love dogs, I love our human relationship with dogs. But they can be dangerous. They're subservient to us. We need to be in control of them. 

In reply to Timmd:

I don't think that's possible. In my 50's I've realised how weird I've always been and I'm OK with it. 

 

In reply to Timmd:

It might be an urban myth but it is said that dogs release their grip if you shove a finger up the other end. 

I distinctly remember I comedian in the 90’s musing about how this fact was discovered. 

In reply to Timmd:

Jam a stick into their mouths and use it as a lever. The sort of horrible oiks who think an aggressive & dangerous  Staffie is a nice thing to have tend to carry ‘break sticks’ with them for this purpose. 

 

However, when one of the horrible  things (staffie that is, not the odious tracksuited pleb who owned it, watched it attack & ran off with it afterwards) attacked my collie a few years ago, in the absence of a handy stick, the only thing that made it let go was kicking it as hard as physically possible in the gonads, followed by further kicks to the ribs. 

In reply to Timmd:

Before this becomes a staffies bashing thread (Fozzie should note the Staffordshire bull terrier is one of the breeds recommended by the kennel club as being great with kids) I will put in my 2 pence worth. 

Dogs have been bred to have different breed traits in terms of the steps of the hunting pattern they portray. This is why collies tend to nip and let go, terriers grab and shake and bull breeds may grab and hang on. If you are fighting a bigger animal, hanging on when the shouting and wriggling starts will save your life. 

From experience I can tell you that kicking, shouting, pulling the back legs and sticking a finger up the arse are significantly less effective than calmly holding the attacked dog to help it stop wriggling and causing more damage and choking the attacking dog with its collar until it has to let go. I have never had a suitable stick to hand when breaking up a dog fight, although the Dogs Trust have these in their shelters in case of emergencies. 

In reply to Timmd:

I remember reading an article by a dog trainer which suggested that while the often mentioned solutions may work from time to time the only way to break a dogs grip is to kill it (this was in relation to a dog biting a human). There have been instances where repeatedly injuring a dog that's clamped has had no impact and the person writing the article suggested that when a dog is in attack mode and it's jaws are clamped pain doesn't necessarily have any affect on it releasing. There are various products that are legal in this country to deal with agressive dogs but of course you have to buy them and have you on them in the first place.

In reply to ceri:

 

I’m sure that’s why they are so popular with chavvy sorts...

 

In reply to Timmd:

Making a dog relax its jaws when biting a dog! It's difficult to do two things at the same time.

In reply to Timmd:

Very similar situation a couple of years ago, staffie type dog had another dog locked in its jaws and several people trying to pry it off. When I got there I got both hands around its neck and squeezed as hard as I could and it let go almost immediately... If it had got a child I'd have kicked it in the ribs with the intention of breaking them.

In reply to Timmd:

Do you wear a belt?  That’s a possible choking tool.

Given the reactions I’ve had on two occasions from owners when I have used gentle force to get a dog “only being friendly” of me, I wouldn't intervene on a dog biting another dog, only on one biting a human. It’s difficult to defend yourself from the dog’s owner whilst dealing with the dog.

In reply to Timmd:

 

You'd have more luck if you asked him to sprout purple wings and a unicorn horn.

 

In reply to Timmd:

Clap your hand firmly over his nose, usually works, but with the risk of being bitten.

In reply to ablackett:

I can't remember the sketch but that *has* to be something Jasper Carrott would say.

In reply to Timmd:

It's best not to put your fingers into a bitey dog's mouth, the back teeth will crop them off like twigs and the front ones are sharp.

When I've had to open dogs mouths against their will, usually to get something out like a broken stick or something in like medication I've made sure I press the dog's lips in between my fingers and teeth so it's biting itself if it tries to bite me. Gripping the very front teeth is an alternative especially with pointy dogs, where you have a lot of leverage but they are quite sharp. Neither is foolproof. I wouldn't choose either approach with a dog that was being aggressive.

If a dog is seriously attacking a child your most reliable option is to crush it with your dead weight and a hard point like a knee, kicking it about will just cause more tearing of the victim and it'll take several big kicks. I've never had to split up squabbling dogs where they couldn't just be pulled apart by the scruff of the neck and knocking them off their legs, I can imagine a clamped on bull type may well need more work, the choking/suffocating option sounds like the least harmful option if you don't have leverage.

jk

In reply to Timmd:

i intervened once in similar situation. think the staffie was on lead tho (i don't recall being concerned that it would go for me)  grabbed its neck and pressed thumb somewhere soft at back of jaw-which worked..

i did have a water bottle with me so will probably try that next time

In reply to Timmd:

When I was younger our family friend had a staffie.  Absolutely amazing dog and I happily blew in its nose (A big no no with dogs), teased it,  got pulled around by the wrist by same dog and in general as a kid trusted this dog implicitly.  I never once saw it be anything other than brilliant with kids and adults.  He didn't go looking for trouble but if another dog started on him he would never back down and as such his owner used to walk him, on the lead with a horse riding whip in her other hand to deter other dogs with owners who didn't know how to control them properly.  Seemed like a good idea.

Another friend used to walk a English bull terrier and in a spookily similar situation to your own, it attacked my own Springer spaniel puppy.  It had her around the neck.

How did we save my dog.  Well 4 16yr olds lads punched, kicked, choked with collar, poked and hit this dog with everything they had and it still didn't let go.  A stick was put in its mouth to force its jaws open and yes it worked.  The dog collapsed unconceous after it let go.  We were seriously looking at killing it to get it off. 

I don't think there is a right way to deal with it but I have never witnessed how aggressive we had to be to get this dog to release and I wouldn't want to experience it again.  I had nightmares for weeks after

In reply to Timmd:

My grandfather who used to breed bull terriers ( which can lock their jaws) used to get them off by choking them by putting his hands around their neck and squeezing, they soon let go! I have used this technique successfully with our bull terriers in the distant past.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Frank Skinner, iirc

In reply to Timmd:

Cricket bat to the plumbs. then run

In reply to Timmd:

Kneel heavily on the biters neck. Full weight! No half measures. Also has the advantage of leaving your hands free to fight off the owner who will insist the dog is 'only playing'!

The main problem with dogs is their owners!

In reply to ceri:

Thanks, squeezing the collar seems like the least damaging way of stopping things, for both of the dogs involved. It was staffie sized, but I don't know what kind of dog it was. I get the impression that they're popular with a certain kind of person because they look scarier than they actually are, being gentle in nature on the whole.

 

In reply to Timmd:

I've had to do this. It was a big lurcher cross with its jaws around my lurchers neck.

It happened very very quickly and it was traumatic. I'm guessing it took about 20 seconds to get the dog to let go, during which time I punched it in the face probably 10 times as hard as i physically could.  Damaged my hand badly.  Though i can't remember that much in detail.

I know there are probably better ways but it was all I could thing of at the time. It did not end well for both dogs.

regards

mark

In reply to Timmd:

 

To quote Billy Connolly; "tattooed f*ckwits with a shark on a lead."

 

In reply to Big Ger:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Wayne+Coyne+riding+a+unicorn&oq=Wayne...:

In reply to Big Ger:

Thanks mate, I'll take that as a compliment. But my original advice stands. A dog in attack mode is a raging beast and thrashing around, trying to grab its collar will be a hard task. Kicking it in the ribs is the easiest option, big target area and at the least it will wind the dog and give you time to assess the situation. 

In reply to johncook:

That's putting my plums a bit too near the bitey end for my liking!

 

In reply to Big Ger:

I gave that a like  

In reply to Big Ger:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=tablet-android-tmobile-gb&biw=10...:

In reply to Fozzy:

My point above! 

 

In reply to Timmd:

I read somewhere, I think it was a Tom Sharpe book, that the way to deal with an attacking dog is to grab its front paws and pull them apart as hard and fast as you can, the sternum becomes separated and the dog quickly looses all interest and is in no condition to re attack, if indeed its still alive.

 

 

 

 

 

In reply to Timmd:

You should never try to separate a dog fight or you run a high risk of being bitten yourself.

As someone has said a bucket of water over them usually works, failing that some other liquid. As the OP said this was at a drinks party, so plenty of liquid there!

In reply to Fozzy:

I have a Staffie and have had for the past 25 years. They are frequently the target of unprovoked attacks from off lead "family pets"I understand that it's a media driven frenzy that has got these dogs a bad name along with so called "oiks" but the violence you are suggesting is not on. Google what do vets think of staffies. From personal experience I know collies can be highly strung and unpredictable as they are a large working dog that requires an inordinate amount of exercise and attention. I witnessed a collie round up a group of kids  nipping several of them in the process, which the owner laughed off. Had that been reported, the dog would have been destroyed. With regard to courses of action against an attack,a collie attacked my friends old sleeping dog in Cheedale which resulted in said collie being thrown into the river Wye and if the owner had set about kicking my friends dog, he,d have also ended up in there. Calm down, all dogs irrespective of breed are capable of having an altercation with other dogs. In fact the breed that inflicts most bites on people are labs.

In reply to Trangia:

We were at the gate to the park/green area, so some way away from the drinks tent.  I think I might struggle to not try and separate 2 dogs again, the noise the victim dog made was pretty pitiful, quite hard to ignore. Lesson learned about my fingers though, in hindsight I was pretty lucky.

In reply to aln:

11 dislikes for me being me. The world keeps getting stranger. 

In reply to Timmd:

Tell the attacking dog a funny joke?

In reply to Dave the Rave:

Ha ha, I wish. I want to think of one now...humour from a dog's point of view

I wonder what that would be?

In reply to Timmd:

I don't own a dog any more but have been walking my mate's Border for the past few years.

I ALWAYS take a stick, sturdy blackthorn in my case.

I have had to fend a few dogs off Ronnie with it but tbh he invites trouble.

The main reason for it, though, is that when I owned a Staffie in the early 80s one of the regular topics among owners was how to break the grip of one which had fastened onto another dog. The remedy was to insert the stick under the Staffie's collar (yes, I know, easier said than done) then give it a quarter turn. Repeat as necessary.

Sadly, I fear the main problem with this is not the danger of injury to yourself or the dog, but the reaction of the dog's owner, as has been said elsewhere.

 

In reply to Timmd:

What does a scientists dog do with bones?

 

 

 

 

Barium!

It just cracked up my Collie that!

In reply to DerwentDiluted:

I've heard that too, but if it doesn't work you've just pulled a very dischuffed hound into close proximity to your now unprotected body.

In reply to Timmd:

Jeez is no-one listening? Just kick the f*cking dog! 

In reply to aln:

I saw two dogs fighting in the car park at rodellar. The owners tried to stop it by throwing water, that didn't work so they then tried kicking them. Starting with gentle kicks, followed by kicking them as hard as possible with a run up. The dogs didn't notice, at all. Luckily they got bored of fighting at stopped when the felt like it.

In reply to rocksol:

If the horrid thing had let go when I tried to pull it off by the collar, it wouldn’t have needed kicking. As it was, its jaws were locked on, it was ragging my collie (who was screaming throughout, the worst noise I’ve ever heard) and the mouthbreathing peasant who owned it made no move to try and help.

That’s why I kicked it repeatedly. And I can assure you, if kicking hadn’t have worked, the penknife in my hand surely would have done. 

In reply to Timmd:

There are a lot of dogs with chain mail collars around these parts.  From experience most collars would snap before they exerted too much force on the dogs throat.  These are dog with necks which remember they can pretty much hang off a branch and do a dance for 10mins.  They are about the thickness of a bodybuilders thigh muscle and in full on attack mode the dog has its mouth full of the other dog and is breathing through its nose anyhow.  You would have to go some to get it to let go before the stick broke or the collar snapped.

 

The best way is stick in the mouth while everyone else beats the crap out of the dog.  I have split up a fair few cat fights with water but I suspect in full attack mode a dog such as a staffie or bull terrier wouldn't bat an eyelid.

In reply to Andrew Kin:

A guy at the scene shouted briefly about putting a stick in, but only really poked his walking pole tip at the dog's mouth briefly and put it down again, because he was kinda drunk I think. The most frequent tips on this thread seem to be cut off the air supply or put a stick in, or kick it in the ribs. 

In reply to Timmd:

I have heard that they will panic and let go if they can't see, so chuck a jacket over it's head. Not tried it, but it seems like a relatively low risk option so worth a try!

In reply to Ade in Sheffield:

In the bollocks, I think...

In reply to aln:

.......and then the owner ???......

In reply to rocksol:

Is that because most dogs are Labs?

The whole 'Staffies aren't dangerous dogs' argument played out by their owners is bollocks. They're dangerous because of their bite power, not their aggressiveness. A Yorkshire terrier is a highly agressive bitey thing with an ultra-short fuse but isn't going to kill anything bigger than a rabbit, whereas a Staffie will kill an adult if pushed to the end of its very long fuse. In risk assessment terms, the outcome of the highly-unlikely Staffie attack is so bad the risk of an attack HAS to be controlled.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Yes I can well imagine the more well heeled UKC ers forming a queue to chuck their brand new Arcteryx jackets over the head of the slavering jaw snapping beast to see if this theory works....

In reply to Timmd:

Shove a stick in the back corner of its mouth or lift the back legs above its head.

 

 

As taught to Dog Wardens & dog handlers.

In reply to Timmd:

Should of killed xxxxxx thing or caused as much harm too it as possible.  How many times have we heard dangerous dogs such as this and others causing serious injury. Yes any dog can be dangerous but there are certain types more so than others and this full fills the profile surely.  

Any owner should be capable of dealing with their dogs behavior what ever it is. 

In reply to Timmd:

We had a problem a few years ago and luckily there was a park warden near by. He sprayed deodorant in the dogs nose and eyes and it let go. Might be worth looking into. A deo can is pretty easy to pack into a jacket pocket.

In reply to Toerag:

100% and it is not just staffies it is all the various cross breeds.  Let us be clear, while some people may have innocent motives for owning one the majority own them as status dogs, weapons and fighting dogs.

Far better that they are prohibited and the ones that are alive sterilised so that the breed dies out.

If you want a dog there are hundreds of types of dogs to chose from that do not have a history of killing people (mainly children).

In reply to David Cohen:

I'd hate to pour water over the argument, but Staffies are widely considered one of the best breeds of dogs to have around children. As always it's rarely the dog that's at fault but the owner; perhaps we need to curtail the right for people to own dogs without any scrutiny?

The majority of people I know who have dogs don't understand their needs, don't understand that leaving a single dog at home 10 hours a day every day while they work is absolutely not ok for the dog, and don't put the level of effort in to train them effectively. I'm vehemently against blaming the dog when the problem is nearly always the cretin on the other end of the leash.

In reply to Toerag:

As will a German Shepherd, or a Siberian Husky, or any large dog if it really wants to. Should we ban ownership of everything larger than a Beagle? Of course not.

In reply to Timmd:

The best way to make a biting dog release is to grab it's back legs and walk away wheelbarrows get the the dog following a circular path. The dog will be more bothered about keeping its balance and will release. It also keeps you away from the business end too. 

In reply to David Cohen:

What does " all the various cross breeds" mean? 

 

In reply to calumhicks:

Did he spray it through a naked flame? :-D

 

In reply to tehmarks:

That's the thing, when I was growing up it was all Rottweilers and Dobermans in the tabloids eating the faces off things. It would be interesting to see stats to see if there were as many of those then as there are Staffies now. Not sure if they're the same 'dangerousness' as bull terriers - can't bull terriers 'lock their jaws' or something?

In reply to Toerag:

Here's the results of a quick google

https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2017.php

http://www.animals24-7.org/2016/10/14/dog-attacks-surge-76-in-england-in-10...

The second shows a massive dispreponderance of bull terriers involved in fatal attacks.

 

In reply to Wsdconst:

My dog training, fostering and rehoming friend told me that this weekend, that if you pick them up under the 'waist' and lift their back legs off the floor, they can tilt their head around in surprise and let go with their mouth.

In reply to Toerag:

There's an obvious mechanism that might make a popular prediction of the "most dangerous breed of dog" a self-fulfilling prophesy here.  The kind of dickhead who wants a shark on a string will naturally be attracted to the breed with the worst reputation, that breed will then tend to get into more strife because it's disproportionally likely to have a f*ckwit for an owner.

 

In reply to deepsoup: Indeed, and they'll be more likely to want to turn it into an aggressive dog. A friend's sister has a dog which has come out like that thanks to her ex-partner, it has a fear aggression reaction against just about all other dogs, and it seems to be too far gone for it to be changed for the better now. 

In reply to calumhicks:

I think you can buy 'travel deodorants' which are smaller. It turns out my dog training friend's husband put his fingers around a dog's mouth too, and lost a finger nail one time they had an incident with a foster dog in their home. It's nice to know I'm not the first person to make that mistake. 

In reply to tehmarks:

Why not? 

 

In reply to Timmd:

Something I've not seen on the thread is this ....

Take the back legs of the attacking dog and wheel them around. It will respond to the loss of balance and let go. Of course, as people have pointed out, you then have an irate dog in a game of wheelbarrow. 

That came from a guy who ran a dog shelter that dealt with plenty of staffies. 

In reply to dunc56: I can’t say I’ve been following this thread, but surely a lethal injection is the obvious solution to this problem?

 

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Silly man.

 

From 1890 to 2010, the rate of botched[a] lethal injections in the United States was 7.1%, higher than any other form of execution, with firing squads at 0%, the electric chair at 1.9%, hanging at 3.1%, and the gas chamber at 5.4%.[11]

In reply to maxticate:

Because the canine companion is rarely the problem. Instead, I propose that we remove the intrinsic right for people to own a dog until they prove they're both capable and responsible.

In reply to tehmarks:

Which is a fair enough comment, but there really is no reason for anyone to own a big dog other than preference. Therefore no real need to have big breeds other than tradition. 

 

In reply to dunc56:

I am assuming a firing squad wouldn’t be practical in this situation.

 

jcm

 

In reply to maxticate:

People have emotional reactions to certain breeds of dogs,  there's no real reason to have many things which we humans do.

In reply to maxticate:

If you take that to its logical conclusion, there is really no reason for anyone to own a dog other than preference, if you don't have a working breed for working. Thankfully though, dogs have been a part of human society for thousands of years and I don't anticipate that changing.

In reply to maxticate:

Most of the debate has been about Staffies which don't really count as big dogs, in spite of their strength. Mine weighed about 20 kg in his prime, fairly easy to lift and hold back on the lead.

In reply to girlymonkey:

So, throw something over their head, pick up their back half, and maybe poke a finger up thier bum too.

In reply to Timmd:

You do it and I'll watch...

In reply to Timmd:

Eye sockets  pencil. Pen key Thumb 

then grot it 

i would not  interfere unless human life at risk  

In reply to Name Changed 34:

It's definitely something to be very careful about. 

In reply to Timmd:

OK so that's the owner, now what about the dog?