UKC

This weekend I was thinking about guidebooks that don't exist that I would like to read, I have found myself thinking that 'there should be a guidebook that covers XYZ' a lot, mostly they don't exist because they are bad ideas but just for fun, I thought I'd list them here...

Any more ideas (serious or non serious) welcome!

Great Granite: A guide to granite climbs in Great Britain.
British Rock: A single guidebook for visitors to the UK showcasing the best of the climbing all over. Top crags only, and a few pages per crack, enough to climb at each crag for a day maybe.
Long Rock: Another for the Classic/Hard/Extreme Rock collection, this volume covers a ticklist of the longest routes in the UK.

Other ideas:
Lonely climbs: a book for the bank holidays?
Welcome to crack school: a ticklist guide to the great crack climbs of the UK in association with the WideBoyz

In reply to BStar:

Scrambles and Easy Climbs in the Pyrenees.

I've been to the French Pyrenees a couple of times in the last few years, and it feels like it ought to be a perfect destination for flask-of-tea-toting British trad bumblies. Unfortunately, the currently available guidebooks seem to be some combination of too selective, too comprehensive, too terse, too verbose, too full of routes at Difficile and above
and too French, so it seems like there's a gap in the market for a usable English-language guidebook dedicated to the Pyreneen equivalents of routes like Tryfan North Ridge, Tower Ridge, South Ridge Direct and so on.

In reply to BStar:

How about a definitive Carneddau guide? For some reason the CC have decided that they're not going to publish one and that leaves a huge gap that is anything but esoteric.

In reply to BStar:

Rock and Ice climbing guide to the Fens

In reply to BStar:

Updated guidebook(s) to Northumberland bouldering and trad.

In reply to BStar:

Esoteric rock climbs of the British Isles; a compendium of the crumbly, wet, obscure, speleological and pinnacled. This guide will open your mind to what is possible if you have stout waterproofs, a dinghy, two headtorches and a rack full of warthogs.

Also not really a guidebook but what about a tribute to ken Wilson in the form of VS Rock, a conclusion to his wonderful series?

In reply to BStar:

A decent climbing guide to Romsdal that isn't ancient. It's one of those places that could become a lot more popular.

In reply to BStar:


This would be a slim but very good volume.

In reply to BStar:

A peak select guide, listing dif to E1; after all this is the most useful range for most weekend warriros. If you strip out the E2-------- grades, a peak guide becomes feasible

In reply to BStar:

Dry rock in the Lakes.

In reply to BStar:

There is a gap in coverage if not the market for a book covering the patchy crags from where the Wye valley books end and the Peak begins, ie Worcestershire, Leicestershire, Shropshire, Nottinghamshire, South Yorks east of the M1. Theres a surprising amount there, from the well known of Anston Stones etc to the truly esoteric. Such a book could save many a washed out trip to the Peak or N. Wales for southerners!

In reply to BStar:


how to guarantee that all our favourite quiet crags have queues...

In reply to BStar:

Dow, Duddon and Slate

In reply to pasbury:


Totally agree. Decades ago I was contacted about a VS Rock compendium from Ken's stable, edited, if I remember correctly, by Dave Alcock. I contributed an essay which was probably not what they were looking for (short on detail about the route, more on my changing feelings about it/climbing). And then I never heard any more and the book didn't come out. (Maybe this was around the time Extreme Rock came out and Ken had to drag his horns in, so to speak.)

If I'd been Ken (a shocking thought!), once Hard Rock was a winner, I'd have gone straight for VS Rock, rather than Classic Rock. On many traditional crags, VSs take arguably the best lines of weakness - typically cracks and corners. VS was once the benchmark grade in climbing (when, for most of us, HVS/XS was fantasy). Nowadays your typical F6a/6b leader would have an absolute ball doing classic VSs.

And, as you say, it would be a great tribute to Ken - sadly missed though never to be forgotten.

Mick

In reply to BStar:


There already is one : http://www.smc.org.uk/publications/climbing/scottish-rock-climbs

Though it mostly confines itself to a few words per crack.

In reply to BStar:

- A sports guide book that covers all the stuff within an hours drive of Bristol over the bridge (e.g. Tirpentwys) that's not in the current great western rock guide.
- An updated version of the lower wye valley guide (Trad only)

- Online versions of the lower wye valley and the wye valley sports guides, downloadable as an App with topo's and covering all the routes (not just a select few)

In reply to Mick Ward:
Interesting, I did understand that it had got beyond the concept stage. I wonder how far it got and if it could be resurrected.

I agree that it would probably have been the most popular of the lot. VS is under-represented in Hard and Classic Rock and it's one of the magic grades for trad climbing in the UK. It would provide me with great inspiration to get out there in my dotage!

Let's crowd source it - UKC is full of trad bumblies who operate at VS and one or two can write a bit too, there's a few handy photographers about.

Of course agreeing on the shortlist might take about 20 years!

p.s. bagsies for Armorican

In reply to BStar:

The wild campers climbing guide, all the craigs should be in the middle of nowhere with a long scenic walk in.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

If it's esoteric you're after, look up the Frome Valley climbing guide. Just recently published....

In reply to Ramblin dave:

I don't think there is much space for scrambling in the Pyrenees, it's part tradition and part nature of the terrain, but it's either unchallenging walk or serious climbing. Not much inbetween.

I suppose the erosion pattern has something to do with it, but what could be an entertaining scramble usually ends up being shite. On the western limestone you end up either with mountains of choss or 7b+ aiguilles. The Vignemale massif is made of veins of grey choss stacked on veins of red choss. Too bad, the slopes would be nice. I guess the central granite could have some nice scrambles but before you get to the bottom of the routes you have to make a 6 hour approach, in more choss.

There's a cultural part too. In the Pyrenees, either you walk following the GR marks or you are a mountain guide - level climber (I would know, I am neither). I could write something longer about the essence of Pyreneism, but basically you don't make one with the mountain by scrambling, a bastard activity. You can only get in full synergy either with a soft walk, gathering flowers (not in the national park) or by almost getting obliterated by a limestone block on a 14-pitch route.

In reply to Theo Moore:

The new guide books for Northumberland are underway. Iv been photographing a large number of crags all over Northumberland for Steve Blake. I believe that the guides will contain all the climbing and bouldering at the crags not one for climbing and another for bouldering. There has been so much development all over Northumberland since the last guides that i believe to fit all the climbing and bouldering into the same guide they are going to do it in 2 volumes one covering the south and the other the north of Northumberland. Im not sure how far along these guides are, but im sure someone with more upto date info will be along shortly with a update on how soon you will be able to get your hands on one or both.

In reply to Robert Durran:


...and to be updated in a while new format.

In reply to BStar:

A winter climbing guide to Lofoten and Senja. I've seen some great looking mixed lines but it's really difficult to find good, usable information. There must have been enough development to warrant a guidebook given an ice climbing guide has already been published for the nearby Bodø area.

In reply to BStar:

A guidebook that fits in my pocket.

In reply to BStar:
There were rumours a wee while ago that Johnny Dawes was going to produce an "Extreme Walks" guidebook to no-hands climbs. Doubt I'd ever climb er.. walk them, but I'd buy a copy.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155711874574772

In reply to BStar:

Classic benightments

In reply to pasbury:

Agree - the shortlist would be challenging! What's that tiny little one on Dartmoor - only about twenty feet but golden? I'd wanted to do it for decades and of course soloing meant that it was all over in seconds. But seconds of pure joy. So we did it again... and again. You've still got to take it seriously though; it's no pushover.

I just can't understand why Ken didn't bring VS Rock out straight after Hard Rock. All the Hard Rock tickers would have bought it too - and it would have attracted a separate market of VS rather than Extreme climbers.

Obviously the current standard of photography is superlative. Getting strong enough essays would, I suspect, be harder. The best accounts might come from those who climbed VS cracks sans cams (or even hexes?) when VS was a grade to be respected - if not feared.

Although I'm hopelessly out of touch, it seems that, after years of video hegemony, we're now in a golden age of climbing books in the UK. Obviously Peak Rock was pretty good. The excerpts that I've seen of the forthcoming Gogarth book are stunning, lots and lots of grassroots accounts, with brilliant editorial commentary, the whole adding up to much, much more than the sum of the parts.

It's also interesting how quickly people can get books out these days. A while back, Dave Flanagan was wondering which routes to include in his Irish select guide - and then suddenly it was out, with amazing photography - this in a country where it hardly ever stops raining!

I'm far too knackered but you - or someone else - should go for VS Rock. I've long thought it an unpicked plum and, as you've mentioned it, grab it.

Mick

P.S. Although I'm hopelessly out of touch and must have missed some gems, the BMC guidebook 'Over The Moors' edited by Martin Kocsis, with Ian Carr and Grimer is one of the best I've ever seen. I gather there were rows about accuracy but, with untold thousands of facts, you could never get everything right. Have it on the table in front of me - joy beyond compare.

In reply to pasbury:

I'm not sure VS is actually under-represented in Classic/Hard Rock? A fair number of routes given Severe in Classic Rock are VS nowadays...

In reply to BStar:

'Great Granite' would be a brilliant book. 'British Rock' wouldn't work I don't think - it would either have to be much too selective or become about the size of 4 guides put together!

In reply to wilkie14c:

I like it! I was thinking of something else along the lines of multiday routes of the uk, or adventurous routes etc, I presume the routes for classic benightments would just be the same except with a poor route description and an out of date topo

In reply to BStar:
poor preparation, hungover and a late start ignoring any weather warnings compulsory!

seriously though, i'd love a rockfax pocketz type very small and selected book for the eastern and western grit

edit. just seen they already do them! on the shopping list next time out. Must have missed these somehow

In reply to Mick Ward:

Suspension flake?

Buttermere etc

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Well Hard Rock only has Great/Bow, The Crack and Engineers Slabs which are all bona-fide classics. Classic Rock does have quite a few but they're a motley bunch (Hargreaves Original excepted)!

In reply to BStar:

A definitive guide to Yorkshire bouldering must surly be on the list.

In reply to haworthjim:

Rockfax guide to the Ecrins please! The Chamonix one is brilliant!

In reply to Jon Stewart:
That would be quick and easy to write

In reply to pasbury:


and South Ridge Direct


"Classic Rock does have quite a few but they're a motley bunch (Hargreaves Original excepted)!"

The Chasm and Clean Sweep are in there. But point taken. For some reason I thought Overhanging Bastion was in there; it definitely deserved to be. That said, it probably wouldn't go in now!

In reply to BStar:

Exmoor Coast is an obvious gap in the current guidebook canon.

In reply to pasbury:


Yes, that's it. Brilliant. 'Eternity in a piece of sand'. Well almost.

Mick

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Prow on Blaven is VS as well isn't it ?

In reply to Mick Ward:
When compiling my VS list https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=52 (helped via lengthy forum discussion) a few years ago I did have in mind a project of climbing, photographing/drawing and writing up all the routes. Wasn't strictly thinking in terms of a guidebook, more an experiential journal, profiling partners I shared the experience with as well as the routes, it may still happen one day.
Frustrating that the 20+ routes I've already done from the list weren't adequately recorded, but they're not bad climbs to revisit!
The list may benefit from tweaking, in retrospect including all the classic rock VSes might not be enhancing the quality, and as pointed out above Overhanging Bastion might need replacing in light of the yawning crack of doom!

In reply to BStar:

E0 Rock?

In reply to BStar:

The Idle Slob's Guide To Fast Food Outlets

In reply to BStar:

"The climbs of the John Wayne Memorial Crag," fully illustrated, coffee table, hardback edition.

In reply to drolex:

There's loads of good rock in the Pyrenees.

From Dent d'orlu in the East, to pic du midi d'osseau in the west.

Massive area, no English guidebook worth buying.

In reply to GrahamD:

It is, yes. For some reason I thought it had been upgraded but maybe it gets HVS in the Gary Latter book.

In reply to JayPee630:


I thought the RF Chamonix had excellent topos, good descriptions (some usefully updates on changes to routes) and coverage of some newer routes that were not in my other guidebooks. Also like the season indicators for routes. It's somewhere between a guidebook and a coffee table book for me though as the format is just too big to take on a climb (or even take on the plane). For me it's too selective and there's too many worthwhile routes omitted. It's given me some good ideas for my next visit but I'll be taking some photos of the guide and leaving it at home.

I'd like to see a newer definitive guide to Bernese Oberland as I'm sure a lot of routes have changed since the old AC guide was published. The seracs on the north faces have probably changed for example. Something in the Snow, Ice and Mixed guides that crams as many routes as possible into a relatively small format. Same goes for Valais.

In reply to Lee Harrison:
Yeah, but for an alpine punter like me who'll do a couple of visits to Chamonix it's perfect!

Agree about the format though, we tried taking a couple of photos on the phone, but then when it came to find the route they weren't any use.

I do wish pocket style guides were more usable/more commonly produced.

In reply to BStar:

I've been thinking for a long time that maybe somebody needs to publish something like 'Classic Chimney'. A book filled with the most disgustingly esoteric speleological outings in the UK. Definitely the kind of book i'd imagine you'd keep under your bed in a shoe box and not show the wife...

In reply to BStar:

Routes I've done (now with with inflated grades)

In reply to Lee Harrison:

I think you've hit the nail on the head about it falling somewhere between guidebook and coffee table book. It's good for browsing and inspiration, though not quite coffee table standard in visual quality. They could have easily saved space by, to take one example, not dedicating an entire double spread to the Rebuffat-Baquet, and cut the word count by half if they'd removed the hyperbolic blether.

While I'm sure a lot of the topos and descriptions are excellent, that was not our experience. We found so many glaring inaccuracies in our first few routes this summer, and spent so much time trying to decipher photo topos for long intricate rock routes, that we sacked it off for other guides.

Back on topic - it'll never happen, but I'd love a super select guidebook that does properly what I tried to do with this ticklist https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=2118 for the whole of Europe. Maybe in two parts for west and east.

In reply to Andy Moles:


There are at least two: Stéphanie Bodet and Arnaud Petit's Parois de légende and Martin Finkweiler's Multi-Pitch Rock Climbing in Europe.

An English language and updated Parois de légende would find readers.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


So you're a fan of the A5 pamphlet.

In reply to flaneur:




I have it in French and would probably buy an English translation if it were ever published.
The closest I can think of to Andy's ticklist is: https://www.bmcshop.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=6572
It's a fantastic book of dreams, but focuses on the punterish grades rather than the full range.

In reply to S Andrew:


https://www.needlesports.com/2908/products/buttermere-and-st-bees.aspx

In reply to flaneur:

Parois de légende is fantastic but it's worldwide and a bit random as to what's included. I wasn't aware of the Finkweiler book, it looks beautiful, though it seems to select the best areas rather than the best routes - might have to go on the Christmas list anyway.

In reply to ChrisBrooke:


Yeah it's about time they did a Schweiz Extrem select, liberally annexing the best of the countries around (which they often do anyway).

I know ????. I just don't want to buy the 10 year old one and find that a new one appears shortly after. I'm still working from the Buttermere & E one with The Philistine on the front.

In reply to BStar:

is there a book Best Scambles in UK/Wales/Lakes/Scotland does anybody know?

In reply to Andy Moles:

In the interest of fairness/full disclosure: the Plaisir level is fine for a punter like me

In reply to tmawer:
what about a ring binder guidebook. Laminated type pages, take the ones you are going to use then replace in binder.

Anyone around from Rockfax?

In reply to BStar:

I wonder if UKC could fill this gap? Put topo photos on the intro page to a crag, and let ticklists provide the route selection. They would have to weigh up the revenue they get from book sales against the increase in advertising revenue from people using the site more. It must be the future...

In reply to spartacus:
I think that was the original concept rockfax had in mind- from the word Filofax.

In reply to S Andrew:

I imagine the next one will be a while off, they still haven't replaced the long out of print Dow guide

In reply to spartacus:



This was first suggested about 20 years ago and has come back every so often after that. The brief look I had revealed that it is a total non-starter from a publishing point of view. Ridiculously expensive and unmanageable in terms of knowing how many of each to print.

The app is our solution to the portability problem.

Alan

In reply to Andy Moles:


Love to hear some of these Andy. I am continually updating the App version, which is the basis for the next print version, so any feedback now gets out there very quickly.

Thanks

Alan

In reply to tmawer:


People often say this but when it comes down to buying books they don't follow it through.

Pocket sized North Wales Classics Rockfax sells about 1 copy for every 10 copies of the bigger North Wales Climbs.

Peak pocket Rockfax books don't sell at all really but then again the crags aren't that big either. It wasn't the best idea I ever had that one.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

On a related topic. Any news on the android version? its been years now that some of us have been waiting

In reply to spartacus:

This may work but may prove bulky.

I like to be able to read about the descents, and check surrounding routes, as this will often be helpful on multi pitch. I think the move to larger than pocket size for multi pitch (eg Borrowdale) is a mistake.

In reply to BStar:

Definitive guides for all areas divided into 2 books. Up to HVS and VS and above. So I don't have to buy a book full of climbs that I will never do, but also don't have any recorded climbs missed out to save space for more E grade climbs!

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

We've been here before - your pocket guide to North Wales was in competition with the far more comprehensive Ground Up selected guide, which is also a pocketable size.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I'm not familiar with any of those guides (sorry!) but if the pocket sized Welsh guide contains the information as the larger copy then I'm surprised people prefer the larger one. For multi pitch, a guide I can easily carry seems to make so much more sense.....perhaps there's a 10 to 1 ratio of people doing single pitch rather than multi pitch, even in Wales?

In reply to John2:


Well the GU guide is not really pocket sized, but the drop in RF sales occurred when we published the bigger Rockfax book - the pocket book was doing okay before that.

Alan

In reply to cas smerdon:


Non-starter from a publishing point of view. Also, I am not convinced this is really what people want. I reckon most people like knowing about all the routes even if they can't do them.

Alan

In reply to edhawk21:


We are on it but there is still a lot to be done. It actually hasn't been a long as the iOS version was in preparation but then people weren't waiting for that.

I do appreciate that it us frustrating but it isn't because we are sat around not working on it. Martin is full time on the project, it just turns out to be a very complicated app we have built and it takes a lot of time with only one developer working on it.

I am reluctant to give a date yet though.

Alan

In reply to spartacus:



I bought a couple of coil (spring) bound guides in Austria last month (I know this isn't a true ring binding) and they are awful to handle. Pages come loose, the cover keeps coming adrift and they already look battered after just a few weeks use,

Chris

In reply to Andy Moles:


It sounds as though you might be unfamiliar with "Parois de Legende - les plus belles escalades d'Europe", a sister volume to the "autour du monde" edition.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Your jumbo sized guide also contained far more routes than your pocket sized one - perhaps people wanted the guide with the most routes in.

In reply to BStar:

A new definitive guide to the Outer Hebrides.

In reply to John2:


Yes I am sure that is it. People are prepared to pay more for the guidebook with the most routes in - that is not going to be the pocket-sized version. They also like big pictures and big photo-topos - again, not going to be pocket sized.

On this thread we have people asking for guidebooks to not omit obscure and forgotten routes from texts when they produce a new edition. We also have people suggesting that some selected guides don't have enough routes and then conversely we have people suggesting that the same selected route guides are too big to carry, and people asking for pocket-sized guides.

The problem we have is that there are just too many routes and print is not the best place to document it all any more. Online and app is where it is going to go.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Two volumes divided by grade might be OK if they had to be bought together...this could still have the advantage of reducing the size actually carried to the crag/on a climb. However perhaps one would also need a slim 3rd volume of topos to avoid repetition.....

In reply to Ian Parsons:

Isn't this out of print?

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Many older climbers do prefer the smaller size of guidebook that can be more easily carried in a pocket or on a harness. I have bought the new CC Bosigran guide, which has topos and is the same size as Rockfaxes, but I find I prefer to take the older, smaller guide because it is so much easier to carry.

In reply to John2:


I am not sure it is just older climbers, however they are significantly outnumbered by climbers who go for big books, and lots of routes when making their buying decisions.

The Rockfax app allows you to carry your entire guidebook collection, in something smaller than the smallest guidebook ever, in a device which many climbers are already carrying on longer routes anyway. Coupled with the other advantages like gps located maps, access to online comments, more frequently updated information, then the solution for those who want smaller guidebooks already exists. (Before anyone says, I know it is only in iOS so far but we are working on Android).

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:


In a form which is joyless, uninspiring, ranging from irritating to impossible to read and which you really, really don't want to be risking knocking about, let alone dropping. The future looks bleak........

In reply to galpinos:


Ah! I'm not sure - but quite possibly. Did the later 2011 edition replace the two earlier editions? In which case I take Andy's point; the 2011 edition seems to contain only a few more routes than the earlier Europe one, so presumably the European route tally is much reduced.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm guessing here, but correct me if I am wrong...

- You have never used the Rockfax app.
- You don't own a smart phone.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:



1/2 About par for 2 guesses!

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:



And many don't, for the obvious reasons of potential failure, device costs, difficulty to use one handed with gloves etc.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Regrettably I'm not a goatee bearded, polo neck wearing Apple fan.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I've never used the Rockfax app (waiting for Android), and do have a smart phone on which I've accessed route information. I find it hard to view at best, verging on impossible when part way up a route and trying to zoom in and out one-handed. I much prefer a small format guidebook which I can fit in a pocket.
I also realise that I'm in a shrinking minority on this - which is one of the reasons I finally succumbed to the inevitable and bought a modern phone.

In reply to BStar:

I want to os maps app 3d render all the cliffs as they do north face ben nevis, or maybe even in more detail. And I also want them to let us mark up topo lines as they do with 2d routes. Think I might email them if that's not too old fashioned.

the os maps app is good but doesn't behave well when out of data coverage, but none the less it would improve my life at work when I cant be bothered with ... well. .... work!

In reply to BStar:

I want to os maps app 3d render all the cliffs as they do north face ben nevis, or maybe even in more detail. And I also want them to let us mark up topo lines as they do with 2d routes. Think I might email them if that's not too old fashioned.

the os maps app is good but doesn't behave well when out of data coverage, but none the less it would improve my life at work when I cant be bothered with ... well. .... work!

In reply to Samuel Wainwright:


I'm disappointed Dan Bailey didn't do a Scottish Mountain Gullies and Chimneys book to complement his Ridges tome.

In reply to PCD:


There are lots of good scrambling books. Andrew Dempster's "Classic Mountain Scrambles in Scotland" is very good, if slightly too nice/big for carrying with you. "Scrambles in Lochaber" by Noel Williams is a great pocket-sized guide to the area. "Skye Scrambles" must be the definitive Cuillin guide for non-climbers. "Highland Scrambles North/South" have both had a lot of good reviews.

Bill O'Connor's "50 Best Scrambles in the Lake District" is, like the Andrew Dempster book above, a really nice hardback book and also very readable with lots of personal thoughts/anecdotes.

In reply to BStar:

Climb Yourself Fat - the guidebook of nice crags for a day out which have a lovely cafe/bakery/ice-cream van/chippy nearby or on the way home.

In reply to Ian Parsons:

Out of print or not, I did not know about it, only the global one. In any case, I want it!

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:


That's great, I can send a couple from memory but not everything as I don't have the book at the moment.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:




Get with the program dude - books are the new thing.

In reply to DerwentDiluted:


I'll do the Worcestershire chapter! Chance to highlight my hugely overlooked contributions to UK climbing on the obscure bits of Southstone, in its own right one of Britain's more obscure crags!

In reply to Andy Moles:


Any still advertised seem quite pricey so I'd suggest comparing content with the global edition before parting with a lot of cash; I'm now somewhat confused. The 2005 World Edition [no routes in Europe] and the 2006 Europe Edition contain 45 and 57 routes, respectively. This, on the Glenat website, http://montagne.glenatlivres.com/livre/parois-de-legende-9782723483285.htm suggests that the global edition contains about 60 routes; hence my earlier comment about the relative content. This, however, http://unevieagrimper.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/parois-de-legende.html tells a different story: 120 routes - ie most/all of the original content plus a few new ones. Both seem to be referring to the same book. So apologies if I've got you unnecessarily excited!

In reply to TobyA:


Ha! And you'd be welcome to it! A sneaky peek at your logbook tells me you just climbed Emily May, one of the few routes I have had the privilege to name.

In reply to kipper12:

Bit of a late response and no idea why you have got so many dislikes for this but there was one now out of print and seemingly completely forgotten. https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=884. It covered routes from Mod to HVS, sport and bouldering, aimed at novices although the bouldering went up to 6C for some reason. I've found it very useful due to it's wide coverage although their are annoyingly few routes in it, ridiculously large topos and pointless stuff on how to climb. However I think it's a great idea in theory and a re-release with more routes would give a good alternative to buying 2-3 or more other guides for people who don't live locally.

In reply to Andy Moles:

If you can understand a bit of German then "Im Extremen Fels" from Walter Pause does give a brilliant Alpine Rock hitlist, from right across the Alps. Ecrins in the West through to Spik in the East.

In reply to DerwentDiluted:


And a jolly nice little micro route it was too, to go with the nice name.

In reply to The Ivanator:


Would take out some: Nea, Grey Slab, The Mall (horrible imho), Agag's Wall but it's still a great list. There seems a generic problem: some classic VSs of yore are now HVS, e.g. Great Western and Overhanging Groove (both at Almscliff). In my mind, they're both three star VSs; guidebooks say otherwise. Both are of undying quality.

Maybe there's an argument for VS/HVS. For many people (and with modern pro) the gap is far less than it was. And it would let in stuff like Centurion (which I think is HVS - but haven't done it and may be wrong).

But the routes shouldn't be quotidian; they should all be exceptional.

Mick

P.S. If the south of Ireland is included, there's Prelude/Nightmare, Speir Bhean, Sarcophagus and arguably Scimitar Crack and Aisling Arete - just on one crag alone. And Byzantium and Ploughshare. Though, from memory, the latter seemed more like E1 5a than VS. (Mind you, it was 1969 and in big boots.) And probably Pis Fluich.

In reply to Mick Ward:



Seem to be a bloody huge gap for me! I don't think I've managed to lead an HVS this year, although I seem to be able to churn out VSs every time I go out.

In reply to Heike:


Not entirely sure what that was in reply to, but 'Extreme Alpine Rock' by Walter Pause and Jurgen Winkler appeared as an English publication/translation in 1979 (or so), and is a very nice book.

In reply to BStar:

The Top-roper's guide to Bank Holiday Crags

In reply to Mick Ward:

Interesting you mention Great Western and Overhanging.. they've both always been HVS in my climbing career (since the late 80s) and in my own very modest experience are almost the epitome of HVS. I absolutely love the idea of VS rock btw.

In reply to ian caton:




There is, to be fair, a lot of tottering choss as well - it's not one of these "acres of perfect granite slabs as far as the eyes can see" areas. But there does seem to be enough good stuff around to fill a decent English-language guidebook with punter-friendly climbs.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

I must have been lucky, or just using a decent French guide. Never come across any choss.

In reply to lummox:


If I remember correctly, they were both VS in the old (1969?) grit guide (the one with Austin on Beeline on the front cover). And I'm sure you're right - they probably are the epitome of HVS. But they'll both be more accessible now. For instance, each time I did Great Western, I put a sling on the top of that spike at the top of the corner and a moac in the crack, in case the sling slipped off. And that was that. Until the top. (Again, if I remember correctly.) Nowadays I'm guessing you can have a cam or two to start the traverse and again one or two when you've joined Western Front. And, because of steep climbing walls (vis a vis brick edge walls), people are stronger (rather than just having steel fingers). All of which would make things more accessible/friendly.

To me, these are 'VS type' routes - even if they are HVS! I suppose I think of Suicide Wall at Cratcliffe as the ultimate VS type route - even if it's HVS/E1 in reality. When I used to do Right Unconquerable with three runners (no cams) I had to approach it with an Extreme mindset. (It always felt a more demanding need than Left Unconquerable.) Now, with cams (please people, place these carefully), it must be more accessible/friendly.

I suppose I'm wondering whether, for pure quality, a best VS book would benefit from the inclusion of some HVS routes. OK it would make things a mite more demanding if people wanted to tick 'em all. But if they were carefully selected...?

Altar Crack would surely deserve inclusion - with a stern warning!

Mick

In reply to sheelba:

Yes, I was about to mention this. Looks like it's easy to find secondhand copies on Amazon et al.

In reply to Mick Ward:

That red Yorkshire Grit guide was my first guide book ! Obviously I don't have the benefit of doing the routes pre-Friends for which I'm very, very grateful ! I do get your point though. So many grit routes would have been far more committing back then and I can see how quite a broad spread of grades could be included in the VS book. As a (mostly) VS leading bumbly, the diversity of routes, climbing methods employed, situation and, for want of a better word, grandness of architecture at the grade means a book like that would be really popular IMHO.

Even when I had a bit of fitness I never fancied Altar Crack !

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Not entirely sure what that was in reply to, but 'Extreme Alpine Rock' by Walter Pause and Jurgen Winkler appeared as an English publication/translation in 1979 (or so), and is a very nice book.

My comment was in reply to Andy Moles saying...


The 1979 English version of Extreme Alpine Rock is a great book but almost every route seems to be described as grade V A0/A1. And of course several routes have changed radically or fallen down now.

There is a new version (in German only) which has been fully revised with current descriptions of the gear (including bolts on many of them and ab descents) which is what I was referring to - "I'm extreme fels" 2015 by Klein and Winkler.

In reply to Mick Ward:
From my valley-centric point of view (Wye Valley that is) something like Laughing Cavaliers would be in the same category - worth putting in because it's absolutely the sort of route to do when you are sound at VS and thinking of moving on.

I've been thinking about this a bit but without conclusion. I think the world needs VS Rock to be written
My crowd-source comment was semi-serious in terms of authoring and photographing the thing. Because it's such an accessible grade you don't need to recruit hot-shots to write about it (though I'd like to read Perrin, Dawes or Bullock on their favourites). Most climbers would probably have an affectionate tale of a VS route to tell.

Perhaps Vertebrate would like to have a go? Their production values seem pretty high as would suit a book with a high bar to reach.

In reply to Frank the Husky:
Carneddau - definitely!

In reply to BStar:
London Select: 500 Classic Boulder problems you can reach on The Tube.

In reply to pasbury:

Go for it! It's a huge, unplucked plum. As I said above, I don't know why Ken didn't get it finished. Maybe he had too much other stuff on his plate. Maybe it was when he went to Hodder and they weren't interested. Ken made very few real errors. He freely admitted not having Spillikin Ridge in Hard Rock and not having Right Angle in Classic Rock were omissions. But it's unfair to expect omniscience from anyone, no matter how talented and motivated.

It would be a great book to do in his memory. And it would give people so much pleasure.

I'd be happy to help out with writing and editing. But it needs somebody else to be the real driving force.

Go for it!

Mick

In reply to Heike:


Thanks for that: I didn't know about that book, and it sounds well worth seeking out.

In reply to BStar:

Urban Crack Climbs
A Buildering Guide to London
Top 50 Motorway Sidings
Classic Choss
... on a more serious note, perhaps a guidebook for Leicestershire.

In reply to BStar:

An up to date guidebook, in English, for the Picos de Europa.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

The pocket guide to North Wales is great, I use it as well as the CC guides. Any reason for omitting Gogarth?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

You mean you can remove a guidebook from your pocket, flick to the right page and hold it sufficiently open whilst scanning the info, all one handed? I'd argue that the phone version is much easier for this.. no dexterity needed other than 'tapping' on a device designed for use with one hand.

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Designed for use with one hand? If so, the design is crap. You think you can hold the phone and do that thing with two fingers to make the writing big enough to read one handed? While worried about dropping the thing?

Guidebooks are far, far easier to use on a route; keep the page you want turned back or with that ribbon thing in it and open.

In reply to Robert Durran:

A double tap usually zooms in to the width of text/images. I've never dropped my phone whilst climbing, much in the same way I've never dropped my nuts, cams, quickdraws etc..

In reply to ian caton:


Possibly you start by choosing a reputable climbing area and then climbing on the obvious solid crags, rather than picking somewhere that looks like a nice place anyway (Cauterets, most recently) and then checking the Ollivier guide to see what the obvious routes up the attractive local peaks are, only to find that they're normally either a) a walk b) made of biscuits or c) a walk made of biscuits.

But yeah, anyway, there definitely seems to be enough stuff around that a decent English language guide with a reasonable spread of grades would be appreciated.

In reply to BStar:

Another book that would be good:
Where To Climb In Europe.

Possibly two volumes, one for single pitch sport and bouldering, one for alpine, mountain and trad. But it'd basically be something like a compedium of crag tables for the most significant European climbing areas, interspersed with inspirational pictures, bumf about practicalities, where to base yourself and how to get around, writing about the history and character of each area and so on.

But the basic idea is that if I get interested in a trip to the Picos, say, or Romsdahl, or whatever, I can get an idea of where to stay, when to go, what the climbing is like, whether there's enough stuff that I can climb (that's accessible from a given base and climbable at that time of year) and generally get excited about the idea. I don't have to borrow a guidebook (or ask on here) before I can even decide whether I want to go.

In reply to Ramblin dave:
Pretty much exactly these ones:

http://www.climb-europe.com/rockclimbingshop/South-Eastern-Europe-Guidebook...
http://www.climb-europe.com/rockclimbingshop/South-Western-Europe-Guidebook...

I have these and the one that covers the Middle East too. No route descriptions, just overviews of areas, campsites, when to go etc. Nice little books to have on the shelf.

A northern Europe one would obviously fit the bill and complete the picture.

In reply to mrphilipoldham:


You are clearly more dextrous than the rest of us. Trying to do anything fiddly with gear one handed is a recipe for dropping it or banging it on the rock. Thing is with most gear is its not that expensive, its very strong and is very tolerant of being knocked or getting soaked and it doesn't need any charging.

The screen on my expensive work phone is shattered from a fall out of a pocket when sitting down - its in a case as well. As to double tapping it one handed wearing gloves - good luck with that !

In reply to mrphilipoldham:


Yes.


You can tap to zoom to the display width, but my eyes are not as young as they used to be and I can't read it at that magnification but need to scroll. And if it's sunny (happens occasionally) then I have trouble reading it at all due to the reflections.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Perhaps the best way to go would be a 'custom guide' facility whereby a fully comprehensive online 'guide' exists from which you can choose the info you want? You then simply tick what you want to appear in your printed guide then submit it for printing. So, for example you could select from the following to include:-
crag access description
individual topo photos
route name+grade+stars+symbols
route description
route line on topo
action shots of climbers on routes

Personally, I would choose necessary topos, all route names, all route lines, and just the descriptions for the climbs I'm likely to do for my local crags. If I pick an area for a foreign holiday I'd include the access descriptions as well. The ability to self-print on paper or order a blurb-type book or photobox-type ringbound thing would be useful. That way people can have a paper topo for a particular multipitch buttress with 4 routes on it to stuff in their pocket, or a whole book of their local area to keep at home, or a ring-bound thing of selected crags for a holiday. If my ability increases I can simply print out a page of previously undocumented route descriptions to add to my book.
I'm sure many climbers visit areas for business or other non-climbing purposes but won't spend enough time there to warrant buying a guide, this would be great for them.
Because guidebooks are such a personal preference thing (as you've noted), it makes sense to do something that allows personal guidebooks to be created.
As noted in recent threads, many guidebooks are priced out of the range of impulse purposes these days. It's got to be better to encourage some sort of guidebook purchase. A classic example would be the 'Sarca walls' quidebook for Arco multipitch. Many people going on a sport trip to Arco would like to do a multipitch or two in addition to all the single pitch they know they're going to do, however the majority of routes in the guide are hard or include aid, thus making it unjustifiable for a 6a climber. To be able to print out a 'mini guide' of 4 6a routes for a fiver ('two pints') would get a lot of buyers. If I'm on a rare business trip to the Peak district in summer I'd do an evening's bouldering but wouldn't buy a full guide - I would spend a fiver on a custom mini-guide though.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


Absolutely. If you zoom in enough to be able to read it (especially in bright light), you are then scanning back and forth and up and down all the time with your finger. It's hopeless.

In reply to Ramblin dave:
p.s.

There are close on "acres of perfect granite slabs" in Cavallers. Aiguestortes National Park.

Naturally it has a guidebook of its own.

But a guide to the Pyrenees is a bit like a guidebook for Wales.

In reply to Toerag:


That will almost certainly been on offer within the next 2 years, but only on the app.

Print on demand for something like this could be possible, but I reckon each book would cost £100 or more.

Alan

In reply to GrahamD:

Ah you see, now you've shifted the goalposts to winter climbing. Though I've had no problem taking pictures on winter routes on my mobile with gloves on. The wet leather finish on the fingers acts as an excellent skin replica to enable the touch function to still work

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

All fair and valid points, and perfectly suits the current dual format publishing!

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

I wear gloves in summer for belaying quite often or on easy long mountain routes when its cold. In any case why use a different system, winter, spring, summer, autumn when one system works in all cases ?

In reply to GrahamD:

My paper copy of the Chamonix sport climbs guidebook didn't work in all cases when it got thoroughly soaked..

In reply to BStar:

Updated Pennine Alps guides would be great. At the moment you either have to spend serious money on Swiss guides which contain only a few of the routes and almost no Alpine climbing or you spend even more serious money on a second hand copy of Valais Alps East. It's a stunning area, but the lack of modern English guidebooks is irritating. Valais Alps East might be my joint-favourite-ever guidebook (along with Scottish Winter Climbs) but it is pretty out of date and hardly eye-catching versus modern guides. Someone above mentioned a Rockfax Ecrins guide: there are plenty of decent ones in English language that are only a few years old. However, a Rockfax Pennine Alps guide I'd be super psyched for!

New guide for the Yorkshire Moors must be on the cards. There are hundreds of new routes and indeed crags there that no one knows about save for the odd E9 that gets in the news.

A guide for Alpine climbing in Italy. There's so much in Gran Paradiso and around that we Brits are really bad at exploring. Even the stuff up all the valleys off the Aosta valley are relatively poorly covered in the guides.

Would be great to have a guide which listed all the crags that locals in other countries love but which get no coverage here. Crags like Dave for example which is a proper big crag only a few hours from Calais and yet unheard of here. There must be tonnes of other examples.

In reply to Mr Fuller:


Franco's working on it between the odd E9 (sorry, H9)...

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

And your phone ? how well does that dry out ?

A new Lowland Outcrops would be nice too. Preferably with some huge new crags in if that can be arranged.

In reply to BStar:
Definitive Bouldering Guide to Alien 2 Pink and Black Spots problems, Volume 3 (2012-2017). I see this as a coffee-table format book with lots of photography.

In reply to GrahamD:

It’s still alive after numerous soakings with no ink splodges or unaesthetic creases. Occasionally it’ll think there’s headphones in when there aren’t if I get water in the headphone port but otherwise, pretty good!

In reply to Mick Ward:

Coming late to this thread, but have to echo the comments re VS rock. Whilst getting something published in print would be a large task, surely getting essays and illustrations onto a website must be possible? Still not easy I know but possible.

I'm no-one's idea of a professional editor, though I have it in my skill set from days past, but if I can lend a shoulder to the wheel I'd be happy to do so. Time isn't an issue as I'm retired.

T.

In reply to BStar:

I'ld like to see a definitive guide to Borrowdale

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

>

I think that would take away the whole point of it though.

In reply to BStar:

I'd like to see an Historical Guide Book. I realise this will never happen but...

The idea would be for such a guide to comprise sections based on (maybe) 10 year intervals. 1910 - 1920, for instance would have a few *** routes, one 'easy', one middle grade (whatever that'd mean), one 'hard' and one super-route - but all from that decade, based on reputation then & now. Do this x10 decades or more & the Historical Guide Book is complete.

Not read the whole thread, so this may have already been suggested.

A 'smart' guidebook that takes real-time weather information, your current location, ground conditions, your logbook, recent ascents etc. and puts all this into an algorithm than then suggests various crags or areas. Would be especially useful for winter climbing.

In reply to BStar:

Urban Crack Climbs is a serious one actually. Skills can be honed on any sort of cracks, would be good to see a book for that sorta stuff.
Also, f*ck the guidebook app thing. Can't afford to drop you phone, evem if its a cheap one. Too useful a tool in life to risk breaking / losing.
How about a Hard Rock with all the shit routes like Malbogies filtered out?

In reply to Martin Bagshaw:


There probably are books available for that sort of thing if you look hard enough

In reply to Andy Moles:
Same with the Dolomites rockfax. Useful for where to park etc, inspiring but not a serious guidebook.

We just cut the pages out to take on the climb.

The photo Topo doesn't work on low Res pictures and on long routes where the top pitches are incredibly foreshortened.

But the lines marked are often, if not always, way out. The descriptions only understandable with hindsight.

In reply to ian caton:



As I said to Andy, it would be really useful if you could let us know which lines were out and where they actually were wrong. That we we can improve the information in the app and future editions.


Is this because you think a description isn't enough on its own, or do you think our descriptions are not detailed enough? If the latter then do you know of specific examples on routes you did where other books have sufficient descriptions?

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Not used the Rockfax app (Android user). For long alpine rock routes I'd love to use an app that provided individuals shots of each pitch (or several pitches) that I could swipe through as well as an overall topo of the route. Surely possible with drones. That would offer something that a conventional guidebook couldn't practically offer. Would be a more phone friendly format for me as well and would likely need a lot less descriptive text. Might be overkill for some routes but very useful where route-finding becomes harder. Resolution always seems to be the limiting factor when trying to squeeze long routes into a single topo. With current full topo formats it often seems to be the case of relying a little more on ones own route-finding abilities as routes get longer (useful skill be have of course).

In reply to BStar:

There seems to be a lot of people on here who have a problem using a phone on a route. I do love having a real book rather than phone pics to browse at home and on the way to the crag, but I hate carrying one on a route. I can't really see how a phone would be such a problem. How often do you actually have to look at the topo whist mid lead? If this does happen just shout down to your belayer, who can lock you off and check their phone no? If you're looking at the phone on the belay just don't drop it! If you're that clumsy just get a cheap case with a lanyard attached. That way you can get that fat guidebook with loads of routes and not have to carry a tome with you.

As for those who said that zooming in never gets the same detail, I don't think that's true at all (maybe increase the brightness on your phone?!). Even if it is true now, it won't be for long. With the high detail images available now zoom detail is incredible. Have you seen that website with the zoomable pic of stanage and scafell? Imagine that image for one route, you could practically check the holds!

If you really hate looking at a phone to check a route (as some people above seem to, fair enough I guess) get the app tinyscanner - converts a pic on your phone to pdf, it's free and good quality. Use it to print any routes you might wanna do rather than ripping pages out or faffing with a scanner.

In reply to BStar:

As for a guidebook I'd like to see - an up to date sea stack guide to the uk, complete photos/topos of all stacks.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
I buy the guidebooks you write them, not me.

Once we started using the Mauro Bernardi books, all became clear. His topos are stunningly good, but you need rockfax to work out where it is!

I don't think the rockfax format for those types of long routes works, period. It would scare me to death going somewhere serious like the south face of the Marmolada with it. There wasn't one route we did where the description was bang on. If it was just an exception , yes I would tell you.

This might seem a bit harsh but when you have been frightened and lost, because the guidebook is plain wrong, it's a way of having a pop back.

I am not saying don't buy the Dolomites rockfax, it is very useful, but you need a guidebook to go with it.

Your early sports guides had topos as well as photos! Topos for big routes, the only way to go.

It's a serious business writing a guidebook for big mountain routes, it needs to be right.