UKC

I know there's a lot of threads related to this, but I need to get specific.

Looking for multipitch diffs and v diffs around Keswick / Ambleside - especially if it has a mountaineering feel.

My partner has been coming on some longer climbs with me but gets very nervous on climbs where I go out of view, or when she can't see me belaying from the end of the previous pitch.

Any suggestions?

I would suggest trying to work on the causes of that anxiety, as it seems like something that can be dealt with through clear briefing, clear climbing calls and picking routes within their ability.

Route suggestions:

Long Scar: single pitch, but in a fine setting and helps get the whole process dialled and relaxed.

Wallowbarrow, particularly Trinity Slabs and Wall and Corner. Delightful VDiffs with plenty of ledges and slabby, intuitive climbing. Ideally, start on TS.

Gouther, Truss Buttress (VD) and possibly Kennel Wall (S).

Dow, C Ordinary and Giant's Crawl. Both Diff and brilliant. Can belay almost at will.

Grey Crags, Birkness Coombe... great routes but a punishing walk, so be careful if they're not super fit.

Hopefully that's a good start

Walkie talkies have been a bit of a revelation in this regard for me and my wife (whose voice does not travel at all). May be worth considering. 

I would suggest you enquire if your partner actually enjoys climbing, or is just doing it because it makes you happy.

The left hand side of Ravens Crag in Langdale has four or more, low grade, high quality, multi pitch routes with short pitches and easy communication. Original Route for starters.

I don't want to go into too much detail, but it's more to do with the act of tying into a rope outside. (something happened that should not have happened). She's still comfortable leading 6a+ in the gym and bouldering outside.

We built up to her comfotably top roping HVD last week, but she wants to get on an easy multipitch now, which I agree will help her headspace, given it's the right route.

She loves it for being out in the mountains, but hates being scared. Which is absolutely fine, hence the easy routes.

I'm fully aware that if I asked her to join me on something close to my limit, she would try despite not wanting to, so I'm trying to be cautious.

Corvus Corvus (D) on Raven crag is an absolute belter. Caveats being that you are sometimes out of view of each other, and the hand traverse pitch looks intimidating but is full of jugs and isn't as exposed as the photos on here make it look.

Really thoughtful post. I can remember some unpleasant experiences as a second on multis - partner not taking in slack so I felt like I was basically soloing; having to untie mid-pitch due to stuck rope - when I couldn't see or hear my partner to communicate. They definitely left me with a feeling that I couldn't trust that I was on belay, and that I was on my own if something went wrong (hard to problem solve before you lead). So I feel for her if that's the case with her. Props to you for trying to work through it. 

I'm sorry I don't have any great suggestions - Middlefell Buttress is a nice Diff with massive belay ledges so you can check in and sit down and have a picnic if you want,  but you definitely have no line of sight. I'm assuming you don't have a third who could join for the first time for reassurance? 

If there's a Little Tryfan equivalent I think you want that, to learn what it feels like belaying from a belay stance, etc, get to trust the system and what's about to happen, but I'm afraid I don't know it. Good luck anyway. 

I'd take it down a level and do lots of roped scrambling, forget trying to move up a grade, just enjoy being in the hills on rock, the height, the views, the moves and not being terrified. 

I obviously don't know the circumstances, but if it's a fear attributed to a rope, could leading on doubles help? So that she has the comfort of two ropes, two knots etc?

I hope all goes well. (Bowfell Buttress in Langdale is one of my all time favourite routes. Used to be VDiff, recently upgraded due to a bit of polish on the crux, which is 1 step of HS, but the HS crack is off a flat grassy ledge, so belay just above and keep the rope tight.)

There are a few options at Castle Rock South from what I remember, Yew Tree Climb could be a good candidate.

Queen of the Traverse mentioned a Little Tryfan equivalent, the closest I can think of is Brown Slab at Shepherds, you should be in view the whole way up those, although it is possible to do the whole thing in one rope length.

Some of the ridges up at the Napes could be good, she might move out of view for a couple of metres every now and again but it shouldn't be horrendous.

The routes at the left hand end of White Ghyll on the slab are probably the best I can think of for low grades and good visibility the whole way.

Could probably split the Corvus pitches if need be. Nice route, only got round to it ourselves the other day after many visits to the lakes.

+1 for this suggestion. Should suit perfectly.

+1 for that.  If I was asked to take the OP's partner for a few days' climbing, I'd be starting with a day at Brown Slabs, maybe breaking them into 2 or even 3 pitches just to get the familiarity and mechanics sorted.  The leftmost of the easy routes has a belay hidden just out of sight around the side in a niche, which would be a good stepping stone to bigger things.  Then, as long as that goes well, wander to the other end for Jackdaw Ridge and slightly more mountain-y feel.

Middlefell is a good suggestion. You just need the leader to belay part way up what is normally climbed as pitch 2, i.e. do the route in 4 pitches. Very doable and a good plan with nervous novices, avoiding a 40m pitch that lands you out of sight.

The best equivalent for Tryfan Bach - actually even better - is Long Scar on Pike O'Blisco. The only concern is weather, as it can be misty and/or very windy and cold, if the forecast is against you. Fortunately, you can get a Met Office forecast specific to PO'B, but it is sometimes too negative and sometimes too positive, so treat it with a degree of skepticism  comparing it with Eskdale, Langdale and Ambleside forecasts.

Trinity Slabs is the ultimate intro for novices. Big ledges at 10m intervals, easy slabby climbing, beautiful setting.

Shamefully, the recent FRCC guide upgraded it to Severe, which is such patent nonsense that I wonder if they were hallucinating. They were possibly influenced by guide text that used to read "at the top of its grade", but had been copied across guides from when it was given Diff. It's actually a soft VDiff.

Rockfax did something similarly daft with upgrading C Ordinary (practically an exciting walk) from Diff to VDiff and the FRCC have previous form with the risable regrading of Bowfell Buttress from VDiff to HS... due, apparently, to it containing 3m of 4a climbing.

Anyway, that's a separate rant!

Fully agree with all of that!

Middlefell Buttress in Langdale is an obvious easy-access option, but you'd disappear at the top of each pitch. It's so slabby and ledgy though, you could probably just do shorter pitches and belay when you're getting to the 'out of sight' area. It would take much longer doing this though, obviously.

The problem with Castle Rock south is that it’s convex towards the top, so can’t really see each other. As I recall …..!

Second this. Such an underrated addition to the rack. I know there will be people that will moan about it spoiling traditional ethics but they’re a game changer and you won’t have to limit your route/crag choices. So much nicer than anxiously second guessing things, or shouting your lungs off and disturbing others / wildlife. They’re the best investment I made.  

I'm a fan of Middlefell (other than that horrible move at the start of the last pitch, which might spook them if not forewarned) but the problem is your leader is out of sight on all the pitches, not just the second one, no? 

Can you split up the pitches on Long Scar easily? Agree it's a nice SP crag. (Also Glaciated Slabs I discovered, and beautiful setting, but clambering over those boulders to get to it is less fun...) 

In reply to The Norris:

In reply to dig26:

We took some walkie walkies with us to Hoy and the were so useful. I've also been in multiple places where a walkie talkie would be really useful before and since and they'll come with us on anything where it's long/windy/seaside/etc. The Motoroloa TLKR T series are great, waterproof, license free, robust and you can switch the annoying beeps off. You can lanyard them easily and you can leave them on and they last for hours. 

The leader can be out of sight... It really depends. People often stick religiously to guidebook belays, but the truth is you could belay at will on Middlefell... When taking a novice out, it's good to be so comfortable with the route that you can make decisions based more on their needs than your own. E.g. belay on a ledge above a tough section so you can offer advice, rather than 4m higher where you'd be out of sight. That's partly why taking novices multipitching can be tricky: because, ideally, you need to have a lot of skills to really be able act flexibly and to prioritise the needs of the novices rather than your own. Otherwise, you will sooner or later find yourself relying on the "robustness" of the novice as the only way of dealing with a situation, e.g. having to shout at them: "you need to try to climb thay bit!" because you can't think of another way to deal with the situation.

This. Saves so much stress. Just get a cheap pair, because there's no such thing as a good pair.

Out of interest, how do you use/wear them Tim? Do you just put them in a pocket, or do you have a holder or something?

I stick a small loop of 4mm cord through the loop at the back (or at the bottom) and clip onto the harness or onto a rucksack loop. They can be stored at the back out of the way and they'll still be loud enough to hear if one of you needs something that can't be communicated directly.

You cannot beeat anyhting on BrownSlabs at Sheperds Carg as an ideal entry point.

Leader doesn't need to be out of sight at any time on Middlefell Buttress, just split the pitches.

Long Scar is single pitch and no need to split as all are quite short, with comms being straightforward

I think the grade creep for BB was partly to try to warn novice leaders that it is a serious route that shouldn't be taken lightly. Which seems reasonable. There are a few moves on it that feel more than VD and if that's the top of your current ability it could prove awkward to retreat.

And whilst C Ordinary may well be nice easy climbing / scrambling, it's in a pretty serious setting and for a novice party the route-finding may not be easy. Nothing more difficult than Middlefell, but you can't shout down to the pub from Dow! So seems a reasonable upgrade.

Fair enough, I couldn't remember if there was enough gear to easily split them.

I know Long Scar is SP - I believe the OP was looking for multi only. 

Try Middlefell Buttress, Jackdaw Ridge, Corvus, or Harrow Buttress.

Bowfell Buttress isn't "serious" in the sense of dangerous, as it is well protected throughout with good belay ledges. It is escapable, too, as an ab retreat is very manageable. So, whe  you say "serious" I can only presume that you mean, as with C Ordinary, that it is not always busy and is over an hour long approach... Is this really a robust way to start regrading pitches? Should we upgrade all the climbs on Bowfell for the same reason? Should Eliminate A be a HVS because you have to navigate some scree on the approach? Seems like nonsense to me.

Yes I realise there's loads of good gear on BB, so not serious in that sense. But it's a route in the high mountains, with a long approach and likely few others nearby and this all adds to the more serious nature of the route / crag. Having climbed BB many times with lots of different people I've seen some cruise the crux, whilst others have had a battle on it and this is people who would cruise VD's. Suggests the crux is a bit tricky for the grade. If you were a novice climber operating at VD and up on BB the crux could definitely provide more excitement than expected. For some that'll be fine, whilst others may get into a pickle. When stressed we don't always think clearly, thus it's a route with potential to be serious.

Comparing BB with Eliminate A is maybe a bit harsh. Anyone aiming for mountain VS's will likely have plenty experience to better judge what's in store.

On the subject of grade creep and Dow though. I remember climbing Leopards Crawl (HVS) and thinking we were being short changed. It felt mega serious.

But this might all be nonsense

I agree about Leopard's crawl... it does feel serious up the final groove... there is... just about... enough gear. But, only if you really search. Scared myself there once, as moves up the groove also feel a little awkward.

Re: BB, even taking your point, I'm not sure why it went up 2 full grades, instead of 1... But, maybe it was just to give people like me something to moan about