UKC

Whilst following the excellent thread on Barry Brewster last week I was reminded,, by the comments of some of the more senior posters, of just how precarious it was getting into climbing back in the late 1960`s when I started. Most of us were largely self taught and instructional information was virtually non-existant.Equipment was unobtainable, inadequate or just too damn expensive.
I remember setting out on the Milestone Butress circa 1967 with a ridged hemp rope,(tied around the waist) a pair of Woolies pumps, a miners helmet, 4 or 5 heavy nylon slings and half a dozen ex WD steel carabiners.
A second hand copy of Alan Blackshaws excelent bible provided confusing information which probably just about kept us alive.True adventure.
The old adage that "the leader must not fall" kept us alive then, and stays,almost religiously, with me still.

In reply to rodgit:
Very true, and I reckon there's a great artcle/series/book to be written about those days. It might convey the sense of adventure, without being to 'GOM'-y !!!

In reply to rodgit: Good: lots of new routes to be discovered by those with the vision. Bad: leads must have been terrifying....

In reply to rodgit: its incredibly interesting reading the bitd threads on supertopo. I think people were just harder way back when

In reply to rodgit: I started in 1964 and after seeing the interest people showed in "the good old days" I am seriously considering starting a web page/blog on that very topic so I'm currently trying to blag a few old photos and slides from friends. Surprisingly there does appear to be an interest in this subject.

Al

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

A great idea Al: I've got a few sent to me when I was CC Editor. Would need to contact the individuals concerned for permission etc.

I followed the BB thread with a great deal of interest, and quite apart from the epic but poignant quality of the Eiger story, the true story of the FFA of Vulcan emerged. There must be many similar that have somehow slipped through the net over the years.

I also think that it reinforces the importance of the historical record that is still very much a feature of the definitive guides. How long this will continue given the sheer volume of routes, the necessity for detailed topo diagrams, action photos and the rising costs of paper publishing is hard to tell, but an electronically archived record would be fascinating.

In reply to rodgit: My first route was 69' on Windgather, bendy walking boots, an old AGV helmet, a hawser rope tied around the waist, steel crabs which you'd now use to anchor a submarine, 2 thick woollen sweaters which weighed around 4 stone when wet.

It was drizzling and cold - numb fingers all day - trying to jam, love at first bite. Went back 2 days later and lead my first route - no runners because I hadn't figured out how to place them properly...lol.

In reply to rodgit:

Precarious or straightforward? Or both!

In reply to Iain Peters: I think my "history" will be a little more mundane than some of those stories although I do have one or two hair raising tales to tell. I was no slouch, climbing stuff that gets E3 by todays standards, but I was certainly not A team and not part of the "In Crowd" Who knows though writing stuff down may bring back some interesting accounts. Climbing stuff like Slanting Slab and Bloody Slab in the late 60's and early 70's whilst by no means outstanding was, I like to think, at least notable as being above the average.

One of my sources for photos will be KS the Consort of our esteemed President who I have known for over 40 years.

Al

In reply to Hannes:

I couldn't agree more, though rightly or wrongly I get the impression that the audience is maybe more appreciative over there. True, the Brewster thread was well appreciated, but I think it's telling that so many people actually thanked JCM for starting it, that that in itself shows that there are fewer of these sort of threads here. I wonder if that's due to the older members not wanting to be labelled as old farts - it would certainly be a shame if that was the case. Or if it's because the SuperTopo older members were often the leading climbers of their day - like John Long, Tom Higgins etc etc. Certainly the Brewster thread was elevated by the participation of the likes of Frank Cannings, Colin Goodey and of course (with L plates) Chris Bonington.

Along with requests for a Ski Mountaineering forum and Trip reports, I'm sure Alan would go into meltdown with the thought of an Historical Forum...

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
I think there would be a good deal of interest, Al.
The "good old days" really demarcate into phases, I think.
60s and before - crap gear and sketchy info
70s gear getting better and fairly good info
80s more of the 70s
90s gear getting quite good and the information getting to be extensive
Current century - more information than is really good for us (2011 UKC post - "I'm on the crux of death route x - can someone tell me where the holds and protection are?"

And then of course there's the true explorers prior to WWII. But even you, Al, don't remember that!

In reply to Jim at Work:

I'm hoping that my forthcoming book: 'Fiva: An Adventure That Went Wrong', which will be published next March (yes, sorry, still a long way off ... these things take time!) will fit the bill. It's set in 1969 and written in the first person present tense i.e. recreates an epic exactly as I experienced it at the age of 19. I'll be putting further details up on my web site about it shortly.

In reply to JTM:
I think there's also the element that the US, at least in the 70s and early 80s, was about 10 years behind Europe in terms of resources (info and gear). So their "really old stuff" is still quite recent.
And they still have unbelievable scope for new routing/exploration. Not quite as good as Africa, but still quite impressive, which feeds into the desire that the current generation has to go exploring.

Although they have zip in the way of holidays compared to europeans, so I've no idea how they do it.
Although, come to think of it, the dumpsters behind McDos and other fine eating establishment probably keep quite a few people going....
-----
I'll look forward to your book, Gordon!

In reply to pneame:
50s and before - crap gear and sketchy info
60s - 70s gear getting better and fairly good info

Wouldn't want to start an argument!

In reply to rodgit:


Sorry, but this is simply not true, except for the self taught bit which I'd say was more of an advantage than not. I started in 1968 and all the equipment you needed was available, at the YHA shop in London for example, or for expedition stuff at Lawrie's off the Edgware road... even wolverine trimmed parkas, made to measure boots - they were expensive obviously but pre-made boots weren't and they were good for climbing. PAs, EBs, RDs, Masters (cheap) climbing shoes were freely available... as were nuts, perlon ropes, all you needed really. Obviously more fancy stuff is available now, especially for ice-climbing, although front point crampons by Grivel and Salewa were on sale in Britain.

As for "instructional material" there were plenty of books around, and quite a few clubs too.... maybe you should have looked around a bit more What you say may have been the case 10 years before, although climbing shoes were already there I think, but it certainly wasn't in 1968.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: That may be the case in London Bruce but news, information and equipment weren't readily available in other areas. I saw PA's in the late-sixties but those who had them bought them abroad and climbers who went abroad back then were in the minority. Places like Blacks sold some equipment, tents boots, jackets etc. but the first proper climbing shop I knew of was Tanky Stokes in Sheffield. Not sure when he opened but it was the latter half of the sixties when I became aware of him. I think.

Al

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

I'm inclined to agree with you. It was all relatively much more difficult then. I lived in Knebworth in Hertfordshire, and the nearest equipment shops (just two in London) were Blacks (in Grays Inn Road, I think) and YHA off Charing X Road. Getting there was quite a big and costly deal. We tended to favour the YHA, because it had the bonus of being run by enthusiast extraordinaire, Tony Wilmot.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
My first route was in '66. Hawser laid ropes, waist tie-in and 'specialist kit' was a hawser laid sling with 6 whitworth nuts threaded onto it. Steel krabs. Pumps or klets (for the afficionados) on the feet. BUT between '66 and the end of the decade there WAS a sort of mini explosion. Hemp waistlines! Custom made alloy nuts! Brass mini hexes! I even think I saw the first attempt at wired nuts by '70? And I think the first Compton helmets were about by '68/'69? I have vague meories of the term 'perlon' but most of the folks I climbed with aspired to 'kernmantel'.

Bruce - wolverine trimmed parkas - nice as they sound - are scarcely climbing kit! EB's were around when I started but rare as were RD's (still have a pair somewhere - bombproof! Masters came later I think - as did Gollies etc

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
In Liverpool, I think Brighams opened in ~1970. Certainly in 1969, as I recall, there was only Blacks - a singularly useless shop although you could get the basics (Blacks Mountain Tents - always wanted one until I realised how dated they were) with very little advice.

Of course, I couldn't afford much, so maybe I never actually asked for advice....

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Yes, perhaps being in London more was available, but the YHA shop, near Charing Cross, was like an Alladin's cave... we used to spend ages there. The only problem was we didn't have much money. In 1969 we sent to Chamonix and Snell's and many others had even more stuff.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Strange to think that I might have been in that Aladdin's cave at the same time as you, in 1968-69 ...

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Pretty sure there were P.A.'s and possibly even R.D.'s in Brighams's late 60's catalogues. And, of course, the Kletts which I bought.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Maybe, Tony Wilmott was already there and his party piece was showing how flimsy the gates on Pierre Alain crabs were by pushing them out sideways with his thumb. I said perlon because that's what the people I climbed with - a university club - called it, smooth like modern ropes, as opposed to hawser layed nylon rope which we still used, but didn't like much as it was easy to tangle. I've still got a pair of ropes from the time... I'd climb on them but no one else will I use them for dangling off when working on buildings. My first rock shoes were Masters so they were available in 68... they were cheaper than the imported shoes, perhaps not quite so good but good enough for a beginner - a fairly narrow fit so not for everyone.

I got my Lawries boots for the Alps in 69. Mr and Mrs Lawrie had their shop in what looked like a private house, and were both getting on for 80. They brought you a cup of tea while trying on boots and you could try them out on their marble fire-place... more gentlemanly times. They supplied the first Everest expedition (I think) and the wolverine trimmed parkas were for polar trips, maybe mountaineering in Greenland... just something that stuck in my memory, I think it was their price that impressed me too.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Anyone mentioned Hawkins Rockhoppers yet?

I've watched in awe - and amusement - as people tried to climb in these. Sticky rubber? I give you polished glass-like rubber.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Birmingham too. We had Blacks, Tebbit's and the Mountain Shop, though I can't remember if the latter was there before 1970. Ian Parsons will know. Blacks didn't have a vast range of stuff, but I remember buying some extremely heavy HIATT krabs there. Probably my Masters came from there too. Tebbit's was owned and run by the very opinionated and unpleasant Sandy Tebbit. I went there one summer's day to buy an ice axe, only to find there were none in stock. The Lord and Master was serving me and at the mention of ice axe, he roared with laughter and invited everyone in the shop to gather round and view the cretin that wanted to buy an ice axe in mid summer. I said somewhat sheepishly that I believed that there was snow in the Alps - glaciers even - and left rather humiliated never to return, and bought my axe elsewhere.

In reply to rodgit: I had a pair of boots before EB's. They weren't PA's, Masters or RD's but I cannot for the life of me think what they might have been. Anyone got any ideas? They were similar to Masters but the soles on Masters looked almost like a separate addition stuck on afterwards.

Al

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
The heyday of Masters Boots was the early sixties. They were a (pretty successful) attempt at a British version of PAs, which were quite difficult to get for a while. After the debacle of the alloy krabs destroyed Pierre Alain's business, he sold the boot patent to Emille Bronneau, who modified it slightly for Anglo-Saxon feet. The EB came out in (I think) 1966 and dominated the market until Boreal came in with sticky rubber in 1981.
Protection gear was pretty sophisticated by 1970 - kernmantel ropes, tape slings, nuts on wire, all well-established.
It may have been dangerous but it didn't feel it. Falling off was taken just as lightly as today. Peg runners were much more common, in fact you could tell when you'd reached the crux from the peg left in place on the first ascent.
All that remained to come into general use were harnesses, belay devices (both invented in sixties but slow to be accepted) and SLCDs (late seventies). As has been pointed out in another recent thread, everything since then, sticky rubber included, has been just tweaks.

In reply to JTM:
I was Nottingham based. We had Blacks for 'everything' and around that time Roger Turner opened his shop as well. Be interesting to look at the surge of independent climbing retailers!

In reply to Bulls Crack:
my first were Hawkins rock hoppers and i still have the original box upstairs...the soles were like bits of lino.

In reply to rodgit: Did you wear an onion on your belt, as was the style at the time?

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
See Alan Blackshaw Mountaineering (1965) pages 164 & 165 showing: PA's, Masters, Brigham Mk III, Lawrie Rock-Climber and kletterschuhe. Was it any of these?

In reply to Anonymous:

You'll be Keith then

In reply to Anonymous: No. My memory could be playing tricks, it does that these days. Perhaps my first boots were EB's. If they were introduced here in 1966 that's possible.

Al

In reply to JTM: I think that sort of attitude is still common in climbing shops. Buying a sleeping bag 'I want a sleeping bag for about £100'. 'No you don't.' 'I want to buy a BD head torch.' 'No you don't.' Etc.

Birmingham had the Climbers shop in Colmore circus which is where I used to catch the train, once a summer, to blow my hard earned holiday money on some piece of kit - a pair of Terray Fitzroys for £12.19.6 that were half a size too small and crippled me for the next few years until I finally saw the light; a stubai peg hammer; and the highlight, a Terray Fitzroy duvet, reduced from £30 to £18. I had to borrow the money off my mum and told her it would save me from dying from exposure; it may even have done so.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Yes, we called it perlon too, simply because that was what it was called then ('69), commercially, at the YHA store and elsewhere!

>I've still got a pair of ropes from the time... I'd climb on them but no one else will I use them for dangling off when working on buildings. My first rock shoes were Masters so they were available in 68... they were cheaper than the imported shoes, perhaps not quite so good but good enough for a beginner - a fairly narrow fit so not for everyone.

Yes, our first shoes were Masters, and they were excruciatingly uncomfortable if you had a wide foot, as I did. They were massively inferior to EBs which became widely available in London and UK in about 1971, I think.

Somehow I never got to the famous Lawrie shop, but heard quite a lot about it.

In reply to Andy Long:

Adam, EBs were virtually impossible to get in UK (well, London and the SE) in c. 1967-70. I think then that someone else, like Ellis Brighams, started importing them in about 1971 and then we could all get them.


No. It was very unsophisticated. You made your own tape slings with tape knots, which became dangerously loose very easily and had to be re-checked virtually before every single climb. The nuts on wire were atrocious by modern standards, the wire being so stiff that all but the most bomber/firmly jammed placement typically popped out with any jerk on the rope. Typically about 3 out of 5 nuts on wire that you placed fell out on every pitch.


Really? Not really.

>Peg runners were much more common, in fact you could tell when you'd reached the crux from the peg left in place on the first ascent.

True


All? Those were huge advances, the belay plate being arguably the biggest advance in safety in the whole history of rock climbing. Sticky rubber was quite a huge further revolution, I submit.

PS. Are you by any chance the Andy Long I once climbed with in Chamonix (on the Peigne) in 1972??

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I never went to Lawries but I had a copy of their catalogue which was a treasured posession for a long time. It was quite an expensively produced publication, but apart from his boots, lovingly described, filled with an almost random collection of gear; from stuff that Whymper would have recognised - candle lanterns, Aschenbrenner walking axes - to new fangled stuff like Zdarsy sacks and hiatt crabs.

I remember a few years ago that after his death Lawrie's dependents were in very straightened circumstances and a fund was set up for them.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:


Maybe this is the shop I referred to as the Mountain Shop? It belonged to Frank Davies, so I think you are right...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
>

Yes I am Gordon.

I wasn't implying that belay devices weren't important, merely that they hadn't come into general use. Early wired nuts may seem crude but compared to what we had before they were a revelation.
Most of mine seemed to stay in...

I'd venture that the most important technical development in climbing history, bar none, was the arrival of nylon ropes.

In reply to Andy Long:

Wow. Yet another example of why people not posting anonymously on the internet is such a good thing.

All that just seems aeons ago to me, now ... Probably does to you.

In reply to Richard Smith:

Richard, The training book I was referring to is called Mountaineering from Hill Walking to Alpine Clinbing by Alan Blackshaw, and it was an amazing publication for its day ( published in 1965). It was the crammed with the stuff of dreams for a young lad like me in those formative years.
Definately worth a look for anyone who is interested in climing development, and still available at Amazon for a few shillings!
Rodgit

In reply to Jim at Work:


Oddly enough, I sent an article entitled 'The Golden Age of British Climbing' to the powers that be on this very site, a while ago. (Obviously I'm not making any claims for quality!)

Despite a polite follow-up enquiry, I've not heard anything and I certainly don't want to pester them. So it might appear and, equally, it might not.

Mick

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Ah... Tony - now there's a thread in itself! I first bumped into Tony in Bergen, when about to hitch to Tromso (5 days that took...) and he was off to I think, the Troll wall, with John Kingston & Nipper and others. There's a lot of untold history out there. Keep it coming.

In reply to Mick Ward:


That'll be the 1980's yeah?

In reply to Mick Ward:
Well I hope it sees the light!
In a sense all this could become a fitting tribute to Barry Brewster if it generates a critical mass of valuable and intersting history.
My club (the MAM) has a set of very old magazines dating back to about 1965. I have Nos 2-10 of Mountain and some early Rocksports. Maybe there should be an e-archive developed so all this stuff isn't lost. I bet Ken Wilson could make a massive contribution to that.

In reply to rodgit:

We used to do climbing as one of the choices in PE at school - it must have been about 1976 onwards? It was only indoors, on a homemade climbing board, with moveable holds and adjustable angle - but we didn't get anything like belay devices or harnesses. We were told to wear a long sleeved shirt with a collar, and got to body belay and do classic abseils.

Do you think it would be allowed these days?

In reply to rodgit:
My first rock shoes were Masters bought at Pooles in Leeds either late 72 or early 73.Either they were still being made or Pooles had a lot of old stock.

In reply to tlm:

When we went out on Stanage with school in the late '70s / 1980 I (as a pupil) was allowed to lead / solo routes and take a group of the other teenagers up routes unsupervised. The teachers knew I was a climber so figured it'd be OK, and I'd say they were right, but I'm guessing this wouldn't happen today.

In reply to rodgit:

You were a bit behind the times if that was in 1967, why carry the miners lamp and helmet? In 1966 I did Cenotaph corner with much the same gear, but by then I had a nylon rope and 9 slings of varying thicknesses of nylon slings with engineering nuts threaded on them.

In reply to John Gillott:

The closest my kids have got to this today, is when they have been on year camp with the school. It has always been indoor top roping. First time B saw what it was, just said very loud 'that's plastic, where's the real rock!?'

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants: Do you remember Tanky's first shop in Sheffield, it was one small window in Jim Cranswicks cobblers shop off Division St, I used to go in at lunchtimes for a cup of tea and a chat. First met Paul Nunn there. Then I helped Tanky set up his first real shop in town, painting and stuff.
Before Tanky's we only had a branch of Blacks for climbing gear in Sheffield.

In reply to Al Evans:

Can't remember. The one I knew was down a covered alley. I think Jim Reading worked there but I don't know any other names.

Al

In reply to Al Evans:
Al, you were obviously at the Gucci end of the market.
Our little crew had ignorance in abundence and very little else!
Rodgit

In reply to rodgit:


It sounds like a good book, I will have a look on Amazon or E-bay for it.

In reply to rodgit:

I'm a relative youngster, I started climbing in 1972 while at Reading University.

We used Viking hawser-laid ropes tied around the waist with a bowline, and body belays of course. Some used waist belts and there were a few harnesses of different types, but they didn't really take off until the Whillans came onto the market.

Chocks had moved beyond the machine-nut stage and were specially manufactured for climbing, but were mostly threaded on line of various sizes. Alongside the wedges and hexes were some bizarre designs which didn't catch on. Wires were only used for the smaller sizes, and the way they were joined didn't look encouraging (although I never heard of one failing). Aluminium krabs were around but we used steel as they were cheaper. Slings were knottedtape off the reel, although sewn slings were starting to come in. I did come across (crag swag) a sling made from hawser-laid rope spliced together in proper sailor-fashion (thinking about it, my prusik loops were like this too, only thinner).

I climbed in Dunlop Green Flash or walking boots (Hawkins Walkin's). Rock boots were to be graduated into and I didn't get my first EBs until I'd been climbing a couple of years. Looking at the photos in Classic Rock (the original version) it seems to have been quite normal to climb up to VS in big boots.

Clothing was woolly pully, woollen shirt, woollen breeches and woollen socks, topped off with a totally unbreathable knee-length cagoule. If the rain didn't get you the condensation did.

In reply to Al Evans: I bought my first rack from Tanky's Kong Bonatti karabiners a few hex's and sopme tat. I think it came to about £11 including postage.

I've still got some of the 'biners and my hex's are still on the same cord.

In reply to rodgit:

After hitching out to Cromford in Derbyshire and scrambling around up Via Gellia on a day off from work in April 1971 my pal, Glenn, and I decided to get some gear and go climbing. He'd done a bit of climbing with the scouts, so with his knowledge we went to Blacks in Nottingham and bought a 120ft 5/8" hawser laid rope, one or two MOACs, some pink tape and six iron krabs. The people at Blacks told us that Roger Turner's had EBs so we got a pair each, and off we went to Black Rocks.

For many Sundays we climbed mostly easy routes, up to VS, always as leader-second, and we'd talk to anyone who showed up at the crag for anything that would help us learn "how to", but mostly "where to" I remember first hearing about Cloggy on a warm summer's night after a session at Black Rocks. It sounded both magical and terrifying.

A year later I was in the alps with two other climbers --- Bill and Morris, with much the same equipment, a few more MOACs nuts, some filed down machine nuts, aluminium krabs, and a polypropylene rope from Preston docks that Bill got from his dad. We climbed with no helmets and a bowline around the waist. We didn't have crampons, but we had ice axes. The choice of gear was usually a matter of what we could afford. Edelrid perlon ropes were a real luxury at the time. And the maxim of "never fall off" seemed to make such expensive ropes a bit much for our little crags.

Looking back now it seems odd to have climbed in the alps before seeing Cloggy, and many other crags in Britain, but the climber's progress in those days was erratic. There were hardly any climbers really and one muddled through as best as one could relying on the expertise of others whether they really had any expertise at all. Great days indeed.

In reply to loose overhang:


Can't agree on that, there were plenty at Llanberris, and other well know areas in Britain and the Alps was already packed too - you had a job to find a place in the Biolay. Even in 69 we had to go up to the small clearings at the back, all the open grass was taken.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Thats the one I helped do up, it was a while after it opened before Jim worked there.

In reply to rodgit:

I got my copy of Blackshaw for being Fifth Form boffin in 1968 - something for nowt, I was well chuffed.
It was presented to me by Rupert Hart-Davis who asked me if I was interested in mountaineering!!!

Chris

In reply to rodgit: here's my take on getting into climbing in the early 1970's. It may ring a bell with a few contemporary Lancastrians. We could see Winter Hill from my school and I always wanted to go there. My parents used to take the family to Rivington and Anglezarke for Sundays so you couldn't help but notice the quarries. Several of us kids in our street used to ride our bikes (Raleigh Choppers!) or get two buses to Horwich and walk from there. I recall seeing the guys and gals from Wigan Casino all-nighters while we waited at the stop in Wigan. I bought a pair of Woollies pumps for my first dedicated rock footwear. When I saw someone in Brownstones wearing EBs I was sure they must be a magazine 'god' and couldn't summon up the bottle to talk to them. Most of our kit resembled stuff found in the Black Dog climbing museum (you'll know what I mean if you ever saw it). We had a mix of home-made and bought (anyone remember Clog Cogs?) and my first harness was a waist belt. Falling off was an option but not one you'd want to repeat too often. No-one laughed at us for our bodged kit (we weren't the only ones) - I'm sure kids starting out today would feel intimidated by the masses of shiny, expensive stuff that you 'need' to get out climbing nowadays?

In reply to rodgit:
I think some of the disparity in recollections of climbing gear and practice from the late 60s stems from how well off you happened to be, and whether you were just starting out or already an established climber.

I started in '69/70 with the usual bendy boots/ hemp waistlength/ hawser laid rope/ plastic builders helmet/ spud and drilled-out nuts/ steel krabs set-up. But largely this was because we had no money. I even went climbing in Wilton quarries with a 30ft plastic rope my mate dug up from the council tip where he worked (imagine the pitch lengths once you'd both tied on with bowlines...) Yet just a year later (working by now), we were climbing in the Dolomites with perlon ropes, Moacs, EBs, chest harnesses, Sticht plates etc. And a year or so after that, we were in Chamonix with Chouinard axes, Peuterey boots, Salewa 12-point crampons, Compton helmets, Whillans sit harnesses, etc.

I think this period from 60s to 70s was one of huge transition for the everyday climber, partly fuelled by some key advances in gear, partly through inspiration from magazines (Rocksport, Mountain, Crags), and partly through a shift in social attitudes to work (work in winter then jack in your job and go climbing in summer, or even - what the hell - just go on the dole full time).

Certainly a complex and fascinating period. I still recall the thrilling sense of empowerment from lacing up my first pair of EBs after struggling with hiking boots and pumps, and the sense of relative impunity when strapping on a Whillans harness for the first time. But like all history, the transitions weren't smooth and across-the-board. The belay plate, for example. As I say, we used them in 70 (my brother was in the army in Germany and picked up the habit there), yet they still weren't in common use 3 or 4 years later in the UK.

I also would love to read a definitive climbing history of this period.

In reply to Anonymous:
kletterschuhe.

Thanks, now I remember. Mine were green, and hugely uncomfortable. Bought them about 1962? And a half weight perlon rope cos I couldn't afford a full weight. Abseiling on carabiners wrapped around the rope.
And someone said it wasn't dangerous then!

In reply to Steve Ashton:

I saw my 1st belay play (a Sticht with the spring) in Sweden in 1976. The guy who demonstrated it let go of the rope assuming it would auto-lock and the hapless Second hit the ground. It was a while before I took them seriously!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
(a Sticht with the spring)

Sounds like a good title for a play

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Hi Chris,

Much of what I read in this thread is very familiar.

I was presented my copy of Blackshaw the same year, at St Joe's Killingworth, though I was 12. It has only just disintegrated!

The school had a busy Outdoor Activities programme which took us to Kielder Field Study Centre. My first 'formal' climbing was with the centre at the Belling.

Cable laid ropes, hemp waistlines and bendy boots were the norm. I stayed in the school system for several years, making home made gear, cut down battledress pants for breeches, home made rucksacs, (though most notably pop rivetted etriers!)and having a lot of close shaves and aventures - happy days! I recall around then I had climbed over most of the rock in Jesmond Dean). At sixteen I approached the Wanneys and was taken on board, the gear by now was marginally better, They took care of several youths and took us through adolesance, nocking off the rough edges. Gear was stillrudimentary, still no sit harnesses, and most of our climbing was in mountain boots. I was about sixteen when I sold my pushbike and bought my first pair of EBs and went from Hard Severe to HVS in a weekend. I did the short peg crack at Jesmond Dean around then) Over the next three years there was a bit of a revolution in gear. Nuts improved hugely with the advent of Chouinard Hexes and Stoppers, harnesses began to work, though footwear didn't develop much at all EBs continued to rule the roost. The next big thing was the arrival of Freinds, even the earliest rigid stem models were a revelation......

Another major development came in the arrival of indoor walls. The wall at Cramlington was the first in our area, around 75 I think. With that came strong fingers, though brick walls developed a somewhat two dimensional technique! Our footwork though, because of our apprentiship in bendy then alpine boots and the nature of the walls was immaculate.

Around 19 I started new routing in the county, joined the NMC and started jousting with John Earl and Robert Hutchinson (Rob is sadly dead, but he was an unfeasibly strong climber and set very, very, high standards). Tommy and Bob Smith soon arrived on the scene and livened things up a bit (a huge understatement). It was all very competitive and led to some hard, necky routes that have stood the test of time. In particular Bob developed into one of the country's unsung great climbers. I recall there was a parralel and 'vibrant' social scene that revolved around the mysteries of real ale. It remains a mystery......

I was fortunate enough to be around when there were still major gaps on the local crags and not many people up for, or able, to go for them. A very exciting period that I spend far to much time musing about nowadays!

I left the north East in 1980 returning in 2004, the same guys are about, older, wiser and active, held together with black masking tape, but still hungry. It's all good really.

The differences I've seen have been staggering, and I don't feel that old!

Regards,

Steve

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Forgive me, I should have written "compared with today"

In reply to rodgit: I remember watching the live broadcast of The Old Man of Hoy climb absolutely brilliant also tv coverage of the Coronation Street climb,cant imagine anything like that being shown on telly now,Of course there was the sheer quality of Mountain magazine getting that home was almost as exciting as a new gatefold album(sorry LP)cover.

In reply to deepstar:

That has reminded me, I recall seeing the FA. of Coronation Street, an ascent of Kilnsey Overhang, Joe Brown on Vector and the Old Man of Hoy you mention all on Saturday afternoon tele!

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
What got me scratting aroung quarries on Werneth Low!!

There is a paper on TV reality climbing by Paul Gilchrist- ( but this stupid forum won't let me post the web addy) - Try
Reality TV on the rockface climbing the Old Man of Hoy

In reply to Karl Lunt:

Karl - sounds like a retake of my experiences from the late 60's and early 70's..I still long after my Clog Cogs.. ( and I know who nicked/borrowed them !)
Black Woolies pumps - bought at least 2 sizes too small - rubbish for weeks - couple of outings when they were fantastic and then your foot exploded though the end..
Waistbelts that left a permanent bruise just under your sternum...
Then you bought a Whillans...that left a permanent bruise where you wouldn't want your Mom to have to rub it better!
Karabiners that weighed a ton.. Bandoliers for Seacliff climbing were essential if you were ever to surface!
Home made belay devices that "nearly" worked....( I'm sure Wild Country nicked my designs!!)
Does anyone remember "Spider" boots - I'm fairly sure I bought some in the early 70's from a shop in Stockport... then went back to Woolies ...

Then Woolies stopped doing the black pumps with the brown rippled rubber soles. Horror!! Green Flash was all that was available...rubbish!!
had to but some newfangled EB things...
How times have moved on...

In reply to loose overhang:

I haven't climbed on British crags for decades... you must have to fight for a place nowadays then I did go for a walk around Baggy Point not long ago and there weren't that many people so it I suppose you just have to keep off the beaten track, or climb in the rain.

In reply to Steve Ashton:

I think the major factor was how familiar the climbing scene was to you.
There had been a few climbing programmes on TV. I certainly had no background in climbing other than being inspired by the TV progs and as far as I knew no-one to ask about such things. Climbing in the small local quarries didn't improve knowledge - only desire to climb "properly". It was by chance that my art teacher mentioned the TV climbing and eventually ended up taking a couple of us to Windgather to show us rope work and real climbing.
We had no idea of ropes, ropework, belay devices, pitons, runners, karabiners or anything!
1968 -starting from scratch and finding there was already a huge volume of history and technology . We didn't even think of it as a sport in those days - It was just something you liked to do. It was only in the years afterwards when you got to hear about Brown and Whillans, started to discover guidebooks to climbing areas that it at all started to make sense.

In reply to Chris.Allott:
some newfangled EB things...

When I eventually got some EB's they seemed great - even played basketball at school in them a few times. As the inside edge wore down I was told that you could swap left for right - and you could! Which is probably an indication of how poor they really were?

In reply to Chris.Allott:

see my profile pic!

In reply to Chris.Allott: that's the style! I had a similar pic on the inside of The Prow at Wilton but wearing a red tracksuit - yes, we had colour film back then!! I might have a root about for it ....

In reply to pneame: that's a pig of a route even with the benefit of modern gear. I set off intending to jam and laybacked all the way (I've always hated laybacking).

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I remember toddling off to Gumpthwaite Quarry, just outside Oldham - just me and 30 or 40 mates - and blooody TV were there. Sir Chirs blooody Bonnington -(not that he was a Sir then mind, thank you very much) and anyway; there we were, all tooling around, most of us climbing at the highest standards of the the day, and who should role up but Jim blooody Perrin.....

Tell that t'youf of t'day and they don't believe you!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I've been away from the UK for 36 years, but last year I went to Scotland and had a great time across the Highlands on crags with very few climbers around. By contrast I went for a stroll along Stanage which was very crowded.

I climb at Squamish nowadays which is very busy during the summer. Unlike the mid-70s when there might be a dozen climbers present on a weekend. I suppose the popular spots get more popular.

In those old days pretty well wherever we went we'd run into climbers we knew. It makes me wonder how many regular climbers there were in, for example 1960, 65, 70 and so on. I wonder if the growth has been exponential?

Andrew

In reply to Bruce Hooker: 'you must have to fight for a place nowadays' You don't as a matter of fact. Did Mur y Niwyl couple of months ago on a fine Saturday and there was one other party on it all day. Did Main Wall previous year, ditto.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

1976 seems very odd. As Steve Ashton says, Sticht belay plates came out in c.1971, and absolutely everyone was using them within about 18 months. Biggest revolution in climbing gear, I think.

In reply to Karl Lunt:

Yes, EBs widely available in about 1970-71 were a huge step forward.

In reply to pneame:

But Green Flash were by far the best for hard tree climbing (I mean climbing the first 10-15 feet just on hard bark and a few pockets, with no branches - John and did a lot of that in Herfordshire between c. 1967-69, because there was absolutely nothing else available). They had to be absolutely bone dry. No other footwear came near them, because I think they were about the only plimsolls available in the late 60s that still used genuine rubber. (White rubber, but not synthetic at all).

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'm puzzled by that, I was at College in Sheffield 1970-73 and am sure none of us had belay plates at any time in that period.


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Well, that's very bizarre. I think there may even be a note in one of my log books commenting on first using the Sticht. The thing was it was very simple and very cheap, even by early 70s standards. I can't remember using my gardening gloves and hemp waistlines after about winter of 1971.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I even think ... thinking very hard (because I can't find any reference in my logbooks ... that we first started using them as early as August 1970. I'm fairly sure we all started using them at almost the same time - we being the people I climbed with, like Tim James, my brother and John Syrett. And other folks who were around then, like Al Rouse, all seemed to be using them.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I think belay plate usage was very variable. I stopped using mine for a while as no one else seemed to be using them but then there was a fatal accident to someone I knew in which a waist belay was a contributory factor and after that (this was 1974/5 I think), I always used one. Even then I often couldn't persuade occasional climbing partners to use them. I recall from 1977 my brother coming back from having doing a route on the wings of the Mot with Morty Smith saying he had used a shoulder belay... (that said, I occasionally used a shoulder belay in guiding situations in the Alps on rotten rock when the belay anchor was rubbish - offers better "feel".)

In reply to Chris Craggs:

We made our own (from a sheet of aluminium, cut up, slots drilled, and hours of sanding) - about 1975, we'd seen the ones with a spring, but they were too expensive.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

You've got me there.

I lived in Saddleworth, went to school in Oldham, cut my teeth on Den Lane and Dovestones Edge- but I have never, ever, heard of Gumpthwaite Quarry.

It's a bit late now but please enlighten me, all the same.

In reply to Mick Ward: hey Mick

I;ve read that and it's good, maybe a little ambitous for this place, why publish writing when you can have an article about shiny kit to please advertisers....

the SMC journal would take it, the CC should if it's too english"!

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I was using one in 1974, and they were around a bit before that methinks.

Steve

In reply to alasdair19:

Hi Al,

Glad you enjoyed it. In the early years of 'Mountain', Ken Wilson asked Allan Austin to write something for it. Austin refused. He said that he wanted his writing to be in journals, such as the CC journal, so that it would be preserved. By contrast, he saw climbing magazines as ephemeral, only a step or two up from newspapers.

Following that argument, you could argue that stuff on here is even more ephemeral. However I quite like the interaction and, unlike Austin, have no desire for my writing to be preserved.

With conventional writing, you send messages into the ether. You very rarely know how they've affected people (if, indeed, they've affected them at all). By contrast, on here, you very quickly know.

Historical articles stir up so many memories from people; they become catalysts for a sharing of memories among us. (Otherwise, 'All of these memories will be lost in time... like tears in rain.)

And climbing's history is an endless array of stories, tragic, comic, absurd.

The Stoney reunion, last year, showed in no uncertain fashion that an awful lot of people care deeply about our shared history.

Hope to see you soon,

Mick

In reply to Rob Exile Ward: Hi Rob,

Yes I think it was Brighams, altho' they were somewhere else before that because I spent a fortune on an Outward Bound rucsac (that in later years nearly had me off the bike due to temporary brachial palsy) and a pair of EBs...the EBs were just over 6 quid..this would be '67/68. And yes tying into a hemp line wrapped round the waist with an ex MOD crab. I later bought a Davek harness...the real whizz. Wintours Leap and the Gorge...finishing Unknown Buttress by streetlight! Anyone know the whereabouts of a guy called Ken Corfield, French teacher,Oxford grad..straight arrow !!!

In reply to Al Evans: was at Sheff Poly 72/24 Paul Nunne lectured there..? Think I met him in the Union bar

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

But there was surely an interim period when figure of 8s were poplar as belay devices?

In reply to Steve Ashton:
1973 holding my mate Gordon Briggs (13 stone+)on a waist belay as he came off the lip of the Sloth on the Roaches, pulled a nut and came on the belay - a huge great Clog that we just couldn't get out...he did get there second time!

In reply to Postmanpat:

Used mine with Mark Miller at Yarncliff and Froggatt 1977ish

In reply to Kipper:

We also made our own belay plates from alloy ( with varying degrees of success) - My mate has just reminded me how bad these devices were with hawser laid ropes - they always seemed to twist badly and locked up. I reckon they only caught on when we were all using kernmantle ropes.

In reply to steve deeming:

I remember going to the Main Area after a gig at the Old Granary at about 2.00 AM and soloing Route Minus Two on Exhibition Slab in dessert boots and a fur coat(it only had one downward pointing spike the,probably none now)..

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I think I must have been a late adopter of Sticht plates. Having held some immense falls and heavy people I was very confident of my waist belaying. Of course, I was working in centres at the time which were very slow to adopt plates and harnesses, possibly because of the expense. Certainly when I did my MIC assessment in 1978 we did it all with waist belts and waist belays. It made improvised rescue great fun!

In reply to rodgit:
What a fantastic thread, I've read every piece with fond memories and in a state of awe.
I only started climbing in 1977/78, Hawkins Rockhoppers, Whillans sit harness stylishly in purple and white, three nuts that always fell out, two bandoliers that were furry and a furry rope borrowed from a scout group. Absolutely no idea of what climbing was about, at Markfield quarry, just that it was one up from tree climbing and probably more dangerous.
My climbing partner hated the fact that I wouldn't rely on the rope even when belayed from above, I'd hang on till the death. So one day he just pushed me away from the rock with his foot at the top of a pitch. Apparently it was a lesson to trust the gear!

Steve

In reply to Steve Ashton: I went on an Outward Bound course at Ullswater in 1974 and there was no sign of a belay plate in use there. They used waist belays and had an apparatus that simulated holding your seconds fall. This involved dropping a very heavy log - more like half a tree - from a ledge with a few feet of slack in he system while you held the fall from above. I can still remember the feeling of the rope burning through my thin nylon Ben Sherman shirt but at least they lent us one leather glove.
Despite this lesson it was 1985 before I starting using a belay plate on a regular basis and many of may mates started about the same time. We were also still using masters, gollies, etc (because we were skint) and marvelled at the sight of a pair of Fires being used to apparently run up the Idwal Slabs.
Much of the variation in gear usage must have been down to a lack of shared info - these were the days when a new route could take months to appear in a magazine and many climbers operated in a pre internet bubble.

pmc

In reply to baron:
I was instructing at Ullswater in 1974. Our paths may have crossed!

In reply to rodgit:

Rob Ward may remember some of this....Jack Longland coming to 'open' the school 'climbing wall' on Speech Day ( 1971/2)and being too backward to tell him I'd just done Longlands Climb on Cloggy. Remembering the smell of pork scratchings when an old hawser-laid ripped through my hands...picking the scabs off for weeks after!!!

In reply to rodgit: Reading this almost makes me feel young as I started climbing in (I think) 1973. I bought my first gear from a shop in Ambleside (Frank Davis's ?) - a pair of EBs (about £5 I think, could this be right ?) plus some tape to make a couple of slings, 3 nuts - a MOAC and 2 hexes and a few krabs - the result of saving from a saturday job & dropping hints that money for climbing gear would be a good birthday present. My mate bought a similar selection & we'd managed to borrow a rope and spent the next few days climbing in Langdale before hitching home. We didn't have a guidebook but copied out descriptions from others on the NT campsite who were very friendly & helpful to a couple of young kids (we would have been 15 or 16 at the time).

In reply to Andy Long: I was a spotty 17 year old - I would have been in awe of any instructor - they sported Helly Hansen fibre pile and climbed like gods The good old days indeed!

pmc

I started in 1957. Hemp rope. Sandshoes. One wooden shafted axe in winter. Lots of unexplored rock and ice. Not many people in Glencoe and Nevis. Moved on to hockey boots with the studs sawn off and a bit of plywood for stiffness. Great days and lucky to be alive after it

In reply to Andy Long:
I don't recall Sticht plates appearing until about '74 (in Liverpool). Mostly, we didn't use them, although intermittent use increased over the next few years. I had one fairly early after their appearance, but I was certainly mostly using waist belays in '76.
There was some experimenting with figure 8s, but they weren't much liked either (except for abseils!).

In reply to rodgit: My first axe was an Aschenbrenner[spelling] I curved the pick with a blowtorch shortened the shaft and coated it with fibre glass resin. It weighed a ton but combined with a Chouinard ice hammer got me up many a Scottish route and quite a few alpine. Nuts were drilled engineering nuts of various sizes threaded on cord. I think their value was mostly psychological. The first MOAC was a revelation and I can't bring myself to part with mine. Tied in directly but after a couple of years discovered a few wraps of hemp round the waist and Ex WD krabs. Walking boots for most stuff and plimsolls from woollies for the VS's. I can't for the life of me remember my first rock boots but probably EB's. Route descriptions were often passed on on the back of fag packets and beer mats. Literally.

Al

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I started in 1974 and pretty soon had EB's and a Whillans but it was a few years later before we started using sticht plates.

In reply to rodgit: I certainly remember starting with a hemp waistline before graduating to a waistbelt (courtesy of Ellis Brigham in Manchester - weighed about 4 lbs) anf then the nutcracking Whillans (does Sir dress to thye left or the right?). However, we certainly saved up for nylon ropes (hawser laid, naturally) and had plenty of protection courtesy of Whitworth nuts, filed down to fit whatever (we even had micro nuts, by way of nylon string with filed down nuts from electrical kit - the first copper kit! - Lord knows what they would have held (certainly body-weight). Plus ca change). The trick was to string several nuts in different sizes on one sling - gave a better choice. We certainly used heavy krabs but did not seem to suffer too much - and had PA's. Slightly scary but fun. Much safer now of course (creaking joints notwithstanding) but it can take me a while to get off the ground, weighed down as I am by sets of nuts and Friends.

In reply to rodgit:

I bought my first rock boots in 1972, a pair of EBs from the YHA shop for the highly discounted price of 21 shillings. Only realised when I got home that they were different sizes hence the price!

Didn't matter,they were rock boots and they were mine! Wore them for a year or two.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Would have been £1.05 in 1972, Decimal currency had arrived on 15 February 1971

In reply to David Lanceley:

Good point! Just over a quid anyway...

I've still got a copy of Mountain 19 I bought on the same day!

In reply to Stone Idol:
there used to be a lot of home-made gear in those days, with neccessity being the mother of invention. Fortunately most of it never got tested "in anger" and disasters were rare. One of my mates put meccano nuts on bicycle brake cable which he proudly used for over a year. someone tested them for him and they failed at about 80 lbs.!
Maybe modern technology has brought trad climbing too close to super-safe sports climbing .... if so , is this a bad thing?
Rodgit

In reply to rodgit: Well I guess most of you are too young !!. I was climbing with Whillans in 1958 and he was wearing what was then PA's. I asked him what they were and he said they were things they picked up at a shop in Paris (he was not too fortcoming with any further info) !.I think they (Rock and Ice) picked them up in 1957 on their way to the alps. Brown Whillans Banner etc had these shoes if I am correct almost two years before anyone else realised how good they were compared to Woolies gym shoes.We eventually got hold of them by sending two pounds fifty to PA in Paris and the shoes were mailed to us ..quite a while before they ever hit the climbing shops.. I think by then PA had sold to EB.

In reply to USBRIT:
Brown Whillans Banner etc had these shoes if I am correct almost two years before anyone else realised how good they were compared to Woolies gym shoes

Echoes of Jerry Moffat in 1984(?) having Fires before anyone else?

In reply to Darron:

I've still got an original pair of Fires...they were too bloody painful first time out and I immediately replaced them with a pair of Joshua Trees...amazing shoes and I would have thought that was pre '84

In reply to rodgit:

'Rockclimbers in Action in Snowdonia'...Rusty Bailey on the Corner, seeming taken from the other side of the Pass....essential lunchtime reading in the school library at lunchtime

In reply to steve deeming:

And was it Rusty baille "...bombing up the gates"? Inspiring stuff.

In reply to Darron:

"I had this dream see, I was falling upwards in a shaft of light"

Familiar?

In reply to David Lanceley: Pellagra!

I had an addiction to collecting books of my youth - I've two copies of Blackshaw, three different Rebuffat books etc etc - you get the picture. I'm more or less cured now but if ever I track down a copy of that...

In reply to Rob Exile Ward: This thread has just prompted me to order a second hand copy of Blackshaws book. Mine fell to pieces years ago but I feel that someone of my generation should have a copy if only for posterity..

Al

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:


Funnily enough I have just done the same!


Chris

Al Randall
Your first pair of rock boots were RD's I was always amazed at how you managed to do the routes we did in them as they were un- bendable no stickabilaty with the polished rubber sole.
If you remember up on cloggy in 72, Roland Edwards told us to buy a stich plate as it may save our lives.
I remember Tanky's in the old cobbler's in Sheffield in the late 60's where I used to buy a peg or two a week and bonnatti crabs.
I also started climbing with our mate Dennis Ibbotson and Rog Healey on 2 no 2 laid ropes before I bought a kermantel 150ft in 1970.
Yes I have lot's of images from 69/70 onwards that you can use I just need to digitalize them somehow for you.
PS to Al Evans eh up mi old mate ah tha goeing.

In reply to keith sanders: No they weren't. I bought those on my first day out of bed after my accident. I had something else before then and before I knew you.

Al

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
Sorry yes now I remember you telling me about them.
But you were very good in them and taught me a lot of technique and we went on to do alot of good and bold routes for there time over the first half of the 70's

In reply to David Lanceley:

Very ! and a following photo had sound advice which has stood me in good stead for the past 50+ years of climbing - ' you go, you commit yourself and it's the big effort that counts'

In reply to keith sanders: I inherited a battered pair of 'PAs' from my older brother in about 1970 - what was left of the rubberised canvas was red and black and the soles were practically rigid though I got on alright with them - led Vector in them in 1972, and thought they were great getting up to the Ochre slab.

I then bought a pair of 'RDs' which were almost as rigid but had very swish brown suede uppers, almost a kletterschue really - got on alright with those too.

Talking of which - I was following a party up Christmas Curry last year, and some poor fresher was struggling and being 'intructed' by her mates - 'smear, smear.' I couldn't stop myself: 'no, you don't want to smear at all, just place your feet carefully on the footholds and step up...' What do they teach 'em nowadays?

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I remember the red & black PAs - they came out about the same time the original blue & grey PAs became blue & grey EBs. The original PAs were softer and pointier toed; red PAs were stiff like RDs; EBs were in between - softer and with a rounder toe but thicker soles than original PAs, and though not sticky by today's standards, gave better friction than Masters, RDs etc.

I bought Masters (mistake but they were a quid cheaper than PAs) after my third day out climbing, so not long climbing in pumps for me. First day was Feb 13th 1965 at what is now called Denham but was known to us as Brindle Quarry. No Lancashire guide yet you see.

The next Saturday was at a quarry near Longridge - might have been the one of which today's Craig-y-Longridge is a small part. We had no idea what we were climbing.

The third day was when the lights came on for me. A cold sunny Saturday in March at Great Close Scar; snow on the ground, ice on Malham Tarn and at last a guide book! (Mike Mitchell's "Climbs on Yorkshire Limestone" - a very slim volume of 30 or 40 pages costing three shillings and sixpence; might have had maybe a hundred routes in it) Not a breath of wind so climbing was comfortable in the sun and of course the aspect was beautiful. And that did it. Next chance I got I was at the shop for a hemp waist line, big steel screwgate and those Masters. My football days were over!

In reply to Rob Exile Ward: I`m surprised that no one has mentioned Arvons in Bethesda! I am pretty sure that he was the only guy selling climbing gear in Snowdonia in the late 50s. He sold mainly climbing boots but also stocked crabs, pegs and hemp waistlines etc. One of his successful products was a kletterschoe. In its new state it was very bendy. However, Arvon would remove the moulded rubber sole, fit a leather insert and replace the rubber. The outcome was a much stiffer, very good climbing shoe. Johnnie Lees was the instigator of this modification. I think also that Arvon responded to Johnnie`s suggestions as to the gear he should stock. JL was the leader of the RAF Valley mountain rescue team at that time.
24 feet of quarter weight hemp was the 50`s harness! Wound around the waist, used with a large Stubai screwgate crab and a tarbuck knot on the climbing rope - bomb proof! With waist belays nylon did not run across nylon. There was no chance of `melting` in the event of holding a fall.

In reply to chasanhar:
Well, only your hands melted!
I remember the 24' hemp - briefly replaced by a nylon waist belt / harness. Leg loops followd on quickly, I think initially inspired by Whillans & his eponymous harness. Various people fashioned their own I recall.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
you must have to fight for a place nowadays then

Well yes and no.
I dare say Stanage is crowded but The Peak holds no interest for me.
Up here in Scotland, where the rock is sublime, there are no crowds.
My theory is that most people my age have done everything decades ago and the youngsters are clipping bolts in Spain or eroding the ground away in Burbage Valley. Fine with me.
Only six other people on Gogarth Main Cliff the day I did Syringe. Even Bosigran wasn't that bad at Easter. Only about 8 other blokes on the extremes all week. There weren't any queues at Pembroke this summer either.

In reply to chasanhar: Remember the shop well - 47 High St !. Bought my first gear there- such an investment for a poor spotty youth I recorded the prices. My first boots - Arvons Tigers !! £5, bedford cord breeches £3 (like wearing wet paper when it rained),20ft hemp waistline 5s6d, could only afford 3 stubai steel carabiners 8s6d each (still got them). Viking nylon ropes were relatively new replacing 100ft hemp but couldn't afford one - bought a 2nd hand one cheap - because 1 of the 3 strands was nearly cut through. No problem in those days cos the leader should never fall ! Do I remember a shop called Brennands in Capel ?

In reply to JTM: The Mountain Shop was there in the early 60's run by Ken McLoughlan (sp?) until it was taken over by Brighams and Ken set himself up in Walsall (or come to think of it could have been Wolverhampton)

In reply to keith sanders: Oh God yes,I had some of those RD's. Soles about 3/4 inch thick: no feel at all and really shiny rubber: no friction at all. Did't keep them long.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward: Rock Climbers in Action in Snowdonia. I got a copy (not cheap) about a year ago, as a present for someone. A google search located at least 2 copies. I got mine from a place in Kendal.

In reply to loose overhang:
He'd done a bit of climbing with the scouts, so with his knowledge we went to Blacks in Nottingham and bought a 120ft 5/8" hawser laid rope, one or two MOACs, some pink tape and six iron krabs. The people at Blacks told us that Roger Turner's had EBs so we got a pair each, and off we went to Black Rocks.

I used to have a Saturday job in Blacks in Nottm around that time - Hi!

(Used to get my decent gear from Roger Turner though....)

In reply to PeteC:
But the uppers lasted forever!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Re belay plates. When I was just getting into it all there were a few 'wire' fig 8 absil devices around and also the infamous Pierrre Allaini 'toasting fork' descendeur. I can't remember any form of belay device at least until well into the 70's

In reply to rodgit:

I had a 3/4 inch hemp waistline, like many others, but no one has mentioned Troll waist belts.. I was given one along with a load of pegs and other gear by someone who was giving up climbing. Very good for carrying gear, and a hammer holster but you still had to thread the ropes round and tie in normally. The load was simply spread by a fairly stiff 3 inch webbing belt. It had gear loops and a thinner tape system for fifi hooks. No leg loops, but I never liked the look of them when Whillans' harnesses started being sold. After a bit I used a 9mm rope sling permanently threaded through so I could tie in like on modern harnesses... only bought one of these about five years ago, and I still prefer a waist belay...

You get funny looks nowadays using one though I've yet to discover how you give a second a tug using a belay device?

In reply to rodgit:

Andy Parkin and I got our first Sticht plates in 72 for the Alps , the main advantage we could see was that the ab ropes would not be twisted on descends. However their real quality was shown when on the Dru with Pete Gommersall he fell seconding a traverse carrying a haul bag and pulled me off the stance upside down but I could hold him one handed , a waist belay would have been ripped off.
I still use the same plate on my shunting rig and this is what is stamped on it.

9mm Doppel Sticht Bremse DBPa made in West Germany

In reply to bill briggs1:
I recall an abseil device ,Italian I think, (magnone?)which was made of shiney steel like half a small bean tin, which fitted across the spine and gate of a screwgate crab (if the crab was the right size! ). I don`t think the designer was a climber,nor was it properly tested before being launched onto the general climbing publi.Mine was launched into the Irish Sea off Gogarth!
Rodgit

In reply to rodgit:

I often say to my wife "these are the good old days"

In reply to bill briggs1:

Wheeew - I got one of them! One slot for 11mm and one slot for 9mm?

In reply to andyathome: Yes, after the initial purchase at Black's I got all my gear from Roger Turner's. The last two things I bought there before leaving for Canada in 1975 was a Point Five down jacket which I still use, though the Mrs thinks it's disgusting (true) and The Black Cliff which I had planned to read to the grand kids --- they don't seem interested though .... funny?

I also made a belay plate from an aluminium blank, that was in 1974. We'd seen the first ones only that year. It got an early test too. I fell on the last pitch of Crosstie after pulling off the last piece of loose rock left on Dinas Mot

I perhaps went to RT's on Saturday once or twice, but I bet that if I could remember back that far I would have known you.

Cheers, from another Andy

In reply to rodgit:

I remember nicking a Ron James from one library and swapping it for another in another library because it was in better condition....
And I won't mention the 1974 Plymouth trip to Strone Ulladale..could write a book on that one!!!!!

In reply to SteveSBlake: Very familiar territory indeed. Like you I became acquainted with 'Blackshaw' in the late 60's, and having acquired some basic gear (hawser laid nylon rope, some krabs, a hemp waist band, some line slings and the old -thin card backed- Northumberland Guide) from Denton Cycles. I was 21 at the time, and had a mini van so I made my way to Simonside and proceeded to lead my father up my first Diff. Visits to Great Wanney and other crags soon followed, but my first introduction to 'proper' climbs was when I met up with young Ed Thompson at Causey Quarry. My mate and I were the first ones to arrive at the crag that day, and struggled to get off the ground on anything that looked feasible. We looked at Mangler and decided it must be an Aid route -- then Ed arrived -- put on his EB's and proceeded to Solo it! He then pointed us in the direction of the few sub Severe routes, and we managed to struggle our way up them. The experience was enough to put my mate off climbing, but shortly after that I got to know Ed and his dad a lot better, and was soon following HVS's in plimsolls. I set myself a target of leading my first VS before getting my first pair of proper rock boots ( which happened to be Ed sr's old PAs when he bought a new pair of EB's).

I remember Cramlington wall opening -- the sharp brick edged ripped the skin off your fingers, there was a hard floor with no crash mats, and no fixed ropes. You had to be able to be happy soloing VS up to about 8 metres above a very hard landing if you wanted to fix your own top rope. No wonder old timers developed a habit of not falling off.

In reply to dgp: No, I cannot remember Brennands in Capel. However, a visit to Arvons was usually followed up by a pie from Wendy`s cafe and a play for the local lasses who seemed to reside there!

In reply to Lord of Starkness:

Most of my early days were spent at Crag Lough. In fact Back Alley and Trapeze were my first leads - on the same course run by the Keilder Outdoor Centre. The odd spike perhaps for pro. The crag was so much cleaner then than it is now. The Main Wall area is a hanging garden in the summer!

I was a regular visitor there with a group of other youngsters who had joined the Wanneys, Clive Herdman, Gavin Kilgour, Martin Moran, Bronwen Kitto (soon Mrs Blake) and Sheena Craig. We were there in all weathers, I associate the crag with hot pains.... I occasionaly climb there now, and with hindsight can see the value of a 'traditional' intro to the sport - you certainly developed your survival skills! You mention Causey, in 1976, newley married, I was living in Gateshead with and used to climb at Causey regularly, eventually soloed the Mauler and Dangler, both free, but had that evening spoiled by the theft of my wristw*tch - oh well! Again BITD it was much, much cleaner. I was there a year or so ago but it was in such a state I didn't bother.

The Cramlington wall became something of a forcing ground and I was fortunate to live half a mile away, very handy. Sessions always seemed to compete with the activities of the Women's Leauge of Health and Beauty!

The old wall's still there though, hidden behined the more contemporary, but poorly maintained panel wall. It still gets used by Bob, myself and Graeme Read.

Did we ever meet?

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake: Can anybody remember the stupendous t**ts of the girl in Tremadoc cafe, she was renowned among the climbing comunity at the time. I went out once with her far prettier sister who also worked there but was not so favourably endowed!

In reply to SteveSBlake:

From your profile: "I've been fighting gravity for over 40 years. Unlike me it doesn't seem to be tiring, getting older or prone to injury. I'm still trying though!"

Nice.

In reply to Al Evans:

So was she a good climber or was there another reason why she was memorable? (.)(.) :-0

In reply to Al Evans: Do you remember the girl at the Moon closing party in Stoney. Sue, I think. Some of the guys presented her with a horses feeding bag from the Stoney stallions. My mate Keith had to console her afterwards. Well he said that was what he was doing.

Al

In reply to Steve Ashton:
Hi Steve
I reckon your about right with the dates and your memory still sounds good to me.
Mal

In reply to Al Evans:

I went to Sheffield as a postgrad in 1963 and a friend and I persuaded Jim to knock up a waist belt from two layers of sturdy webbing to which we attached gear loops. The idea was to ease the pain of resting on runners (which was the accepted way then of doing a 'free' ascent) compared to just tying in to the rope. This caused some friction with Tanky who was then offering the 'Tanky harness' at a premium although it was also really just a belt.

Around that time a SUMC member, Chas Curtis, developed an aluminium wedge, drilled to take a wire loop, usually a recycled motorbike clutch cable. The loop was closed either by a knot or a swage and the wedge countersunk to take the join, which was sealed with epoxy resin. The devices were known as 'little mesters' after the small cutlery workers who were then going out of business.

I was not party to the use of these, which were reserved for the inner circle, but one survived for very many years in the Mississippi Variant on Stanage. I also recall one evening on Stanage with Oliver Woolcock testing a new idea - a tape sling. This was intended to slot behind flakes too thin for ropes, but I don't think there were too many opportunities for its use there.

In reply to Al Evans:

cant believe you havent refered to them in the colloquial.. big jugs!!

In reply to rodgit:

I was 13 when I first went climbing and my dad said that if I was really keen to do it I'd better learn properly and he'd pay 50% of the cost of a PYB course.

I got taught by some bloke called Malcolm Creasey. I wonder whatever happened to him

In reply to Postmanpat:

There's a picture of Mal here... See if you can find him: http://alexekins.photoshelter.com/gallery/Black-and-White-Portraits/G0000OW...

In reply to Ian Jones:

You can find peace and solitude in the Peak District, if you choose your day (and time) and location carefully.

If you go to some Peak crags near to cities at tea time or an hour before, when most people are starting to go home, you can get the crag to yourself, with just the sheep and maybe half a dozon other climbers for company, along with the odd walker.

Rock being sublime is subjective, but Peak gritstone can be as nice as the granite(?) i've played on a little bit in Torridon I think.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to rodgit:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/obituary-sid-thompson-1323602....

remember Sid? share your stories

ann

In reply to JTM:

5862?! The other guys were Rowland Edwards and a bloke called Rick Abbott who I believe opted for a life of surfing.

In reply to Postmanpat: I have seen his name on another post on here in the last few days but I can't recall which one.

Al

In reply to SteveSBlake:
>

Probably not -- I lived in Cramlington from 71 then moved to Penrith in 74. I climbed regularly with the Eden Valley MC. I've visited the Cramlington wall a couple of times when I went to see my parents at Tynemouth. I remember the last time I was at Cramlington wall bumping in to my old cycling mate Kevin McLane, who had breifly returned to the UK from Canada whilst his wife completed her nursing training. I didn't see Kev again for getting on for 30 years until we met up again in Squamish last summer.

In reply to Lord of Starkness:

I'm from Cramlington, and lived there from71 to 79, with a brief interlude in Gateshead. Kevin and I climbed together a fair bit - you recall he lived in Cramlington before moving back to Squamish?

I was on the Baffin Island trip in 75, along with Kevin, Dave Mac, Ken Rawlinson et al.

I visited Kevin a couple of times in the mid 90s and we corresponded, but lost contact after he and Linda split. I've tried to contact him a few times but never garnered a response.

Interestingly, last year I was stuck in France because of the volcanic ash - part of the rescue involved someone who had cycled with Kevin in his youth - it's a small world - seven degrees of separation etc.

Best regards,

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake: That should be Lynn of course, not Linda

In reply to SteveSBlake:

'tis indeed a small world

In reply to Ann Davis:

I'm pretty sure I read that obit in a climbing mag back in the 90's. I'm also pretty sure the old fella I met at Glen Brittle campsite in 1991 was him. He seemed very old but very fit and keen. Used to carry milk for his brews in an old cleaned out bleach bottle I recall. Cycled everywhere.

He said to me the morning after we arrived "I had a nightmare last night that they built a factory here beside the beach, and look!" (he pointed at the large tin-roofed toilet block which did look kind of industrial in appearance).

I don't know for sure, but the guy I met certainly fitted Bill's description when I read it a few years later.

In reply to steve deeming: Hi Steve, sorry I missed your post earlier. Was Ken Corfield the bloke you were climbing with when you came to my school in Worcester? He took a slide of you on Dawn Walk climbing into the sunset that has stuck with me, my youngest son and I did that relatively recently partly inspired by that photo.

As for sticht plates - they weren't that common in 72/74 when I was climbing XS (at least in Wales) regularly. I did the Luna Bong abseil in 78 with a karabiner brake and sling, (plus a few alpine classics) though that was definitely bonkers by then and I acquired a plate and a Whillans harness when I returned to the UK soon after.

In reply to deepstar: Nipper Harrison used to carry so much gear on his troll waist band that he didn't have leg loops, he had straps over his shoulders to support the weight like a pair of braces.

In reply to Al Evans:

Before Tanky's we had the YHA shop on Shalesmoor and Jackson & Warr's on Comercial St.

I started climbing in 1959 but I'm still the youngster amongst my mates. Knowing people who had been climbing five and ten years before me got me things like old FEB's, Klets, and an old hemp line with 1 ton breaking strain. This would hold a fourteen foot fall before snapping (supposedly). Nylon climbing ropes were out by then (BS 3104:1959) but nobody I knew had one. In the maths lessons at school, I used to ponder on the different nailing paterns of clinkers and tricouni's.

Being a steel works engineer I made all the pegs, nuts, wooden wedges (one still in Great North Road), bolt hangers (still in the Cioch Block) ice pegs and the new stitch plate. There was plenty of reading matter like Rock Climbing and Mountaineering by C Brunning and my first bought guide books were "Further Developments In The Peak District" and "Rock Climbs on the Mountain Limestone of Derbyshire" all of which I still have in the loft. Edward C Pyatt wrote "Where to Climb in the British Isles" but most of these places were a long hitch.

An interesting qoute from the preface of C Brunning's book "I have devoted no chapters to the subject of Fellowship of the Hills and similar sentiments as I firmly believe that when a man or woman is sufficiently interested in the hills to contemplate taking up climbing, these sentiments may be taken for granted". I wonder if this applies today?

Great idea for a website. All Our YesterPlays...more epics than I could shake a stick at.

Anyone remember Arvons in Bethesda, btw?

Cheers

In reply to Greenbanks: Been mentioned already but still... yep, I got a pair of moleskin 'breeches' there in about 1969. Dear God, whoever thought they were a good idea?

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Wash your mouth out - I led Our Father in a pair of those - how's that for bridging the generations?


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: Respect!

The only E3s I ever managed were in a pair of loons, or maybe jeans with a hole in the backpocket to take my stubai peg hammer.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward.
I climbed once on the Cobbler wearing a pair of cut short green pinstripe suit trousers (it was a hot day). My mate had on only his underpants.We never thought this was unusual but did get some funny looks, although I thought at the time this may have been because we were carrying pegs and peg hammers! This was the early 1980's when I began climbing.

In reply to USBRIT: This is well documented (Paul?) and other less known climbers at this time were wearing PA's. Norman Brown was using them in the late fifties, I think he bought them in Chamonix.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Dawn Chorus..That's not me!!! There was a guy called Simon and he had a brother...I think they were part of the Kings lot? Its that easier top generic pitch that we used to get to the top from the big ledge.....which reminds me of leading Ron Hockey on something at Wintours Leap....he spent the whole time singing hymns.....and yes - we all had to have the Stubai hammer!!!!

In reply to rodgit:

its good to hear reminders of your generation. my dad was a climber in the 60s and as i went from his watchful eye at his side to climbing with my (more youthful and wild) friends he constantly commented on the rise and development of the gear and beta we had.
i think as a father he quietly appreciated we climbed on better gear than he had.

im constantly amazed at the stuff you lot climbed with - not just on the crags but in the big peaks as well.
an era when climbers were more often nutters than not.

tho much of the looney side is long gone now, for the regular climber at least, i like to think it lives on a little in ice climbing - where the gears still pretty basic, the stakes are high, and the rule of 'just dont fall' lives on.
i wonder where ice climbing will be in 30 years.

in the best possible way, i hope you feel old - because many early climbers never got the chance.

In reply to USBRIT:
There were PA's (blue & white) & also the brown suede looking ones, a rival to PA's. Mac even wore them on the walk in. What were they called?

In reply to mockerkin:

I've just thought, re my last post. Mac would always say that wearing traditional rubber soled, sharp edged climbing boots allowed you to stand on a foot hold "as thin as the rim of a beer glass" which you couldn't do with PA's etc. Then he started doing walk-ins using the brown PA rival. Was he the first serious climber to use rock shoes as walk-ins & walk-in boots for climbing?
To all who knew Mac, you know that he wouldn't take offence at this post.

In reply to Ann Davis:

Well, that person "armus" was right on this thread.

In reply to rodgit:

I started in 1966. Climbed in plimsolls with very thin rope I knicked off a flag-pole in Catterick Garrison. Graduated to a 40 sisal gardening rope that I bought with my pocket money, then a 100' No 4 nylon, a few slings and some walking boots: http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/100152468

I remember leading Little Cham about this time, three of us all gripped witless, I borrowed one of the other guys klettershue for the top pitch - he was more experienced but wouldn't lead it. Great days!

Chris

In reply to mockerkin:

RD's. The sole lasted forever!

In reply to Andy Say: RD's. The sole lasted forever!


Those are the ones!

In reply to mockerkin:

I think I've still got a pair somewhere. Unless the mice have had the suede. Along with my collection of soft steel pegs and hemp waistline + Hiatt screwgate krag