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Who had a crag to themselves this weekend ?

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 GrahamD 10 Apr 2007
Anyone else lucky enough to get a crag to themselves this weekend? We lucked out for 2 days in Cornwall and got Carn Gloose, Gurnards Head and the Mercury area and A and B buttresses at Carn Gowla all to ourselves Friday/Saturday.

Compare and contrast with the honeypots of Sennen/Dewerstone Sunday and Monday.

I sometimes feel that some people like climbing in crowds !
 Marc C 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: No one at Lumbutts - mind you, there *never* is!
 Ed Booth 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: We got the whole expanse of the Rainbow Slab to ourselves up in the quarries. What a fab day! Ed
 CJD 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

only one other party on aonach dubh on sunday.
 KeithW 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Climbed "The Crag of the Big Cowshed" on Crib Goch on Saturday, no-one else even within sight.
 Richard Horn 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Not me, didnt bother counting how many people at Bas Cuvier yesterday...
 jeni222uk 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: Lovely quiet climbing at both Torquay and Avon over the weekend.
 orge 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

We had most of Wharncliffe to ourselves on Friday and it was fairly quiet at Widdop on Sunday.

J
 bpmclimb 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: We've been in Guernsey for 10 days or so - been out a lot and yet to see another climber
 Joe G 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Strangely, yes. I thought the Northern corries would be hoaching but we had Saturday afternoon to ourselves in Coire an t-Sneachda, and the Loch Avon basin was very quiet on Friday.
 David Hooper 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Loads of cars in the Pass on Sunday afternoon - but barely half dozen teams I could see climbing anywhere. Spookily quiet.
In reply to GrahamD: We had castle rock to ourselves on Good Firday and High Crag Buttermere on Sunday. Shepherds Carpark didn't look full either.
In reply to GrahamD:

Had all of those to myself at one time or another - reckon you'd be very unlucky to hit another party on any of them.

Cornakey and Compass Point last week - midweek mind.

For some reason this thread reminds me of doing String of Pearls on Easter Sunday ten years ago. Actually we had that to ourselves until we got as far as Suicide Wall, but after that we met weeping girlfriends failing to follow Suicide Wall, runner-crossing fun on LBJ, over-friendly belays on Bow Wall, the works. Not a good choice of route and day, really. I guess some people must just like climbing in crowds.....

jcm
 Monk 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: Oh yes - Gardoms on Friday. Peak gritstone with no punters (except me)! I love it!
 jkarran 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Rylstone felt more like Stanage popular than its usual deserted foreboding self on Saturday. Even Filey was 'busy' on Thursday!

jk
 datoon 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: We had some of the South Coast to our own as well... Maer on Friday, hardly anybody at Sharpnose on Sat - 3 other parties?, only 2 other people at the Cow & Calf on Sun, and then no 1 at Dyer's lookout on Monday...

Sshh don't tell everyone about the great bits of the coast that no1 seems to go to, is rather magically having very little hussle and bussle...
 Smitz 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: I "almost" did. Went to a very esoteric crag in the dublin hills, looked like no one had been there for weeks if not years.

I say "almost" as my driver insisted on following me around, you just can't finnd the staff these days.
In reply to GrahamD: We had Juniper Wall to ourselves on Easter Sunday, with Assassin - the best HVS in the Gower!

There was no one at Paviland either, but then I'm not surprised - never been to any crag that overgrown. Pretty much unclimbable
 net 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: We had Cold Stone Crag, right on the Lancashire/Yorkshire border to ourselves yesterday. Which wasn't surprising, given it was cold, windy, deep in the cloud and then started raining. And it's a tiny crag.

Ah well, at least it had esoteric novelty value. And at least I actually managed to find it this time...
Yorkspud 10 Apr 2007
In reply to Marc C:

Tell me you didn't spend the whole weekend there Marc!
TimS 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: Rylstone was surprisingly busy on saturday around the Dental Slab/Presidents Slab area, but the rest of the crag was completely deserted. Nothing like a 3 star diff and a 3 star severe within 100 feet of each other to cause honeypotting!
 kathrync 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

We had Bowfell Buttress all to ourselves on Saturday which surprised me considering it is not just a 3-star classic vdiff but also a very nice route, and the weather was glorious! I guess it's the walk-in that puts people off.

Took my Dad up Langdale Pike via Jake's Rake on Sunday, again in glorious weather, and although there were people there were surprisingly few of them. We only saw three other parties on Jake's Rake itself.

K
 LakesWinter 10 Apr 2007
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: shepherd's was fairly empty at 4pm saturday when we paid a quick visit.
 AJM 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Gurnard's Head & Carn Kendijack on Friday morning and afternoon respectively.

Dewerstone was busy wasn't it, that main area at least. Mind you, we went up and did Needle Arete and Spiders Web, and that area was almost empty, Spiders Web was filthy/ivy ridden at the start too, which for a *** HVS on a popular crag is unusual.

My partner and I spoke to two guys from Cambridge there who were doing an E1 up the right wall of Central Groove at about 2-3pm. Wasn't you was it?

AJM
 SouthernSteve 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Burbage was extraordinarily quiet on Sunday morning. We wandered along picking our climbs with no competition until about 3pm! Guess everyone was sitting at home eating turkey and easter eggs! We arrived really early to avoid the crowds and froze in a chill wind for about 2 hours.
 JDDD 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: Stanage Popular was completely deserted all weekend long. Didn't see a sole. I guess everyone was elsewhere looking for "deserted" crags!
 Ropeboy 10 Apr 2007
In reply to:

Chee Tor was deserted on Friday.

J
 TN 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Wharncliff was surprisingly busy yesterday morning - to the point where people were starting up routes before the previous party had finished it... (yes, really!)
Wharncliff - it's the new Stanage.
OP GrahamD 10 Apr 2007
In reply to AJM:

Ah Ha ! I have a face to the name at last. I was the one seconding Scimitar whilst you were on CG.
 popebenedictus 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Saturday afternoon at Brimham was mysteriously quiet.

We were up at Duggies Dilemma on our own, then moved on to Fag Slab where we were also on our own.
Finally we decided as it was so quiet we would have a crack at Lovers Leap where we finally met some other climbers who were packing up and heading off home.
Strange.
 co1ps 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: bouldering on Owler Tor on Friday, had the place to ourselves. Could see the popular end of Stanage absolutely crawling in the distance. One or two teams out in Chee Dale yesterday, but you could pick a crag to have to yourself (except Max Wall which was v busy).
Thank god for Stanage.
OP GrahamD 10 Apr 2007
In reply to all:

Good to see that there are still plenty of venues which are quiet even on a bank holiday as good as the last one.
XXXX 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Great How Crag, deserted on Friday. Saw 4 other people walking up the Old Man afterwards.

Cam Crag Ridge (OK, not a climb but still a very popular scramble) had one other party. Saw very few people out walking over Glaramara.

Scout Crags on Sunday we finally found some more people but it wasn't very busy considering the 5 minute walk in!

So where WAS everyone? There were plenty of cars about in the Lakes but noone seemed to be in the fells at all, except a few families trolling around the valleys.



Colin 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:
So what did you get done then, any of your hit list?

Colin
 AJM 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Ah Ha! indeed........

I was the second, we spoke briefly before you started off.

A good weekend all-round, and the advantage of the Dewerstone (and of my new home of course) is that I was home in about two and a half hours. I can see a lot more time spent down that way in future, starting with the next bank holiday.........

AJM
 Andy Farnell 10 Apr 2007
In reply to AJM: Kilnsey only had 2 other parties on Sat, in perfect bone dry, warm and light wind conditions!

Andy F
 Chris H 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: Shag (splutter) Crag near Cligga Head was unsuprisingly not busy on Easter Mon.
OP GrahamD 10 Apr 2007
In reply to Colin:

Mainly Charle's list: Astral Stroll; Mercury, Journey to Ixlan (think climbing shredded wheat). I also got lost on Right Angle !!
 1234None 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Had a day at Rivelin yesterday, and there were only a few other climbing...
 Big Steve 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: Chatsworth, Friday. For most fo the day we were the only ones there, and when another small group turned up the were only there for an hour or so
 punter 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

We had Craig y Gesail to ourselves for the whole of the Sunday.

Saturday was spent on Craig Alltrem, only 2 other parties there. Talking to a climber from one of them, the Pass was not a peaceful place to be, that day, at least on the easily accessible crags.
KA 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:
Me!!!
Had an area of Maeshafn (Clwyd Limestone) all to ourselves and I onsighted my first HS then did 2 more!!!!Brilliant!
 Neil Henson 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: We were the only ones at Dovestone Tor on Sunday. Was very windy though.
 TobyA 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: Our crag was also empty, which might have had something to with the fact that it was snowing off and on and blowing a hoolie. It was dry enough to climb, but hardly warm enough. I blame my mate for making us go there. Bar steward. I could have been miserable at home in the warm.

http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2007/04/more-youtube-junk.html

He'll read this so I better say that I love him really, although he probably owes me coffee and donuts.
mavis 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: we had hedbry pretty much to ourselves. seems like there wasnt many people out this weekend if every where was quite. And I do like climbing in crouds.
 Si dH 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:
White Gill (Langdale), Good Friday - all to ourselves in the morning, two other parties turned up afternoon.

Black Crag (Borrowdale), Easter Saturday - all to ourselves until about 11am, 3 other parties turned up and went at various times throughout the day, not more than 2 at once.

Castle, Easter Sunday - had South Crag to ourselves in the mornind and North Crag to ourselves inthe afternoon (when there were 3 other parties on South Crag I think).

Was pretty amazed all roudn by this. HAd expetced teh latter tw ocrags in particualr to be rammed this weekend. It seems no-one climbs in the lake at Easter, just walks. Went for a walk aroudn Buttermere today and there must have been 500 people passing through Scarth Gap.
 Mike C 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Greymare Slabs on the Aberdeenshire coast last Saturday, we had it to ourselves, though as a party of 9 it was the busiest I've ever seen the crag!
 Peakphil 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Newstones and Baldstones were deserted today!!

Not surprising considering it was dull, damp and blowing a gale...too manky to do Original Route but we did do a few nice HVS's

Baldstones Arete is a fantastic climb...worth every one of its 3 stars...A GREAT ROUTE!!!

Phil
 Reaver2k 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Me, my dad, my brother and a group of friends had Dovestones Edge to ourselves on Sunday, good day, a little cold in that shade and wind though!
 pog100 10 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

We had the whole of Dovestones Edge to ourselves right through Sunday. Lovely views if a little windy at times!

Mike
 pog100 10 Apr 2007
In reply to Reaver2k:

Bugger, now you KNOW we are a family that never talks!
Yrmenlaf 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

I did. Crag Willas, Thursday evening.

Y.
stuartgmilton 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Not really a Crag, but the South Cuilin Ridge. Very nice up there, but a bit interesting in the cloud.
 Joss 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

We had the Roaches to ourselves on Sunday, well.. for an hour at least! We stayed at the hut and were the first ones on the crag at 7.45am!
 pencilled in 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

We had Mother Carey's Kitchen to ourselves and some seals on Monday.
 cathsullivan 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Yes. Creagan a' Choire Etchacan on Sunday.
shortarse 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Had around a dozen sandstone crags, some up to around 120 feet high, some trad, some sports, plus a lifetime of boulders lying around all to myself. And the temp was around 25C. It's a hard life.
OP GrahamD 11 Apr 2007
In reply to All:

Blimey ! this must be getting on for one of the longest threads I've started. Even discounting people who got on the crag at sparrow fart (good effort BTW)there is obviously still plenty of solitude to be had.

Maybe I should have asked who climbed at a crowded crag all weekend !
 BenTiffin 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: Corrie na Ciste on the Ben on Friday evening,

The Orion Basin on Saturday morning.

Ben
The Fairy Gothmother 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:
Curbar's neighbour, Baslow Edge. Being a wuss who didn't fancy the crag, I read the whole of 'Rebecca' and didn't climb at all, but I was with two others who got a few seemingly nasty and short routes done.
 Jus 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Practically had the every crag to ourselves for the last 10 days days in Cornwall.

Sennen, Chair Ladder, Carn Barra, Levan's Wall, Cribba Head, Logan's Rock area etc.

Was awesome. Didn't wanna leave. How much does work suck?!
OP GrahamD 11 Apr 2007
In reply to Jus:

> Was awesome. Didn't wanna leave. How much does work suck?!

Not half ! not sure if my finger tips could take much more than 4 days in Cornwall mind !
 Caralynh 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Got over to Crystal Slabs in Pembroke by about 3.30 on Monday, and had the place to ourselves after about 5. Left there at about 7, so enjoyed the solitude.
Sort of had Rusty Point to ourselves yesterday, except for the coastal path walkers who kept stopping to try and work out exactly WHY 2 people were abseiling down a hole in the ground and giggling!
 andi_e 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: Apart from some annoying peope who had pitched their tents under Stall, Gib Torr, who later left, I was alone most of the time.
 Marcus 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: So did we - in Cornwall. It never used to be like this.
 Adam Long 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

No one else at Craig Dorys. Perfect conditions.
 Jus 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to Jus)
>
> [...]
>
> Not half ! not sure if my finger tips could take much more than 4 days in Cornwall mind !

We did a fair bit of lounging about & swimming too
bezzer555 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: me and my girlfriend had hobson moor all to our selves today.
and we spent the day climbing in the sun.
even better
Dead Goat's Society 11 Apr 2007
In reply to Smitz:

>>Went to a very esoteric crag in the dublin hills

Which crag was that?

We had Polldoo Valley all to ourselves up in Donegal, climbing on probably the finest boulder in Ireland, Echo rock.
Ciara 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

And we had Gola (island off Donegal) all to ourselves over the weekend, absolutely beautiful spot.
OP GrahamD 11 Apr 2007
In reply to Ciara:

You might expect that, I guess ? sounds idylic (when it doesn't rain !)
 Gabe 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: We got Idwal slabs to ourselves on Sat. But only for about 5 mins. Still it was nice whilst it lasted!!!
 fivestar 11 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: I had a very quiet and very sunny couple of hours bouldering in Godrevy yesterday. Very pleasant.
 Marc C 11 Apr 2007
In reply to Yorkspud:
> (In reply to Marc C)
>
> Tell me you didn't spend the whole weekend there Marc!>

No, nipped down to The Shepherd's Rest for meals - so, no, not the whole 3 days

 annakyn 11 Apr 2007
I don't think I've ever been out up here in Shetland and NOT had the crag to ourselves! We're actually looking forward to the day its popular enough up here that you meet people out!
wyeme 12 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:
no one at Pellitras Point, or Porth Loe and just a couple at Tregiffian - yes, small crags with lowly grades but just great to be out in the sun above the waves...
 Simon Caldwell 15 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:
Yup - we had Heulaugh (Crag Willas) entirely to ourselves yesterday, and in perfect Goldilocks weather, not too hot, not too cold, but just right
 SebCa 15 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: ME and Al today, Parbold!

Lovely day, pleanty of top roping, and lazing around, really good day!
 MRJ 15 Apr 2007
In reply to Jimbo MSider:
Had the Rannoch wall to ourselves on thurs :P
Only other party we saw was some parents with their 8-10 year old daughter(!) going up curved ridge.
Impressive!

-Magnus
 Ian_Whitfield 15 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

My son and I had a great afternoon recently at Rainster rocks near Brassington, nothing too strenuous just good fun!
In reply to MRJ: what taking an 8 year old up a mod? hardly. when you consider that kid of that age have lead f7a.
 MRJ 15 Apr 2007
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Still a F7a is just ability, but it takes some bravery for a 8 year old girl to do such a long, high, and exposed route, regardless of the difficulty.
To be honest, I have done easier less exposed scrambles with 17 year old boys and girls who were absolutly terrified.
Personally, I thought it was awsome. I wish my parents had done that kind opf thing with me!

-Magnus
 sutty 15 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Small esoteric crag but nobody else there, just me and the grouse.
 Mike C 15 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Went up Clach na Beinn today with nick nc, whilst the hill was heaving, we were the only ones climbing (or maybe abseiling as one walker accused us of - actually we never had to).
 184Dave 15 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: Went to swanage and at boulder ruckle you would have thought it would be crawling but it was deserted blistering hot and good climbing desserted...
 craig h 15 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

Had Aldermans all to ourselves yesterday, but there was about 30 people at The Standing Stones today, I hope this trend will continue!

Most people I have ever seen here in the 20 years I have spent visiting the crag.
Iain Forrest 16 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:
As far as we could tell, we had Sron na Ciche and the South Face of Sgurr Alasdair to ourselves on Saturday.
This was surprising, as it was warm and sunny.
J1234 16 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:
Had a whole valley to ourselves yesterday. Set off from Wasdale at 7.30am, climbed pillar rock and got back to the pub at 5.30pm and the only person we saw all day other than on distant ridges was one walker as we descended towards black sail from Pillar mountain, whats that all about?
 spyda 16 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: i had wilton 2and3 to myself last tuesday
Carnage 16 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: It happens so much of the time I've lost count. Aahh, the joys of loads of rock and (proportionally) no so many climbers.
 spyda 16 Apr 2007
In reply to spyda: apart than my dad almost throwing up at the top when belaying it was well good
 doz generale 16 Apr 2007
 Heike 16 Apr 2007
In reply to Iain Forrest:

We only had to share Carn Dearg on the Ben with one other party on the weekend. It was bone dry (well our route was and sunny! By the way, we did a Norrie route - anyone want to guess which one it was?


Iain Forrest 16 Apr 2007
In reply to Heike:
Was it quite Strident and kind of Edgey?
 Heike 16 Apr 2007
In reply to Iain Forrest:
No, no edge in sight - try again!

PS I must rephrase, I think he did the FFA
Iain Forrest 16 Apr 2007
In reply to Heike:
Did it involve any guerilla warfare?
 Heike 16 Apr 2007
In reply to Iain Forrest:
Well, it does involve a certain fictional giant ape if that's what you mean....

What did you do on Sron na Ciche?
Iain Forrest 16 Apr 2007
In reply to Heike:
That's the one I was thinking of! Well done on that so early in the season.
> What did you do on Sron na Ciche?
Direct Route - very pleasant, if not outstanding. The real gem was Commando Crack on Sgurr Alasdair, though - a magic wee route, good traditional Skye Severe.
 Heike 16 Apr 2007
In reply to Iain Forrest:
> The real gem was Commando Crack on Sgurr Alasdair, though - a magic wee route, good traditional Skye Severe.


Yeah, I loved that one, too. Brilliant. And it's such a magical place round in that corrie, too.


King Kong was bone dry - looked like the driest on the cliff, it was excellent
 Dave Wearing 16 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: Sun kissed Pillar Rock, only team there all day. Only met one walker, on the way back.
bezzer555 16 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: no chance of that, me and my girlfriend ended up at windgather and the place was rammed. except on the small boulders on the far left, and the small quarry at the other end.
 Norrie Muir 16 Apr 2007
In reply to Heike:

It sounds like you had another fine day.
 Heike 16 Apr 2007
In reply to Norrie Muir:

Yes. Brilliant - what a route!

Torro is just a touch better, I thought. Less choss near the top.
OP GrahamD 16 Apr 2007
In reply to all:

I think I fell into "must like climbing in crowds" category on Saturday. With an unexpected climbing pass out and total lack of imagination I joined the world and their dog at Gimmer !
 Norrie Muir 16 Apr 2007
In reply to Heike:
> (In reply to Norrie Muir)
>
> Torro is just a touch better, I thought. Less choss near the top.

Yes, Torro is superior, a better line and better climbing.
 SeeWhat 16 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:

To all intents and purposes, had pinnacle ridge on St Sunday crag to ourselves on Saturday, bar one guy heading off up it as we started and another group of 3 about 40 minutes or so behind.

May all sunny weekends on classic scrambles be like this.

 Auld mick 16 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: Far eastern buttress on aonoch dubh was great ,no one else till around 12ish and two gid routes yen and nirvana wall.Its allways worth goin a wee bit higher or further.The other 2 guys did rough slab then were going for nirvana wall,they said rough slab was good value.Anybody done routes on the momerath face in the lost valley before?
Mick
J1234 16 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to all)
>
> I think I fell into "must like climbing in crowds" category on Saturday. With an unexpected climbing pass out and total lack of imagination I joined the world and their dog at Gimmer !
Midweek climbing is the way ahead, a couple of weeks ago on a Wednesday had Gimmer to ourselves.

Rocmagnet 16 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD: Hen Cloud, a few ramblers and lots of noisy motocrossers but no other climbers in sight
 Jamie B 16 Apr 2007
In reply to Iain Forrest:

I thought Commando Crack was a contender for best mountain severe in Britain, although it would get HS in many places. Certainly much harder than Ardverikie Wall.
 Bob 16 Apr 2007
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to all)
>
> I think I fell into "must like climbing in crowds" category on Saturday. With an unexpected climbing pass out and total lack of imagination I joined the world and their dog at Gimmer !

Went to Gimmer yesterday and there were only around ten or a dozen teams which I was quite surprised at.

Went to Trow Gill on Friday and there were a total of six climbers on the crag. I think the youngest was 46!

boB
Iain Forrest 17 Apr 2007
In reply to Jamie B.:
Aye, I've done a few VSs elsewhere that felt easier. That's Skye, though - if Little Gully is Diff, Naismiths Route on the Tooth is V Diff, and the last pitch of Shangri La is VS 4c then Commando Crack is Severe (and Integrity Mild Severe and Wallworks Route Diff).
I've learned to keep a bit in reserve for Skye routes, particularly if they involve chimneys. At least it seems fairly internally consistent (with the exception of routes that have been upgraded more recently).
With regards to the difficulty of Commando Crack, all I can really say is that it felt harder than Cioch Direct or Integrity but easier than Shangri La.

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