UKC

Dave Macleod has made the third ascent of John Dunne's Divided Years in Mournes of Northern Ireland, placing the gear as he climbed and downgrading it from E10 to E8.


http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Get in there Davey-boy

Someone really needs to get up to Scotland and try some of his E9's.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

So has Mr Pie-Man been telling porkies about his grades on his new routes?

Wasn't Breathless downgraded to E8 too?

In reply to 220bpm:

And his E11...

In reply to 2pints: Maybe Dave found an easier way to climb both? Or English E10 is generally equal to Scotish E8. Although DM has repeated grit E8's without downgrading them.

In reply to 2pints:

Dear 2pints

No, did you not read where Dave says "I forgot how much easier it is repeating stuff than putting it up!". Someone may come along and downgrade Dave's routes in time.

You should try new routes. It is difficult to get the grade right first time.

Norrie

In reply to 2pints: that would be Mr Pie Man who can lead about 18 grades harder than you or I then ?

In reply to lummox:

who, having bumped into him at a crag in Cham, also seems to be a very nice guy without many pretensions.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: MacLeod's favourite book on his profile in that blog is quite interesting: "How to be a domestic godess". Maybe we've uncovered his secret!

In reply to 2pints:

Give the big man a break. How many repeats have his routes had and over how many years? He made a fantastic contribution and deserves a bit of respect.

In reply to JonC: yup, always been friendly whenever I`ve met him.

In reply to 2pints:

And you've done the first ascent of what? and given it which grade?

2pints of shandy!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Those links suck dude.

In reply to A Nidderdale boulderer.:

No he sinks after 1 pint.

2 is the goal he have set himself.

In reply to 2pints: does it matter? to quote daves blog "Well take it from me this is one of the best single pitch routes I’ve ever seen or done"

John Dunne obviously has an eye for a line which is all that matters.

I think that 2pints as gotten the general idea by now. Time to move on, perhaps?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

You didn't mention, he top-roped it first go and lead it clean first try!

There must be people out there who are contenders to onsight this route?

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

Yeh, 2pints of shandy and a packet of crisps!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Just wanted to say that surely it can't be E8, Birkett gave the climbing hard f8b and he's no muppet. Does anyone get the impression that maybe McLeod has a chip on his shoulder?

In reply to evolvdog:

Dear evo

Have you climbed Divided Years to know it's grade?

Who has said that Birkett is a muppet?

Have you thought that Dave MacLeod can actually climb at a high level?

Norrie

In reply to evolvdog:

From his blog he comes across as well-balanced and articulate, have you read it or just skimmed the headline news?

In reply to evolvdog:

no

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

There are very few ultra hard trad routes in the UK and Ireland, especially if you exclude Grit which is different climbing to gear protected mountain and sea cliff routes.
There is also very little basis for comparison with other countries.

Because of this getting a grade concensus is bound to be difficult, especially when Divided Years was first climbed so many years ago. Much more difficult than comparing top end sports grades - although that has its fair share of controversy

Even trad routes for us more modest punters are subject to grade debates and can go up or down by one or two grades; especially after several assents when a consensus emerges.
(Norrie; my routes have also been upgraded)

SO waht I am trying to say that there is nothing controversial in these grade reassessments, and certainly the word "downgraded" does nothing to denegrate JD. In fact DM confirms the absolute quality of the climb. I am confident that JD made the trip to Ireland to grab a magnificent line, not as some of the peakcentric crowd may allege; to claim a high E number where it would be less likely to come under scruiteny of the Sheffield grade police.

Oi! DY is the only E10 we've got over here! Leave it alone!

In reply to kevin stephens:


In fact wasn't he living in Northern Ireland when he did Divided Years - mentioned in his Big Issue video I think?

In reply to tobyfk:

Really it is not usually the FA who will give a route its grade - well that is what I have found with many routes I have put up (50+), but those who come after as usually the FA has knowledge familiarity etc that makes it easier up to a point.

I usually find if I do a new route that I will know approximately but that really is all. I may have not climbed much for a while so my fitness may make it seem harder etc etc. Or I might have been working it for a while so have the beta before the redpoint. I expect the grade to change.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Good effort to McLeod, a fantastic repeat. All things said, this was first climbed over ten years ago! It's good that such a stunning route has been brought back to peoples attention.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Taken from Planet Fear:

Having got Rhapsody out of his system Dave’s goal is now to travel around the country, and perhaps to Europe if funds permit, to repeat the hardest routes he can. He's got designs on everything from Birkett’s many test pieces in the Lakes, Indian Face on Cloggy, Mark Edwards's Rewind in Cornwall, and the Peak trio of Equilibrium, Blind Vision and Dr Doolittle (to name but a few!). The one practice he will always try to apply to a route is that of placing his gear on lead, something he did on Divided Years, as well as Rhapsody.

Do you think he will go for the first ascent of Wizard Ridge as well?

bluebrad

In reply to bluebrad: Bloomin' eck, that would be quite a road trip wouldn't it!

In reply to TobyA:

Road trip and a half mate - be a hell of a coup (and a hell of a lot of kudos as well) if he pulled even half of it off.

bluebrad

In reply to bluebrad: goes to show what respect people have for him when he comes up with a wish list like that and no-one mocks him.

I reckon he can do them all.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

There is more info on the grades issue at Dave's blog - http://www.davemacleod.blogspot.com/ - sheds a bit more light on why he has the desire to do the other E10 routes as well.

From what I have read the downgrading of DY was always going to be a possibility - Dave Birkett refused to get drawn on this after the second ascent because he didn't want to take anything away from what is by all accounts a fantastic line.

bluebrad

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Letstell it as it is

Birkett thought it was hard 8B (this is can not be E8)

Also Dave Mcloud did not repeat Breathless he missed the really hard starting crack Dodgy.

I know this because Dave Birkett got into an argument about it at the Kendall show

I think Dave needs to find a more credible way of saying he's the best.

Dave get out and prove it on a World scale

Bellavista
The Nose

In reply to evolvdog:

Dear evo

Dave has a handicap in rock climbing, he Scottish winter climbs now and a gain.

How many Grade XI's have you climbed and how many were new routes?

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

But has he climbed winter XI on grit?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: E10 to E8, well it is still pretty hard in my book! So JD got it a couple of grades out, I have come across routes that are at least two grades out from when the First Ascentionist did them.

DM is obviously a very talented climber, and I would like to think JD will be chuffed that someone has got off there arse to repeat the route after all these years regardless of grade. I have looked across at the buttress, and it was quite spectacular I imagine both climbers enjoyed the experience of clibming it, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered.

In reply to bluebrad:

The interesting one would be if he could on-sight Indian Face placing gear en route.

As for Wizard Ridge...who really cares, apart from grit obsessives. Now where do you live?

In reply to evolvdog:

Dave Mc seems to be really getting out there and repeating routes in great style. His downgrading may be a bit controversial but he's definitely entitled to his opinion - it would be interesting to know what Dave B really thinks about the grade.

My question about trad grads including his E11 is whether grades are being pushed up a bit too high - E grades have always covered a larger area of difficulty (typically 2 french grades). My understanding has it that for totally protected rough there is a rough equivalence of 8a/8a+ E7, 8b,8b+ E8, 8c/8c+ E9, this then gives 9a/9a+ E10, 9b/9b+ E11. I'm well aware that you don't usually find climbing as hard as this on a particular route given the difficulty of placing gear and the danger factor but if trad grades mean anything there should be some sort of equivalence in that the overall difficulty of achieving an E7 should be similar to that of achieving an 8a an so on.

Based on this climbing E11 should be like climbing 9b - there are no confirmed 9b's in the world and no 9a+'s in this country, Dave Mc is obviously a great climber but is he that much better than anyone else - maybe it should be just 'solid' E10.
Similarly Equilibrium is given E10 (equivalent to 9a) and has already had 2 repeats, one of them pretty quick I believe. I don't believe any of the 9a's in the country have been repeated.

None of this is getting at Dave Mc - I just think we maybe need to consider what trad grades mean, and whether we are saying that as the grades get higher (past E7) the width of the grade is getting smaller.

In reply to evolvdog:



I think it's pretty clear to everyone wholm out of Dave and yourself has a chip on their shoulder. The difference being that Dave has openly made his downgrade and is currently defending his decision to do so on scottishclimbs.com. You don't even have the balls to question the downgrade under your own name.

Andy Anderson

In reply to JonC:

If he did it would be the first E9 onsight to the best of my knowledge - would be very hard to OS though as the crux moves are blind from what I have heard.


Well if you are going to do the big 3 on grit you might as well try and raise the bar a bit - hell imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the Sheffield Mafia if he did repeat all of the big 3 and then topped that by doing WR. 8-)

bluebrad

In reply to bluebrad:


which was my point, so, yes.


would be good, I agree, mostly joking

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Grade 'widths' do get narrower in reality as the increases in effort /committment become proportionaly harder to achieve.

In reply to bluebrad:
good effort dave.

Hope he goes for IF onsite. as he is well capable of onsiteing it.

what is wizard ridge?

In reply to The Great Pretender:

hmmm, somebody who is famous for working really hard projects rather than onsights is clearly 'well capable' of onsighting a 200 move E9 with a blind crux? Working hard projects does not equate to being good at onsighting at the highest level.
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel: is there reallly 200 moves in IF? if Dave Mac is not capable of onsiteing it is anyone?

In reply to The Great Pretender:

i'm not saying that macleods a great climber, just that his recent achievements are projects, not onsights. Thats a whole different game.
p

In reply to Ian Patterson:

I think it's more complex than this; high E grades don't necessarily align neatly with two F grades. I wouldn't dare dispute it, but I was a little confused by the E11 for Rhapsody. I understand what goes into an E grade and that it's not all just about danger, etc, but repeatedly falling from a crux and getting a few bruises...?

Like I said, I'm in no position to dispute, having done nothing harder than E6/7, but I suppose like many I may be a little confused by the archane world of super high E-grades.

Dave's highest redpoint on sport is 8c, yes? And he rated the climbing on Requiem 8c? Sport 8c is bloody hard, but it's a long way indeed from 9a and above.

From what you've said, an 8c line could get E8. So how does Requiem end up E11?

I dunno.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm asking, not telling.

In reply to Dom Orsler: i'd like to know too. in my opinon the E grade system in higher grades is too cock. trad 7a is a bit of a misnomer. you can have E5 7a and E11 7a it makes no sence. i'm asking too.

In reply to The Great Pretender:

The english tech grades are absolutely bizarre in the high grades. I've climbed 6c at pex after 3 tries. i'd say i'm pretty consistent at the lower end of 6c. I really cant comprehend how to climb 7a, its such a massive leap it starts to be meaningless. The idea of E11 is bizarre too. We've always added a new grade when its siginificantly harder than whats been climbed before. Macleods repeatnig all these routes. Hes put up some E9s in scotland. Hes also repeating all the E10s, but hes downgradnig them to E8. that means that his E9s must be harder than whats been seen to be E10 ni the past. Its objective so cant comment on whos correct, and its not really something i'm concerned with, but what does seem apparent is the distinct lack of anything thats graded at E10, which means that requiem should be E11. If its a big leap who cares. Its a huge leap frm HVS to E1 and alot of people will say its a big leap frmo E4 to E5.
p

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Oh, and wasn't Violent New Breed 9a+?

And this thing about confirming super-high sport grades is well tricky. Look at Akira. Loads of the world's best have been to check it out, and no-one has got close. Sharms has done confirmed 9a+ and is now working Chilam Balam with Bernabe's help/beta. He says it's waaaaay harder than Realization and hasn't yet got anywhere near it. Looks like 9b+ could well be solid. If no-one can repeat a line, does that make it unconfirmed, or does Ben's suggestion that he doesn't have to climb a line to grade it apply here?

In reply to evolvdog:

>I think Dave needs to find a more credible way of saying he's the best.

Since when has MacLeod said anything of the kind?!

Jealousy and petty bitching can't take away from the man's achievements.
Actions speak louder than words as they say.
If Dave was in any way noted for bullshit or bigging himself up, this thread would be full of 'haters' like yourself. As it stands you seem to be in a minority, and it's a credit to Dave Mac that he has the respect of 99% of the climbing community.

Davie

In reply to Dom Orsler:

No- Devestation Generation is 8c+ unless I'm mistaken.

In reply to andi_e:

.....and is Three Pebble Slab HVS or E1?

Bloody grades.

In reply to The Great Pretender:
Even I can work that one out. Fall off an E5 7a and the gear is so good you go upwards.
Fall off an E11 7a and you are in hospital.

The Ent

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Apparantly its HVS according to the new guide....

In reply to Oli:

So if the grade of a climb is in a guide, or a magazine, or a website, that's what the grade is?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Of course. If its in the guidebook it must be true....




























..... in the eyes of the writers

In reply to Oli:

Not necessarily. In fact in some cases, no.

In reply to All:

This is a rather well mannered grade discussion for UKC. Is this a taster for things to come? Respect and forgiveness for top ropers, Boulderers and alpinists holding hands and singing songs round the campfire. an end to retro bolting?
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

Dear Hotbad

Respect, no, but forgiveness if they recant the errors of their way.

Norrie

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Yes, alright.

But at the end of the day, its often not the grade that matters or makes the routes.

In reply to Enty: errr mr macleod fell off rapsody several times and he is still with us. so it can't be 'thatm uch difference. also, trauma which id E9 7a has f7b clibming and rapsody E11 7a hac f8c+ climbing. there is a significant difference in the level of difficulty there. surley rapsody should be 7b or c?

In reply to The Great Pretender:

Dear Pretender

Ask your father to take you up to Dumbarton and have a look at Rhapsody.

Norrie

In reply to The Great Pretender:

I climbed an english 6c a few weeks back. It felt about v4 or v5. Obviously that doesnt transfer to E grades. i've also climbed a v8+ that didnt have a single move that felt harder than 6b but was incredibly sustained. english grades are pretty meaningless when you talk about harder routes, its all about whether you can keep doing move after move after move.
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel: if oyu look at the reecastle guide. there are some trad 6c routes with moves of f8a. whereas something like trauma is e9 7a with only f7b climbing. the tope end system needs an overhaul. like you've said E11 doesn't make sense.

In reply to Norrie Muir: norrie. i'm not saying rhapsody wasn't an increadible acheivement. i'm merely sating that the english grading system, which works well up to about trad 6a/b is all to cock in the upper grades.

In reply to The Great Pretender:

think you've got that very wrong. f8a is a french sport grade. Its the grade for the entire route butnot taking into account the gear or risk of death. 6c is an english tech grade. its the grade of a single move. The english grade is the grade of the hardest single move. Like i said i've done a v4 6c and a v8+ 6b. thats a massive jump in v grade with the tech grade going down. theres an e4 6c at rivelin, end of the affair is e8 6c. end of the affair is also f7b I believe as a route.
p

In reply to The Great Pretender:

It seems to work well enough for the people that climb those kind of grades...

In reply to Hotbad Peteel: There's an HVS 6c all the way up to E9/10 6c.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel: i know that f8a is sport, but the guide states the sport grade on the hardest routes (as 6c and 7a are fairly bland grades) so the climber can get an idea of how hard the route is. the route in question was E8 6c (f8a).

In reply to Oli:

i wouldnt say that. i read something a while ago by someone like gaskins.Said he'd dnoe moves that he thought should be 7b and that he'd also climbed harder moves that he thought might be 7c. i dont think many 7b routes have been climbed. elder statesman gets XS 7b i believe.
p

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: It appears that all the Scots replying to this topic are heralding McLeod as some kind of national hero and anybody that queries his grading is a 'hater' and has a chip on their shoulder. Take a step back guys and look at the open discussion. Is it not you that are the 'haters' and have a chip on your shoulder?

In reply to Hardman:

Yes but Macleod actually repeated the route therefore is allowed to comment on the grade, which he did, giving his fair opinion of what he thought of the grade, remember this denys him another E10 tick, an upgrade is completely diferent. If people want to argue with him all they can do is repeat the route, only then do they have any real basis on which to comment. The only other area in which people can comment is saying that in the uk system protected 8a is about E8, this is exactly what MacLeod said about the route, the guy is extremely understating of his achievements and attacking him over a downgrade seems stupid.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Hi Mick, I think its about time we brought back excessive top roping, preplaced gear leading in the low grades, group abseiling on popular slab routes, resin, bolting hard grit routes, chipping, regrade everything to yorkshire VS, hobnail boots, plus 4's and pipes!
Climbings not what it used to be!

In reply to Hardman:

Dear Hardman

Evolvdog first posted "Does anyone get the impression that maybe McLeod has a chip on his shoulder?". Now evolvdog could be some real hard climber like you and contribute to this thread in a reason way. It seems most doubters have jumped in feet first without reading Dave's reasons for his grading of the routes. I have pointed out on this and the other thread that Dave has given a reasoned and first explanation for the gradings, this is not "hating" the detractors.

I think the people who have chips on their shoulders are the ones who have never graded new routes or routes with few ascents thinking they know better than someone who has done the routes themselves.

I don't find it odd that doubters don't post using their real names.

You know very little about Scottish climbing if you think Dave is held up as a national hero by fellow Scots. Just look at the threads on UKC about bolts on Scottish winter routes.

One thing going for Dave is he has balls not only to do the routes but state the grades and use his own name, not hide behind a pseudonym.

Norrie

PS Dave MacLeod is not a hardman, just a guy that can climb.

PPS Have you done the routes in question and what did you think their grades were?

In reply to Norrie Muir: It seems most doubters have jumped in feet first without reading Dave's reasons for his grading of the routes.

What are people doubting Norrie?

I have pointed out on this and the other thread that Dave has given a reasoned and first explanation for the gradings, this is not "hating" the detractors.

Don't understand that point Norrie?

PS Dave MacLeod is not a hardman, just a guy that can climb.

Thanks for that Norrie.

PPS Have you done the routes in question and what did you think their grades were?

I haven't done any of the routes and I don't profess to comment on the grades, if you read my post does it say that Norrie?

Have you done these routes Norrie?

In reply to Mick Ryan and others: I'm not really sure what the problem here is:

f7b climbing with bugger all gear (End of the Affair) is around E8.
f8a climbing on good gear (Divided Years) gets E8

Blind cruxy off balance f7b+? (Indian Face) gets E9
Relatively safe f8a+ (Parthian Shot) gets E9

f8a+/f8b with a dangerous fall (Doctor Doolittle) gets E10.
f8b+ with a moderately dangerous fall (Equilibrium) gets E10
Safe as houses f8c+, E10?

f8c+ with a pretty dangerous fall (Rhapsody) gets E11

The link between sprt and trad grades makes sense and as far as I can tell for VERY SAFE routes would be:
E6 f7b/f7b+
E7 f7c/f7c+
E8 f8a/f8a+
E9 f8b/f8b+
E10? f8c/f8c+
E11? f9a/f9a+

Anyway, there are a lot of people out that who are capable of climbing f8a, so hopefully Divided years whilst not becoming a trade route will get a bit more attention and a consensus will emerge.

In reply to Hardman: looks like Norrie has just proved your point Hardman

In reply to Mark Stevenson: Is Divided f8a (DM, TE) or f8b/8b+ (JD, DB)?

By the way all you aggressive posters that is a question.

In reply to Hardman:

Dear Hardman

I see you have not read or understood Dave's explanations for his grading either.

I've not done the routes either, but have had most of my routes regrarded by people who have climbed the routes and some routes by people who have not done the routes. Comments of first hand experience of doing the routes are more valid.

Yes, you never commented on the grades, but whinged on about "chips on shoulders". Your post does not contribute anything, relevant or otherwise in a "open discussion". So what was your point of your post? Shite stirring or what?

Norrie

In reply to evolvdog:

Dear evo

You and Hardman have proved my point, you are a shite stirrer and have not the balls to either do the climbs or use your real name.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir: I dont care who you are so why do you care who I am?

You need to chill out a bit you big angry man.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

At last! Some sense!

Just because DM took a number of falls does not mean that the route is safe. Read his description of the climb- he suffered sopme quite serious injuries as a result of the falls he took, one he almost brained himself on a ledge! Just because you don't hit the ground doesn't mean you are safe. Very few people have taken nasty groundfalls on the hardest routes, it does not mean that they are any safer.

In reply to all the bitches:

Dear God, here we go again. Why do we have to argue so much over things like this.

It was a good effort from Dave to climb this route so quickly. Why do Norrie et al have to keep saying the same old shit about my balls are bigger than yours. Cocktalk at its worst.

In reply to Norrie Muir: can any one explain to me why dave uses sport grades to justify his grade. ie 8c gets e11 and because divided years is only 8a it is down graded to e8. surely the point of the e grade is subjective, the exposure, the protection and how sustained the climb is. the british tech grade deals with the difficulty of the moves. if i am wrong please explain rather than just calling stupid. cheers the pimp

In reply to ThePimpOfCrimp:

Dear Pimp

Yes. Ask Dave on http://www.davemacleod.com/contact.htm

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir: dear norrie


Yes. Ask Dave


it does not appear that YOU can answer


the pimp

In reply to ThePimpOfCrimp:

Dear Pimp

You posted "can any one explain to me why dave uses sport grades to justify".

I do know that my reply to you was too difficult for you to understand. I could explain it, but there is no point in me explaining to you in detail as you would not understand complex answers.

Why do you want second hand explanations?

Norrie

In reply to reply to all the negatives:

I can't believe that so many people comment DM's gradings (and other top climbers) - it's unbelievable considering how few people are even close to operating at that level.

Mark Stevenson - thanks for putting down the E-grade vs French sport (with the consideration of falls/gear) it makes total sense in my opinion. I would have put in the post, but am too lazy! I think it may be just a case of people who haven't spent years climbing various E-grades that just don't "get it." I can't say that I did, when I first started climbing. Just get out climbing and stop moaning and bitch*ng everyone!

ALSO... This thread just sums up a lot of what I can't stand about British climbing. Have some respect for people pushing the standards! The scene in this country is getting behind because all everyone does is critise, back-bite and make idle speculations. Many of my friends spend all their time putting down their achivements ("yeah, it was a fluke" or "I'm so weak, I can't do staminband in the full sun") which I'm sure is because no-one feels secure in telling people that they have actually done some decent stuff. When I see these people doing impressive things, I tell them that I think it's great and encourage them to do more so I, myself can be inspired in my climbing. I think everyone else should too!

Support your fellow British climbers!

In reply to Norrie Muir: do you think that you'll gain respect from being an arse to people?

In reply to Hardman:

Dear Hardman

If I was looking for respect for myself, I would try to kid on I was a hardman, next question?

Dave has put up some hard routes and repeated some hard routes, what is your problem with that?

Have you a chip on your shoulder with someone doing that? I think climbers making progress is welcome, do you?

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I hardly dare post for fear of being shot down in flames, but here goes....

I note nobody has mentioned that the E grade is supposed to be for the on sight. There's no routes of E10 or above that I know of that have had an on sight. The grades of climbs like these are, in a way, purely theoretical as they have been practiced before the lead. I suppose in some ways a French sport grade is more accurate- it defines how hard it is to climb from the bottom to the top regardless of gear etc. I know people can make educated guesses as to a route being E10 or E12 from past experience, but it may not be the true on sight grade.
At the end of the day a grade or two either way doesn't matter a great deal when people are pushing the standard forward. We should applaud Dave (and everyone else with vision) for what they are doing.
Please don't shout at me , Norrie.

In reply to bentley's biceps:

A great repeat (and I'm sure experience) by Mr. Macleod and he has given his honest opinion (with reasons) of the grade.

Mick

In reply to bentley's biceps:


Why would anyone shout at you?

You have been reasoned and articulate.

You have not suggested anyone has a chip on their shoulder out of what can only be described as bitter jealousy.

Andy

In reply to Nial:I agree keep it E10 for of a great route and for the great effort of the time it was climbed.

Stu

In reply to bentley's biceps:
We should applaud Dave (and everyone else with vision) for what they are doing.

Dear biceps

I have no need to get at you. What I don't like is unreasoned sniping at a climber, no matter who he/she is.

Yes, grades will settle down over time by being repeated.

People like Dave is up for getting shot down, however, not for where he comes from.

So you can relax and have a good Saturday night.

Norrie

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: HAS he provided reasons for the downgrading of the E grade? As Bentley's Biceps rightly observes, the E10 grade was presumably given by JD for a notional on-sight ascent? Dave Macleod's ascent was achieved in the best style to date ('waddage' as they say in some weird tribe Sheffield way) but no one has achieved that yet, so - excuse me being a numpty - what right has anyone to downgrade it?

In reply to Marc C:

By that logic, what right did John Dunne have to give it E10 in the first place?

In reply to Factual: well presumably because it was harder than anything he'd done, and he's done quite a few hard E numbers?

In reply to Marc C:

Presumably?

That's for John to answer.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Dear Mick

How about an article about where E grades should stop for Trad route?

Why should Trad grades be given to routes that have never been on-sighted?

Norrie

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: It seems to me that downgrading a route without on-sighting is a bit like taking a can of beans from the bottom of a stacked pyramid of cans. JD's graded it by comparing it with his hardest grades, Birkett did the same - DM comes along and questions their grade, so he's not only questioning the grade of Divided Years, he is by extension questioning the grades of all other routes graded by the said climbers.

Is Divided Years easier than Parthian Shot? The same grade as End of the Affair? Dave has muddied the waters even further by saying 'E8' IS a hard grade for mountain crag routes. So is the E system to be non-universal - i.e. an E8 on grit is easier than an E8 on mountain crags (factoring in length, seriousness - factors which I presumed the E grade was supposed to take into account?)?

In reply to Marc C:

Dear marc

You are also questioning Dave's grading without doing the routes, at least Dave gave his grading from first hand experience.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir: No, Norrie, you know what I'm doing: I'm querying the logic behind grading trad routes. I don't have to even be a climber to do that!

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Thankyou Mr Muir Sir. Shame I'm working all weekend.

In reply to Marc C: 'It seems to me that downgrading a route without on-sighting is a bit like taking a can of beans from the bottom of a stacked pyramid of cans'

But Macleod did for the first time lead the route placing protection as he went. This was the best ascent so far. Birkett was not willing to comment on the grade.

In reply to Marc C:

No one onsights these routes, it's all speculation is an onsight grade...for that read bullshit. Forget it.

Consider that at least the first ten or so 5.14's in the USA were subsequently downrated to 5.13.

The claiming of a grade of cutting edge routes are a mixture of bullshit, self-promotion and honest ignorance.

With time a more realistic assessment of the grade evolves.

For Breathless and Divided Years, that time is now.

It's all about peer review and track record Marc.....without that it's all just BS....however good the line or the climbing is.

M

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I think the people who have chips on their shoulders are the ones who have never graded new routes or routes with few ascents thinking they know better than someone who has done the routes themselves.


Hi Norrie,
Isn't this the case for exceptional performers in everything, not just climbing?
Lance Armstrong (Cycling) Seb Coe (Track) Ali (Boxing) Richard Branson (Business) have all been got at in one way or another, because the gap between those who are exceptional and even those who are outstanding is vast; and therefore some will find cause to pick at or minimise their performances.
Having read Dave Mc's blog, he writes as if those reading it are on the same wavelength as he is, and will naturally understand where he is coming from, clearly not the case eh?

In reply to Marc C:


Well, on Scottish Climbs, Dave has said that he's been on Parthian Shot and considers it to be harder than both Divided Years and Breathless (http://forums.scottishclimbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=3172).

I find this whole debate pretty farcical. People who have not climbed the routes should not be trying to pretend they have a better idea of what grade they are than those who have.

And yes, I note that Dave has not actually climbed Parthian Shot, but at least he has been on it and therefore has a valid point of reference to compare it to Divided Years and Breathless.

Which is more than most folk on here can say.

In reply to Stuart S:


Not the whole debate Stuart, just some contributions to it and those farcical bits are probably from peeps who are just learning about grade dynamics----so be a little more understanding perhaps (also bare in mind that most don't post but just read).

DM's latest words from his blog.

"My grade opinion is just as questionable as anyone else's on its own, but like real science, weight of certainty is added with more similar opinions. So I encourage the other climbers who have been on or have an interest in repeating Divided Years to get to the Mournes and make it happen. If DY and Breathless end up as E10s then Rhapsody might be the first E13. If I repeat all the E10s in the UK and they are all E8, I'll bring Rhapsody down to E9 or 10. Grades are not fixed they exist only in climbers heads, they can change."

In reply to 2pints: screw you..you go and climb it.

JD is a top bloke and his routes are nails...unlike you

In reply to Stuart S: Let's get a few things straight. Dave Macleod is a brilliant climber, and, from what I've seen of him (lectures), he's a thoroughly nice bloke. I'm not questioning his credentials to make comments about top-end climbing grades. However, it would be a rather sorry state of affairs if climbers on a climbing forum were automatically disqualified from debating the logical and philosophical points that perennially beset grading issues (issues we are confronted with every time we consult a guidebook, whether we're a hardman or punter).

I haven't the foggiest idea what grade Divided Years is, never claimed to have! The point I was making is that JD (the chap who put up Parthian Shot & which Dave Mac thinks is harder than DY!) thought Divided Years was harder than PS. JD was 'presumably' (that word again) grading his routes the way most climbers do - i.e. by comparing them to other routes - e.g. "that route was harder then the E2 I did last week, but not as hard as the E4, so it's probably E3". Now Dave has climbed DY in better style than anybody so far, but he didn't lead it on-sight and he hasn't climbed Parthian Shot. Perhaps only a climber who's climbed *every* hard route is able to say with any authority that 'x was harder than y which was harder than z'. But, Dave comes as near to fitting the bill as any other climber in the UK at present, and he's entitled to say he thinks it's E8. However, more top climbers' opinions will be needed to determine the grade one way or another. I haven't however read any clear and convincing argument for why Dave thinks it's 'only' E8.

Dave makes many interesting points about grading, but 2 issues I find a bit perverse are:

a) Dave's justification that, although he's downgraded DY, E8 is still hard for a mountain route: Well, of course it IS a hard grade (!), but I wonder why mountain routes should somehow be graded 'more leniently' because they are mountain routes rather than shorter grit testpieces? (this veers close to the old Scottish 'under-grading all hard routes as VS' tradition -"Well we *know* mountain routes are traditionally more serious and more remote and more strenuous to place gear on, but people expect that"). This would seem to compromise the purported universalism of the E-grading system.

b) Dave's statement that grades can change, they exist only in the heads of climbers: Well, the first part is patently true - grades take a while to settle down to some consensus. The second part (that they exist only in the heads of climbers) strikes me as an absurd form of philosophical idealism. A grade is an attempt to express the overall objective and, true, *subjective* difficulty of a climb. Establishing a precise grade is of course not an exact science (there are too many variables that influence the calculation). However, not many people these days think Three Pebble Slab is anything from VDiff to E7 - it's all in individual climbers' minds! It is regarded as objectively approximating HVS-E1.

NB All of what I'm saying has nothing to do with how hard I personally climb or with my making any authoritative claims about the grade of any route. I am merely, and quite permissibly, debating the concept of grading (whatever the climb).

PS People might think what I'm saying is rubbish, and it may well be, but please allow me the right to express my opinions. I'm quite happy to be corrected, educated and humoured

In reply to Marc C: Its also very subjective as well. JD may have found parthian shot easier then Divided Years and so gave Divided Years E10. Whereas Dave Macleod may have found Divided Years suited his style better than Parthian Shot and so found it easier? Who knows...

In reply to Oli: True. But one doesn't have to be a top climber to make that logical point!

In reply to Marc C:


Dear Marc

The reason for "the old Scottish 'under-grading all hard routes as VS' tradition" was that it was a closed system. VS was the highest grade, so routes that were obvious extreme were graded as VS. There was no real problem with this when there was a graded list in the guide books. In fact I preferred the old Scottish system for both rock and winter climbs as it was easier to grade my routes, VS for a rock climb and in winter if it was less than 450' it was a Grade IV otherwise it was a Grade V.

If you have a point, try and keep it simple as most posters on here are students, so they don't have a lengthy attention span.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Ha ha! (oops, if you're reading this, Timpkiss, I wasn't laughing at you - your essay on the symbolism of the fruit bat in the development of Indonesian nationalism was excellent!)

Actually, I'm finding it difficult to say specifically what I mean. Just a sense that top-end grading is in a bit of a muddle.

In reply to Marc C:

Just a sense that top-end grading is in a bit of a muddle.

Dear Marc

That is a bit better. If you put more thought into it, you may get somewhere.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir: Thank you, sir!

In reply to 2pints:

Even if it was downgraded to E8 its still a dam site better than 90% of climbers will ever achieve.

So rather than doinig the usual british thing of picking out the bad in everything lets be positive.

All climbers have a different style and some climbs will seem easier than others.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: The claiming of a grade of cutting edge routes are a mixture of bullshit, self-promotion and honest ignorance.

What would first ascensionists like JD have to say about that?
Seems like a very bold claim to make

In reply to Hardman:

Dear Hardman

You could ask JD at John@johndunneclimbing.com

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I would be surprised if JD gave a flying f*ck anymore

Criticism of such stratospheric achievement seems almost pointless, when you consider how few people are really able to contribute first hand to the debate.

Stunning performances all round.


I'm contemplating gecko gene therapy treatment.

In reply to Marc C:

I think if you read what Dave's said on here, on Scottishclimbs and on his blog, he's given a more reasoned justification as to why DY is, in his opinion, E8, than anyone else has as to why it's E10.

My comments about the farcicality (is that a word?) of the debate were more aimed at the likes of Stu Tyrell and his post saying that DY should stay at E10 because it is a great route and a great effort for the time. How can you argue with logic like that?!? Anyway, sorry if you felt I was taking a pop at you exclusively!


I don't think that's what Dave's saying. To me, it sounds more like an observation that the committment required to climb an E8 in the mountains is more than that required to do an outcrop E8 due e.g. to the long approaches, weather issues etc, and so it's harder to succeed on a mountain E8 than an outcrop E8. Therefore, mountain E8s are hard.


Again, sorry if you thought I was picking on you personally. I guess I was just using your post as a launching point to make some comments on the thread in general.

In reply to Stuart S: No worries, Stu. Virtual communication seems to encourage polarization, over-simplification and obfuscation of arguments and opinions -e.g. 'JD is a cheating over-grader', 'JD is God so stop picking on him', 'DM must know what he's talking about because he wears a nice woolly beanie', 'What right has DM got to downgrade an E10 to VS?'

In reply to Marc C:
obfuscation

Word of the day already!

In reply to Marc C:

I think Dave MacLeod is an absolute sweetie and I should know cos I once had a conversation on the telephone with him.

In reply to Rosie A: Luvvie.

In reply to Stuart S: I was busy on the phone (work) had to leave the thread, I wont start a reply in future if I cant finish my point.
What I was going to add to that was, we need more than one persons view, a consensus,it would have been better if D.B had graded it as well.

A great effort from Dave, I look forward to seeing the video.

Stu

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: JUst some food for thought it took Dave three days to do Divided and he only gave it E8
Ryan Pascall on site soloed an E8 on Curbar does this mean

Ryan is light years ahead of Dave or is Dave just on a Dunne bash

In reply to Hardman:

Ryan did not onsight solo and E8 at Curbar. He did beta-flash an E8 at Curbar, which is a very different proposition.

BTW the E8 at Curbar has F7b/+ climbing, the route the main thread is about has F 8a/b/c climbing (depending on who your talking to), which is much harder in real terms.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

which route?

In reply to Tyler:

end of the affair
p

In reply to The Great Pretender: E5 7a is likely to have only one move at that grade and with good gear around the crux. E11 7a will consist of every move being at that technical grade and with practically no gear on the entire route!!

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

Blimey! Why solo that when there's gear on it? Good effort.

In reply to Tyler: He didn't solo it either... led it ground up with some information hence a beta-flash.

Andy F

In reply to Hardman:

Dear Hardman

You seem to like sour grapes.

Norrie

In reply to Hardman:

Hardman, if you are to make inflammatory posts, at least get your facts straight before posting:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=170281

In reply to andy farnell:

True, but it still raises a question about relative grades - if you have climbed E11 should it take 3 days to climb a route 3 grades below.

Using the example of sport climbing - with 2 sport grades per trad grade there's at least 4 clear grades even if the 2 routes are at the bottom and top of there respective grades.

Climbed 9b, how long should it take to climb 8b+

Or climbed 8a how long to climb 7a+. Should really expect onsight or very quick redpoint I would think.

In reply to Ian Patterson: I think that logic only applies to sports routes. Rhapsody is (according to Dave Mc) 8c. Divided years is 8c(Dunne), 8b (Birkett) or 8a (Dave Mc), so the average there is 8b. 3 days to climb and 8b on natural gear seems pretty good to me. I've also heard (dunno if this is true or not though, just some gossip) that Dave Mc missed the initial crack which adds a lot to the overall difficulty.

Andy F

In reply to Ian Patterson:

From Dave's blog, sussed the moves on the first evening, top-roped it clean 1st try on second day then midged off, lead it clean placing all the gear first try on the third day. It's not like he spent 3 whole days hanging on the rope working the moves, is it?

Dave's take on this little debate is also up on his blog now...

http://www.davemacleod.blogspot.com/

In reply to andy farnell:

Hi Andy, agree that 3 days to climb 8b on natural gear is pretty good. My question is around the fact that DY is 3 grades easier that Rapsody but still took 3 days. If grades are a consistent size would you expect something like:

Highest grade - months of climbing
HG - 1 - weeks of climbing
HG - 2 - days of climbing
HG - 3 - hours of climbing

As a said earlier no criticism intended just have a slight trainspotterish interest into what grades are supposed to mean.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I must admit I've come to agree with Norrie's suggestion some months ago that we should have a limited number of E grades; perhaps 4 or 5 that are detrmined only by how sustained the route is wrt the hardest move and how much objective danger there is. In reality this is what happens anyway as for any technical grade there is a range of about 4 E grades that are associated with it and I for one just make that calculation to figure out how big an undertaking a particular route is.

In reply to Ian Patterson:


Ok. Now extrapolate, based on Rhapsody taking 2 years of effort.

In reply to Stuart S:

I don't know. When I say months of climbing 2 years may fall into that assuming that Dave Mc did do other things during that period (o which judging by his ticklist he did). By the time you get to such a large range of grades you get close to the point of just not being able to do it however much time. I usually expect to rp 7b in a few hours, very few have taken me more than a day but aren't likely to climb 8a+ any time soon however much time I spend on it.

Maybe Rhapsody is E11 - it certainly looks a very likely candidate for the hardest piece of trad climbing in the country. My query is that in my experience at a more lowly level a given trad grade covers a wide range of difficulty and it seems slightly unusual to me to have an E11 when we have very few E10's - and less by the minute as Dave Mc downgrades them!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: The other concern is if the grades are condensed then does this now mean all the classic HVSs are VS and VSs severe JUST A THOUGHT

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Tour de France have the right idea. Climbs graded 1-4 and then 'hors categorie'. A point where categorisation would be pointelss hair splitting and , for most of us, completely redundant.

Maybe all leads at at a level above which an onsight has been achieved (E8?) should just be 'hors categorie' as they haven't been onsight led in any case.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: How can Rhapsody be harder than Bella Vista ???

In reply to Hardman:

Dear Nardman

Please refrain from thinking too much, it is not your forte. It would mean not only classic HVSs, but ordinary HVSs and rubbish HVSs as well.

Norrie

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:Your right Norrie
But what about Bella Vista has Mcloud got the minerals for it?

In reply to Hardman:

Dear Hardman

I don't know, time will tell. Did you know that Dave does not spend all his time rock climbing, he does winter climbing as well.

Norrie

PS Sorry about my typing error in your name in the last post.

In reply to Hardman: who'd want to climb Bellavista, isn't that on some pile of limestone choss in the dolomites, Rhapsody however is.....

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

a buckfast crag?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Good for Dave. What a legend. Most exciting climber in recent years by some way IMO.

Good to have someone who is prepared to make clear opinions about grades and style and stuff. The scene needs him.

In reply to Hardman: If you mean Bella Vista in the Tre Cime, then Dave was on that route 2 summers ago. From what I remember him telling me, he unwittingly climbed very very boldly to the crux roof, not realising that the first ascensionist had stripped most of the pegs. Dave said he would think about reequiping it himself but didn't have time that trip. So i guess the answer to your question is YES!

In reply to Not Fozzz:
(...)Climbs graded 1-4 and then 'hors categorie'. A point where categorisation would be pointelss hair splitting and , for most of us, completely redundant.

THEN what would we do all day? It'd be the end of the forums

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

Just get out climbing and stop moaning and bitch*ng everyone!




Thank you, man.

In reply to Not Fozzz:

thought is was called HXS
Mike

In reply to everyone: Wow, I'm surprised by the interest in this route's grade. It's quality really is more interesting. Regarding grading of 'big Es' I feel that many of you expect too much from a system that depends on confirmations from many ascentionists, where the top grades have yet to have many ascentionists. Mick Ryan is on the money with his comments. I have posted some more thoughts on my site www.davemacleod.blogspot.com

Marc C said: Dave's justification that, although he's downgraded DY, E8 is still hard for a mountain route: Well, of course it IS a hard grade (!), but I wonder why mountain routes should somehow be graded 'more leniently' because they are mountain routes rather than shorter grit testpieces? (this veers close to the old Scottish 'under-grading all hard routes as VS' tradition -"Well we *know* mountain routes are traditionally more serious and more remote and more strenuous to place gear on, but people expect that"). This would seem to compromise the purported universalism of the E-grading system.


b) Dave's statement that grades can change, they exist only in the heads of climbers: Well, the first part is patently true - grades take a while to settle down to some consensus. The second part (that they exist only in the heads of climbers) strikes me as an absurd form of philosophical idealism.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.comave is it true you did'nt do the hard bottom crack of Breathless.
And you had an incident with Birkett at Kendall ?

In reply to Dave MacLeod: Thanks for your clarification of Pooint A Dave. Fair comment. Think we could have a massive philosophical debate about Point B, though! Of course, grades are a human construct - but they are an attempt to REPRESENT a concept of difficulty that has different levels (of course, these levels are artificial). So while I take the general truth of your 'all in our heads' assertion, what I meant was that that they are not radically subjective (we don't use language as individuals but as linguistic communities - what you refer to as 'cat' should be the same physical entity as I intend when I use the word 'cat' - and the same with grades: your' E8' should, within certain parameters, be roughly equivalent to my use of 'E8 - so, yes, in OUR heads as a result of tests against the climb's difficulty; but not just what I happen to think up in my own little pointy head!). Phew

from reading his blog his project route on the Ben must be seriously impressive and impressively serious...be great to see another big route added to the Ben...

D

In reply to Marc C:
'Some meme-theorists contend that memes most beneficial to their hosts will not necessarily survive; rather, those memes which replicate the most effectively spread best; which allows for the possibility that successful memes might prove detrimental to their hosts'

In reply to Hardman:

>hard bottom crack

Why don't you give it a rest and stick your snipey ways up your own bottom crack?

Davie

Marc: roughly equivalent is just that - roughly, with quite a wide margin for error from all the other factors going on.

In reply to Hardman:

I climbed the lower crack of Breathless, but did the last move of this section a much easier way than DB. The move was too ridiculously eliminate to me - your right hand reaches past a good hold (which I used) on the right to get a small hold (1 hard move) and then the gear break and rest. You can see me climbing the lower crak on the video on www.scottishclimbs.com. I would do the same a second time. I did the move both ways on the toprope. I discussed this with DB over a pint at Kendal.