UKC

I have recently found out that someone aka Rich from the orange house has bolted some trad routes that i developed near Finestrat in Spain.

I am really P**sed! one of the routes he's bloody bolted was my first trad route that i lead as a first ascent. What i cannot understand is why the hell he did this. The routes in question had clear evidence that they had been developed i.e. dangerous loose rocks removed and abseil bolt points created.

This area was developed by myself and two local climbers long before Rich got his bloody bolting hands on it.

Many of the routes he's bolted follow classic trad lines of modest grade, and therefore have plenty of natural protection.

What do you reckon i should do? demand he takes his bolts out? demand he removes his route descriptions from his website?

In reply to PinkPixie:

Maybe e-mail or call Rich or Sam directly at the Orange House and talk it through in a reasonable and adult way?

Just an idea?

John

In reply to PinkPixie:

Dear Pink

If this is the case, buy a re-chargable angle grinder and sort it out.

Norrie

In reply to PinkPixie:

i think johns suggestion is better than norries.

1-0 to john

In reply to Norrie Muir:
Nope norrie wins

In reply to SI A:

Angle grinder definately

2-1 to Norrie

In reply to pigeonjim: 2-1 to Norries suggestion.

In reply to PinkPixie: 3-1 then!

In reply to PinkPixie:

Angle grinder, and bolt his front door

In reply to wcdave:

doesnt angle grinding bolts destroy the rock around it.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Now is he to sort out the bolts or the bolter with the angle grinder?

In reply to Jumper:

actually thats quite funny

In reply to Jumper:

lmao

In reply to Charadin:


Probably both to make sure it doesn't happen again

In reply to wcdave:

I'm with norrie. 4-1 against John. Bolting trad routes should not be sorted out in private, it should be sorted out in public so everyone is aware of whats going on.
p

In reply to SI A:

Dear SI

Only if you are useless and uncoordinated.

Norrie

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

<sniff>

and now everyone's ganging up on me

<sob>

Seriously. Agree that retro-bolting perfectly good trad routes is undesirable. If the OP is truly as outraged as it sounds then making this known to Rich may a) help resolve current situation and b) reduce chance of it happening again.

But I also agree that it's far more entertaining to stir everyone here up about it!

J

In reply to Moacs:

Dear John

Are you a Philistine or a hypocrite?

Norrie

In reply to Hotbad Peteel: maybe we could put his head on a stick and leave it as a warning to others

In reply to Norrie Muir: I see the work of a spell checker in that last post.

In reply to johnbale:

bolt the stick and hang his head on a chain
p

In reply to dark_star:

Nah! he's old enough to know how to spell properly.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Hi Norrie

Eh? Neither in this context I think, but happy to be put straight.

Cheers

John

In reply to dark_star:

Dear dark

Is that all you can contribute to a climbing topic?

Mind you, if I asked you if you were a retro bolter, you would think I spelt retard wrong, for all you know about climbing.

Norrie

In reply to PinkPixie: Why not email the 'bolter' and ask him to contribute here, so he can give his justifications for bolting low grade trad lines.

In reply to Moacs:

Well it's the best idea so far... God help us from the self-appointed ethics police!

To the OP - OK, you're aggrieved. But go talk with Rich.

Mick

In reply to PinkPixie:

what is the local ethic?

talk to Rich about it.

In reply to Mick Ward:

The person concerned seems to work for somewhere that regularly reads here, and also advertises here. Its normal for bolting to be brought straight to the attention of everyone. Yes the first ascentionist is aggreived but if he wasnt the first ascentionist but just somebody else who new they were trad lines, what should he do then. Could he email Rich and ask what hes upto. Is Rich the person to decide on the ethics. In my opinion no because hes bolting sodding trad lines. I think this is the best place for it, in public where actions can be judged rather in private where you can only have a fight.
p

In reply to PinkPixie:

Were the routes notified to the relevant "authorities" and guide-book (and web-page) writers as First Ascents? ie are they "officially" established routes?

Or is everyone just supposed to know, automatically? (Not clear in the OP)

In reply to wcdave:


Dude! He's dissing your new routes!

In reply to Niall: If Pink Pixie is who I think it is, he is a she, and the trad routes should not have been bolted just like that

In reply to Dominion:

Dear Dominion

From the OP "This area was developed by myself and two local climbers long before Rich got his bloody bolting hands on it.", do you think the "local climbers" would know the score about new routing? Or from your experience of new routing, you know better - what "authorities", do you report new routes?

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Dunno. Some people like to keep crags to themselves, and don't advertise that a) the crag is there, or b) there are routes on it.

The UK seems to have a system of notification. If PinkPixie's routes are in guidebooks, then Rich is clearly in the wrong.

If they are not, then how is he supposed to know, other than by telepathy?

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

I'm afraid that I disagree. In this world, many things do get sorted (amicably!) in private. If such private mediation doesn't work, then, of course, one can go public. And, these days, it's very easy to go public - just press the submit button.

But best to do 'private' first - imho.

Mick

In reply to Dominion: by the ab bolts placed by the OP perhaps

In reply to Mick Ward:
I only disagree as the damage has been done already. Its difficult to repair the damage to rock. I dont see what use can be done by talking in private to the guy whos bolted these routes. Hes obviously of the opinion that its alright as he bolted them. Its a public issue unless the rock is on private ground (even then it should be a public issue) and the way to handle public issues is in public. bolting routes brings down the level for everybody so everybody loses in the asame way that everybody gains depending on personal climbing ethics. to discuss this in private neither solves the problem nor discourages people from unilaterally retro bolting in the future.
p

In reply to GraemeA at home:

Dear Graeme

Please, don't get too practical and obvious.

Norrie

In reply to Dominion:

The OP clealry said her routes are in Spain, what has any UK system got to do with it? Theres enough unclimbed rock in that area for everybodys tastes

In reply to Big Steve:

Theres known trad only areas in sardinia. Please don't assume that these are UK ethics, they are trad ethics.
p

In reply to Mick Ward:

Dear Mick

It is OK out in the open, if, we don't shout, swear and call each other names. It should be a discussion, not a fight.

Norrie

In reply to Hotbad Peteel: sorry, you've lost me

In reply to PinkPixie: That's really out of order and just because someone posts on this forum doesn't mean it is less so; the only mitigating curcumstances is if he didn't realise they had been climbed, which sounds unlikely. The ethic is to follow the first accesionists wishes and the first accesionist to follow local ethics isn't it. I would chop them as soon as.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

quite agree. By keeping disputes like this private the consequences become accepted and teh ethics are lost. Matters like this should be discussed publically regardless of how many mates the participants have.
p

Isn't imposing these british ethics a bit rich?

In reply to Big Steve:

And the clear comparison is: "What is the process in Spain, and has PinkPixie followed it? And has Rich followed it?"

In reply to GraemeA at home:


a) hard to find out about, until you get to the top, and b) not necessarily the only route up the crag. There may be 2, 3, 4 or 15 routes up to that point.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

Ahem... not too sure about that one. Bolting ain't exactly the creation of 'Collie steps'. Only a month ago, I (tactfully) pointed out to some fellow climbers in Spain that they were pulling on chipped holds. They had no idea!



As previously stated, I'm afraid we disagree. As it happens, I know the person in question (and he's incredibly reasonable, with impeccable trad credentials). Do you know of whom you so blithely speak??



It's also another country...


Sorry, you really don't know this.

Mick

hard to find out about, until you get to the top, and b) not necessarily the only route up the crag. There may be 2, 3, 4 or 15 routes up to that point.

But what if there was a line of ab points down the route that the bolter followed and used. Surely the penny should have dropped.

Also the fact 2 locals were mentioned in OP should mean there was local knowledge. And aren't we talking about a number of routes here.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Hi Norrie,

It feels like a fight though...

Mick

In reply to Dominion:


a) Are you seriously suggesting that the bolter bolted it onsight and hence didn't know there was an ab anchor at the top!?!!

b) And if there were? None of them were bolted so what's your point?

Have you been drinking?

In reply to Mick Ward:
It feels like a fight though...

Dear Mick

Only hand bags so far, I hope it does not get nasty.

Norrie

In reply to Clinger:

Ah! I see form your profile pic that you have! Explains a lot.

In reply to PinkPixie:
The misjudgement/mistake in this case seems to be a bad one because bolting was done where natural placements existed. The confusion and debate over ethics and criteria and local rights and national standards have led to an error of judgement. All the more reason to dispense with all the variable and subjective criteria that demands in-depth knowledge of all history and all geography, and stick to one simple principle; don't bolt if there's natural pro. If everyone followed this, there would be no arguments.

In reply to GraemeA at home:


True. Not obvious if this is the case from the OP, though, whereas you seem to be making the assumption that it is. I'm asking PinkPixie if this is the case, and whether it is obvious - not making an assumption.


Well, at least "some" routes - "some" being - possibly - more than one, and that's all we know from the OP.

All I'm doing is pointing out that the detail level in the OP is not very high. It may well be 50 or 60 routes, or 2. We can't tell from the OP.

Norrie will no doubt be able to tell all of us what processes he goes through when he records a new route, who he informs and what processes he goes through beforehand to check whether a route hasn't been climbed before.

All I'm really asking is whether PinkPixie gone though a similar process in Spain (if one exists), and has Rich gone through the process of checking (if one exists).

If a process doesn't exist, and relies purely on word of mouth, then it's entirely possible this is a simple misunderstanding, rather than a malicious act by a nasty bolter (as implied).

I don't know either way, and we can't tell from the info in the OP - unless we're mind-readers...

||-)

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Hi Norrie,

Handbags OK. Nowt more though. There have been enough bitter diatribes on here to last us a few lifetimes.

Ironically, only yesterday, I got mildly criticised (once more) for not putting enough bolts in my routes. It would appear that yet more notables have thrown wobblers!

We can't win - not Rich, not me, none of us...

But hey, it's just a cosmic dance!

All best wishes,

Mick

In reply to Clinger:


You missed - or ignored - the "of modest grade" bit in the OP didn't you?

In reply to Dominion:
I don't know either way, and we can't tell from the info in the OP - unless we're mind-readers...

Dear Dominion

I know it is a complicated issue, to retro bolt or not. After reading the OP, and if it is accurate, then there should be no retro bolting.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:


Yep, I don't have an issue with that. And I agree that it may not be as cut-and-dried as presented (with minimal detail) in the OP.

In reply to Mick Ward:


>> to discuss this in private neither solves the problem...

>Sorry, you really don't know this.

It is impossible to solve the problem in public or private. The problem is that a route has been retrobolted. It is impossible to come to a solution that stops the bolts having been put in. Its a simple matter of irreversible damage. I think the ethic in a lot of the world is against retrobolting of trad routes. It is always a retrograde step (a very suitable word). What is a private discussion going to achieve. Is the bolter going to agree to apologise in public and remove the bolts. Not a very good result in my book. Making an example of the situation will help to prevent it happening again. Staying with the (damaged) status quo leads to ethics disappearing.
p

In reply to Dominion:


Eh? What has the grade got to do with it?

I was wondering if you thought people bolted things ground up without even climbing them once to see whether they thought they were worth bolting. Would you?

"That looks like a nice line. It's a modest grade so it'd only take me two ticks to have a little look. No, hang on, I won't do that, I'll just get me hilti and get cracking. No time like the present eh?"

Perhaps seeing as the route had already been cleaned (as stated by the OP) he didn't need to inspect it for loose flakes / general chossiness?

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:


So what's all this 'discussion' about, then?



Ahem, I don't think so, m'lud. 'The problem' (as stated by the OP, which, I think, makes it 'the problem', no?) was not the retroing, per se, but what to do about it.



Gosh, what result would you like? Hara-kiri???

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

>> It is impossible to solve the problem in public or private.

>So what's all this 'discussion' about, then?

The ideal result as far as I see it is for the bolts to be chopped and an example to be made of it. I don't think much better has ever come of retrobolting. We're not talking about bolting new lines, which is almost accepted by all in the UK now (as long as its the right type of rock), but retrobolting. I can't think of anywhere where retrobolting is not controversial and frowned upon.
p

In reply to Clinger:


Probably quite a lot if "a modest grade" is "Diff" and the bolter can onsight 8a. However, no detail about the trad grade, so we can't make that judgement, can we?


And that is really blatantly obvious, isn't it? I've climbed bolted routes (not many, admittedly - half-a-dozen or so) where there are still loose holds, and the routes are generally chossy. Horseshoe Quarry, to be more specific.

And I know those routes had been climbed frequently, and cleaned frequently - and there was still loose rock on them.

So, which actual crag are we on about? And what grade? Can't tell from the OP, can we? No detail.

Do I need to go into yet more detail about why we need more detail from the OP before we make judgements? I think the 2nd post on this thread has the correct approach to this situation.

All;
OK, whatever the ethics, the bolts are there....and the trad placements haven't gone, have they? so what is to stop both kinds of climbing going on? If you want to trad, then trad (although gear placements as an ab point is hardly purist) and if you want to thrash around on bolts, then so be it. I don't know the crag or route, and this whole discussion is becoming a glorious typical RT bunfight....but if I turned up there and wanted to trad the route, what's to stop me? If I have the discipline necessary to trad in the first place, can't I ignore the bolts?

Sxx

In reply to Sarah G:

Are you serious Sarah. Think of it a different way. go and stick a line of bolts up Parthian shot. If your on the crux and getting a bit scared your not allowed to clip the bolt as your going for the trad ascent. If you fall off you've got to take a proper trad fall and potentially die on the rocks beneath you. Are you really going to avoid clipping the bolt when the alternative could be death? Is it still E9?
p

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Hi Norrie

Still waiting to see why you thought I was a hypocrite or a Philistine?

Remembering of course that we don't want a fight...

; )

John

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:
Yeah, I'm serious, but then I don't ramp about at E9, and Rich hasn't bolted E9. So using an extreme example like that is a bit specious. If the trad climber wimps out and grabs a bolt, then he hasn't trad climbed....he's sport climbed and can't claim the route. Discipline.

Sxx

In reply to Dominion:

*sigh* I give up. I am not used to failing to get my point across quite so comprehensively as this but it seems I have met my match.

Could I sign off however by suggesting that it might be time you amended your profile a bit? Particularly this sentence fragment...

"read lots of books (about climbing) and lots of climbing related stuff on this site, but won't pretend I know all that much about it 'cos I ain't been climbing for too long."

Simply deleting the word "won't" and rewording the rest of the sentence a little ought to do it.

In reply to Sarah G:

I'm serious too. If someones limit is E1 then by bolting it it reduces the seriousness and it stops being E1. It also fails to prepare people for the experience they'll get in the mountains which is waht rock climbing is ultimately about, surviving in the mountains on your way to the top and back down. Everything else is just a convenience to make it easier. I only boulder btw so can't be guilty of being elitist in that statement.
p

In reply to Sarah G:

HP is right on this one. In France pretty well all the low cliffs are heavily bolted, limestone or granite, and you can't just ignore them, they change the whole nature of climbing. The danger is virtually nonexistent with a great big ring very 10 or 15 feet... like always having a ledge to step off the climb onto. It become much more of a gymnastic exercise.

It can still be enjoyable but it's not the same.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


R U Ken Wilson in disguise Bruce?

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

You've previously said, "Is the bolter going to agree to apologise in public and remove the bolts. Not a very good result in my book." You're now saying, "The ideal result as far as I see it is for the bolts to be chopped and an example to be made of it." Please think about it, Mr Peteel. Your logic is a tad askew...


As previously stated, t'aint the UK! You may find that cultural imperialism doesn't travel too well.



Nonsense! Hundreds of routes were retroed (by their FA) in Dorset.

Whatever the merits of this case, it's a moveable feast. As I mentioned earlier, I've been criticised for not putting enough bolts in my routes. Before I leave Portland, I'll definitely retro at least one of my routes (FA solo), 'cos I don't want anyone to be hurt on it.

If you'll excuse me, sleepy byes... See you tomorrow.

Mick

In reply to Bruce Hooker: (and HP)
Sure, and that's the difference between sport and trad, and why there are proponents of both. It just seems a shame that there *has* to be such a dichotomy on this, particulary as I understand it, Rich has bolted lower-grade stuff. And If I can ignore bolts when I trad (but not chocolate when it's offered or even just in the same room) they why can't anyone else? Sure, clip into a bolt if you wish....but then no, you don't get to claim the route as trad.

Flippin' hell, don't people have any self-discipline anymore?

Sxx

In reply to Moacs:

Dear John

This is a serious issue, as I hope you agree, so when you posted "But I also agree that it's far more entertaining to stir everyone here up about it!", I think it a reasonable question I asked of you. So, are you a Philistine or a hypocrite?

Norrie

PS Remember, it is a question, not a statement.

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:

Dear Mick

More like the Barbie of online climbing.

Norrie

In reply to Sarah G:

I doubt you have the self discipline either. If you thought you were going to fall off a trad route then you'd be scared. If there was a bolt there then you'd clip it and not be scared. Trad grades include the scariness of a route. by sticking big safe bolts on it you remove that, regardless of whether you use them or not. Climbing a route knowing that you can clip bolts but dont want to is not as hard on the mind as knowing you cant fail.
p

In reply to Clinger:


Dunno why that is. You seem to be quite incapable of understanding that there isn't enough detail in the OP for anyone to make a valid judgement about anything in it. Other than that they probably need to talk to Rich about it in person.

In reply to Dominion:

I dont see why you need mor detail. Its a trad route, its been retrobolted. Thats bad. get over it.
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

Dear Hotbad

I've made that point to him as well, but it is too complicated for Dominion to understand.

Norrie

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

I haven't read all previous posts but...it is well accepted that you need to follow local ethics and until we know what those are we aren't in a position to judge.

In reply to PinkPixie:

I think this thread is a bit harsh(I've only read the first half so if it all turns around in the second I apologise).

I'm sure if you just get in touch with Rich or Sam they can easily sort it out. Seems a bit shallow and bitchy to start a thread about it and slag them off behind their back.

Ever thought about getting a pair and sorting your problems out personally.

Andy

In reply to AndyH1710:

Dear Andy

I don't recall anybody slagging Sam in this thread.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Neither do I. I was just saying that they could email/phone Sam about the issue since as she is married to Rich I imagine they have some conatact now and again. And since Sam posts on here and Rich doesn't it may be easier to contact Sam.

Sorry for the confusion, Andy

Andy

In reply to AndyH1710:

Dear Andy

I only pointed it out, as the thread has not got out of hand yet and nobody is slagging anybody yet and hopefully it remains so. I should think they have some sort of contact if they are married.

Norrie

In reply to PinkPixie: they say there's no such thing as bad publicity eh - interestingly in a fit of boredom i clicked on the orange house website (mentioned in the OP) for the first time after months if not years of seeing it bounce round on UKC . . .

In reply to Sarah G:

You're totally failing to understand the point. It's not about discipline,it's about totally changing the experience. However well you discipline yourself to ignore the bolts, you *know* they're there and that in extremis you *could* clip them. That changes the entire "head game" that is so much a part of the trad experience.

Flippin' hell, don't people understand how much a part of trad the "head game" is anymore?

In reply to PinkPixie:
(a) I think this is probably a troll which hsa sucked a lot of people in.

(b) if its not, then Im in total agreement with everything hotbad peteel has said.

In reply to Rob Naylor:
No, she clearly doesnt.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:


See my post at 22:07 where I agree that it's bad that it has been retro-bolted.

In reply to Rob Naylor:


Lots of people, when they go back lots of times and repeat a route, and still think it's the same grade, when it is no longer an onsight...

"Oh, it's an easy HVS/E1" - when you've climbed it 14 times already...

In reply to Norrie Muir:

As Si said I think this is probably a troll. However I am willing to be sucked in because too much of this happens on this site for real anyway.

If you have a problem with someone, or something they have done, why the f*ck come on an internet forum and bitch about it? It is pointless.

Get a f*ckin pair of balls and contact the person directly instead of behaving like a 7 year old girl.

Andy

In reply to AndyH1710:
Dear Andy

It that me you are on about or moaners in general?

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Lol, not you Norrie. The whole reply was aimed at the OP.

Andy

In reply to PinkPixie:

How long till the reply from the Orange House?

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Yes. And I made a serious suggestion as to how to get it resolved in the most direct way possible.


OK. I was confused by the fact that the part of my statement you quoted was the one that said that my *serious* view was "Agree that retro-bolting perfectly good trad routes is undesirable" and went on to give a rationale for why I'd made the original serious suggestion for a path to resolving it: "If the OP is truly as outraged as it sounds then making this known to Rich may a) help resolve current situation and b) reduce chance of it happening again.".

I then appended "But I also agree that it's far more entertaining to stir everyone here up about it!" to indicate that the other route (not talking to the perpetrator) was likely just to produce an internet debate rather than a resolution.


I think the answer is neither. I'm someone who doesn't agree with retro-bolting, making a suggestion that the only real way for the OP to get a satisfactory resolution is to talk to the guy that did it, and being mildly entertained by the direction these keyboard discussions go. So, yes, the answer is definitely neither and I'm glad it wasn't a statement.

Kind regards

John

In reply to PinkPixie:

Can I just say...

PISSING MYSELF LAUGHING

at the ukc ethics police getting all wound up about the bolting of pissy Spanish crag that they've never heard of, will never visit, and don't actually give a toss about.


Or create one of the best TROLLS that UKC has seen for several months!

9/10 Well done!!

In reply to Alun:
I disagree, a troll that gets almost 100 replies in under 18 hours deserves 10/10!

In reply to Alun: I wander who Pinkpixie is? If this wasd genuine I would have expected Sam or Rich to post!

WELL I NEVER DID!!!

Goodmorning you lot, I was having a lie in when my phone went beep and I was told to check out RT feel quick...

Rich is climbing Puig today so will not be back till late.

I dont really want to speak for him but will put my little bit into the pot-

Pinkpixie - who are you?

Are you a troll? I think so!
Which routes and crag are we talking about?
When did you last climb at said crag?


Big point for you all to know.

RICH WOULD NEVER EVER BOLT A TRAD CRAG!!

Sam Orange

In reply to Sam M:

Aye, but you WOULD say that, wouldn't you?

In reply to PinkPixie:
To cross-reference, people may be interested in my 'best troll of recent times thread'
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=166528

In reply to PinkPixie:

Just noticed its says abseil bolts inplace..

You guys have all fallen for a big troll as no abseil points are to be found on the new crag that Rich has just developed.

How fast you all fell for that one!

Also, re Mick comments, we found out last week that someone has added some bolts to the Heaven Cant Wait line!! cant please all the people can we Mick?

Sam Orange

In reply to ultra montane:

Yeh, cause its true!!

Sam

In reply to Sam M:

I believe you believe your post.
Anyway, we really do need more info from the OP, and his lack of further posts seems to suggest TROLL.
Good windup though.

In reply to Sam M:

And it certainly wasn't cleared of loose rock!

(I'm not saying it's a pile of choss like )

In reply to Jus:

At last someone sensible!!

Sam still laughing Orange

In reply to Norrie Muir:

You nasty little man.

Sam

In reply to Sam M:
Dear Sam

I know it would be pointless asking you to refrain from lowering the tone of this thread, by calling people names.

Please don’t send me any more e-mails, I delete all e-mail without reading them from people I don’t know.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

With regard to that thread I didnt realise Cecile Rittweger had replied. As I can't find it by searching I assume the whole thread was pulled.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

You are a real person?

I sent that email because yet again you brought up a subject that you knew would hurt me. Why if you dont know me would you want to hurt me?

Sam

In reply to Simon Lee:

Dear Simon

She did reply and if I quoted it on this thread, the whole thread would be pulled. I do have some restraint, so I will not reveal it's content.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Expletives or whatever aside was her 8a onsight vindicated as I have just checked and it is still on planetfear http://www.planetfear.com/news_detail.asp?n_id=5159

In reply to AndyH1710:


I wasn't slagging him off. I was asking some advice about what to-do! the plain fact is that he recently advertised these 'new' routes in this forum as few weeks back and i want people to realise that he had actually bolted existing trad lines. If he can advertise on this forum surely i have the right to air my grievences.

I will be speaking to Rich in the near future. Rich knows who the local new routers are. Why did he not check with us before bolting the lines, the ab points are so obvious i would be astonished if he turns round and says he didn't think the area had been developed previously.

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:

Is that good or bad? I don't think I am.

In reply to PinkPixie:
Oh dear, you've overdone the troll now, just as it was going so well.

On the unlikely assumption that you're actually being serious, perhaps you should restrict your new routing in future to somewhere without a predominantly sport ethic?

In reply to PinkPixie:

You can speak this afternoon, why wait.

Also why not say who you are for real and stop hiding behind a made up name.

And name the local routers please.

Sam

In reply to PinkPixie:

boo frickin hoo - it's a sport venue. it's probably the local ethic. How do you know they weren't climbed ages ago anyway?

In reply to Sam M:

You are very quick to make me out to be a liar! I was and still am very proud of the routes i developed in the area we
named 'the valley of the rocks' even if they have now been bolted.

A lot of time and effort went into developing the lines we did in this area.

Why did Rich decide to bolt the lines i mean many of the lines were below E1. The lines were strong, the gear good.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

wow, are you a local climber in my area? you sound like you know so much about the local ethics here!

In reply to Sam M:

I am not hiding i just don't have a business to plug!

My name is Harriet Mason i have been living in Finestrat for 3 years.

I would be very happy to meet up with Rich but at the moment i am in the uk.

In reply to PinkPixie:
I've spent several weeks over the years climbing bolted routes in the area, all have been below E1, so there doesn't appear to be much of a local ethic against bolting. A quick search of the Rockfax database shows 550 such routes.
I know that low grade mountain routes tend not to be bolted, but looking at the web site, these don't appear to be mountain routes.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

The issue isnt about bolting low grade routes, the issue is about RETRO bolting any routes.
p

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

er my point is that they were already developed trad routes! why bolt them.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

"Why did Rich decide to bolt the lines i mean many of the lines were below E1"

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

ok i'll rephrase then Simon. The issue is not about bolting low grade routes, the isse is about retro bolting low grade routes. The issue that most people have raised (higher up if you acre to read it) is of retrobolting. Who cares if their low grade.
p

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I suppose i just don't get why anyone would want to bolt a line that has so much loveley natural protection. i know it goes on i just personally don't see the point.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

So where there is a bolting ethic in an area it's fair enough to bolt exisitng trad lines? Does this go for, say, cheedale because I've often thought Chee Tor would make a good sport venue.

It seems strange how many Rocktalkers are defending this retrobolting, is it because you have all stayed at the Orange House. There certainly seems to be some clique which thinks the sun shines out of Sam and Rich's arses and can therefore do no wrong.

In reply to PinkPixie:
I agree with you, and the first time I climbed in Spain I bored everyone (hard to believe I know) by keeping on about the bolts next to the perfect gear placements.

But that's apparently the accepted norm, and who am I to argue with it?

In reply to PinkPixie:

This sounds like the same a***hole who bolted the Bernia Ridge, a straightforward trad mountaineering route with natural spikes, flakes and cracks all along it (see thread on here a few days ago) - perhaps his drill has penile significance (?).

Chop the ones he put on your routes, and the Bernia Ridge while you're at it!

In reply to Tyler:
If you look at my very occasional posts on the subject of the Orange House then obviously you won't include me in that clique.

Is the local ethic in the Costa Blanca against retro-bolting? Given the lack of trad routes on established crags outside the mountains then I rather doubt it.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

you are joking! trad climbing is alive and kicking here. there are many established trad crags and trad new routing goes on all the time.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Don't you think that the few people who try to reverse the "all bolt" trend deserve our support? What harm can it do to encourage a more balanced approach?

In reply to MAC:

Retro-bolting is for saps. If something's seen a lot of traffic, why retro-bolt?

Recently in Hong Kong people have been running around with a hilti retro-bolting a load of established lines. It's quite pathetic.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


I don't know any more than you but it would seem as though some local climbers, at least, want to designate some crags as trad. Prehaps the problem isn't with the local ethic but with outsiders ignorance of that ethic.

In reply to Norrie Muir:



Is Barbie a compliment up your way then?

Would that be Klaus Barbie, the butcher of Lyons?

A strange reference if it is.

In reply to MAC:

Rich did not bolt the Bernia Ridge. As you would have seen if you had read correctly the other thread.

MAC - another troll, maybe the same person.

I am still not sure that pinkpixie is a real person!!

Rich is wasting his time reading the long thread on his machine as we speak. He will post in a sort while.

Sam Orange

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

more like http://barbie.everythinggirl.com/

In reply to PinkPixie:

I dont only post ONLY because I have a business, I have as much right as anyone to be here.

I have a commercial title which I prefer not to use.

Why did you not come down here then and say hello, and tell us about your routes and put them in the new routes book so everyone would know about them..

Hurry up and reply Rich I want to go out!!

Sam ORange

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
That was the best gag from the film Rat Race, when a car-load of kids demands to go to a 'Barbie Museum' in the middle of nowhere and finds a warehouse full of neo-nazis and nazi memorabilia.

Probably somewhat off-topic, however.

In reply to Tyler:

>It seems strange how many Rocktalkers are defending this retrobolting

I for one am opposed to it I just can't be arsed getting involved in this thread as it's degenerated into the usual state of affairs with clueless posters...

>There certainly seems to be some clique which thinks the sun shines out of Sam and Rich's arses and can therefore do no wrong.

Indeed...

In reply to Derbyshire Ben:

Thats a silly thing to say, why would anyone think that, I just think people are more sensible that you allow them credit for!

Sam Orange

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Dear Bruce

Wrong Barbie, I know you have difficulties with reality, but why should you have anything in common with Klaus Barbie. Thus is the barbie I was referring to http://barbie.everythinggirl.com/

Norrie

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

WE dont mind this in the public eye at all

Sam Orange

In reply to Sam M:

Didn't mean to offend, I was simply agreeing with Tyler as there doesn't seem to be much opposition to what appears to be a case of "Retro-Bolting Without Consulting The First Ascentionist".

In reply to bluebrad:

Again you are accusing me of being a liar. and no i did not post that Rich bolted the Bernia Ridge.

I can assure you that i am real.

In reply to PinkPixie:

So answer our questions then.

Which crag, which routes, who did you do them with.
why not log them the new routes book..etc etc

This thread has continued without any real facts.

Sam

In reply to Jumper:

Angle grinder, bolt his head to the door - that'd warn him!

In reply to Sam M:

If you read that again, MAC accused Rich of bolting the Bernia, ffs

Sam

In reply to Sam M:

Dear Sam

Why were you posting under "bluebrad" a few minutes ago?

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Because I am now on the PC in the bar and that person must have not logged out last time.

Sorry Bluebrad, he is in Sheffield at the moment, so bet that confused him.

Also, why do you never answer my questions about been a real person and caring about who you hurt?

Sam Orange

In reply to bluebrad:

I never implied that you could not post. YOU accused me of hiding behind my username.

i am an active member of the local climbing community in Finestrat, Orange house is not the centre of that community why should all climbers come to you tell you what we are working on?

In reply to Derbyshire Ben: I think you've hit the nail on the head there. All this talk of "local ethic" is disingenuous. Retrobolting should not take place without the consultation on the first ascentionist, regardless of whether the majority of crags in the area are bolted or not.

As for the ascentionist not recording the routes in the main protagonist's new routes book, it smacks of great arrogance that they think they shouldn't have to do any other research than looking in this book.

The routes may or may not have been retrobolted without regard to their original style, but someone who runs a business and stands to gain finacially from having an ever widening range of bolted routes on their doorstep shouldn't be so naive as to think they can bolt with impunity and not have their motives called into question.

In reply to Anonymous: Are you PinkPixie?

In reply to Sam M:

Rich posted a message a few weeks ago about a new set of crags he has developed at the base of the Puig. I went to your website and looked at the topos and too my horror realised that Rich had bolted a number of lines previously developed by myself and my fellow climbing friends. I got my friends to double check the lines on your topos before posting.

I do not understand why you are being so defensive, wouldn't you be pissed if someone bolted trad lines you had developed?

In reply to Anonymous:


You are of course assuming the same are responsible for the retro bolting the routes in question. As far as I can make out that assumption has is unproven.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Norrie,

Have just mailed Sam to let her know about this - it is due to a cookie being retained on the PC at the Orange House which I obviously forgot to delete.

bluebrad

In reply to Horse: That is true, but neither have I seen it denied.

In reply to bluebrad:

And yes it did confuse the hell out of as I have been away from my PC for 20 minutes so come back and found out that I had been "posting" during that time was a bit disconcerting.

bluebrad

In reply to Horse:

So the group of climbers (who originally developed the crag) 'word' is not good enough! Rich can certainly prove that he bolted the routes due to all the metal left in place.

In reply to Glyn Jones:


That's just f£$king typical of this site. As far as everyone is concerned this is all about personalities. Rich is a good guy so as far as the RT gliterati are concerned he can do no wrong. We don't know PinkPixie or anonymous so lets just attack them as trolls or whatever an brush the real issue inder the carpet.

Is Rich Orange House a slow reader? It's just that he started reading this thread over 40 minutes ago and still no word.

In reply to PinkPixie:

Go ahead and after you've finished in Spain come over to Yorkshire limestone for some more retro-debolting action!

In reply to Tyler:

thank you. i am sick being accused of being a troll or a liar. i thought the issue i posted about existing trad lines being bolted was an important issue.

I may not be a well known 'personality' but i didn't think that mattered.

In reply to PinkPixie:

That is not what I said.

I was pointing out that it has not been proven whether who you said put the bolts in did in fact do so. What evidence do you have that Person X did it? It does not follow that because bolts are there Person X must have done it.

It is equally the case that the accusation has not, yet, been denied.

In reply to Glyn Jones:

are you an idiot?

other people do have opinions you know.

In reply to Horse:

Because, as I understand it, person X claims to have developed the crag and posted details of the routes, etc on his website.

I don't know the facts, or any of the protagonists, but this was stated further up the thread.....

In reply to Horse:

Rich advertised the fact that he had bolted these lines here on uk climbing! there are also a lovely set of topos on the orange house website.

In reply to PinkPixie:

Thanks for clearing that up, nice clear statement. If you said that earlier I must have missed it.

In reply to Horse: The original post is here http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=164091 and contains a link to the topos.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Even odder, my daughters had a lot of these when they were younger, I wouldn't have thought they were appropriate for someone of your years though... mine have grown out of them and they are just over a third of your age :~)

In reply to Tyler:


I have never stayed at the Orange House and after reading posts from Sam, over the past year or so, I know I never will. Maybe I'm wrong but the posts never really sell what I would want in a place to stay.

In reply to PinkPixie:

PinkPixie, are these the routes in question? -

http://www.theorangehouse.net/areas.htm

In reply to PinkPixie: Maybe, to discuss this in an amicable way, you should have gained others opinions first, and you should not have made the original post so personal.

You could have anonymised the post, and then on the basis of the responses you received, approached Rich about it?

I can see you are miffed, and I am not saying what has happened is right or wrong, justified or not, but the grievance should have been handled differently.

If Rich told you to sod off or would not communicate with you regarding this issue, then you might have had good reason to name and shame and flame...

All this is turning into is a bun fight with accusations being thrown here there and everywhere - not productive in the least, and is certainly not helping to resolve the problem...

Over and out

In reply to PinkPixie:
Hi Harry,I thought it was you. Remember me, xmas / new years 2004?

Hope you are all well

In reply to PinkPixie:

OK. Good time to summarise.

PinkPixie (OP) claims to have done 1st ascent of lines and that they're now retro-bolted. I've no reason not to believe her.

Sam claims Rich didn't do it. I've no reason not to believe her.

Several people feel retro-bolting is inappropriate. Some suggest a direct Rich-PinkPixie chat is best way to resolve it.

Then there's quite a lot of the usual padding (I'm guilty too) of troll accusations, banter, pedantry and off-topic jokes. Some of the posts have been interpreted (in my view misinterpreted) as a defence of Sam/Rich.

Then there's the usual deviation into discussion of whose ethics should apply and what constitutes evidence.

In other words lots of people talking at cross-purposes (or at best unclear purposes) with limited facts.

So, to go waaaay back to the original post. Pixie asked a question - "what to do?"

My answer would be:
Talk to Rich and ascertain whether he did retro-bolt these lines and what the rationale is.
Explain that as 1st ascentionist you'd rather this wasn't done - and that finding out first ascentionist wishes is good form generally.
Agree a way forward - taking off hangers/chopping/takingthe argument to the real protagonist etc.

Not sure there really is another way?

John

In reply to Bingly Bong:

Somewhere further up I posted about why I thought this should be handled in public. There is no problem to be resolved. The crag has been bolted and that cant be undone as it involved a hilti. If it was kept private the issue would disappear and retrobolting would be seen to be acceptable. Its not and should not be and discussing it in public makes sure that people can see that retrobolting is not on. There is nothing that can be done other than chopping the bolts and as such the best result is for an example to be set to keep ethical boundaries in place. The crag had obvious lower offs so it would be clear that it was a trad route and therefore shouldnt be bolted.
p

In reply to Moacs:

It seems pretty clear who retrobolted the lines. Its on a website marked as newly bolted lines by X.
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:
Why did the OP ask these questions then?

>What do you reckon i should do? demand he takes his bolts out? demand he removes his route descriptions from his website?

In reply to Bingly Bong:
Not least because the accused has not come on here to explain his side of the story, despite Sam M's assertion that he's been reading the thread (for quite some time now).

In reply to Tyler: Well said Tyler, I agree with every word.

In reply to Bingly Bong:



I dont agree with that at all. Anonymising things just makes people disbelieve them, this thread probably wouldnt have got the light of day but for the fact that names were named. I think the OP has handled it very well, good on her. Hopefully she will get a satisfactory response.

In reply to Moacs:

"Rich Orange has bolted 30 new lines from 2 to 7a at the foot of Puig Campana, Finestrat. The topos are available as a page to download from the website."

- quote from their recent premier post.

I believe PinkPixie has already confirmed they are the routes in question.

In reply to JamieAyres:

OK.

I don't know Sam or Harriet and generally I believe people unless I've a reason not to.

So the discussion remains what to do...and the answer remains the same doesn't it?

John

In reply to Si dH:

I suspect that meant depersonalise the post rather "annoymised".

Anyway I don't see why given the very clear claim on the premier post about the bolting. At the least some explanation from the other side should be forthcoming, the silence is getting defeaning.

In reply to Si dH: Come off it!

Anonymous posters put threads up about 'what should I do?', 'I just found out...' etc etc and get tons of advice!

All that has happened here is people are getting hett up, accusing PinkPixie of trolling, Rich as being inconsiderate/bull headed, when it may well have been possible to sort out amicably!


In reply to Tony: If I was Rich I wouldnt reply either - What is the point? He's been tried and found guilty, and more or less hung!

The only 2 people that should have been communicating with each other until a resolve was either found or not, were the OP and Rich.

There are more ways to skin a cat than burning the stuff off - which has been done here.

I certainly wouldnt air a grievance on here aimed at someone (named) who posts/advertises or whatever until I had explored all courses of diplomatic and tactful means of communication/mediation with them!

Everyone has differences of opinions and would have been able to suggest their point of view for what the OP has said originally, without it being personal.

And the above is mine

Like I said - bun fight...

Mines a danish pastry please.

In reply to Moacs:

Yes, of course, you are right.

Know what I'd do if someone bolted a trad route I had put up - chop 'em.

But then, it's in Spain, and there's no long standing trad ethic to defend over there..

In reply to tony:

Hi Tony

sorry that you have had to wait for the reply from Rich, he did read the thread and then we went out into the real world!

His reply is on another thread.

Sam Orange

In reply to PinkPixie:


If you're who I think you are (met you over August Bank Holiday in Cornwall last year) then you might not be a well known "personality", but you're at least a "somewhat known" one! I think you may even be "close" to some controversial bolting elswhere

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Even odder, my daughters had a lot of these when they were younger

Dear Bruce

As both my wife and I are not sexist, we did not have Barbie dolls in our house when our children were young. Shame on you for being a sexist.

Norrie

In reply to Sam M:

Care to tell us which thread it is on?

In reply to Horse:


He is a slow typist!!

its here

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=166638&new=2382364#2382364

Sam

In reply to Rich M:

Started as a new thread as its a bit slow for some people to upload the whole thing:

Sam

In reply to PinkPixie: Order a fatwah quick

In reply to Tyler:

I do not know Rich - never met the guy - my question is because Pixie has no profile and need I say more about Anon - the reply seemed similar and so fell back to the troll position of someone goading UKC. If I'm wrong then I apologise - If I'm right then the forum doesn't need people like this.

In reply to PinkPixie:

Actually, no - nice attack - will make me more supportive of you if what you said in your original op is true

But why hide behind an anon position?

In reply to Glyn Jones:

She isn't hiding and has stated:

My name is Harriet Mason i have been living in Finestrat for 3 years.

In reply to Horse: sorry Horse, was referring to the anonymous reply supporting her

In reply to Glyn Jones:

It wasn't clear but fair enough in that case.

In reply to Horse: My thoughts are that Harriet and Rich discuss the route(s) in question. If they have been bolted then come to an agreement as to whether that means chop the bolts and smooth them over with resin mixed with sand from the bottom or the bolts stay for people to use.

Is there other options?

In reply to Glyn Jones:

Yes, boycott the orange house on principle as a lesson not to do it again.
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

that's if Rich is wrong but he could have made a mistake - this shouldn't have an impact on their legit business

In reply to Glyn Jones:

Yes he could have made a mistake. After the responses from the oranges I don't believe they give a sh&t so yes its fair. I certainly won't be heading off to the orange house. I had an open mind regarding this to start with, but following the replies I don't think there the sorts of people I would like to be the guest of.
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

Have you read Richs reply?

...of course he gives a shit, why would he spend his time and other people money bolting routes for other people to enjoy and because the demand is there..

You really should come and stay before you judge us, but then as you put on your profile

(Sometimes ventures onto trad, doesn't like sport climbing a bit. Not hard enough and too much hanging around too far from flask of tea.)

enough said..

Sam

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

Your obviously just trying to stir things up as Rich has given a reasonable reply and it is obvious that he does care what people think!

In reply to PinkPixie:

The simplest solution if some has retro-bolted existing trad routes, either intentionally or by mistake is to return to the cliff and take out the bolts.

If you do take them out make sure that you do not cause any damage to the cliff.

If they are glue-ins I believe there are two methods: either saw off the bolt as close as you can to the rock or get a drill and drill small holes in the glue, eventually the bolt will come free and you can fill in the holes with more glue and cover with rock dust.

If they have a nut, unscrew and then saw off the protruding bolt.

If you don't want this to happen again make sure that your routes are well publicised (inform the local guidebook author, local new routes book, local climbing website) and so no-one will mistakenly bolt them.

Action speaks louder than words.

Mick

In reply to parsot:

Dear parsot

As Sam has posted "All these new users registering just so they can post on this thread!! strange!!"

Norrie

In reply to PinkPixie:

Talk to him? I'm inclined to agree with you on your points. If the FA was done on natural pro then it shouldn't be bolted. However I don't know the crag, the lines or the local ethic so cannot comment further.

What I was trying to point out was that I think you are going about this the wrong way. I honestly don't see what good crying about it on here will do. Give him a phone/email or something and sort it out personally.

Andy

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Sorry I don't fully understand, are you saying that I am a new user - if so then you are mistaken. I have been registered for sometime and have posted before although admittedly not regularly. I have even had discussions with you many moons ago!

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:
If you don't want this to happen again make sure that your routes are well publicised (inform the local guidebook author, local new routes book, local climbing website) and so no-one will mistakenly bolt them.
Action speaks louder than words.

Dear Mick

I would hope bolters in future, apply the same vigour in researching to see if, the intended route has not been trad climbed before.

Norrie

In reply to parsot:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=20601
24th november 2004 in fact
p

In reply to parsot:

Dear parsot

I apologies for my mistake.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

gratefully accepted!

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I didn't play with them though. My boy never liked Ken dolls so perhaps he's not sexist then... I've been wondering about him lately.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:


Your loss.



Hmm...



An interesting, err (fumbles for tactful term) 'communication'.


Look Hotbed,

We can't go on disagreeing like this (can we?) But you really are arrogant and horribly vindictive. 'Making an example of'?? It's nasty stuff.

Rich has replied on the other thread. Does his reply make no difference to you?

If you know what's best in climbing and want to make an example of miscreants, then forget about climbing in France and Spain altogether - 'cos they're full of retroed routes (with and without the FA's permission). And, as I've previously mentioned, many crags are riddled with chipped holds.

Not your ethics; not mine either. But that's the way it is...

You would normally be told to save your ethics for your own country. Instead, Rich give an upfront reply. Be grateful.

Mick

In reply to parsot:

Dear parsot

Thanks.

Norrie

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:

Crikey, that's supposed to be "simple"? It sounds like a right hassle to me; having never been near a drill except to put up the traversing holds in the garage.
Well, if she decides to do that maybe some of her supporters on here will go along and help.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

Best make an example of bad bolting practices to try to stop people doing it again in future.
p

In reply to Norrie Muir:


Norrie,

It is very easy to get seduced by the drill. I know, I've been there. I used to be a mad bolting idiot.

Mick

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

No, it's quite simple and really good fun.

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com: Delete 'bolting' and is it not still true?

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:

Dear Mick

My point was not against bolters, even mad ones, but about lazy "new" routers.

Norrie

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:


I now have a mental image of you as a wild drilling fiend gleefully intent on de-bolting whenever called. Kind of like batman; but better clothed.

In reply to GraemeA at home: all climbers are idiots don't you know.

In reply to yer maw: exactly, why don't they just walk round the side?

In reply to PinkPixie:
not reading 222 replie so will answer original post.

if you know the guy try and talk to him and ask him why he did it ect



rich

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

Sounds like an excuse for a picnic! Now where should we all stay?

In reply to Rosie A:

lol thanks Rosie needed some light relief, feeling quite low at the mo!!

Sam

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

I usually debolt cliffs naked, just a bad habit I've developed.

In reply to Sam M:

i believe Rosie was alluding to a bolt chopping party.
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

We would love to have the people stay here that want to debolt the crag..why not? If they went for themselves looked at the area, spoke to the local climbers..made their own minds up then fine..

Sam

In reply to PinkPixie: Been reading this thread on and off for a few hours - in addition the response by Rich, which IMO should have been on this thread, now we have 2 and its very hard reading 2 threads on the same discussion.

I understand the views being thrown arround and all those involved or with viewpoints seem to be acting like children.

Firstly we need clarity, PinkPixie - you need to define which routes are the ones you were the FA, then Rich can state if he bolted those induvidual line.

If he did then ask him if he will remove them, if not, decide if you will - end of conversation.

In addition, if the area has sports routes (which rich was stating) then how is bolting the line a big problem, trad climbers can just not use the bolts, but if the area is sports, then there are lines missing and someone will eventually bolt them

please stop all the handbags at dawn stuff and stick to the facts and an adult way to come to an agreement

In reply to collism:

by - Rich M on - 18:46 Thu
Hello everybody

I´ve had a fantastic day walking on Puig. Bright and sunny and the view from my office was truely breath taking.

So to business.

I first thought the Barranco de Puig offered some good easier grade climbs about 10 years. But didn´t do much about it until late last year.

Some have questioned my motives, so I´ll tell those "some". The very easy routes on the costa are extremely popular and as such are now showing their age in polish and are no longer the routes they once were.

So having been asked many times where the closest easier crags are, I decided to bolt an easier area close by. This has been funded by the orange house bolt fund, we don´t see why only 8a climbers should benefit from this fund.

On my first inspection I did find some rather strange bolts (home made) on the top of the crag virtually on the path, and also one bolted line which goes at about 7a. Since this appeared to be someone bolting this crag...

.... I deliberatly did nothing on this crag.

Having read Ms Harriet´s thread I find it very odd that a totally trad person feels the need to bolt at all! Personally I hate hybrid climbs like this.

I HAVE NOT BOLTED ANY LINES WITH LOWER OFF BOLTS ON THEM.

All the easier lines, 6a and below were bolted on lead.

All the routes we have bolted need atleast some gardening and removal of loose material.

If you´re putting up new trad lines, they need to be declared. The ethics of this area are sport climbing. Particualy on single pitch routes.

I would never retrobolt a known trad line.

Rich


Sorry it was my idea to start a new thread not his.. Sam

In reply to Sam M: Thanks Sam, my head was doing strange things, trying to read 2 threads at once, but hey its been a long day......

In reply to collism:

Will stick this on this one as I feel what has been done is a benefit to the area for a large number of the British climbers who visit the area.

I have to say it would be very hard to tell if a route has been climbed traditionaly before hand, this I presume is not normal practice in this area and the routes appear to be very short and mostly in the lower grades (esp. the ones which are causing the fuss!).

I assume the majority of new routes in the area are sports routes (the exception being the Edwards climbs or long routes on the hills)

Have done trad routes in Morocco which have since been retro-bolted. Unless someone sat in the hotel we stayed at and looked way back in the new routes book, which may not have even be there at the time - I do not know how they would have known they had been before, would also be hard to proove. I enjoyed them and more people are enjoying them now.

From the last few trips to the Costa Blanca, there seems to be a huge demend for easy route up to 5's. Toix Oeste quiet, but looking at Far Toix Oeste, newish low grade crag - it was heaving with British climbers.

I'm not into bolting for bolting sake, but you seam to have developed a very usefull area for lower grade climbers in the Costa, at the end of the day how many people would do these routes if the remained trad?? Not many I think, but bolted I see many.

Well done.

In reply to Sam M:


Coount me in. It would be worth it to see Mick drilling whilst naked. All that vibration and all...

:-P

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

Calm down woman! Rob asleep I take it

In reply to Mike C:

Lol. No, but he's got a good sense of humour.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:
& I bet he needs it too sometimes

In reply to Mike C:

Awwww. I'm not that bad!

In reply to Sam M:


The last sentence cuts to the chase.

We can ignore the beautiful day, that there may be a shortage of easier routes, that the bolt fund has only provided bolts for 8a climbers in the past (I'm sure that's not true),that a motive for bolting routes is for the enjoyment of others etc etc(there are usually a few motives one being for the enjoyment of creating a new route and in this case possible commercial reasons for the benefit of the Orange House). All that is irrelevant.

The question is:

If you unknowingly bolted an established trad route and if you found out after that you had would you take the bolts out?

Mick

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Maybe he's a mixture and is a phypocrite or a hilistine?

Like a jagular.

()

In reply to Timmd:Or a heffalump.

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:

Hi Mick

This troll who is attempting to claim some or all and perhaps none of these trad lines, Still hasn´t declared which lines he is talking about.(hopefully they will soon).

If I have inadvertently bolted a previously bolted (?) trad line. Then the bolts would be removed by myself.

I believe this is not the case at this crag.

Many people have now climbed these new routes. The crag is still very sharp with some loose material and paths which I started through very thick undergrowth. As people have mentioned already.

Don´t see anybody saying they climbed any/some/all of these routes as trad lines with bolts in (?)

So here some ethics for you: If you climb a new trad line, make it TRAD! If you bolt call it Sport. Be open and honest about your routes by declaring them. This would avoid any attempts to retro-claim routes.

Rich

In reply to Rich M:

Just out of interest... I have gained the impression that the trend is for designating all minor and small crags sport, with a trend towards bolting up some existing trad lines (e.g. http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_route.html?id=15350, which has acquired bolts, I hear), while leaving the larger cliffs a mixture of sport and trad.

Is this impression correct, in general?

In reply to John Gillott:

Morning John.

you are right, in general yes.

Somebody is bolting existing trad lines, we don´t know who.

Missing link is a good example, it was a brill trad line when I first climbed it and I was shocked and sad when I climbed it with bolts.

However, they have used galvanised bolts so they will not last too long!!!

Rich

In reply to Rich M: Nicely put. I hope that some of the people who have posted on here can now put away their nooses and perhaps apologise to you. It's been pretty disgusting reading some of the abuse and vitriol on this thread, a lot of which has come from someone without a real active interest in either trad or sports climbing.

In reply to Rich M: Nice one Rich.
Bill

In reply to Rich M:
Be open and honest about your routes by declaring them. This would avoid any attempts to retro-claim routes.


Where is one supposed to declare new routes put up in this area?

In reply to Rob Webb:

It sounded to me like the oranges hold a new routes book but that some of the locals use a different new routes book.
p

In reply to Rich M:

I think one of the most shocking thing i have found in the last few days since i posted my orginal message has been the arrogant assumption that i am a troll and a liar by many users of this forum.

One thing that is absolutely clear is that i did develop a number of trad lines in the area you published. A number of abseil points were placed to cover groups of routes.

My routes were TRAD! why are you being so defensive and rude. an abseil point does not constitute a bloody sport route. and also the local climbers (which you are only one of) do not have a blanket ploicy of bolting. in fact your complete arrogance astounds me. Finestrat is a small place, when you found the ab points why didn't you ask the local climbers whose they were?!

one of the routes was my first ever new route which i lead on-sight and therefore is very important to me.

I ask you what would you do in my place? if someone had bolted a set of routes that you had developed? has put in time and hard graft to get them done? would you just stand back and let it happen?

I can honestly say if i was in your place the least thing i would do is make an apology of some kind instead of ranting on the forum trying to make me out to be a liar.

Many of the comments on this thread have adviced me to ask you to remove your bolts. part of me wants that but another part of me knows that my routes are gone now, ruined and claimed. what i would like is an apology or at least a post which is measured and has a level of respect in it's tone. The fact is that you did bolt my lines you may continue to deny this then i will remove your bolts for you. It's up to you.

In reply to TimS:

er sorry but it's Rich who should be apologising to me!

In reply to Rob Webb:

Hi

I suggest one should do one or more of the following:

Self publish on your own web page, not that hard really.

Email rock fax.

Email Adrian Bates.

Email David Mora he also records new routes.

Report them to Desnivel

Or even email me and I´ll put them in the new routes book.

If you´re new routing in an area, I feel it´s the new routers responsibility to find these places to avoid conflicts of new routes like this. It´s just rude not to.

I feel like I´m stating the obvious here!

Rich

In reply to PinkPixie:

You have not told which routes to apologise for! Troll

In reply to Rich M:

well let's meet up then and i'll go through the list.

In reply to PinkPixie:

Well you have all our contact details so give us a call!

Rich

In reply to Rich M:

Just out of interest did you

Search the web for the area? not that hard really.
Email rock fax?
Email Adrian Bates?
Email David Mora?
Report them to Desnivel?

Surly there is some responsibility held by anyone who wants to develop an area to research it to see if there is any history already.

In reply to PinkPixie:

You are the one who is ranting.

I wouldn't blame Rich for being defensive in view of the vitriol that's been flying. I think his response has been pretty measured under the circumstances.

Your OP was bound to cause a storm on here, a perfect blend of indignance and lack of material facts. If you read this forum you will know that such a post is bound to provoke all sorts of people into making judgements when they know little of the real facts of the case.

But why let a few facts get in the way of a flame war....

In reply to PinkPixie: I can't belive this thread had got this far without one specific route or route name being mentioned. That is why some people think you are trolling. If you are going to have a go at someone publicly include some detail. There is a web page with topos you can refer to. Have you claimed any of the routes shown there publicly? Which ones? Where did you claim them?

In reply to Bob P:

Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Only one not contacted is Desnivel but David Mora is our Valencia Community Rep and has yet to climb the routes.

Rich

In reply to Papillon:

Hi Papillon

we cant believe it either!!!

Good pubilicity for the routes though..

Rich

In reply to PinkPixie: He doesn't owe you an apology. He said that he didn't bolt any routes with lower offs. His responses haven't contained ranting. I think you should have just contacted him privately in the first place, rather than waiting until now to propose a meeting.

In reply to PinkPixie:

Well this has been fascinating...until it got ugly. I am no fan of witch-hunts.

I know neither Harriet nor Rich...but believe you are both real, and passionate about what you do.

I also think you probably share a closer ethic than has been allowed to emerge here.

Rich has said he didn't bolt anything with a lower off and wouldn't ever knowingly retrobolt anything.

Harry has said her routes are retrobolted, but have lower-offs.

Ergo, either someone other than Rich has retro-bolted the lines or there's a miscommunication about which exact lines are involved.

A call or mail up-front might have short-circuited a lot of the pointless vitriol (NB. that's explicitly *not* a criticism of Harriet - it's hindsight).

All the stuff about how many posters have registered when just does my head in and adds little.

I am fiercely Trad in the UK. I have enjoyed clip ups in the Blanca and elsewhere (Thailand, Greece, Sardinia, the US) - not least because I paid less excess baggage. Perhaps that is the hypocrisy I didn't get before.

Harry - *please* (for my sake!) could you e-mail Rich direct and explain which lines are involved. If there's been a mistake I'm sure he'll rectify it. If you're at cross purposes then it'll clear it up. And then maybe you could both just let us know the answer.

Cheers

John

In reply to Rich M:

did you check all these sources of information before you bolted the area?

One important fact is that we were asked not to publish our routes by the local walking guide Sebastain. The area is environmentally sensitive and was were asked to keep the traffiic in the valley to a minimum and therefore not publish. Again if you had been bothered to ask local climbers they would have told you the same.

Another important point is if i am such a liar and troll how did i know that the ab points were in place....erm because i put them in!

In reply to Moacs:

John, a voice of reason, but we do not beleive this person to be real.

Just a troll, unless we receive a phonecall or visit to prove otherwise.

Rich

In reply to Rich M:

Harry - I'll even pay for the call.

J

In reply to PinkPixie:

Answered already but will repeat one more time.
Yes
YEs
YEs
YEs

WE have a printed list of sensitive areas provided to us by the Valencian Commuity Rep.

We suggest your walking guide contacts the correct people.

Why are you still not nameing the routes????

Troll?

Rich

In reply to Rich M and Harriet Mason (Pink Pixie):

Correct me if I am wrong but don't you two both live in Finestrat?

Perhaps you should call a stop to the online banter and go an meet each other. Discuss it. Go for a walk along the crag.

In my experience people tend to communicate much better in person on these issues and the fact that you live within stone-throwing distance of each other makes me think that a Forum based on a server somewhere in southern England isn't the best place for this debate to be carried out.

Alan

In reply to PinkPixie:

>well let's meet up then and i'll go through the list.

Hooray, at last you have decided to meet up and go throught the list to find out what to do. Pity you did not put them on the web or in a new routes book as well first so people could avoid bolting them if they would be better as trad.

I can understand your annoyance at finding your first new route being altered but not if you do not tell people you have done it. As the routes were bolted ground up then the (poor according to Rich) abseil bolts would not be found till the route was done.

Incidently have you placed bolts before on trad routes? If not are you sure they are safe for others to use to ab off? Most trad routes do not use them at all, using a path round the side to get down again.

In reply to Moacs:

I have always said i would be contacting Rich. If Sam and Rich hadn't been so quick to call me a liar i wouldn't have posted again.

The other important fact is that Rich did use this forum to publish the routes i have concerns about. So why is it such an issue when i want to make it clear that they were originally tard routes. Don't i have a right to publish my grievance?

In reply to PinkPixie:
It does seem very bizarre that 2 people living in the same Spanish village should be using a british internet forum to have an arguement. Surely one of you could walk the half mile or so, pick up a bottle of plonk along the way and settle things more discretely.

OK, I understand your attachment to your first new route, but a poorly documented trad route in some backwater is never going to atract much traffic and will very quickly look untouched. If (and it's a big IF), Rich has bolted and documented your line, then it will at least get a few more ascents. Why not just ask Rich to retain your name and credit you with the first ascent?

In reply to sutty:

In the costa blanca many large crags, echoes for example have ab points on them even the crad is TRAD. You can walk off these routes down the back of the crags but due to erosion etc most people use the ab points. this is common practice.

In reply to PinkPixie:

You started all this, the other side has repsonded denying the claim.

You should now put up or shut up, in other words identify the routes on the topo you claim.

Alan - the person says they are in the UK at the moment.

Sutty - they are not the same lines.

PinkP - why will you still not say which lines.

TROLL TROLL TROLL

In reply to sutty:

i actrually said i would meet up with Rich on my second post! thing is people seem to have forgotten that.

In reply to sutty:
>> Incidently have you placed bolts before on trad routes? If not are you sure they are safe for others to use to ab off? Most trad routes do not use them at all, using a path round the side to get down again.

Without taking sides in this issue, I think Harry and her climbing partners (assuming she's who I think she is) are quite used to placing ab points, bolts and lower-offs. In fact, her partners are no strangers themselves to controversy about bolting!!!

In reply to PinkPixie:

Alot of the lower offs at the Echo valley are dangerous, use of single piton lower offs, single home made bolts and tat is not really acceptable in any bodies book so stop doing it before someone gets hurt!

Rich

In reply to PinkPixie:

Give us a contact number and we will give you a call to stop all this trolling!!

Rich

In reply to PinkPixie:

Absolutely you do. Of course. But I'm not clear that the grievance is with Rich - he says he didn't bolt anything with lower-offs?

I've no quarrel with you - I'd be pissed off if someone retro-ed a new line I'd put up.

But I just think it's worth confirming these things before laying out your case.

If Rich has made an error then he needs to put it right. If it was someone else, then maybe he can help you find them.

J

In reply to Rich M: He he, bet you wish you were back in Lowe's gully, nae email s---e then eh!
Bill

In reply to PinkPixie:

Excuseme, you have not developed anything. These rocks was climbed in years 80 and 90 like boulders in raining days when you couldn't climb on the Puig. What do you think? You haven't discovered Spain. Most of the rocks here have been climbed a lot of years ago like boulders.

The same like Edwards crag.

If Rich has bolted the routes I think this is fantastic because more people will enjoy these routes.

In Spain each area has its own ethics, but in general all of them has a similar action:
- Multipitch (bolted, mixed or trad) you decide the kind of equipment.
- Short routes, always sport climbing and good bolted.

This is Spain not UK.

Rich is living here and all the family are being wellcomed here and their acts are in accordance with the spanish ethics.

If you want to develop new routes, please, open new routes on the main wall, trad or sport, but on the main wall. But if you don't have the level to climb multipitch opening new routes and decides to open short pitches, please SPORT.

The Orange House has a bolt fund, and can help you with gear to open these new routes. You will be welcomed to open more routes in Spain, but respect our ethics like we respect the UK ethics. (I've climb a lot in UK using my trad gear, and I never have thought to open using fixed bolts there).

Shouldn't have confusion between the UK and Spanish ethics, you must to think that you are a visitor here (wellcome) and you must to try to adapt to our climbing systems.

I hope your comprension about that.

Yours Sincerely.

David Mora
Mountain Guide

In reply to Rich M:

what! you are joking. My name is harriet Mason (as i have previously stated) i live in Finestrat. i have said i want to meet you and sort this out over and over. currently i am in the uk, if you want to meet me arrange a time and place by emailing me. and no i won't be coming round to the orange house you can meet me in the village. the moli 2 suits me.

Again your arrogance has really disappointed me, you have met me before.

In reply to PinkPixie:

Harriet, please remind us when and where we met? we have met 1000´s of climbers over the past 3 years and its hard to place people.

If you are how you say you are then we apologies. BUT if you have met us why did you not just drop us an email.

Actually we are real glad you started all this as the routes have become even more popular, maybe we will produde a small mini guide as Rich has many more routes to bolt at that crag.

Sam

In reply to Sam M:

again, i am sorry if i sound like a broken record if you are allowed to publish why can't i publish my grievance?

I haven't met you, i have met Rich.

If your routes have got more publicity over this then so be it, i think it's a shame you've had to mention the fact to me. You still don't seem to understand that i am not against bolts i was simply trying to make people understand that i had developed the routes before Rich bolted them. I thought i had a right to point that out. I am not a militant i just thought that other climbers would understand my position. I thought Rich would understand.

I don't claim to own the rock, i claim i climbed them before Rich bolted them. I named the, i have very fond memories of developing them. I took local advice not to publish them. I thought i was doing the right thing.

In the end you have made me out to be a liar and i find that disappointing.

In reply to PinkPixie:

If you didnt climb them first as they'd been climbed for years (i.e. in the 50s and 60s like someone else said), then doesnt that mean that they're already established routes anyway and still retrobolted?
p

In reply to PinkPixie:

Harriet

why oh why are you not naming the routes?

Rich does understand, but we need the route details.

If you do not answer this question then we still assume even with a name, that you are a troll!

Sam Orange

In reply to Hotbad Peteel: As a local, I think David Mora's post should carry the most weight on this thread. A quick google establishes his identity easily:-
http://www.iceandsnow.co.uk/staff/davidmg.htm

In reply to Papillon:

Thanks Papillon, which is why he is our first contact when new routing!!

Sam and Rich O

In reply to Papillon:

certainly, just pointing out a discrepancy. ITs been said that the area had been climbed on before Pixie claimed to put routes up. Doesnt that mean that they've been climbed cleanly and shouldnt be retrobolted. If they've been climbed then it can only be retrobolting.
p

In reply to Rich M:



Nice.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel: The local guide pointed out in his post that all the single pitch routes on the smaller crags should be safely bolted.

In reply to Tyler:

Where do I apply to join this club?... Or is it by invite only?

Who's the leader?... Please don't say Rushby.

In reply to David Mora:
Shouldn't have confusion between the UK and Spanish ethics, you must to think that you are a visitor here (wellcome) and you must to try to adapt to our climbing systems.


End of argument as far as i can see !
It seems very doubtful that Pink Pixie climbed them first and even if she did the Spanish ethics are much more relaxed than ours allowing things like this to happen.
Nuff said i think - although i can understand Pink Pixies grievance as she thought she was 1st ascentionist.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:
If they've been climbed then it can only be retrobolting.


I agree but that does not seem to matter if the ,ocal mountain guide is correct. I think we are putting our ethics onto ther situation. They do not seem to give a stuff if something is retro bolted so why should we ?

However i'd be mad as a wasp if someone did it here.

In reply to Sam M:

how many times do i have to say i will go through the routes with rich afetr all he has produced some lovely topos (and no i'm not being sarcastic).

I have told you the crag which is in question. i have asked for a meeting. your constant acusations that i am a liar are wearing thin. I could have just gone to the crag and removed the bolts but no, i sent a message on this forum asking for advice. I was hoping for an informed debate i ceratinly didn't expect to be called a liar and a troll. I expected a measured response. after all i thought i had some grounds for grievance?

In reply to biscuit:

i actually developed this crag with the help from a local guide and climber who has been climbing and living here for over 20 years. The retro bolting trad routes is not an ethic here otherwise the whole of the echoe valley and the Puig would be bolted by now.

In reply to PinkPixie:

Yes this is all wearing thin, but hey if can keep it going then so can we, I am doing the accounts today so this helps to stop the boredom!1

If you have the topos then you can see 4 sectors all with names, how hard is it to tell us which ones now...just to humour us!!

Sam

In reply to PinkPixie:

Would that be Mark and Roland Edwards..

We just left a message on their answer phone asking them to give us a call!!!

Sam Orange

In reply to PinkPixie:
I was hoping for an informed debate i ceratinly didn't expect to be called a liar and a troll. I expected a measured response. after all i thought i had some grounds for grievance?

Dear Pink

I hope you have learned a lesson. Don't expect reasoned comment on your postings. Lucky you were only called a "liar and a troll", some people don't know what the truth is, and throw accusations about like confetti.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:


You have. But you started off by accusing. You should have just stated the facts without personalising it.

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:

Dear Mick

Is that me you or Pink you are on about?

Norrie

In reply to PinkPixie:

Do you speak about Sebastian and Paco? They are local guides from Finestrat.

Or Do you speak about Mark and Rowland? They are not local, they are british, including living here more than 20 years, they don't know spanish (What kind of local is that?) They have first ascents over routes opened year ago (a lot of years ago). I don't remember if they have asked the real locals about the routes.

About the rock inside the barranco in Finestrat, I remember to have climbed in these rocks ate the end of the years 80 and early 90, and for the spanish climbers was only some rocks to spend the time not like real routes.

If Rich has bolted the routes I think it is ok, you can climb using trad gear still.

About the retrobolting (for us is rebolting) in the Echo area, is the same Edwards family that are meking this work. But we never rebolt multipitch (including the actual ENP), in some other sport areas we have rebolt some dangerous routes (if you are crazy and want to die climbing, please in your country) an ex. is Forada. Manuel Amat rebolt some sport routes opened by John Bachar because a fall could be mortal.

Yours

David Mora
MNountain Guide

In reply to Sam M:

i know you find this hilarious but i don't. I personally think it is an important issue. The three climbers who developed the crag as trad routes have issues with all of the devleopment. as i said i will happliy sit down with Rich (not you) and go through the routes in detail.

In reply to PinkPixie:

I dont find it hilarious at all.

But you are just proving more and more that you are not for real, if you had been you would have provided proof.

Why only talk to Rich about this? strange thing to say!!!

Sam

In reply to David Mora:

Sebastain asked for a stop in the development in this area. Many locals find this vally 'magic' (to quote them) it is a favourite walking route after we heard this we did not publish the routes. You have to remember the valley is part of Finestrat it is the local people and not climbers who have the right to decide whther they want climbers everywhere.

What do you class as local? i would say that if you live in an area, add to the community than you are apart of that community.

You say that Mark and Rowland Edwards don't know spanish well that is just untrue. Mark edwards speaks good Spanish his main climbing partner is Spanish and he doesn't speak any english!

Mark and Rowland are well and truely part of the community they are well known by many spanish people. and anyway what the hell has their ability to speak spanish got to-do with anything.

My original post and grievance has been completely lost.

In reply to Sam M:

er did you bolt the crag?

i have provided proof...i think the fact that Rich did find ab points says it all.

In reply to David Mora: Hi david, welcome to the lovely world of UKC, it's what British climbers do when they should be working.

Will you be at the WC in Marbella, I will be the JP so will see you then I hope.

Ciao
Graeme

In reply to David Mora:


This sums it up I suppose. Local practice is to climb these 8m grade 4s 'like boulders', but for visiting Brits they need to be 'good bolted' for our own safety!

In reply to PinkPixie:

Hmmm...

Anyone else get the feeling that all that has come from this thread is an awful lot of publicity for The Orange House, it's owner's business and the fact that there are now more easy bolted routes to be done near them (something which people are saying there is an increasing, and as yet, not fully satisfied, demand for)?

I think we have all been taken for a long ride. They're all the best of mates and cooked this little idea up between them.

In reply to PinkPixie:

BUT NOT ON THE CRAGS THAT HE BOLTED, ARE YOU STUPID!!!!

In reply to GraemeA at home: Is that Justice of the Peace Graeme?
Bill

In reply to PinkPixie:

Really? I'd have thought that the statement "I HAVE NOT BOLTED ANY LINES WITH LOWER OFF BOLTS ON THEM" also says something.

Despite Sam's continued attempts to put anyone off ever doing business with them again, I do find myself having some sympathy with her requests that you name which routes it is that you're talking about. Simply repeating "I have provided proof" when you have quite clearly done nothing of the sort doesn't do your case much good.

In reply to PinkPixie:

Hi there,

I know Javier, But Mark probably has learnt spanish the last two years because before he didn't speak. There are not a lot of spanish climbers that climb with the edwards and they haven't got a lot of contact with the spanish climbers.

I've got in contact with him but the main contacts (with other climbers) have been always about the ENP because most of the locals are desagree with the system.

Yours

David Mora
Mountain Guide

In reply to Bill Davidson: This thread is giving a bit of light relief while calls, emails etc fly around regarding you know what.

Jury President at the World Cup in September FYI. David is also a UIAA Judge, he was the Category Judge in Birmingham a couple of years back. Nice guy.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I've just rung a few climbing friends and decided that this forum has turned into nothing more than a chest beating platform for very large egos, i want to thank those who posted genuine interesting messages. So what am i going to-do? speak to Rich point out the routes i have problems with. as for removing the bolts, well i've had no apology as yet so i'm not sure..it's not only me who has the grievance my two fellow new routers as p**sed too. I decided to be the spokes person for us all, i wish i hadn't.

I think what i have realised is that there is something in the climbing community that has gone very wrong, an prevailing attitude that has a really bad smell. it makes me sad. i'm not going to post again. Happy Climbing everyone!