UKC

In conversation with John Dunne yesterday Jordan Buys was discussing how standards have risen in the last few years, with grades settling and quick ascents of high number grit routes.....the reasons for this is why young climbers like Jordan can make stylish ascents of routes like Carmen Picasso, a 1997 John Dunne route at the mythical Gorple in West Yorkshire.


More in the news at UKClimbing.com http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Congratulations Jordan!
A fantastic effort from a talented man.

I think the rise in standards and improving style of ascents is a natural progression of the training mentality first adopted by Livesey, Fawcett, Syrett and others.

There are a lot more climbers now than in the seventies so the number of people operating at the top level is bound to increase..

When I first climbed with Jordan we both had lead E4, he now leads E8 and I have never lead harder than E4..

The difference? Well apart from a prodigious talent, Jordan is equipped with a steely will. it is this that seperates the best from the punters...

Of which there are millions...

In reply to Daniel Armitage:

I agree that this was a great effort by Jordan, and may be an improvement on previous ascents, but it clearly wasn´t an on-sight ascent if any gear was pre-placed or pre-tested.

SW

In reply to switch: Well it was, as the actual climbing was done onsight.

So maybe onsight with preplaced gear?

In reply to Oli: Surely you have to know something in order to know that gear needs to be pre-placed?

In reply to Richard Bradley: From reading a guide?

In reply to Oli:

I agree with this definition,the climbing was completely onsight and fair do's to anyone who wants to place it on lead. It might not be worth the effort anyway?
Best thing about the whole thing is that I have always wanted to do Carmen Picasso onsight and could not have had a bigger smile than after topping out that sunny afternoon. I hope at least other people will achieve their goals too. Also, hello Dan : ) looking forward to buoux

In reply to Jordan: Congrats Jordan, a fine effort!

In reply to Jordan: Again, good effort. I hope you keep getting more hard routes repeated.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: If this is the definition of on-sight then on-sight could mean climbing something on top rope that you'd watched someone abbing down.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Nice one Jordan.
And for all you doubters, this is definately onsight. Gear in or out has no meaning, it is info about moves which would turn an onsight into a flash.
This is onsight with preplaced gear as someone already said.
You cannot onsight on a toprope! A toprope is not a valid ascent really.

In reply to aln:

are you stupid of something?

Sounds like an excellent ascent

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

This isn't a dig at Jordan, his was a fine effort and a top ascent. That rock-over is wiggy and very gritty. Nice one. However:

Carmen Picasso isn't really an E8. Flashing something on pre-placed gear isn't really trad onsighting.

It's a shame all this recent American style hyperbole news reporting is casting a negative shadow on some peoples achievements.

Don't make UKC's news not worth reading. We want facts not headlines.

In reply to Shy Yorkshireman #3:


The facts are there in the news report. Jordan has been perfectly honest as to the style of his ascent.

The confusion arises over different definitions and understandings of the terminology we use to describe different ascents. It is clear that there are many definitions. To quote the news report:

"Jordan and his wife Naomi walked the 2 miles across moorland to Upper Gorple and when there Naomi abbed the route placing the top wire, a marginal DMM Peenut 2. Jordan then, without having been on the route or seen anyone do the moves, climbed it in one push. He did have a scary moment a couple of moves above the wire where a fall would more than likey rip the Peenut and end up in a deck-out. The best ascent so far of this route, and as near as damn it climbed onsight. Some will argue that pre-placed gear negates the pure onsight for a gear route, but of course that is open to discussion. Comparing this ascent with his other hard repeats he thought the route E8 for him."

As I said, whether this a pure onsight, or whether it is negated by pre-placed gear is open to discussion, and opinion....and that is what is happening here.

Always read behind the headlines, that is where the real story is.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Would it have made a difference if they were unmarried?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I quote:

Andy Earl Climbs Careless Torque..Onsight of course
NEWS: Jordan Buys On Form and Cranking: Onsights E8

In reply to Shy Yorkshireman #3:

You'll have to explain.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I think he refers to the headline on the article.

In reply to Richard Bradley:

I know that. But what is the significance?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: They're sensationalised and perhaps bends the meaning of the word 'onsight' which for trad will be climbing a route without any previous knowledge of it at all? Anway, despite some of your rather odd headlines its good that the best climbers in all forms of the sport are getting recognition so well done to them.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Your headline states that it is an onsight? You have to read the article to find out that the gear (one piece of gear?) was pre-placed.

In reply to JoeL 90:

That's the point surely. All the words that describe ascents at the upper levels are 'bent' and never fully describe the style of ascent. For example, many onsights of sport routes have the quickdraws already insitu, when clearly placing the quickdraws in the bolts as you climb and then clipping the rope in is harder than just clipping the rope into insitu quickdraws....but that difference is never described.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: But that is just sport climbing shirley?

We have to take a pure ethical stance on trad or alternatively start using French grades?

Richard ( Devil's advocate) Bradley.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Does 'Onsight' need to be in the Heading, and if so, why?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: You do appear to (at times) report things in a deliberately contentious way.

By the way, well done JB on the climb.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

The issue isn't with technical meanings of words, it's with the common usage. With sport climbing "onsight" has come to mean "with no knowledge, first go", whether the draws are in or not makes no difference to whether it was onsight, in fact if the onsight was hard it would be assumed they were in. If draws were placed on lead this would be mentioned if it made the ascent much harder. With trad routes, 'onsight' has come to mean "no prior knowledge, first go, placing gear", and unless other words are added this is what people will interpret it as, despite the fact that technically "onsight" may be shorthand for either "onsight with falls" (which has come to be replaced with "ground-up") or "onsight flash". This has probably happened as the common sportclimbing usage of onsight has been applied back to trad routes. The most important thing in climbing is honesty about style, and reporting should lead the way in this respect. The best way to be accurate when reporting news is to presume that a term will be understood to have its common meaning, and if the truth is somewhat different that term should be used carefully.

In reply to RupertD:

Thanks for that clarification Rupert.

Mick

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Yes, first because the common usage is so muddled in the climbing community.

Second because with this ascent an onsight has been claimed.

Thirdly, discussions like this help in the clarification of the terms used.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Thanks, you do seem to need help.

If, UKC had a FAQ section, you could look up the information you need.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Add to 'you' about 90,000 other people who read the forums and news page each month at UKClimbing.com and aren't too familiar with all these terms.

M

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Maybe you should get this lot to have banner advertising on UKC http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/links/adult.html

In reply to Norrie Muir:

?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

If the 'about 90,000 other people who read the forums and news page each month at UKClimbing.com and aren't too familiar with all these terms.' have not understood the numerous post about climbing terms, they must have difficulty with reading.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Reading and understanding are not the same thing - comprehendez ?

In reply to Simon Lee:

I do know that, but the poor souls have to start reading first.

Can I just point out that Jordan did place some gear on lead and that the very tiny nut I did place was more of an experiment than anything else. We went back for some photos yesterday (with a safety rope in place!!) and the wire in question kept falling out. Incidentally, Jordan really struggled with the top crux moves too. A fall from here would result in hitting the deck. This is a serious route, don't forget it was originally given E9.

If this ascent was not an onsight, what was it? More than a flash because he had not watched anyone on the moves or examined them for himself. Not a ground-up because he didn't fall off.

He is being totally honest reporting it as an onsight with some pre-placed gear.

What more do you want???

In reply to Naomi Buys:


That is exactly it. A very admirable style of ascent for an E8 (okay it's not as totally pure as an onsight placing gear BUT it is very close and a hell of a lot better than any headpointing bollox), I respect him for pushing the boundaries of style, and hopefully he and others will continue to do so.

In reply to Fiend:

Thanks. I will tell Jordan all the positive comments on here. He is well chuffed anyway.

In reply to Naomi Buys:

I wouldn't bother with the negative comments. Sounds like an on-sight ascent with 1 pre-placed dodgy nut to me.

Fantastic effort in good style. Well done Jordan!

In reply to Naomi Buys:

I want to hear more honest and accurate reporting, so tell Jordan, well done.

In reply to Naomi Buys: I think the negativity was aimed more at the way it was reported than the actual climb.

In reply to Richard Bradley:

No it wasn't Richard and if it was it was reported honestly. Jordan is very pleased how I reported this ascent and I spoke to both Jordan and Naomi before I wrote the report.

The negativity comes from the grade/style pedants and very muddled definitions and understandings of words that attempt to describe the style of ascents.

Also, the English love a good tattle about style and grades, almost as much as the Yanks love a good tattle about the style of first ascents and ground-up versus rap bolts.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: "Also, the 'English' love a good tattle about style and grades,"

As opposed to the Welsh, the Scots or the Irish who presumably don't bother about such things?

In reply to Simon Panton:
Yes, we are above all that pettiness.

In reply to Norrie Muir: Yep, you have the moral high ground or E11 as it's known down here.

In reply to Simon Panton:

As Norrie will no doubt tell you.

In reply to Naomi Buys: Hi Nao!

Dan here! I think everyone agrees it was a quality ascent, and as one who knows what type of climbers you guys are I don't think many are that well qualified to quibble with the grade..

I think Shy Yorkshireman number 3 would be better named Green Yorkshireman number 1..

Obviously if he had a profile we could check his credentials and see that his ascent on sight of Carmen Picasso, VS was much cleaner ethically....

Otherwise...

By the way Statesman is only HVS and i found it to be rather a path when i climbed it on a rainy day in my Nike Airmax and Superman underpants...

on a (even) lighter note.

Looking forward to France its gonna be great..

In reply to Daniel Armitage: So folks, be careful not be critical (even indirectly) of Dan's friends.

Have a great time in France by the way.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Mick, you are right on the ball today. You should have posted - "As Norrie told you.".

In reply to Richard Bradley:
Yes! be afraid, very afraid i have powers you may not be aware of...


Thanks.