UKC

/ Logging partial routes

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Dom Goodwin - on 02 Jul 2018

What is the best solution for logging intentionally partially completed routes?

Two examples:

(I) Having started up Parson’s Nose, we finished up Clogwyn y Person Arête. Thus we didn’t really do the whole of Clogwyn y Person Arête route in the sense that the normal starting point for this is at the bottom of the gully.

 

(2) Start up Gashed Crag, intending to move across above the crux to finish up Munich, so that Gashed Crag Route has not been climbed in its entirety. (I haven’t done this, but it seems a reasonable idea.)

There doesn’t seem a satisfactory way to log these scenarios - it can’t really be listed as “did not finish” as that wrongly implies failure. An option for deliberate partial completion would solve the problem.

My current solution is simply not to log such routes. That works fine until climbing partners log the climb - some people are happy to do this, perhaps adding a note to the effect that they only partially climbed the route. I prefer not to do that personally as I like logged climbs to mean I’ve completed the whole climb. If I haven’t done the entire route, I may wish to return another time to do it, so a tick is conveniently giving me a list of what I have completed. Of course, I can simply ignore the logbook request to add a climb to my logbook that a partner says they have done with me, though that feels slightly rude (like I’m ignoring them), hence the dilemma.

It’s not a big deal, but just curious what others do in this situation and if there is a better solution I’ve missed...

5
Webster - on 02 Jul 2018
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

at the end of the day, do what you like, the game is a completely arbitrary one. i tend to log both as lead OS (or just leave the style blank) and leave a suitable comment explaining the combo. my log book only means something to me.

1
gravy - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to Webster:

I log the most relevant route (hardest or most substantial section) and put notes in to say what I did. 

In some instances people create "new" routes combing the different sections - Dives / Sabre cut (VS 4c)

 

 

Dom Goodwin - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to gravy:

The “new” route suggestion seems like the way to go - at least for those of us who prefer not to tick a route that hasn’t been done in its entirety. That way you can accurately log exactly what you’ve done.

I suppose the downside to this is that a load of different route combinations can leave a bit of a messy summary of a crag with inevitable repeated information.

9
beardy mike - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

If you look up first world problems in the encylopedia Britannica there will in future be a picture of this thread.

3
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

> The “new” route suggestion seems like the way to go - at least for those of us who prefer not to tick a route that hasn’t been done in its entirety. That way you can accurately log exactly what you’ve done.

> I suppose the downside to this is that a load of different route combinations can leave a bit of a messy summary of a crag with inevitable repeated information.

We would certainly prefer that people don't do this, and it is quite likely that such personal combinations will get deleted by moderators if they are logged as routes.

Personally I would log the route with the hardest pitch you did and make notes in your ascent details. However I can see that there is a need for some more satisfactory solution long term.

 

Alan

Simon Caldwell - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

I would

1. Log Parson's Nose, put in comments "finished up Clogwyn y Person Arête. And log Clogwyn y Person Arête, put in comments "started via Parson's Nose

2. Log Gashed Crag, put in comments "first n pitches, finished via Munich Climb". Log Munich Climb, put in comments "approach via first n pitches of Gashed Crag"

I would very definitely NOT add a new route to the database!

 

1
Michael Hood - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

However there are some combos that are done quite frequently, probably because it evens the grade out.

The example that comes to (my) mind is  Tarantula/Tantalus (E1 5b) which gives 2 5b pitches at E1 but the other way round (not in the database) gives a steady VS.

GarethSL on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

Just log them both and make a note. I did this, for example, after doing a combination of Via Fellici up the Spazzacaldiera then the last few pitches of the NE Ridge, finishing up the Fiamma. Three 'separate' loggable routes in one outing and all done as continuations of the other (with the exception of the first few pitches of the ridge).

Remember. Your logbook is for you and you alone, so as long as you're consistent and happy with it then no worries.

Simon Caldwell - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

That's true. Oxine (VS 4c) and Jacob's Media (HS 4a) are a couple of others usually done this way. And White Streak/Honeysuckle Corner (HS 4b).

Dom Goodwin - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Ok, that’s fair enough. I can see why it might cause annoyance. I guess there’s just no good solution, though as I said initially, it’s obviously not a big deal, was just curious if there was a better solution I hadn’t realised...

Personally, I’m not keen to tick a route I’ve only partially done as I like to use logbook for a crag to list the routes I haven’t completed at a quick glance. Sometimes, it’s nice to “tick off” a crag. Yes, adding a note explains, but it’s good to have a quick way to see what’s been done without having to scrutinise details.

Post edited at 13:17
Dom Goodwin - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to GarethSL:

Gareth, that was rather my point. Yes, it’s for me alone. Different approaches will suit different people.

Some may think it pedantic, but I personally prefer only to tick a route where I’ve completed the whole thing - partly because I like to easily see what I haven’t completed. Just because the hardest pitch has been climbed, there may still be other pitches with merit, worth going back for another time...

So I guess, I’m back to my original position that for me, just not ticking anything works best. Just wondered if others had a solution that had not previously occurred to me. The suggestion to create new route combinations is the only one, but I can see it has very reasonable objections.

 

Dom Goodwin - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

So perhaps the conclusion should be that the solution to add a “new” route is acceptable in certain specific rather limited cases. My initial examples would not qualify. I think Soapgut/Chimney Route (which I did yesterday) is a better example.

1
Simon Caldwell - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

Personally I'd say it's reasonable when the combination is a commonly climbed route in its own right. In most of the above examples, they're done that way far more than in their original form.

Dom Goodwin - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

But under that definition, the continuation of Clogwyn y Person arete after Parson’s Nose would qualify, which you earlier suggested to log with a note, so perhaps it’s a little more complicated than that. Maybe the combination does deserve inclusion as it is a logical and frequently done route? Anyway, I won’t be adding it. ;-)

beardy mike - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

Do you really "tick" entire crags?

Dom Goodwin - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

I’ve managed a few. Easier ones. Gives me some amusement. ;-)

I’m more interested in the actual climbing than ticklists, but sometimes it is nice to have climbing objectives. For instance, it would be great to do every route in Steve Ashton’s 100 classic climbs in North Wales, though it’s highly unlikely I’ll ever manage it.

I guess I’ve grown up being used to having long term objectives after completing the Munro’s at a relatively early age...

Babika - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

If looking at your logbook and seeing all green bothers you when some are only partially completed then you probably have to tick the DNF box to differentiate. 

Personally I go with everyone else who says log both routes and make a comment to yourself in the notes. I often do this if I hang on the rope or need help on a particular move. It's only for me after all - it just reminds me how I actually did it. 

Dom Goodwin - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to Babika:

I’m very happy to see all green! But personally, I like to have completed a route in its entirety to put a tick next to it. As previously explained, ticking with a note may work for some, but not if you like to see which routes have been entirely completed.

I don’t think the dnf option is suitable because it implies failure so skews statistics (not just mine, also for the route). So looks like I’ll stick with my current approach of simply not logging these routes in the absence of better suggestions.

Pay Attention - on 03 Jul 2018
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

Why not create your own database / spreadsheet for an objectively accurate personal record of how much of each route (metres or %) was climbed.

If you use metres (assuming you use a marked rope) then it's simple calculations to get the total footage that has been climbed for both routes.

I don't think the discussion has yet covered the often encountered situation where you start one climb and then  ... have to improvise an escape.  This might be a climb in its own right, may be more epic than a named climb.  Darkness, avalanches, incoming tides and Scottish traditions are the main causes of route loss in my experience.

 

Assuming you've done it, what does your logbook say for Avalanche / Red Wall / Longlands continuation?   It's in the Lliwedd logbook.  The parts have been altered over the years so show differently in different guidebook versions.  

If you haven't done it, how would you score it?

Dom Goodwin - on 04 Jul 2018
In reply to Pay Attention:

You seem to have forgotten the considerable danger of being chased off route by midges.

I was on Lliwedd on Sunday, but preferred to approach by The Sword and Route II rather than Avalanche. As it happens, that particular combination is listed - I certainly wouldn’t tick Route II otherwise after missing half of it, despite The Sword being harder and a great direct approach to The Quartz Babe.

Pretty much impossible to give an accurate assessment of how much of Red Wall was climbed by the correct route given that the description seems to vary in different guides and I still have no idea what the correct line for the first pitch is supposed to be, and suspect I could return a few times and be none the wiser. Pretty sure we were in the right place for most if not all of the other pitches. Though on Longland’s, the middle pitch seemed a little scruffy and poorly defined.

Pay Attention - on 04 Jul 2018
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

> You seem to have forgotten the considerable danger of being chased off route by midges.

>

I'm not a compleationist ....

You did well to climb the Sword.  I failed on it years ago.  Rain came in so had to abseil off.  While abseiling I saw a large block fall towards me.  It split not far above me and the two pieces went past on either side. 

  

 

 

Babika - on 04 Jul 2018
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

> You seem to have forgotten the considerable danger of being chased off route by midges.

I sympathise. The midges were so bad on Lliwedd when i did A/R/L that i climbed with a buff pulled totally over my face finding that I could see through the cotton. 

Made for some slightly weird photos.

Dom Goodwin - on 04 Jul 2018
In reply to Pay Attention:

Yikes, sounds scary. The Sword is a great pitch. I only seconded it. The early hard move out left is the crux, but at least it’s well protected, though rope drag is a concern on such a long pitch, particularly when there’s a traversing bit very early on, and we were only on a single rope too, which wasn’t best. There are some more hard moves further on up and the protection is less good, so it did feel a bit unrelenting.

Lovely scenic belay just past The Quartz Babe. Managed to get a nice photo with the Babe, Glaslyn and Crib Goch. ;-)

Dom Goodwin - on 04 Jul 2018
In reply to Babika:

Sounds entertaining. The photos rather than the actual climbing/midges, I mean.

We were badly assaulted on Horned Crag, though luckily they didn’t find us until the easier pitches high up. Fortunately, we didn’t have their company on Sunday, though they arrived in force outside the pub later on.

Post edited at 10:06
DubyaJamesDubya - on 04 Jul 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

> If you look up first world problems in the encylopedia Britannica there will in future be a picture of this thread.

Weren't you contributing to thread on the colour of Wild Country Rocks just recently?

beardy mike - on 04 Jul 2018
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Haha - fair cop Although I was rather arguing that the colours or the way they were applied didn't really make much difference, thus pointing out that it was another first world problem.

Post edited at 12:10
DubyaJamesDubya - on 06 Jul 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

Fair enough although any issues relating to recreation could be viewed in that way

beardy mike - on 06 Jul 2018
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

You could indeed. I guess it's where you draw the line with regards problems that make you sweat and how vexed you get in general. Personally I get vexed by Trump, global warming and antivaxers, not so much whether I have the ability to note every permutation of a possible ascent of what is a contrived game anyway. Guidebooks are meant to be a guide, not a hard and fast thing to adhere to - the logbooks here are an extension of that. So in summation, if the OP wants to do all routes in their own right without any variations, then he should just not award himself a tick. Just like if you dog a route you don't get the full tick (OK maybe I'm on shaky ground with the comparison). But in general I'd say there are other things you could worry about more...

Dom Goodwin - on 06 Jul 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

Far more vexing than the original question (where I stated that it was just a curiosity, no big deal) has been people telling me not to worry about it (I wasn’t particularly) and lots of posts restating points from my original post as if I hadn’t already thought of them and telling me to log routes in a way that Id already explained I preferred not to do!

Thankfully, there have also been a couple of well thought out posts and the odd humourous one too, but yes, the conclusion as I rather expected is that what works for me is to stick to only logging routes that I’ve completed (and I’m talking about deliberately climbing a different route rather than having wandered a few yards away from a guidebook line).

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beardy mike - on 07 Jul 2018
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

> Far more vexing than the original question (where I stated that it was just a curiosity, no big deal) has been people telling me not to worry about it (I wasn’t particularly) and lots of posts restating points from my original post as if I hadn’t already thought of them and telling me to log routes in a way that Id already explained I preferred not to do!

The perils of posting on ukdating To your massive credit it seems you've taken it in good humour. Don't know what the answer is other than making notes...

 

Dom Goodwin - on 07 Jul 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

Maybe coming up with a more inspiring topic for any future post might help. ;-)

beardy mike - on 07 Jul 2018
In reply to Dom Goodwin:

I promise not to bang on about galvanised steel wire rope diameters and ferrule alloy type


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