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The North Wales bolting guidelines and American bolt chopper threads prompted the following thoughts. A couple of weeks ago as I discussed here, I did my first trip to Gogarth and climbed Lighthouse Arete. For the seemingly very few people in the UK who haven't climbed the route, it begins with a 55 mtr abseil to the base of the route. The abseil station is a collection of about ten different pitons, some stacked, linked together by numerous bits of tat of various different thicknesses, colours and age. I'll post a photo of it later to illustrate. From memory it probably dominates a bit under a square metre of rock with the pitons in different cracks and then all tied together (although almost certainly not fully equalised) at one point by the various bits of tat.
Some of the pegs looked rusty and flaky and some of the tat faded and old, although the sheer number of parts of the belay probably makes it safe. But it definitely looks a mess. Why isn't two well placed stainless steel eco bolts and chain (all painted to match the rock) not a better idea than that mess? Presumably other Gogarth rap points are similar? Another example is the Old Man of Stoer. I don't what it looks like now but when we did it about a decade ago the sheer amount of tat on top block was visible from the mainland cliff 100 mtrs away. Some of that tat looked like it was there from the first ascent.
So is littering and questionable safety of some abseil points a valid cost to pay for a continued "no drilling on sea or mountain cliffs" UK ethic? I used to think so, but now I wonder if we are not cutting off our nose to spite our face?
Some of the pegs looked rusty and flaky and some of the tat faded and old, although the sheer number of parts of the belay probably makes it safe. But it definitely looks a mess. Why isn't two well placed stainless steel eco bolts and chain (all painted to match the rock) not a better idea than that mess? Presumably other Gogarth rap points are similar? Another example is the Old Man of Stoer. I don't what it looks like now but when we did it about a decade ago the sheer amount of tat on top block was visible from the mainland cliff 100 mtrs away. Some of that tat looked like it was there from the first ascent.
So is littering and questionable safety of some abseil points a valid cost to pay for a continued "no drilling on sea or mountain cliffs" UK ethic? I used to think so, but now I wonder if we are not cutting off our nose to spite our face?
In reply to TobyA:
I certainly agree with you about the tat on the Old Man of Stoer, it's awful. I tend to agree with you that in very specific cases there would appear to be an environmental argument for a descrete chain over unsightly tat.
I suppose the problem becomes one of safety, people will start to rely on it rather than be responsible for setting up their own ab point. Who would be responsible for setting it up? Who is going to ensure that a remote chain and bolts are safe and replaced from time to time? Who will bear the costs involved?
I certainly agree with you about the tat on the Old Man of Stoer, it's awful. I tend to agree with you that in very specific cases there would appear to be an environmental argument for a descrete chain over unsightly tat.
I suppose the problem becomes one of safety, people will start to rely on it rather than be responsible for setting up their own ab point. Who would be responsible for setting it up? Who is going to ensure that a remote chain and bolts are safe and replaced from time to time? Who will bear the costs involved?
In reply to TobyA: 'painted to match the rock'
does that mean justifying rock coloured bolts anywhere then?
does that mean justifying rock coloured bolts anywhere then?
In reply to Gaz lord: I don't know what you mean by "justifying" really, but its the normal thing to do where I climb. Most bolts are spray painted to match the rock. Seems quite sensible to minimise the visual impact anywhere where it might be sensitive.
In reply to Trangia:
Oddly I discussed exactly that point about the rap point at the top of Castell Helen with my partner when we were there. Who placed all the pegs? Does anyone ever renew them (it didn't look like it)? Who adds tat? Does anyone ever take away old tat? I would have thought the ethical/legal issue would be no different with bolts, so its not really an argument against. Just as with sports climbs, a bolt doesn't remove our personal responsibility to make a decision as to whether that fixed gear is safe or not. We would all chose whether we do or don't use the ab point.
> I suppose the problem becomes one of safety, people will start to rely on it rather than be responsible for setting up their own ab point. Who would be responsible for setting it up? Who is going to ensure that a remote chain and bolts are safe and replaced from time to time? Who will bear the costs involved?
Oddly I discussed exactly that point about the rap point at the top of Castell Helen with my partner when we were there. Who placed all the pegs? Does anyone ever renew them (it didn't look like it)? Who adds tat? Does anyone ever take away old tat? I would have thought the ethical/legal issue would be no different with bolts, so its not really an argument against. Just as with sports climbs, a bolt doesn't remove our personal responsibility to make a decision as to whether that fixed gear is safe or not. We would all chose whether we do or don't use the ab point.
In reply to TobyA: i see poorley worded but its related to a thought i had a while ago, people here seem to see bolts as visual pollution but could using err 'camouflaged' bolts avoid this generally or is it going to sink back to ethics and principals again? and yep i wouldnt have a problem with 'proper' fixed abseil points, but then who is going to observe and replace over time? that seems the only shortfall.
In reply to TobyA:
It's the thin end of the wedge though isn't it. I agree the logic is flawed but it's just the rules we play the game with. I tend to argue that the crap pegs should be removed and three good ones placed and equalized with rock colored rope and a million as is the case on some of the ab stations on craeg Dubh..
It's the thin end of the wedge though isn't it. I agree the logic is flawed but it's just the rules we play the game with. I tend to argue that the crap pegs should be removed and three good ones placed and equalized with rock colored rope and a million as is the case on some of the ab stations on craeg Dubh..
or someone could just plant a 2 foot rust proof camouflaged stake. that would prevent drill holes at the top of cliffs if they were placed in a natural crack, last longer and would require less maintenance.
p.s. how long do bolts last anyway?
p.s. how long do bolts last anyway?
In reply to Gaz lord:
Up to 25 years
Up to 25 years
In reply to CurlyStevo:
No it isn't. What wedge exactly do you think it is the thin end of?
I started climbing in 1990 and limited sport climbing then was called the thin end of the wedge by some, that sooner or later grit would be bolted blah, blah, blah. It hasn't happened and won't. People like boB will tell you that exactly the same was said in the early 80s as well.
If you could abseil to the start of Lighthouse Arete from two bolts and chain, would you suddenly have the urge to grab a hilti and bolt the rest of the route? Where I climb many trad routes finish at lower off chains because people are more concerned about protect the cliff tops than small amounts of drilled gear. The trad routes all remain trad routes though, the lower off changes nothing.
> It's the thin end of the wedge though isn't it.
No it isn't. What wedge exactly do you think it is the thin end of?
I started climbing in 1990 and limited sport climbing then was called the thin end of the wedge by some, that sooner or later grit would be bolted blah, blah, blah. It hasn't happened and won't. People like boB will tell you that exactly the same was said in the early 80s as well.
If you could abseil to the start of Lighthouse Arete from two bolts and chain, would you suddenly have the urge to grab a hilti and bolt the rest of the route? Where I climb many trad routes finish at lower off chains because people are more concerned about protect the cliff tops than small amounts of drilled gear. The trad routes all remain trad routes though, the lower off changes nothing.
In reply to TobyA: There are any number of such eyesores on our sea cliffs. I tend to agree with you that a discreetly placed bolt or two would be a preferable solution. Another Gogarth example is The Strand, and a prominent Lundy eyesore is at the top of the first pitch of Roadrunner.
In reply to TobyA:
Toby, we have loweroffs, because the routes are short and often toproped or atleast cleaned during the loweroff... Adn besides SKIL pays for the bolts and even loans the Hilti .
Toby, we have loweroffs, because the routes are short and often toproped or atleast cleaned during the loweroff... Adn besides SKIL pays for the bolts and even loans the Hilti .
In reply to TobyA:
So where do you draw the line? Is it OK for for poor belays to be bolts too? What if the belay points are also abseil stations?
Are we allowed to replace pegs on routes with bolts? What if the pegs slots are now full of rusted up old peg stubs?
Personally I prefer to keep trad crags using trad gear (which does include the minimalist use of pegs but not bolts).
What's wrong with pulling out and dodgey pegs and replacing with new pegs, rock coloured equalizing rope and a mallion?
So where do you draw the line? Is it OK for for poor belays to be bolts too? What if the belay points are also abseil stations?
Are we allowed to replace pegs on routes with bolts? What if the pegs slots are now full of rusted up old peg stubs?
Personally I prefer to keep trad crags using trad gear (which does include the minimalist use of pegs but not bolts).
What's wrong with pulling out and dodgey pegs and replacing with new pegs, rock coloured equalizing rope and a mallion?
In reply to HeMa: This is true but in some places - one crag we are involved in developing currently for example - part of the deal with the landowner is to minimise people wondering around at the top - hence they want all routes to have lower offs. I was told the same when SKIL put in the lowers offs at the top Kvarnby.
I actually agree that many of the lower offs are totally unnecessary with so many trees around to provide easy and safe belays, and like you say it leads to people just lowering off and does mean Finnish climbers can be a bit shite at building belays when they first try multipitch trad routes! But I guess with timber being the value of much land many landowners are more interested in making sure no trees get damaged than in bolts! But anyway - having lots of lower offs doesn't lead to trad routes getting bolted, and in the UK case we are talking about rap stations which is a rather different kettle of fish to lower off/belays.
I actually agree that many of the lower offs are totally unnecessary with so many trees around to provide easy and safe belays, and like you say it leads to people just lowering off and does mean Finnish climbers can be a bit shite at building belays when they first try multipitch trad routes! But I guess with timber being the value of much land many landowners are more interested in making sure no trees get damaged than in bolts! But anyway - having lots of lower offs doesn't lead to trad routes getting bolted, and in the UK case we are talking about rap stations which is a rather different kettle of fish to lower off/belays.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
You have a point here. Maybe a better solution to the tat problem would be to intstil in all climbers a sense of duty to remove old unsafe tat and take it away with them when they set up a fresh anchor? That way the tat would be constantly recycled with the minimum of fresh stuff being left in situ. It could become part of the climbing community's accepted ethics.
> (In reply to TobyA)
>
> What's wrong with pulling out and dodgey pegs and replacing with new pegs, rock coloured equalizing rope and a mallion?
>
> What's wrong with pulling out and dodgey pegs and replacing with new pegs, rock coloured equalizing rope and a mallion?
You have a point here. Maybe a better solution to the tat problem would be to intstil in all climbers a sense of duty to remove old unsafe tat and take it away with them when they set up a fresh anchor? That way the tat would be constantly recycled with the minimum of fresh stuff being left in situ. It could become part of the climbing community's accepted ethics.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
At abseil points clearly.
No.
A handful of cases that can be discussed and decided on individually. Probably depends on whether they are covered in old tat or not. Name a specific example and then people can discuss it.
No.
No.
This is about abseil stations, not routes. Why do you think the former should have implications for the latter?
So you are in favour of leaving fixed gear on sea cliffs but not safe gear that needs replacing in decades but rather less safe gear that needs replacing in years/months?
Who does this? How long do you leave that rope for? What happens when someone comes along and says - "that rope might be UV degraded, I'm going to add this sling"?
> So where do you draw the line?
At abseil points clearly.
> Is it OK for for poor belays to be bolts too?
No.
> What if the belay points are also abseil stations?
A handful of cases that can be discussed and decided on individually. Probably depends on whether they are covered in old tat or not. Name a specific example and then people can discuss it.
> Are we allowed to replace pegs on routes with bolts?
No.
> What if the pegs slots are now full of rusted up old peg stubs?
No.
This is about abseil stations, not routes. Why do you think the former should have implications for the latter?
> Personally I prefer to keep trad crags using trad gear (which does include the minimalist use of pegs but not bolts).
So you are in favour of leaving fixed gear on sea cliffs but not safe gear that needs replacing in decades but rather less safe gear that needs replacing in years/months?
> What's wrong with pulling out and dodgey pegs and replacing with new pegs, rock coloured equalizing rope and a mallion?
Who does this? How long do you leave that rope for? What happens when someone comes along and says - "that rope might be UV degraded, I'm going to add this sling"?
In reply to Trangia:
I know a few people who remove material tat whenever they see it in any case.
I know a few people who remove material tat whenever they see it in any case.
In reply to TobyA:
A specific example it the abseil station at the end of pitch 2 of King Bee on Creag Dubh, this is currently equalized pegs using in situ 10mm black rope and a mallion. The reason for this 'tat' which actually is fairly discrete is because it's also an abseil station.
Unfortunately bolts are not the be all and end all solution always either. As only so many bolts can be placed in a piece of rock, when they are removed another bolt can not be placed in the same position and has to be a safe distance from the previous bolts.
I don't know who maintains the abseil stations that I've used in various places in the UK, I suspect a local climber or outdoor center that uses the crag a lot and does it out of either the kindness of their heart or for practical reasons.
A specific example it the abseil station at the end of pitch 2 of King Bee on Creag Dubh, this is currently equalized pegs using in situ 10mm black rope and a mallion. The reason for this 'tat' which actually is fairly discrete is because it's also an abseil station.
Unfortunately bolts are not the be all and end all solution always either. As only so many bolts can be placed in a piece of rock, when they are removed another bolt can not be placed in the same position and has to be a safe distance from the previous bolts.
I don't know who maintains the abseil stations that I've used in various places in the UK, I suspect a local climber or outdoor center that uses the crag a lot and does it out of either the kindness of their heart or for practical reasons.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Interesting - I didn't know Creag Dubh was a sea cliff!? Global warming really must be raising the sea levels.
> A specific example it the abseil station at the end of pitch 2 of King Bee on Creag Dubh,
Interesting - I didn't know Creag Dubh was a sea cliff!? Global warming really must be raising the sea levels.
In reply to TobyA:
OK so you are suggesting this practice is ok for sea cliffs but not in other cases why is that?
I guess the usual solution for sea cliffs is stakes in the ground, although this is rarely going to work for sea stacks which are obviously a special case.
OK so you are suggesting this practice is ok for sea cliffs but not in other cases why is that?
I guess the usual solution for sea cliffs is stakes in the ground, although this is rarely going to work for sea stacks which are obviously a special case.
In reply to TobyA:
Given recent rainfall it might as well be.
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)
>
> [...]
>
> Interesting - I didn't know Creag Dubh was a sea cliff!?
>
> [...]
>
> Interesting - I didn't know Creag Dubh was a sea cliff!?
Given recent rainfall it might as well be.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Pitons seem to age much much faster as a result of the salt air. I suppose that is why the ab point for lighthouse arete is made up with so many different pegs. Considering all the bolting at Portland for example, bolts don't seem to have this problem.
Stakes are the solution in some places where top outs tend to be into flat fields but I'm not sure if they are much less of visual eyesore than bolts let alone pitons and lots of old tat.
Presumably at Creag Dubh you can if you wish climb to the top and walk off anyway?
Sea cliffs are different because abseiling is need to access them in some cases.
> OK so you are suggesting this practice is ok for sea cliffs but not in other cases why is that?
Pitons seem to age much much faster as a result of the salt air. I suppose that is why the ab point for lighthouse arete is made up with so many different pegs. Considering all the bolting at Portland for example, bolts don't seem to have this problem.
Stakes are the solution in some places where top outs tend to be into flat fields but I'm not sure if they are much less of visual eyesore than bolts let alone pitons and lots of old tat.
Presumably at Creag Dubh you can if you wish climb to the top and walk off anyway?
Sea cliffs are different because abseiling is need to access them in some cases.
In reply to John2:
What's the state of the Roadrunner belay now? When we were there a couple of years ago we cleaned off all the old tat, removed some of the rusted gear and left several good bits equalised with a single piece of 10mm rope and a krab. Has it deteirorated again? I think we ended up removing about 10 rusty krabs and a whole armful of tat!
What's the state of the Roadrunner belay now? When we were there a couple of years ago we cleaned off all the old tat, removed some of the rusted gear and left several good bits equalised with a single piece of 10mm rope and a krab. Has it deteirorated again? I think we ended up removing about 10 rusty krabs and a whole armful of tat!
In reply to stuartf: I was there more than 2 years ago, but I do remember it as a quite outstanding eyesore. Well done for tidying it up.
In reply to TobyA:
I guess the similarity with Craeg Dubh is that often toping out is not a wise decision hence the abesil stations. However at Creag Dubh your not returning to your abseil point in most cases.
For sea cliffs (not stacks) in most cases climbers are returning to the ab point. Surely half the problem here is that people are not taking their tat home with them! For most the abseil points on sea clifs can't standard natural pro be used in anycase?
I'd vote that if the pegs are 100% necessary they are removed if old and replaced and that climbers take home any tat they place to use the pegs!
I guess the similarity with Craeg Dubh is that often toping out is not a wise decision hence the abesil stations. However at Creag Dubh your not returning to your abseil point in most cases.
For sea cliffs (not stacks) in most cases climbers are returning to the ab point. Surely half the problem here is that people are not taking their tat home with them! For most the abseil points on sea clifs can't standard natural pro be used in anycase?
I'd vote that if the pegs are 100% necessary they are removed if old and replaced and that climbers take home any tat they place to use the pegs!
In reply to TobyA:
Agree Toby - people seem to be getting confused between the trad / sport bore and keeping our trad cliffs clean. I can think of quite a few places where there is a tat eyesore that could be remedied by the careful use of a few bolts. If I think that it is too dodgy to use and replace it with some of my own – I do just that, replace it – not just add another layer. Did there used to be a tat eyesore on the top of the in-pin before that steel cable was put in ?
Agree Toby - people seem to be getting confused between the trad / sport bore and keeping our trad cliffs clean. I can think of quite a few places where there is a tat eyesore that could be remedied by the careful use of a few bolts. If I think that it is too dodgy to use and replace it with some of my own – I do just that, replace it – not just add another layer. Did there used to be a tat eyesore on the top of the in-pin before that steel cable was put in ?
In reply to TobyA:
Is the Castel Helen ab point really an eyesore? Who sees it? Just climbers, who's day is probably not going to be ruined or even influenced more than slightly by this supposed visual affront...
I grant you that the Old Man may be a different case, as it is a popular destination for sightsee-ers who may be a bit more non-plussed at the amount of highly visible tat.
Is the Castel Helen ab point really an eyesore? Who sees it? Just climbers, who's day is probably not going to be ruined or even influenced more than slightly by this supposed visual affront...
I grant you that the Old Man may be a different case, as it is a popular destination for sightsee-ers who may be a bit more non-plussed at the amount of highly visible tat.
In reply to Burnsie:
I've not done the in-pin before or since the cable was in place but that's a good example in someways. There may well be places where you don't need bolts at all - could the Old Man of Stoer have on steel cable instead of all the tat?
But the Castell Helen ab points probably needs pitons - otherwise Stevo's point is a fair one - if you can build an abseil with your own stuff, then collect it once you are back on the top of the cliff - fair enough, do that (of course sooner or later people would get their gear nicked!). But on multi-abseil approaches where you don't reascend the line of descent then bolt might be the answer.
Just for the record at a number of places in Lofoten, I've improved insitu trad rap points (and extra nut etc.) cut away old tat and carefully equalized new tat, but even though you know thats a service to other climbers it still feels bad leaving three or so nuts stuck in the cliff. Also we've replaced thin tat in Lofoten having no idea how old it was only to find out that it was put there a week ago. Of course the next party has no way of knowing that our tat is fresh either. Nylon seems particularly unsuitable for being left anywhere.
> Did there used to be a tat eyesore on the top of the in-pin before that steel cable was put in ?
I've not done the in-pin before or since the cable was in place but that's a good example in someways. There may well be places where you don't need bolts at all - could the Old Man of Stoer have on steel cable instead of all the tat?
But the Castell Helen ab points probably needs pitons - otherwise Stevo's point is a fair one - if you can build an abseil with your own stuff, then collect it once you are back on the top of the cliff - fair enough, do that (of course sooner or later people would get their gear nicked!). But on multi-abseil approaches where you don't reascend the line of descent then bolt might be the answer.
Just for the record at a number of places in Lofoten, I've improved insitu trad rap points (and extra nut etc.) cut away old tat and carefully equalized new tat, but even though you know thats a service to other climbers it still feels bad leaving three or so nuts stuck in the cliff. Also we've replaced thin tat in Lofoten having no idea how old it was only to find out that it was put there a week ago. Of course the next party has no way of knowing that our tat is fresh either. Nylon seems particularly unsuitable for being left anywhere.
In reply to Jamie B.:
I'd prefer not to see it if the alternative was a short chain and two bolts all colour coordinated to the rock - but even accepting your point, what about the longevity and not really knowing how good the ab point is questions?
> Is the Castel Helen ab point really an eyesore? Who sees it? Just climbers, who's day is probably not going to be ruined or even influenced more than slightly by this supposed visual affront...
I'd prefer not to see it if the alternative was a short chain and two bolts all colour coordinated to the rock - but even accepting your point, what about the longevity and not really knowing how good the ab point is questions?
In reply to TobyA:
In all honesty it looked bomber to me. I do recognise that people will often blindly trust something which has clearly become established as "the ab point". There are particularly worrying examples of this at Diabaig and Gimmer.
The situation in the mountains would be improved immensely if people as standard cut away and/or removed tat they didn't use.
In all honesty it looked bomber to me. I do recognise that people will often blindly trust something which has clearly become established as "the ab point". There are particularly worrying examples of this at Diabaig and Gimmer.
The situation in the mountains would be improved immensely if people as standard cut away and/or removed tat they didn't use.
In reply to Jamie B.: By that logic someone could say "are bolts really an eyesore?".... At the end of the day, in THIS case there is a whole heap of fixed rubbish-would it not be better to have a couple of bolts there instread? Continued replacement of pitons will progressively damage the rock, and if one corrodes and breaks during replacement there will be a rusty stump left, blocking the way for more pitons. Bolts on the other hand will have less visual impact and will be safe, plus they need less frequent replacement if they are installed well. If there is going to be ugly fixed gear then surely it should at least be safe? The logic that a bolt is bad but a cluster of dodgy pegs and tat is good seems twisted to me. Why is that? Because it's dangerous, and thats properly British? Don't get me wrong, I am not in favour of bolts in Britain. Theye do have their place, and generally that is not in the mountains or at adventure climbing destinations. However, in places where fixed gear has come to be relied upon for an absail such as this one, I think bolts would be a better option. This isn't really the thin end of any wedge, as long as there are people like the above who fight any bolting-without this self policing of British climbing I think we'd be clipping bolts at Stanage by now......
Sam
Sam
In reply to sam the man:
What logic? I have no issue with using bolts to make popular descents safer where neccessary. I'm just not convinced that Castel Helen is such a location.
What logic? I have no issue with using bolts to make popular descents safer where neccessary. I'm just not convinced that Castel Helen is such a location.
In reply to Jamie B.: "Is the Castel Helen ab point really an eyesore? Who sees it? Just climbers, who's day is probably not going to be ruined or even influenced more than slightly by this supposed visual affront... "
Sam
Sam
In reply to Jamie B.:
But nearby Rhoscolyn is, so I was told, although the belay bolts there are well hidden.
Anyone verify this?
Mick
> (In reply to sam the man)
>
> I'm just not convinced that Castel Helen is such a location.
>
> I'm just not convinced that Castel Helen is such a location.
But nearby Rhoscolyn is, so I was told, although the belay bolts there are well hidden.
Anyone verify this?
Mick
In reply to John2: 'Another Gogarth example is The Strabd'. You've lost me here, where does Strand need a bolt? There's belays at the bottom, belays at the top and you can scramble off.
In reply to sam the man:
I'm not sure what we're arguing about; I suspect that we in fact have very similar standpoints and are just picking over semantics.
I'm not sure what we're arguing about; I suspect that we in fact have very similar standpoints and are just picking over semantics.
In reply to TobyA:
While we're on the subject of Gogarth, and unashamedly playing Devils Advocate, does anyone think that The Enchanted Broccoli Garden should get a bolt put into it's death belay?
While we're on the subject of Gogarth, and unashamedly playing Devils Advocate, does anyone think that The Enchanted Broccoli Garden should get a bolt put into it's death belay?
In reply to Rob Exile Ward: I mean the lower off at the top. It's rather different from the /Castell Helen ab point, in that it would be possible to just walk off from that point, but my point is that it is an undeniable eyesore and if it really is necessary to have a lower off at that point a bolted one would be less obtrusive.
Actually the more I think about this the worse I think the idea of a bolted lower off at this point to be, but I do think that the present arrangement is an eyesore.
Actually the more I think about this the worse I think the idea of a bolted lower off at this point to be, but I do think that the present arrangement is an eyesore.
In reply to Jamie B.: I wasn't arguing really, just saying that it is probably more of an eyesore than bolts would be-like you I am only in favour where nessecary, but IMHO if there is going to be permanent fixed gear then it ought to be safe.
Sam
Sam
In reply to Jamie B.:
Having difficulty in reading, have ya.
I mean my english is crap, so I might be wrong... But I tought we were talking about rap-anchors for accessing the ledges and start of the routes, not belays in the actual routes.
> (In reply to TobyA)
>
> While we're on the subject of Gogarth, and unashamedly playing Devils Advocate, does anyone think that The Enchanted Broccoli Garden should get a bolt put into it's death belay?
>
> While we're on the subject of Gogarth, and unashamedly playing Devils Advocate, does anyone think that The Enchanted Broccoli Garden should get a bolt put into it's death belay?
Having difficulty in reading, have ya.
I mean my english is crap, so I might be wrong... But I tought we were talking about rap-anchors for accessing the ledges and start of the routes, not belays in the actual routes.
In reply to Jamie B.: I'll post a pic of the Castel Helen station when I get home. When were you there? Recently or some years ago? Many of the pitons were flaking with rust. I wasn't worried about trusting them but only because there are so many there. Normal pegs do seem to rust quite quickly on sea cliffs - does anyone know how long those have been there? Am I right in remember there is a stub from a bolt as well that had either broken or been chopped?
In reply to Jamie B.:
Its a different issue, but no. If you are good enough to do the route do it at the grade that its at. There are crappy belays on Zero gully but no one is suggesting bolting that!
> and unashamedly playing Devils Advocate, does anyone think that The Enchanted Broccoli Garden should get a bolt put into it's death belay?
Its a different issue, but no. If you are good enough to do the route do it at the grade that its at. There are crappy belays on Zero gully but no one is suggesting bolting that!
In reply to TobyA:
This is a valid point and the example of Castle Helen access is a good one.
What other sport would put up with a potential life risking situation such as this?
There is no question here in my view.This is the only way down. Popular abseil points such as this must be equipped with adequate bolt stations to enable safe access to the climbing.
This is a valid point and the example of Castle Helen access is a good one.
What other sport would put up with a potential life risking situation such as this?
There is no question here in my view.This is the only way down. Popular abseil points such as this must be equipped with adequate bolt stations to enable safe access to the climbing.
In reply to TobyA:
It always makes me laugh when I read pro-bolters parroting that the advent of sports climbing wasn't the thin end of the wedge, usually in the context of some proposal like this which would have been unthinkable ten or fifteen years ago.
Still, luckily the top of CH is quite accessible, so chopping any idiocy that occurs there won't be too much trouble.
jcm
It always makes me laugh when I read pro-bolters parroting that the advent of sports climbing wasn't the thin end of the wedge, usually in the context of some proposal like this which would have been unthinkable ten or fifteen years ago.
Still, luckily the top of CH is quite accessible, so chopping any idiocy that occurs there won't be too much trouble.
jcm
In reply to TobyA:
>There are crappy belays on Zero gully but no one is suggesting bolting that!
Yet.
jcm
>There are crappy belays on Zero gully but no one is suggesting bolting that!
Yet.
jcm
In reply to TobyA:
Where is said photo? I have some great photos of crazy lower off's mainly in Europe though...
> The abseil station is a collection of about ten different pitons, some stacked, linked together by numerous bits of tat of various different thicknesses, colours and age. I'll post a photo of it later to illustrate.
Where is said photo? I have some great photos of crazy lower off's mainly in Europe though...
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: 'It always makes me laugh when I read pro-bolters parroting that the advent of sports climbing wasn't the thin end of the wedge'
To be strictly fair, and without expresing a view in either direction, I think that the ones who parrot are the anti bolters rather than the pros. If you can show me a more tired cliche than 'putting in a bolt in <insert name of climb here> would be the thin end of the wedge' then I'll tell my manager what I think of him.
To be strictly fair, and without expresing a view in either direction, I think that the ones who parrot are the anti bolters rather than the pros. If you can show me a more tired cliche than 'putting in a bolt in <insert name of climb here> would be the thin end of the wedge' then I'll tell my manager what I think of him.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
That's not an argument John, it's a boring reactionary threat.
So why are various bits insitu rusting iron-mongery tied together with assorted tat of questionable age better than two insitu bolts - there doesn't even really need to be a chain? It's all metal and insitu - so what's the difference? As people just seem to add further pegs and tat to ab point as the older bits become questionable, I'm not even sure if we can make the argument that you are more likely to die abseiling from the pegs, and this somehow keeps us as red-blooded Englishmen of the Imperial type, and not effete foreigners like Johny-Frenchman.
Just out of interest its more that 10 years since I climbed the Old Man of Stoer and exactly the same was discussed then amongst some Scottish climbers.
You better watch out. You might find yourself with a year's probation and being banned from even crossing the Menai straits.
That's not an argument John, it's a boring reactionary threat.
So why are various bits insitu rusting iron-mongery tied together with assorted tat of questionable age better than two insitu bolts - there doesn't even really need to be a chain? It's all metal and insitu - so what's the difference? As people just seem to add further pegs and tat to ab point as the older bits become questionable, I'm not even sure if we can make the argument that you are more likely to die abseiling from the pegs, and this somehow keeps us as red-blooded Englishmen of the Imperial type, and not effete foreigners like Johny-Frenchman.
> usually in the context of some proposal like this which would have been unthinkable ten or fifteen years ago.
Just out of interest its more that 10 years since I climbed the Old Man of Stoer and exactly the same was discussed then amongst some Scottish climbers.
> Still, luckily the top of CH is quite accessible, so chopping any idiocy that occurs there won't be too much trouble.
You better watch out. You might find yourself with a year's probation and being banned from even crossing the Menai straits.
In reply to TobyA:
you can add a couple of wires and small hex to back it all up and make a solid belay, cant see a problem myself.
Other belays at Gogarth depend on some ability to construct them i.e. rigging ropes and spare ropes so this prevents the inexperienced from venturing in to the wilds with out the experience or ability to get out again.
> The North Wales bolting guidelines and American bolt chopper threads prompted the following thoughts. A couple of weeks ago as I discussed here, I did my first trip to Gogarth and climbed Lighthouse Arete. For the seemingly very few people in the UK who haven't climbed the route, it begins with a 55 mtr abseil to the base of the route. The abseil station is a collection of about ten different pitons, some stacked, linked together by numerous bits of tat of various different thicknesses, colours and age. I'll post a photo of it later to illustrate. From memory it probably dominates a bit under a square metre of rock with the pitons in different cracks and then all tied together (although almost certainly not fully equalised) at one point by the various bits of tat.
>
> Some of the pegs looked rusty and flaky and some of the tat faded and old, although the sheer number of parts of the belay probably makes it safe.
>
Shiny bolts could lead the inexperienced in to a world which is just not that easy, at lease this belay acts as a 'granny stopper'.
>
> Some of the pegs looked rusty and flaky and some of the tat faded and old, although the sheer number of parts of the belay probably makes it safe.
>
you can add a couple of wires and small hex to back it all up and make a solid belay, cant see a problem myself.
Other belays at Gogarth depend on some ability to construct them i.e. rigging ropes and spare ropes so this prevents the inexperienced from venturing in to the wilds with out the experience or ability to get out again.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Jul 30: US Bolt Chopper Banned By Judge From Chopping Bolts
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
> (In reply to TobyA)
>
>
> Still, luckily the top of CH is quite accessible, so chopping any idiocy that occurs there won't be too much trouble.
>
>
Jul 30: US Bolt Chopper Banned By Judge From Chopping Bolts
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
In reply to Ian McNeill:
But it doesn't does it? Because its a big lump of pitons and tat that anyone can use. The party that went down before us, went on a 50 mtr rope without putting a knot on the end. Ho hum.
In that case why not just let people make their own belay and not have an insitu one there?
I think if anyone stands at the top of a Gogarth cliff and thinks "oh look abseil bolts. That must mean that abseiling 60 metres on to a wave swept platform, then climbing back up on slightly dodgy rock with no insitu gear is an easy and safe way to spend my saturday..." is likely to be so stupid that they will kill themselves by the inability to tie on to a harness or such. Come on - seriously, people aren't that stupid.
> Shiny bolts could lead the inexperienced in to a world which is just not that easy, at lease this belay acts as a 'granny stopper'.
But it doesn't does it? Because its a big lump of pitons and tat that anyone can use. The party that went down before us, went on a 50 mtr rope without putting a knot on the end. Ho hum.
> you can add a couple of wires and small hex to back it all up and make a solid belay, cant see a problem myself.
In that case why not just let people make their own belay and not have an insitu one there?
> Other belays at Gogarth depend on some ability to construct them i.e. rigging ropes and spare ropes so this prevents the inexperienced from venturing in to the wilds with out the experience or ability to get out again.
I think if anyone stands at the top of a Gogarth cliff and thinks "oh look abseil bolts. That must mean that abseiling 60 metres on to a wave swept platform, then climbing back up on slightly dodgy rock with no insitu gear is an easy and safe way to spend my saturday..." is likely to be so stupid that they will kill themselves by the inability to tie on to a harness or such. Come on - seriously, people aren't that stupid.
In reply to TobyA:
Perhaps they'd done that abseil before and knew their rope was long enough?
> The party that went down before us, went on a 50 mtr rope without putting a knot on the end. Ho hum.
Perhaps they'd done that abseil before and knew their rope was long enough?
In reply to huwtj: It wasn't though, the first guy down-climbed a bit or something they told us, and then some how they rejigged it so for the next two it reached.
In reply to TobyA:
Fair enough, then. Guess that's why the guidebook recommends a 60m rope!
Back on topic, bolted ab points at an adventurous location like Gogarth just doesn't seem right to me.
Fair enough, then. Guess that's why the guidebook recommends a 60m rope!
Back on topic, bolted ab points at an adventurous location like Gogarth just doesn't seem right to me.
In reply to TobyA:
You can build your own belay and strip what's there that's old.
I do agree that tat multiplies faster than ivy, brabbles and red valerian but it's neither a problem nor an ethical issue with a little house keeping.
You can build your own belay and strip what's there that's old.
I do agree that tat multiplies faster than ivy, brabbles and red valerian but it's neither a problem nor an ethical issue with a little house keeping.
In reply to stuartf:
It was horrible wasn't it? I bet its back like that again now though. I reckon a couple of wires (since you can hammer them out more easily than pegs - we removed 9 or so wires in all I think, together with the krabs and the tat) with some stainless steel maillions and a whacking bit of 11mm static would be the best bet, something that looks so indestructible is less likely to have random stuff added to it just in case.
People really ought to clean up in situ points like that - where is the point in adding one perfectly solid piece of tat to a rotting heap when you could remove the rotting heap ad not affect the overall safety of the construction at all? Similarly with adding extra wires, pegs etc.......
AJM
It was horrible wasn't it? I bet its back like that again now though. I reckon a couple of wires (since you can hammer them out more easily than pegs - we removed 9 or so wires in all I think, together with the krabs and the tat) with some stainless steel maillions and a whacking bit of 11mm static would be the best bet, something that looks so indestructible is less likely to have random stuff added to it just in case.
People really ought to clean up in situ points like that - where is the point in adding one perfectly solid piece of tat to a rotting heap when you could remove the rotting heap ad not affect the overall safety of the construction at all? Similarly with adding extra wires, pegs etc.......
AJM
In reply to AJM:
P.S. Hows things Stu? Been a long time since I heard from you. Off to Mingulay tomorrow
P.S. Hows things Stu? Been a long time since I heard from you. Off to Mingulay tomorrow
In reply to TobyA:
If you put a rap point at the top of Castell Helen you are likely to get more inexperieced punters caught out by tides at the base of the crag. A climber who has earned the right to step foot on the hallowed Gogarth quartzite, should question and make up their own mind as to whether to trust fixed gear or not. Whether it be bolts, pegs, fixed wires or faded slings... you should question how long it has been there and what is backing it up? Stick belay bolts in and you risk making the intrinsically dangerous cliffs of Gogarth appear soft and fluffy like Castle Inn Quarry. I'm afraid people are that stupid.
If you put a rap point at the top of Castell Helen you are likely to get more inexperieced punters caught out by tides at the base of the crag. A climber who has earned the right to step foot on the hallowed Gogarth quartzite, should question and make up their own mind as to whether to trust fixed gear or not. Whether it be bolts, pegs, fixed wires or faded slings... you should question how long it has been there and what is backing it up? Stick belay bolts in and you risk making the intrinsically dangerous cliffs of Gogarth appear soft and fluffy like Castle Inn Quarry. I'm afraid people are that stupid.
In reply :
I can't believe folk feel they have to argue against bolting Gogarth by worrying about encouraging the inexperienced!
The point is this, Gogarth and many other sea and mountain cliffs are essentially wild places. Such places are rare in the UK and becoming rarer. If you want to go into them for any reason, whether to climb, birdwatch, fish kayak etc, you should be prepared to take them on their own terms and try to leave them as you found them. You don't go drilling f*cking holes in them to make things more convenient for yourself.
I can't believe folk feel they have to argue against bolting Gogarth by worrying about encouraging the inexperienced!
The point is this, Gogarth and many other sea and mountain cliffs are essentially wild places. Such places are rare in the UK and becoming rarer. If you want to go into them for any reason, whether to climb, birdwatch, fish kayak etc, you should be prepared to take them on their own terms and try to leave them as you found them. You don't go drilling f*cking holes in them to make things more convenient for yourself.
In reply to all: pictures as promised on: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2007/07/superior-ethics-or-littering....
In reply to Adam L:
But we do hammer bits of metal into crags, leave them to rust away and leave large amounts of faded tatty nylon attached to them to make it convenient for ourselves. Yet this is OK.
Can you just run the "why" bit by my again as I didn't quite catch it amongst your righteous indignation.
> You don't go drilling f*cking holes in them to make things more convenient for yourself.
But we do hammer bits of metal into crags, leave them to rust away and leave large amounts of faded tatty nylon attached to them to make it convenient for ourselves. Yet this is OK.
Can you just run the "why" bit by my again as I didn't quite catch it amongst your righteous indignation.
In reply to HeMa:
Why the offensive tone with someone you don't know from Adam? I'm getting sick of this.
Why not enlarge and expand a discussion so that it touches on a partially linked issue? Happens in conversation all the time.
> Having difficulty in reading, have ya.
Why the offensive tone with someone you don't know from Adam? I'm getting sick of this.
Why not enlarge and expand a discussion so that it touches on a partially linked issue? Happens in conversation all the time.
In reply to Jamie B.: I guess because it was never meant to be about bolting climbs, only about some messy and perhaps dodgy ab points. If you conflate the two, people tend not to think much about it and just fire of an ill thought out emotional response.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor: But your argument misses the point that there is already an abseil point there, and people use it do some silly things as I witnessed on my visit. The main thing is that currently a) its a bit of a mess and b) its hard for even very experienced climbers to make much of judgment on its safety as its made up of lots of points, some of which might be fine and other that might be dangerous.
In reply to TobyA:
Well you may, can't say I ever have. I have removed tat though. Most of these pegs are now historical, with a modern rack they aren't required. There are certainly decent wire and hex placements at the castle helen ab.
I cannot understand how you feel that bolts for ab stations are somehow different to bolts for protection. Either you are prepared to take the environment and the rock on its own terms or you aren't.
I don't want to sound condescending, though its hard to avoid given the point I'm about to make, but this was your first route at Gogarth. I really think you should spend alot more time there to absorb and understand the intrinsic adventurous atmosphere of the place before suggesting convenience bolting.
> (In reply to Adam L)
> [...]
>
> But we do hammer bits of metal into crags, leave them to rust away and leave large amounts of faded tatty nylon attached to them to make it convenient for ourselves. Yet this is OK.
> [...]
>
> But we do hammer bits of metal into crags, leave them to rust away and leave large amounts of faded tatty nylon attached to them to make it convenient for ourselves. Yet this is OK.
Well you may, can't say I ever have. I have removed tat though. Most of these pegs are now historical, with a modern rack they aren't required. There are certainly decent wire and hex placements at the castle helen ab.
> Can you just run the "why" bit by my again as I didn't quite catch it amongst your righteous indignation.
I cannot understand how you feel that bolts for ab stations are somehow different to bolts for protection. Either you are prepared to take the environment and the rock on its own terms or you aren't.
I don't want to sound condescending, though its hard to avoid given the point I'm about to make, but this was your first route at Gogarth. I really think you should spend alot more time there to absorb and understand the intrinsic adventurous atmosphere of the place before suggesting convenience bolting.
In reply to John2:
>If you can show me a more tired cliche than 'putting in a bolt in <insert name of climb here> would be the thin end of the wedge' then I'll tell my manager what I think of him.
It's an old cliche, barely heard for years. The new cliche is gloating about how it was wrong.
Whereas in truth it was right, albeit the geometry was debatable. The fact is, as Adam L eloquently put it, that Gogarth's a beautiful place and you don't go drilling f*cking holes in it, and that's really all that needs to be said. Part of the reason why that isn't as obvious as it should be to more and more climbers is that they have the examples of cesspits like Portland to encourage them.
The 1983/4 bolting outburst may not have turned out to be the thin end of the wedge (although people forget how close we came to having Pembroke and Lundy grid-bolted by GG), but for sure it's had a huge and ongoing effect.
jcm
>If you can show me a more tired cliche than 'putting in a bolt in <insert name of climb here> would be the thin end of the wedge' then I'll tell my manager what I think of him.
It's an old cliche, barely heard for years. The new cliche is gloating about how it was wrong.
Whereas in truth it was right, albeit the geometry was debatable. The fact is, as Adam L eloquently put it, that Gogarth's a beautiful place and you don't go drilling f*cking holes in it, and that's really all that needs to be said. Part of the reason why that isn't as obvious as it should be to more and more climbers is that they have the examples of cesspits like Portland to encourage them.
The 1983/4 bolting outburst may not have turned out to be the thin end of the wedge (although people forget how close we came to having Pembroke and Lundy grid-bolted by GG), but for sure it's had a huge and ongoing effect.
jcm
In reply to TobyA:
>Come on - seriously, people aren't that stupid.
Read the mountain rescue reports!
jcm
>Come on - seriously, people aren't that stupid.
Read the mountain rescue reports!
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
It's had a huge and ongoing effect in many different ways. Many positive.
But you are right John, there is a creeping trend..........to say " Oh fruck it, just put a bolt in."
Wonder where it will end?
> (In reply to John2)
>
> >> The 1983/4 bolting outburst may not have turned out to be the thin end of the wedge (although people forget how close we came to having Pembroke and Lundy grid-bolted by GG), but for sure it's had a huge and ongoing effect.
>
> >> The 1983/4 bolting outburst may not have turned out to be the thin end of the wedge (although people forget how close we came to having Pembroke and Lundy grid-bolted by GG), but for sure it's had a huge and ongoing effect.
It's had a huge and ongoing effect in many different ways. Many positive.
But you are right John, there is a creeping trend..........to say " Oh fruck it, just put a bolt in."
Wonder where it will end?
In reply to Adam L:
You've never left gear behind when abbing off a route? Anywhere? How did you get down in Patagonia?
The first doesn't effect the climbing, the second does. Rather straightforward I would have thought.
Take out all the fixed gear then, I'm completely cool with that. And what about abseil stakes hammered into the ground? Do they not constitute not taking the rock on its own terms?
You can turn it the other way and say perhaps you've spent so long there you can no longer see the wood for the trees - what really is "intrinsically adventurous" about an 8 or 9 piton abseil point tied together with hunks of rope?
If you go back to my original post you'll see it's a question not a statement. There is a certain kneejerk anti-bolt reaction amongst many British climbers (I have it myself), which to a often stops logical arguments. There maybe good reasons why abseil stations shouldn't be bolted but saying it is against the adventurous ethic of the area is hypocritical when we all happily accept things like this: http://bp0.blogger.com/_3bhSo6922y4/Rq9mS56kxaI/AAAAAAAAAJg/w43jnwEy10g/s16...
> Well you may, can't say I ever have.
You've never left gear behind when abbing off a route? Anywhere? How did you get down in Patagonia?
> I cannot understand how you feel that bolts for ab stations are somehow different to bolts for protection.
The first doesn't effect the climbing, the second does. Rather straightforward I would have thought.
> Either you are prepared to take the environment and the rock on its own terms or you aren't.
Take out all the fixed gear then, I'm completely cool with that. And what about abseil stakes hammered into the ground? Do they not constitute not taking the rock on its own terms?
> I don't want to sound condescending, though its hard to avoid given the point I'm about to make, but this was your first route at Gogarth. I really think you should spend alot more time there to absorb and understand the intrinsic adventurous atmosphere of the place before suggesting convenience bolting.
You can turn it the other way and say perhaps you've spent so long there you can no longer see the wood for the trees - what really is "intrinsically adventurous" about an 8 or 9 piton abseil point tied together with hunks of rope?
If you go back to my original post you'll see it's a question not a statement. There is a certain kneejerk anti-bolt reaction amongst many British climbers (I have it myself), which to a often stops logical arguments. There maybe good reasons why abseil stations shouldn't be bolted but saying it is against the adventurous ethic of the area is hypocritical when we all happily accept things like this: http://bp0.blogger.com/_3bhSo6922y4/Rq9mS56kxaI/AAAAAAAAAJg/w43jnwEy10g/s16...
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Agreed.
But in your books its fine to hammer in 8 lumps of metal in to it and then leave them with various bits of nylon flapping about from them.
You still haven't explained to us why this is?
> The fact is, as Adam L eloquently put it, that Gogarth's a beautiful place
Agreed.
> and you don't go drilling f*cking holes in it,
But in your books its fine to hammer in 8 lumps of metal in to it and then leave them with various bits of nylon flapping about from them.
You still haven't explained to us why this is?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
>Wonder where it will end?
Bolting Archangel, is still my guess.
jcm
>Wonder where it will end?
Bolting Archangel, is still my guess.
jcm
In reply to TobyA:
pure novices do not in my experience go to Gogarth and abseil to the beach.
they visit the mountain and say that they have been climbing at Gogarth !
As I have said already if its looks difficult and dangerous stay away till your ready - the concept of Granny stopper.
Where are there other fixed abseil stations like at CH at Gogarth that invite climbers to abseil into the unknown?
There are others e.g. at the top of the Strand .. save the walk off if not busy, bolts above PH cave the painted seat, some illusive hidden ones at Rhoscolyn ?.
As for the photos on the blog, some of that tat could have been cut away and replaced - I bet it is before the weeks out.
Above all not abseil stations at Gogarth please what next route names painted below ?
pure novices do not in my experience go to Gogarth and abseil to the beach.
they visit the mountain and say that they have been climbing at Gogarth !
As I have said already if its looks difficult and dangerous stay away till your ready - the concept of Granny stopper.
Where are there other fixed abseil stations like at CH at Gogarth that invite climbers to abseil into the unknown?
There are others e.g. at the top of the Strand .. save the walk off if not busy, bolts above PH cave the painted seat, some illusive hidden ones at Rhoscolyn ?.
As for the photos on the blog, some of that tat could have been cut away and replaced - I bet it is before the weeks out.
Above all not abseil stations at Gogarth please what next route names painted below ?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
It's more likely that I'll be born again and raptured then that happening I suspect.
> Bolting Archangel, is still my guess.
It's more likely that I'll be born again and raptured then that happening I suspect.
In reply to TobyA:
Whoever said the present situation was fine? I don't like it either and I'd never place a peg on a sea-cliff. But it's better than a bolt because it at least respects the fact that the rock permits a peg.
You know that, surely Toby? Why do we have to go on and on having these arguments?
And Adam's right, bolting abseil stations and belays is no different from bolting routes. 'Accessing' sea cliffs, as you put it, is part of the climbing.
jcm
Whoever said the present situation was fine? I don't like it either and I'd never place a peg on a sea-cliff. But it's better than a bolt because it at least respects the fact that the rock permits a peg.
You know that, surely Toby? Why do we have to go on and on having these arguments?
And Adam's right, bolting abseil stations and belays is no different from bolting routes. 'Accessing' sea cliffs, as you put it, is part of the climbing.
jcm
In reply to TobyA:
Wonder how likely the Lundy pioneers thought it was in 1974 that Gibson would think Black Crag would make a nice sport-climbing venue ten years later?
Still, let's hope you're right.
jcm
Wonder how likely the Lundy pioneers thought it was in 1974 that Gibson would think Black Crag would make a nice sport-climbing venue ten years later?
Still, let's hope you're right.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I just think it is very sloppy logic mixed with pinch of hypocrisy and a sprinkling self satisfaction about our superior ethics that leads to British cliffs ending up with lumps of tat on them like in the photo. It's simply bollocks to talk about wilderness or the environment then to leave bits of decaying climbing equipment behind.
I fully agree that the other logical position to take, as opposed to neat and safe bolted stations, is no fixed gear at all. That is also seems perfectly reasonable to me. But I expect there would be protest if that happened and the pegs and tat would return soon enough.
I fully agree that the other logical position to take, as opposed to neat and safe bolted stations, is no fixed gear at all. That is also seems perfectly reasonable to me. But I expect there would be protest if that happened and the pegs and tat would return soon enough.
In reply to TobyA: Interesting that the first of your photos clearly shows the remains of at least two and probably three bolts, Toby.
In reply to TobyA:
Tradition Toby, and adventure.
Pegs are considered natural as they are hammered into existing cracks. Bolts "desecrate virgin rock," "penetrate" even, or worse, "rape."
As Wilson used to say, and perhaps still does, "we have to bend a knee to the cliff."
There's really no rhyme or reason, or logic, just emotion.
If everything is bolted, or bolts are placed in an adventure area like Gogarth, you take the "soul" out of the place, you take the fear away, and you are left with is a series of gymnastic moves that anyone can perform (well almost).
Mick
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> [...]
> [...]
> But in your books its fine to hammer in 8 lumps of metal in to it and then leave them with various bits of nylon flapping about from them.
>
> You still haven't explained to us why this is?
>
> You still haven't explained to us why this is?
Tradition Toby, and adventure.
Pegs are considered natural as they are hammered into existing cracks. Bolts "desecrate virgin rock," "penetrate" even, or worse, "rape."
As Wilson used to say, and perhaps still does, "we have to bend a knee to the cliff."
There's really no rhyme or reason, or logic, just emotion.
If everything is bolted, or bolts are placed in an adventure area like Gogarth, you take the "soul" out of the place, you take the fear away, and you are left with is a series of gymnastic moves that anyone can perform (well almost).
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Also placing pegs requires craftsmanship and skill, first you have to actually find a suitable crack, then weigh up the size of the crack and select the correct piton, them hammering it home with power and finesse, right up to the hilt.
It's authentic.
Placing a bolt......bzzzzzzzzzzzz, bang, bang......
A violent indiscriminate act. Requires little skill. The work of a vandal not a craftsman or master artisan.
No romance.
Mick
Also placing pegs requires craftsmanship and skill, first you have to actually find a suitable crack, then weigh up the size of the crack and select the correct piton, them hammering it home with power and finesse, right up to the hilt.
It's authentic.
Placing a bolt......bzzzzzzzzzzzz, bang, bang......
A violent indiscriminate act. Requires little skill. The work of a vandal not a craftsman or master artisan.
No romance.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: You are taking the piss aren't you?
In reply to TobyA: Probably not. There are some who believe the skill of creating serious visual pollution is worth preserving!
PS That ought to get a few people going.
PS That ought to get a few people going.
In reply to John2:
Yeah, I wonder if anyone know the history of them? Perhaps they were old and bad metal and just rusted away. Or were they place and then chopped? If they were well placed (they look rather close together to me) you could see the difference in visual impact to what there is now.
Again, before everyone gets fired up, that is necessarily a reason to change the ethic, but is an issue that those who support the status quo peg and tat approach should address.
Who has done the Old Man of Stoer recently? Has it's top been cleaned up?
> Interesting that the first of your photos clearly shows the remains of at least two and probably three bolts, Toby.
Yeah, I wonder if anyone know the history of them? Perhaps they were old and bad metal and just rusted away. Or were they place and then chopped? If they were well placed (they look rather close together to me) you could see the difference in visual impact to what there is now.
Again, before everyone gets fired up, that is necessarily a reason to change the ethic, but is an issue that those who support the status quo peg and tat approach should address.
Who has done the Old Man of Stoer recently? Has it's top been cleaned up?
In reply to TobyA:
Not at all. Wat I rit is da fund-a-mentals of the argument.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) You are taking the piss aren't you?
Not at all. Wat I rit is da fund-a-mentals of the argument.
In reply to TobyA:
I doubt it. I reckon 70% of the pegs you clip on routes aren't needed thesedays. No-one has replaced the peg on Barbarossa, for example. Standards have improved and it is now viewed as a classic E7 to aspire to, rather than an E6 with a dodgy, tied off peg. We should be trying to reduce the amount of fixed gear littering the crags, not adding to it.
> I fully agree that the other logical position to take, as opposed to neat and safe bolted stations, is no fixed gear at all. That is also seems perfectly reasonable to me. But I expect there would be protest if that happened and the pegs and tat would return soon enough.
I doubt it. I reckon 70% of the pegs you clip on routes aren't needed thesedays. No-one has replaced the peg on Barbarossa, for example. Standards have improved and it is now viewed as a classic E7 to aspire to, rather than an E6 with a dodgy, tied off peg. We should be trying to reduce the amount of fixed gear littering the crags, not adding to it.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Again bringing up routes is a bit of a red herring, as this isn't about routes where there should definitely be no bolts and probably should be no pegs either, so I support your point.
But that's not always the case though is it? Two bolts is a lot less fixed gear/litter than 9 pitons and associated tat, yet many people prefer the latter to the former for reasons not connected to littering.
Again bringing up routes is a bit of a red herring, as this isn't about routes where there should definitely be no bolts and probably should be no pegs either, so I support your point.
> We should be trying to reduce the amount of fixed gear littering the crags, not adding to it.
But that's not always the case though is it? Two bolts is a lot less fixed gear/litter than 9 pitons and associated tat, yet many people prefer the latter to the former for reasons not connected to littering.
In reply to huwtj: Eh? I only had 45m ropes in the old days and they reached. Must be something to do with inflation. Isn't part of the fun and challenge in sea cliff climbing having to make decisions about belays, recovery of ropes etc? Let's not make it like a walk in the park. We need a degree of commitment and risk. If that isn't for everyone then good, they can stick with the Embankment and Portland where they belong.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Agreed. In my younger and perhaps sillier days, I took repeated falls onto 0.5 wallnut whilst trying to do The Sting (V,6) on Creag an Sogach. Simon Richardson had just written an excellent article in High I think saying "do we really need pegs in the Scottish Winter" and we were fired up with a no-peg zeal. Fortunately at the time it wasn't well known how easy it is to break those tiny nuts and I had quite a lot of rope out! And even after the falls I still couldn't do the move so we abbed off. It wasn't even the supposed crux, but we later found out that the ramp in question had had good ice on it during the first ascent, not some thin hoar over it like when we tried.
> I reckon 70% of the pegs you clip on routes aren't needed thesedays.
Agreed. In my younger and perhaps sillier days, I took repeated falls onto 0.5 wallnut whilst trying to do The Sting (V,6) on Creag an Sogach. Simon Richardson had just written an excellent article in High I think saying "do we really need pegs in the Scottish Winter" and we were fired up with a no-peg zeal. Fortunately at the time it wasn't well known how easy it is to break those tiny nuts and I had quite a lot of rope out! And even after the falls I still couldn't do the move so we abbed off. It wasn't even the supposed crux, but we later found out that the ramp in question had had good ice on it during the first ascent, not some thin hoar over it like when we tried.
In reply to TobyA:
I agree with previous point made, you can't separate the abseiling from the climbing in such a clinical way. It's all part of the days activities on the cliffs, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. In the case you mentioned perhaps all the pegs should be removed and trad gear placed temporarily for each abseil, if it can be safely.
I also agree with JCM in that pegs are far more in fitting with the local ethics in that the cracks are already there and are being utilized and not being drilled out as for bolts.
I agree with previous point made, you can't separate the abseiling from the climbing in such a clinical way. It's all part of the days activities on the cliffs, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. In the case you mentioned perhaps all the pegs should be removed and trad gear placed temporarily for each abseil, if it can be safely.
I also agree with JCM in that pegs are far more in fitting with the local ethics in that the cracks are already there and are being utilized and not being drilled out as for bolts.
In reply to CurlyStevo: At the top of the main pitch on The Old Man of Hoy there is an enormous thread. This is important because it is the key belay for the diagonal abseil descent.
Well when we did it there was no doubt that it looked unsightly, it had about 20 pieces of tat in various stages of rotting. It felt quite safe to clip several of them and we did not add our own. A week or so after our ascent I heard that they had all been chopped and the situ ropes that guided you down the diagonal abseil had also been chopped.
Now I'm not into spoon feeding but many people went there without taking a rope to leave as a guide rope for the ab, or indeed big enough 'tat' slings for the thread because they were aware of what the staus quo was, but it wasn't anymore.
The point I think I'm making is if there is a status quo, like the ab down Lighthouse Arete, then if anybody removes this it should be done sensitively and with thought for others. If the pegs on LA had been systematically removed the placements could be shot. So yes I'll go along with a chain, but somebody has to monitor it or it will just end up being backed up and we will be back to stage one.
Well when we did it there was no doubt that it looked unsightly, it had about 20 pieces of tat in various stages of rotting. It felt quite safe to clip several of them and we did not add our own. A week or so after our ascent I heard that they had all been chopped and the situ ropes that guided you down the diagonal abseil had also been chopped.
Now I'm not into spoon feeding but many people went there without taking a rope to leave as a guide rope for the ab, or indeed big enough 'tat' slings for the thread because they were aware of what the staus quo was, but it wasn't anymore.
The point I think I'm making is if there is a status quo, like the ab down Lighthouse Arete, then if anybody removes this it should be done sensitively and with thought for others. If the pegs on LA had been systematically removed the placements could be shot. So yes I'll go along with a chain, but somebody has to monitor it or it will just end up being backed up and we will be back to stage one.
In reply to TobyA: this thread shows why nothing will ever change...
In reply to TobyA: Whilst there is nothing wrong with asking questions like this, and I certainly don't prescribe to the reactionary nonsense spouted by John Cox (i.e. that even raising this issue is evidence of the supposed rot of the great British trad ethic), I do think that bolts are both unnecessary and out of step with the 'feel' of Gogarth.
Tricky equalised belays are part of the Gogarth experience. If a climber doesn't have the knowledge or skills to make the CH belay safe then they will soon come unstuck elsewhere on the crag. Knackered old pegs are a fact of life on this cliff. It's not ideal, and I don't like pegs really, but that's just the way it is.
Tricky equalised belays are part of the Gogarth experience. If a climber doesn't have the knowledge or skills to make the CH belay safe then they will soon come unstuck elsewhere on the crag. Knackered old pegs are a fact of life on this cliff. It's not ideal, and I don't like pegs really, but that's just the way it is.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Your continued attempts to paint the climbing world as being populated by divided and opposing groups is tiresome. Real life simply isn't that black and white. I am 'pro-bolt' in certain situations, and 'anti-bolt' in others - almost every climber I know is of this mind set.
As for:
"some proposal like this which would have been unthinkable ten or fifteen years ago."
More nonsense - when exactly was this golden era when no-one dared discuss placing bolts? It's always been on the agenda, always will be and we can discuss it just fine without you pitching in with alarmist rubbish.
As for:
"some proposal like this which would have been unthinkable ten or fifteen years ago."
More nonsense - when exactly was this golden era when no-one dared discuss placing bolts? It's always been on the agenda, always will be and we can discuss it just fine without you pitching in with alarmist rubbish.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
A little too black and white for my liking there Mick. A well placed/positioned bolt requires a good deal of thought and experience. The numerous badly placed ones that can be found upon our crags bear witness to this.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Also placing pegs requires craftsmanship and skill, first you have to actually find a suitable crack, then weigh up the size of the crack and select the correct piton, them hammering it home with power and finesse, right up to the hilt.
>
> It's authentic.
>
> Placing a bolt......bzzzzzzzzzzzz, bang, bang......
>
> A violent indiscriminate act. Requires little skill. The work of a vandal not a craftsman or master artisan.
>
> No romance.
>
>
> Mick
>
> Also placing pegs requires craftsmanship and skill, first you have to actually find a suitable crack, then weigh up the size of the crack and select the correct piton, them hammering it home with power and finesse, right up to the hilt.
>
> It's authentic.
>
> Placing a bolt......bzzzzzzzzzzzz, bang, bang......
>
> A violent indiscriminate act. Requires little skill. The work of a vandal not a craftsman or master artisan.
>
> No romance.
>
>
> Mick
A little too black and white for my liking there Mick. A well placed/positioned bolt requires a good deal of thought and experience. The numerous badly placed ones that can be found upon our crags bear witness to this.
In reply to Simon Panton:
That's what I'm trying to poke at though. "Why?" is the obvious question to ask. I think inertia is the main reason, and some sloppy reasoning.
Farmers have always tended to leave bits of broken agricultural machinery rusting in the corners of fields all round the country, that's just the way it is. It's still litter though.
I'm not certain that bolts are right either, but I also wish others would accept the hypocrisy of their position. I won't hold my breath though.
> Knackered old pegs are a fact of life on this cliff. It's not ideal, and I don't like pegs really, but that's just the way it is.
That's what I'm trying to poke at though. "Why?" is the obvious question to ask. I think inertia is the main reason, and some sloppy reasoning.
Farmers have always tended to leave bits of broken agricultural machinery rusting in the corners of fields all round the country, that's just the way it is. It's still litter though.
I'm not certain that bolts are right either, but I also wish others would accept the hypocrisy of their position. I won't hold my breath though.
In reply to TobyA:
This is one occasion where taking only a photograph and leaving nothing behind applies. It would have taken less time to clear the mess up you photographed than to make endless posts on here.
This is one occasion where taking only a photograph and leaving nothing behind applies. It would have taken less time to clear the mess up you photographed than to make endless posts on here.
In reply to TobyA: Like I said, I'm not criticising you for asking the question, but there is logic in the anti bolt stance here. During a typical day on Gogarth you will have to assess, back up and construct a number of complicated belays in far more strung out situations than the comfortable ledge at the top of CH.
If you're going to strip the pegs out on the basis that they are ugly (and I agree they are not pretty), then where do you stop? The cliff is littered with old ironmongery left by generations of climbers - do we strip everything?
If you're going to strip the pegs out on the basis that they are ugly (and I agree they are not pretty), then where do you stop? The cliff is littered with old ironmongery left by generations of climbers - do we strip everything?
In reply to Simon Panton:
Or read it, by the look of it.
Don't be silly. I never said there was a golden age when people didn't discuss placing bolts (although clearly there was - you think they used to talk about it in the Wasdale Head?). I never even said there was one at Gogarth - how could I have done when The Cad is there? But I don't think you used to hear semi-serious proposals to install bolted abseil stations there 15 years ago. If you think I'm wrong, feel free to prove it.
jcm
> (In reply to TobyA) and I certainly don't prescribe to the reactionary nonsense spouted by John Cox (i.e. that even raising this issue is evidence of the supposed rot of the great British trad ethic
Or read it, by the look of it.
Don't be silly. I never said there was a golden age when people didn't discuss placing bolts (although clearly there was - you think they used to talk about it in the Wasdale Head?). I never even said there was one at Gogarth - how could I have done when The Cad is there? But I don't think you used to hear semi-serious proposals to install bolted abseil stations there 15 years ago. If you think I'm wrong, feel free to prove it.
jcm
In reply to TobyA:
I don't think there's any one right position on this, some places the pegs are fine and should stay, some they're a mess and a neat bolt/chain setup makes sense. The only real argument agains is the emotive 'no bolts at x y z, we're British!' which is weak at best.
The argument that they shouldn't be placed because they won't be maintained/checked is nonsense. If that were the case ther should be no UK sport climbing.
The argument they'll spread to routes is debatable, personally I can't see the odd bolted ab station inspiring anyone to bolt routes and if they did I'm sure they'd be chopped pronto on the popular traditional cliffs.
As to the argument that manky pegs deter novices and only allow access to those with the requisite skills... Really? sounds like 'elitist' tosh to me. Who goes over the edge at Gogarth without a quick flick through the guide first? And how hard is it to thread your rope through the tat and ab in, any numpty could do it, no skill needed!
Where do you stop? ...Bolted belays? Well I'll no doubt get flamed for this but yes, if there's nothing else reasonable and a belay is esential then I have no problem with a belay bolt or two even in 'no bolt' areas. That said, 'manufacturing' a bolt belay in the middle of a big runout to break it up is not on, this would have to be policed as our ethics always have been, by our peers.
Anyway, that's my 2p worth.
jk
I don't think there's any one right position on this, some places the pegs are fine and should stay, some they're a mess and a neat bolt/chain setup makes sense. The only real argument agains is the emotive 'no bolts at x y z, we're British!' which is weak at best.
The argument that they shouldn't be placed because they won't be maintained/checked is nonsense. If that were the case ther should be no UK sport climbing.
The argument they'll spread to routes is debatable, personally I can't see the odd bolted ab station inspiring anyone to bolt routes and if they did I'm sure they'd be chopped pronto on the popular traditional cliffs.
As to the argument that manky pegs deter novices and only allow access to those with the requisite skills... Really? sounds like 'elitist' tosh to me. Who goes over the edge at Gogarth without a quick flick through the guide first? And how hard is it to thread your rope through the tat and ab in, any numpty could do it, no skill needed!
Where do you stop? ...Bolted belays? Well I'll no doubt get flamed for this but yes, if there's nothing else reasonable and a belay is esential then I have no problem with a belay bolt or two even in 'no bolt' areas. That said, 'manufacturing' a bolt belay in the middle of a big runout to break it up is not on, this would have to be policed as our ethics always have been, by our peers.
Anyway, that's my 2p worth.
jk
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Toby's thread is an online discussion - 15 years ago this would have been talked about in a pub, on a long car journey etc - back then no record was kept of these things, but that doesn't mean it wasn't discussed. In the 25 years that I've been climbing I've been party to an endless number of discussions about the validity/desirability of bolts, whether they be for belays or for protection. And yes I do recall the belay station at the top of Castell Helen coming up in conversation on more than a few occasions. Each time, the argument settled in similar manner to the way in which it has here (i.e. there is no real need for the bolts).
Unfortunately I wasn't carrying a dictaphone with me so I can't provide you a with a transcribe of the conversation.
Unfortunately I wasn't carrying a dictaphone with me so I can't provide you a with a transcribe of the conversation.
In reply to Simon Panton: Have you any idea what the history of the bolt stubs clearly visible in Toby's photo is?
In reply to TobyA:
"But we do hammer bits of metal into crags, leav"
At the risk of bringing up a rotten old chestnut I believe newer pegs in the Castell Helen ab station were placed by guides, from Plas Y B even (I read it on here whatever the link was). And I'm beginning to think in situ pegs aren't OK in any case.
"But we do hammer bits of metal into crags, leav"
At the risk of bringing up a rotten old chestnut I believe newer pegs in the Castell Helen ab station were placed by guides, from Plas Y B even (I read it on here whatever the link was). And I'm beginning to think in situ pegs aren't OK in any case.
In reply to TobyA:
As someone pointed out, you can place gear to abb off at Castell H.
So 'Why?' is the obvious question to ask about the entire thread.
But then I've abbed off major installations at Gimmer, Dumbie and even off Froggat Pinnacle. Oh, and the laughable death anchor at Diabaig that Jamie mentioned. Though that's so shoddy I nearly walked (what an epitaph that would make).
As someone pointed out, you can place gear to abb off at Castell H.
So 'Why?' is the obvious question to ask about the entire thread.
But then I've abbed off major installations at Gimmer, Dumbie and even off Froggat Pinnacle. Oh, and the laughable death anchor at Diabaig that Jamie mentioned. Though that's so shoddy I nearly walked (what an epitaph that would make).
In reply to TobyA:
Abbed off it last summer. Didn't really see too much cause for concern but backed it up with a nut anyway.
Abbed off it last summer. Didn't really see too much cause for concern but backed it up with a nut anyway.
In reply to Irton Pike:
At CH I think it's there and fixed partly because it's a popular bit of cliff used by many parties during the day, some will leave ropes as it's a popular introductory area for the nervous, all will want to strip their gear out when they're done... What if someone has left a rope on their gear? 'Team placed' gear doesn't work where there are a large number of teams and a (relatively) limited number of placements.
Those pegs and ropes are an eyesore but a necesarry one. Personally I'd much rather see a neat stainless chain, not because the pegs are 'unsafe' but because they're unsightly and not the simplest neatest solution. The use of pegs for ab points is just totally illogical and adds nothing to the 'charm' or 'quirkiness' of british climbing.
jk
> As someone pointed out, you can place gear to abb off at Castell H.
> So 'Why?' is the obvious question to ask about the entire thread.
> So 'Why?' is the obvious question to ask about the entire thread.
At CH I think it's there and fixed partly because it's a popular bit of cliff used by many parties during the day, some will leave ropes as it's a popular introductory area for the nervous, all will want to strip their gear out when they're done... What if someone has left a rope on their gear? 'Team placed' gear doesn't work where there are a large number of teams and a (relatively) limited number of placements.
Those pegs and ropes are an eyesore but a necesarry one. Personally I'd much rather see a neat stainless chain, not because the pegs are 'unsafe' but because they're unsightly and not the simplest neatest solution. The use of pegs for ab points is just totally illogical and adds nothing to the 'charm' or 'quirkiness' of british climbing.
jk
In reply to TobyA: Just to say that last Monday we stripped about a dozen pieces of unnecessary tat from two of the ab stations on the Old Man of Hoy. If the weather had been better we would have tidied them up more.
I am at a loss to understand why people keep adding more and more stuff to them. I'd suggest people try and break a single piece of old 5mm let alone 8mm or even 11mm rope. If there are 3 strands of tat already in place I wouldn't dream of backing them up and if I did, I'd strip the oldest first before adding mine.
If climbers weren't paranoid (exacerbated by laziness) then we wouldn't have the unsightly messes we do.
I am at a loss to understand why people keep adding more and more stuff to them. I'd suggest people try and break a single piece of old 5mm let alone 8mm or even 11mm rope. If there are 3 strands of tat already in place I wouldn't dream of backing them up and if I did, I'd strip the oldest first before adding mine.
If climbers weren't paranoid (exacerbated by laziness) then we wouldn't have the unsightly messes we do.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Well quite, you strip the crap, send your fattest person down first weighting what's left to test it with a hefty `new gear' back up, and follow afterwards trying to feel as light as possible retrieving your kit. No bolts required.
Well quite, you strip the crap, send your fattest person down first weighting what's left to test it with a hefty `new gear' back up, and follow afterwards trying to feel as light as possible retrieving your kit. No bolts required.
In reply to Mark Stevenson: You may be interested to know that when we were developing Wadi Rum in Jordan in the 80s, we used to ab of pegs, trees, whatever we could find, leaving cord or usually tape behind. When it started to get more popular the amount of tat started to accumulate. We took some back to Troll (remember Troll?) and tested it - it was 2 years old and had lost 60% of its strength due to UV (we removed any abraded bits before testing and re-sewed the loop). Basically, it fell apart. Next year we removed a rucksack full of tat from the main descent route on Jebel Rum (Hammad's Route) and with French guide Wilf Colonna replaced it with glue-ins and chains. It looks cleaner and it's safer and it hasn't affected Rum's predominantly trad ethics.
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