UKC

How was Careless Torque first climbed?

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 James Oswald 03 Jan 2009
Did Ron use mats? And did he TR it first?
James
 Liam Copley 03 Jan 2009
In reply to james oswald: i saw Pete Robins working it the other day with mats. But i guess that odesn't help you. Lol
 JSA 03 Jan 2009
In reply to james oswald:

it was the friction co-efficient, you would understand that statement if you've ever seen him!
 Simon 03 Jan 2009
In reply to james oswald:


James do you have guidebooks to the area?

It will help you with your questions to get the BMC guides!

si
 Dan Lane 03 Jan 2009
In reply to james oswald:

Pete robins was doing it ground up without TRing it.

And he gave us a queer look in the car park!

Dan
 MorganPreece 05 Jan 2009
In reply to james oswald: TR!!!! im sure!!!!
Ben Brasby did first Ground Up!!!
In reply to MorganPreecey:

> TR!!!! im sure!!!!
> Ben Brasby did first Ground Up!!!

You've just come out with two statements, neither of whihc are actually correct, why did you do that?
 JSA 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Tyler:

you've come out with a statement without anything to back it up, why did you do that?
In reply to the inspiral carpet:

'Everyone' knows Ron didn't top-rope it first, and practised for it by jumping off NTBTA. Without mats. It even says so in the guidebook.

jcm
 Al Evans 05 Jan 2009
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: It was 22 years ago, did anybody actually have bouldering mats then?
 andy 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously) It was 22 years ago, did anybody actually have bouldering mats then?

Yes - I believe they could also be used for wiping up spilt beer at that time. I was sponsored by Hartley's.
 Al Evans 05 Jan 2009
In reply to andy: Errr, it was a serious point, I think you are getting confused with beer mats, easily done, but there are youngsters posting on here who will believe you.
 seagull 05 Jan 2009
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to the inspiral carpet)
>
> 'Everyone' knows Ron didn't top-rope it first, and practised for it by jumping off NTBTA. Without mats. It even says so in the guidebook.
>
> jcm

Ron practiced for it by jumping off NTBTA - correct.

Ron didn't top rope it - incorrect.

The two statements are not mutually exclusive. He obviously had no mats as they didn't exist then, hence wanting to test the fall from a decent height.

Rich Simpson did the first GU ascent AFAIK followed by Andy Earl.
 Al Evans 05 Jan 2009
In reply to seagull: Where did you get the info that Ron top roped it from? I agree the statements are not mutually exclusive but equally they are not mutually inclusive?
 seagull 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Al Evans:

If he had done it ground up then why would there have been a big deal about the first ground up ascent? It would also have been completely out of context from the way he did most of his hard grit first ascents, way ahead of it's time etc etc etc. It may have been abseil inspection rather than a top rope but I know he practiced the moves. It was common knowledge at the time, reported in the mags IIRC.
 andy 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to andy) Errr, it was a serious point, I think you are getting confused with beer mats, easily done, but there are youngsters posting on here who will believe you.

Yes Al. Very sorry. A frivolous post in response to a very important point. Remember kids - listen to Uncle Alan - there were no, repeat no, bouldering mats 22 years ago.

Hope that's cleared up any confusion.
 Al Evans 05 Jan 2009
In reply to seagull: So it turns out you are making an assumption based on probability but no actual fact that says he top roped it as you stated. Looking at the moves whilst brushing a route is inevitable, you can't avoid it. The ground ups following did not have to do that because it was already cleaned and established as possible for them.

 andy 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Al Evans: I just used to use Bob.
 Al Evans 05 Jan 2009
In reply to andy: Sorry deleted befor you replied, I did say that enough beer mats would probably work,and that stuntmen used to use cardboard boxes before air bags were invented I deleted so I could add that an old car seat from an abandoned car that sat at the foot of the embankment was used as a mat for Scritto's Republic.
 sutty 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Al Evans:

>Looking at the moves whilst brushing a route is inevitable, you can't avoid it.

You don't half get wound up at times Al, of course you can avoid looking at the moves, let someone else clean it for you. That is what I used to do in the past, even on what may end up as severe or E1.

I suppose it would not be possible to actually ask Ron now he is so far away. After all, nobody sees him climbing or running do they?
 Al Evans 05 Jan 2009
In reply to sutty: Yep myself and Jim used to do that, but Ron spent a lot of time on his own prowling round the plantation. BTW, I am not wound up, why if I make a point is it being wound up? I think the post I'm replying to was a lot more wound up sounding.
steve webster 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Al Evans:
the story i heard was he made a handle out of a 6inch lump of pipe and practiced one handed pull downs on a lat machine so he could build the strength for the wide pinches on the arete.which sort implies he might have tried the odd move or two.
 seagull 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Al Evans:

Don't get your knickers in a twist. I'm not wound up, merely pointing out that it has always been common knowledge that Ron practiced the moves on Careless Torque on a rope. It really doesn't matter whether it was on abseil or top rope to me. Same difference.
In reply to seagull: Didn't John Welford do it Ground Up first followed by Simpson and Earl?
 Graeme Hammond 05 Jan 2009
In reply to north country boy:

from ukc news march 2006

Mar 6: Rich Simpson Ground-Ups Careless Torque
by Mick Ryan

Careless Torque
Rich Simpson has shown that he is no slouch when it comes to hard highball bouldering. Rich confirmed to UKClimbing.com this morning that he made the sixth ascent of Ron Fawcett's 1987 testpiece Careless Torque (Font 8a+.....E6/7 7a) on Sunday, but in traditional bouldering style, ground-up, without any pre-practice of the final gripping moves. This 'ropeless ascent' was hot on the heels of John Welford's recent ascent of this arete on the Not To Be Taken Away boulder at Stanage. All previous ascents have made use of a rope to practice the finishing moves.

Rich pointed out this distinction in an email to UKClimbing.com, "No real details since its nowhere near cutting edge. It was climbed like I climb the majority of boulder problems, ground up. Can't say much more, am going to Spain tommorrow for 2 weeks so have alot to do."

 Graeme Hammond 05 Jan 2009
In reply to north country boy:

and

Feb 13: Grit Update
by Mick Ryan

Tyler Landman, the Ace © Alex Messenger
You can't beat cold conditions on the grit, the crisp days of winter giving optimum conditions for hanging those beautiful slopers and smearing rubber on non-existent foot holds.

In 2001 Malcom Smith repeated both Ron Fawcett's 1987 testpiece Careless Torque (E6/7 7a, Font 8a+), the arete on the Not To Be Taken Away boulder at Stanage and then went on to repeat Jerry Moffat's Ace Font 8b (V13) the sit down start to the Joker also at the Stanage Plantation. Both these problems (climbs!) have had repeats in the last two weeks.


First grit guru John Welford made the fifth ascent of Careless Torque and like all previous four ascents it was after practicing the highball finishing moves. Then 15 year old Tyler Landman made an impressive ascent of the Ace. Irish Si reports on ukbouldering.com that, "15, yes you heard it 15 year old Tyler Landman has made an impressive repeat of the Ace 8B at the plantation. After very nearly doing it in a session it finally took him 3/4 sessions, which is very impressive indeed, considering how long it took Malc and Ben. Waddage! "

 Graeme Hammond 05 Jan 2009
In reply to north country boy:

so it would seem no, the current guide only lists simpson and earl as having done in ground up in the first accents section
In reply to Graeme Hammond: I stand corrected.

Its had at least 3 more ground up ascents since Earl and Simpson.
 Al Evans 05 Jan 2009
In reply to seagull: Its not the same, and Steve, I never said Ron hadn't practised the moves, just that nobody seems to have proof that he top roped it, I'm sure Ron would tell you if you asked him.
steve webster 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Al Evans:
shades of grey al
 Al Evans 05 Jan 2009
In reply to steve webster:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> shades of grey al

Yep theres nearly black and nearly white and all shades in between, but no amount of swinging on an ab rope gives you the insight that a top rope ascent does at how to piece the moves together.
 Michael Ryan 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to seagull) Its not the same, and Steve, I never said Ron hadn't practised the moves, just that nobody seems to have proof that he top roped it, I'm sure Ron would tell you if you asked him.

His forthcoming biog may give the real deal. Colin Wells is ghost writing it. Also Ron is being interviewed at the next ShAFF by Ed Douglas.

Feb 16: Andy Earl Climbs Careless Torque..Onsight of course
by Mick Ryan


When big Ron Fawcett climbed the first ascent of Careless Torque in 1987 at the Stanage Plantation (Derbyshire), bouldering mats were unheard of. Ron psyched himself up for the final moves of this distinct arete by jumping from increasing heights off the neighbouring classic Not To Be Taken Away...just to convice himself that he would actually walk away unscathed (this is known as 'old style' or 'old skool')
Since them most ascents have utilised a top rope to practice the high and hard last moves, headpoint style. Now with the advent of huge mattresses that you can strap on your back and carry to the crag and position at the bottom of your chosen route or problem make what once seemed unfeasible to boulder (or solo!), whilst not common place, at least more frequent.

And bouldering mats are getting bigger and bigger. One of the biggest is made by Revolution Climbing in the USA, and is called the 12 gauge (see one here). The Climbing Works have one and on Valentines day loaned it to Andy Earl for an attempt on Careless Torque, which an earlier ascensionist, Malcom Smith thought to be Font 8a or V11.

Andy reports on his blog (link),

"Yesterday morning I set off to Sheffield with the hope to climb outside but the Met office painted a wet and wind picture so the Climbing Works was looking like the venue.

Almost at Sheffield, with a blue sky and it was not too warm. Maybe it was going to be the day for Careless Torque, Gaz (Parry), Percy (Bishton) , the pads and myself were off on one. After a brief warm up Percy lowered down and chalked the top grips, it was on. Second go I found myself stood up and going for the top moves that turn out to be not so bad and then found myself standing on the top of one of the best blocs in the peak.

Done Careless Torque ground up pretty happy."

Earl and Parry (who just got a fine ascent of Karma, Font 8a or V11, at Fontainbleau...see his blog here ) then went on to do the crazy jump of Big Air (E6 6b) described as, "Bizarre but superb moves. Leap the crevasse for the beckoning square hold and mantel a way to glory. Not a boulder problem! "

It seems that bouldering mats, and what they allow modern climbers to do, climb hard and high without pre-practice (onsight and ground up) are now an integral part of traditional climbing, as much so as heapointing.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=2&year=2007#n33955

 Michael Ryan 05 Jan 2009
In reply to james oswald:

A good skill is to use the search function on the news page....

Go here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

Then Search news.

Also use the search function top right in the menu bar.

Mick
 UKB Shark 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Al Evans:

Lock off ab rope. Climb last last couple of scary moves and repeat until comfortable. No real difference to top roping as far as this route goes.

But - with no mats and at the time he did it Careless Torque was stunning. Didnt Le menestral say something to the effect that if anyone had claimed it but Ron it would have been doubted.
 UKB Shark 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Ned Feehally also ground upped it:

http://www.bigstone.co.uk/view/News_Blog/2008/11/24/
 BrianT 05 Jan 2009
In reply to james oswald: Ron is giving a live interview onstage at ShAFF next month. Come along and ask him!
 craig d 05 Jan 2009
In reply to BrianT:

I am sure Ron abbed it and practised moves, like he did with Masters Edge. How many of the moves he practised I do not know, but certain that he did not top rope it or do it ground up. It was a massively impressive achievement, ahead of its time, and still is a stunning and compelling line.
 Al Evans 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Thank you Mick.
 Simon 05 Jan 2009
In reply to sutty:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>

> I suppose it would not be possible to actually ask Ron now he is so far away. After all, nobody sees him climbing or running do they?



not many!
 Adam Long 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Al Evans:

I have spoken to Ron about this. He practised the top moves from the safety of a rope. I don't know whether this involved a belayer though.

His special wide pinch training would have been for the start, the hold in question can be reached from the ground by the tall and is used for the left hand throughout the start which is worth 8a in its own right. I've also heard a rumour Ron started on the block on the left, this isn't true.

Welford did top-rope it, and almost put himself off in the process.

Claimed ascents as far as I can recall;

Ron Fawcett '87
John Dunne mid nineties
Malcolm Smith '01
Andy Brown early '00s
John Welford
....all pre-practised

Rich Simpson
Andy Earl
Ryan Pasquill
Ned Feehally
Mike Adams
...all ground-up
In reply to Adam L:

I thought JD eventually only claimed to have top-roped it, although I did rather lose track of that debate.

Yes, sorry, I was foolishly extrapolating from what the guidebook says higher up; actually it doesn't suggest he did or didn't practise on a rope.

jcm
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

>When big Ron Fawcett climbed the first ascent of Careless Torque in 1987 at the Stanage Plantation (Derbyshire), bouldering mats were unheard of

Production bouldering mats certainly, but carrying mattresses up to the crag wasn't....

jcm
OP James Oswald 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I did and didn't really find the answer to my question.
James
 craig d 05 Jan 2009
In reply to Adam L:

The Aussie bloke who did Parthian by headtorch did it ground up as well. Can't remember his name.
 Simon 05 Jan 2009
In reply to craig d:


Ben Cossey
 gallam1 05 Jan 2009
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> Production bouldering mats certainly, but carrying mattresses up to the crag wasn't....
>
> jcm

and sneaky judo mats were quite popular and surprisingly effective
 Michael Ryan 05 Jan 2009
In reply to james oswald:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> I did and didn't really find the answer to my question.
> James

Looks like you have now.

 Al Evans 06 Jan 2009
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> Production bouldering mats certainly, but carrying mattresses up to the crag wasn't....
>
> jcm

Good God, can you imagine the piss taking if you did that?
 JSA 06 Jan 2009
In reply to Al Evans:

iirc Airlie Anderson used matresses for her ascent of Masters Edge
 Al Evans 06 Jan 2009
In reply to the inspiral carpet: I was thinking in 1987!
 Adam Long 06 Jan 2009
In reply to craig d:

nice one craig, knew I'd forgotten someone....
 MorganPreece 06 Jan 2009
In reply to Tyler: Looks if ur wrong, why did u do that !!!
In reply to Al Evans:

Didn't someone do Scritto's with the back seat of a car as aid round about then?

jcm
 Al Evans 07 Jan 2009
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Isn't that what I said above?
 Al Evans 07 Jan 2009
In reply to Al Evans: Strange my post has dissapeared?

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