UKC

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

WTF is wrong with these people? What on earth is their mandate for encouraging - worse, paying - for people to litter the countryside in this way?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

The bolts offered are to replace bolts already littering the countryside John.

So you can sleep easy tonight.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Apparently they're also sponsoring Battersea Dogs' Home, encouraging walkers and climbers to adopt savage mutts to take on the hills and to crags...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: trad can be just as "detrimental". im not getting into a debate about this as its been done to death on here but please consider both sides properly before posting.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Not so many available for sea cliffs this time - might be a bit of a bun fight.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
How about bolting some of the steep stuff at New Mills Tor? Would give it a little more traffic....
James

In reply to james oswald:

Wrong forum.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: their mandate is that they've been asked to get involved like this by an active core of BMC members.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

From the BMC website: "Remember, this is not wholesale BMC sponsored grid-bolting, but replacement of existing fixed equipment which has become dangerous."

Seems like an awful lot of bolts being given out if they are just for "like-for-like" replacements.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

perhaps they could also promote not top roping directly from the anchors and getting people to use theeir own gear. Ive come across some pretty worn out staples in some parts of portland.


To JC- Sport climbing and trad climbing both have their place in this country, lets not go over old ground. We have a pretty good balance at the moment.

In reply to SI A:

A few of these worn-out belays have already been replaced with BMC chain/ring lower-offs (e.g. Reptile Smile, some easy routes at The Cuttings). There's more to be done though. I'm OK if people email me via this site telling me about which belays are looking dodgy, as I'm sure there are few that I don't know about. Myself, Neal Heanes, Andy Long and Rob Kennard have all replaced a few so far, and will carry on doing this...

However, I still see lots of climbers repeatedly top-roping directly through the lower-offs, which is heart-breaking when you understand how much work is involved to replace them!!!

In reply to steve taylor:

Why don't they put loose rings into the staples like they do in France to reduce the wear? Would save a lot of work in the long run.


Chris

In reply to james oswald: Nice Trollin'

In reply to Richard Hall:

Seems like an awful lot of bolts being given out if they are just for "like-for-like" replacements

It's not Richard, in fact it's just the tip of the iceberg. There are literally thousands of old, rotting bolts placed in the 80's which now need replacing. This small amount of bolts is really there to get the ball rolling, and to get people who go sport climb thinking about sticking a tenner in the bolt fund collection tin.

We can argue the toss about the merits or not of sport climbing till we're blue in the face, (personally I'm not that into it) but the simple fact is that this type of campaign is what our members have asked us for. Being a democratic organisation, we let our members decide what they want, and then we try and help them achieve it. I'm afraid JCM's post shows his ignorance about who the BMC are and how we operate.

perhaps they could also promote not top roping directly from the anchors

In reply to SI A:

That's a mighty good point. There's an article on the BMC website about doing this: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=2008

In N.Wales last year we helped local climbers fit most of the lower offs at UPT with maillons and rings to extend their lifespan, but if people used their own gear when working or top roping routes it would save a lot of wear and tear for sure.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Getting the bolts is the easy bit, finding people to put them in is the hard part.

In reply to Serpico: I am quite happy to do it in the Peak, Mid Wales, Ban Y Gor, Clwyd, South Wales etc. Give me the bolts and in they will go on a like for like basis.

In reply to Serpico:


Getting easier.

Once the skill of new routers, who learnt on the job, and sometimes messed it up (placed some bad ones myself) now many areas have several people who are experts at placing bolts, usually re-equipping.

In addition Dan M at the BMC runs bolting workshops

Like this one in South Wales: http://thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=2623

There have been many more.

So, not really a problem anymore.

Mick

In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:
...but the simple fact is that this type of campaign is what our members have asked us for. Being a democratic organisation, we let our members decide what they want, and then we try and help them achieve it. I'm afraid JCM's post shows his ignorance about who the BMC are and how we operate.


Its not at all democratic for non-BMC members who are against bolting is it? And don't just say "well join the BMC then" cos thats just a cop out.

In reply to simes303:

no its not.

In reply to Gary Gibson:

Like on Lundy, Pembroke, etc, eh, Gary?

jcm

In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:

>I'm afraid JCM's post shows his ignorance about who the BMC are and how we operate

Bollocks. If you would be using my subscription to place bolts with, then that's all I need to know.

If you place bolts, of course bolters will join you. That's not democracy, it's an abuse of your position. If you can't see that, you're even thicker than I take you for.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Do you think bolts have a place in British climbing at all?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Sorry John but I haven't placed a bolt on any of these venues for well over 18 years. I have openly stated on numerous occasions that I fully support that these are now bolt free venues and that previous isues forced us to a position to agree that these are bolt free areas. I think your comments are out of date.

In reply to Tyler:

Shouldn't really be a question as bolts are already part of British climbing, and have been for a long time.

In reply to james oswald:

If you use the principles expoused by the excellent Dorset Bolt Agreement, then I for one would not give my permission to retro bolt my routes at NMT, they are perfectly well protected by trad gear! <<angry splutter>>

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Not such a good analogy Mick, the thing is when I (and most others I would imagine) do not pick up a piece of litter from the trail and then carefully replace it with another.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: I am pretty late coming to the bolting argument but it seems, to me at least, that the bolted routes are higher end and therefore out of reach of the majority of BMC members. Is this a correct generalisation? I am not too happy that ther BMC become a funding organisation for a small group of our elite climbers. I get the impression that this is the case from Summit sometimes which is full of articles and news on E8's and E9's and much less on the lower grades the majority of BMC members can attain, (see my prervious assumption).
Would it be a fair analogy to ask the BMC to set up a 'trad fund' for the equipment I need to enjoy my climbing, for example I could do with expanding my range of 'friends' and they are really expensive.

In reply to redsulike:

Used to be. Not anymore. Lots of bolt routes from Cheddar to Dorset to Yorkshire in the F5 to F6b range.

So no, the BMC aren't funding the 'elite' when providing bolts to local area bolt funds to help replace old bolts.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Where's Ken Wilson when you need him ?

In reply to simes303: What exactly do you mean when you say you are against bolting Simon. Do you mean that there shouldn't be any in the rock? Do you think they should all be taken out. Because if you do, perhaps you should put your money where your mouth is and go and take them all out.

The BMC is answerable to its membership. A climber is fully independent, which has always been the beauty of climbing. You can do whatever you want, dude. Gary Gibson never asked for any mandate when he wanted to put bolts in. If you believe in what you are posting on a public forum, why not go and take them out?

Sniping on a website isn't really a statement. Go and make one.

Sorry about all that. I just groaned when I read these responses. Speaking as a climber, and not a BMC person in any way, I think this is one of the best things the BMC has done in recent years.

In reply to Niall Grimes: bolting is an important part of british climbing..

In reply to redsulike:

It's not really true that Summit is "full of articles and news on E8's and E9's", since we don't report "normal" climbing news - only BMC news - and the recent James Pearson article was related to a new advertising campaign.
Always tricky getting a balance though, so let me know what you'd like to see in there.

And of course, letters always welcome - to summit@thebmc.co.uk.

In reply to Alex Messenger, BMC: onsight climbing?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Hasn't that been well covered in a recent DVD...?

In reply to Alex Messenger, BMC: more ground up....

In reply to redsulike:

There are plenty of bolted routes in the lower grades, particularly in the Peak and Portland. For example Gary Gibson received a consignment of BMC bolts last year and put in a sterling effort to re-equip Blackwell Halt and SmallDale quarries. The routes he worked on went from 6a to 7a - hardly elite stuff ! And of course the BMC saved Horseshoe for the nation - the epicentre of low-grade sport in the UK.

People seem to forget that climbers and hill walkers in the UK are a pretty diverse bunch and the BMC tries to keep everyone happy - "A Broad Church" is the usual cliche. I don't go ice-climbing, but that doesn't mean I object to the BMC running safety seminars on it. I'm never likely to climb on Southern Sandstone, but I don't object to the work it does down there.

You'll always get the knee-jerk reactionaries like JCM lurking on the internet, pouring scorn on anyone who is less narrow-minded than they are, but the BMC is a democratic body, so get involved. Go along to an area meeting, have your say.....

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I don't think many people are that interested in the exact differences. Let me know any other ideas though - what do "the yoof" want to see in there...? Drop me an email at summit@thebmc.co.uk.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Not known you be nasty before, John, (although maybe you didn't intend to be). Am amazed by Gary's restraint in replying. A (private?) apology would surely be fitting.

Mick

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



dear mr johncoxmysteriously, your post displays several versions of hysteria and ignorance. it is also personally abusive to someone you may never have met. i always feel that posters who make sweeping and wholly inaccurate statements e.g."using my subscription to place bolts with" are not capable of understanding and dealing with a conflicting point of view.

being abusive (on an internet forum) is simply weak.

so you don't like bolts. fine. you're not required to like everything the BMC does. however, you should at least have the grace to accept that a majority of active and involved members (he hinted) have asked for this.

if you want to get into a debate about "democracy", this is not the thread for that. you will find few (if any) truly democratic systems anywhere in the world. if you want your voice to be heard, get involved, rather than sniping on some internet forum.

the british climbing scene has changed, and everyone from the BMC to Gary Gibson has recognized and accepted that. feel free to be the odd one out.

i won't be replying to further posts from you because that will be tedious and unproductive. do something positive and constructive instead of replying with "the usual".

xxx

In reply to simes303:


Thats a fair point, but if you really cared you'd go to your area meeting and argue your position. It might open your eyes a bit. Thats what happened to me.

I climbed for over 15 years, never had anything to do with the BMC. I was involved in ripping out the bolt belay at Sergeant Crag Slabs - and went to the next area meeting to justify these actions. The fact that I wasn't a BMC member was neither here nor there, nobody was bothered.

What did matter was that the issue was more complex than I'd realised, and as the meeting progressed it dawned on me that I'd been enjoying climbing all this time and never thought about all the voluntary work done in the background. The negotiations with landowners, nature groups, etc. So when a job came up, I took it, my way of putting something back.

So, if you are really are against bolts at all costs, go to your area meeting and argue against them. Or, go around ripping them out - you'll feel like a hero, leave a mess, cheese people off, maybe even endanger access. Nobodys stopping you though...

In reply to redsulike:

I can't be bothered to reply to the screeching reactionary histrionics of John Cox, but this point here needs answering.

If the BMC was offering to buy quickdraw racks for 'sport climbers' you might have a point. Clearly they are not. Instead they are helping to kickstart vital maintainence work at a range of British crags (and that includes a lot of low and mid grade clip ups) and I for one applaud the support they are giving the many hard working individuals who carry out re-equipping work.

If you want to change the direction of the BMC the answer is quite simple: get involved. Go to your local meetings and make your case, talk to other climbers, find out what other people think.

In reply to Niall Grimes:


Hiya Grimer. I didn't say I was against bolting. Im not too bothered either way. I was just arguing against the "its ok 'cos its democratic" statement because it annoyed me.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: I'm probably going over old ground here so ignore this if you like. My gut feeling is against bolts because if you can't climb it without them then perhaps it shouldn'y be climbed. Ah but! The same arguments could be, and were, and are used when climbing trad routes with sticky shoes and a range of nuts and cams etc. Yes I know. But it feels like step too far. Is there any mileage in the argument that it is the indoor climbing world that wants to play out but need the security of bolts. This might be just me again as I tend to think of indoor climbing as playing at it, practise for the winter months, and was amazed to find some people do all their climbing indoors and say they 'climb'. Prehaps the BMC should show itself to be even handed and represent the membership more equably by setting up a 'bolt chopping fund' alongside my 'trad fund'.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

So they won't be used to continue the retro-bolting of trad crags? That's good to know.

In reply to redsulike:
no. there is no mileage in your argument that it is the indoor climbing world wanting to play outside needing bolts because bolts were being used for protection outside well before indoor leading walls.

In reply to Toreador:

Taking up Torreador`s point- is the BMC unequivocal about this- that it won`t advocate the use of these bolts for retro-bolting ?

It might help quell some of the moral outrage round and abouts....

In reply to Toreador:

These bolts are only available just for the replacement of old bolts on a like for like basis. Always have been.
Not for new routing, not for retro bolting
Applications for the bolts must be approved at local area meetings, so if climbers would like their local sport climbs to remain neglected, they have that choice.

In reply to lummox:
i think we just need to ignore non-active climbers like jcm (from his own profile). I think the BMC are helping people like Gary who do a sterling job to help out low to middle grade climbers by keeping fixed equipment in good order. Most of the venues Gary deals with would not be climbed upon at all without the bolts that help stop them falling down! He gets no reward apart from the pleasure of helping others and very little thanks.

If JCM got off his arse and actually went to some of these venues and talked to the climbers there he would realise that he is talking rubbish

In reply to lummox:

Yes


You think ? We're talking JCM here. Makes the Teleban look broad-minded...

In reply to Tyler:

No. They are litter, nothing more.

jcm

In reply to Mick Ward:


You've lost me slightly, Mick, but it strikes me that if anyone's going to apologise a public apology for some of GG's ludicrous actions in the past would be rather more fitting. I may have missed one, of course. For that matter I may have missed him going to Lundy, removing his bolts and repairing the damage, and suggesting that his provocative route names there be taken out of the new guide and the routes considered unclimbed until they've been done properly. Have I?

jcm

In reply to craig d:

>If JCM got off his arse and actually went to some of these venues and talked to the climbers there he would realise that he is talking rubbish

Which venues?

jcm

In reply to Serpico: Getting the bolts is the easy bit, finding people to put them in is the hard part.

I think you are underestimating the quality of the Yorkshire application re how and where the bolts would be deployed. Maybe it didnt seem so to you at the front end but I was really impressed by the number of people who shared the load at Malham.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


I presume that goes for all in-situ gear including pegs and threads?

And those hand-rails you get along pathways to stop old ladies falling into the sea.

And roads.

And everything else I suppose. We're drowning in the detritus of a few thousand years of human endeavour. How depressing.

I know what'll cheer me up ... let's go clip some bolts at the weekend!

In reply to simes303: It's not simply okay because it's democratic, Simon, but also a response to motivated groups of individuals who have formed groups to rebolt rotting fixed gear, or who do it individually. Not for any glory, as no one will ever know, but who have their beliefs, thought about it, and then acted quietly. The BMC is seeking to assist these groups and individuals.

I suppose I might have been reacting more against John Cox's bullshit, but imagine you had freely given your time, money and effort to do this, because you feel that someone is going to get badly hurt, sooner or later, then read down the reactions at the top of this thread?

I hope at least you think of the effect they have. These people (not the BMC, but the self-motivated volunteers in the areas) are acting on their beliefs. That's why I suggested acting on yours before being too critical. The internet has a great power to be negative, but it's good to have a think before you flex your muscles.

As Donald Sutherland said, "Always with the negative waves. Why don't you say something beautiful for a change?"

Pax

In reply to redsulike: We've not set up a bolt chopping fund, but I have been doing trails on ways of removing manky old bolts and leaving no mess. Looking pretty good so far, but it does take time and effort. This does mean that in the future we may be able to remove bolts that have been placed without consensus, and not leave horrible smashed bolts behind. I'm fully expecting a massive queue of people who are willing to forgo climbing, posting on the net, etc to spend days hanging off ropes getting covered in sh*te to help with this. Any volunteers?

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Now I've actually bothered to go from this thread to the UKC news to the BMC page to the BMC application form, I can see that this is made perfectly clear there

In reply to Alex Messenger, BMC: I am hardly representative of the indoor, bolt clipping, urban yoof.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

Hippy!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Chee dale, Horseshoe and loads of other quarries in the peak. All the other sports climbing crags in Wales, Portland Etc Etc. I am starting to realise just what a pedantic old fool you really are.

In reply to Niall Grimes:


Not so. Some people are negative, not the internet.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Guns don't wrap killers, hippies do!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: yet you climb (have climbed) sport according to your profile?

and what about the likes of:

Geordie War Cry
Colossus
Ride The Wild Surf
I've Been a Bad Bad Boy
Statement of Youth

not to mention amazing stuff further east and north: Metalcore, Raindogs, Obsession, Supercool...

possibly amongst the best climbing experiences the UK has to offer.

do you not think you sound a bit skewed?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Why doesn't the BMC take the obvious step and pay someone to put in some bolts. As has already been said further up the thread, time and expertise is what's required in the Peak, not bolts.

In reply to Tom Briggs:
Simple - this way the BMC can't be liable should someone injure themseleves. An individual placing bolts is less of a litigation magnet

In reply to Tom Briggs:

Nice as that would be it doesnt seem equitable that BMC should stump up to employ someone because we havent got our act together. Jonboy has the ironmongery and the power tool for anybody that has the time and inclination. http://www.thepeakboltfund.blogspot.com/

As he says a BMC bolting workshop would be a useful initiative for those who are willing but lack any experience though the guidance on their website is very clear. http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=2411

In reply to Simon Lee:

Another workshop will be arranged in the Peak next year. It will be well publicised before the event. It seemed a good idea to do it when the weather is a bit better, as we are then more likely to be able to finish the workshop off by actually re-equipping some routes rather than just talking about it! As with most things, handbooks are useful, but you only really learn when you go out and try things for real.

Any other areas need a workshop, let me know and we'll get it sorted. Let me re-iterate, if we are going to have bolts they might as well be decent ones. The campaign and workshops revolve around re-equiping existing bolted routes.

In reply to craig d:

Oh I see. You must be kidding. Why on earth would I want go and climb at those places?

jcm

In reply to GrahamD:
Why?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

So why do you want to impose your climbing ethics on people who do enjoy climbing at those venues?

Alan

In reply to martin k:

>being abusive (on an internet forum) is simply weak.

Would I be right in assuming that this point also applies to your colleague who called me 'ignorant'?

jcm

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

For the same reason I would oppose people dropping litter at them.

jcm

In reply to Simon Panton not registered:

It "needs answering" largely because it's unanswerable. Sport climbing costs money and part of that money is paying for bolts. Trad climbing costs money, but none of that money is spent on bolts. There's no more justification for the BMC paying for sports climbers' equipment than there would be for them doling out free gear to young climbers who want to get into trad but can't afford to buy their own, in fact rather less. Calling the one 'vital maintenance work' at the crags doesn't alter the fact that it's the BMC sponsoring one particular kind of climbing.

jcm

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

"take only photos, leave only footprints".

It's a sad day when the BMC has forgotten this motto.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

unlike purchasing non bolt venues like Bwlch Y Moch, Trowbarrow, Longridge?

Kevin (enjoys climbing at Gogarth AND Malham)

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
And rock polish, decent path erosion, nut scars, crag deforrestation

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You mean like footpath erosion? And I suppose all the driving you did between London and the crag was impact free as well?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


I assume you are against all guidebook production.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Hi

Just like to say thank you so much for entertaining me, I think these things will always elicit an emotional response from both sides. Sadly I think we had this 'debate' a few years ago now at local area meetings, where the votes were for the establishment of Bolt Funds, and the BMC facilitating best practice for placing bolts. I am very sorry that you either missed that debate Johncoxmysteriously, or the memo saying that you lost didn't get through.

Everyone involved in the process likes trad climbing, but they also enjoy clipping bolts from time to time, and they like those bolts to be safe

What was really entertaining was the BMC heavyweights of Alex the annilator Messenger, Naill the Grimer reaper, Martin the machine kocisis and Dan the man middleton laying into the debate. It was also good to see those that are actively involved like Steve Taylor, (was Garry there as well?) Simon Panton, and Now I'd like to add my support, although in haven't held a drill in anger for a year now. But after John's strong words I feel the need to drill something.

After reading Gaz Parry's efforts down south, I feel that North Wales should offer a response for best re-equipped F8a(+) although might just be f7b+ by getting to the Diamond on the Little Ormes. At least Gaz wouldn't have to drive to swanage to crank it out!

PS does anyone have a 200m ab rope? My 100m one won't reach the ground on little ormes!

In reply to Serpico:

Yes, yes, yes. Smart point. Life isn't impact free. Wonderful. Did you have anything to say?

jcm

In reply to mark reeves:

Well said Mark, its has been a good thread to lurk on!

... and good video, nice to see the guys clipping bolts in Wales.

Sam Orange

In reply to kevin stephens:

Totally unlike. In the first place, that's access work, and in the second place, it produces an asset for generations. Sponsoring bolting is no different from sponsoring gear: it's subsidising for some climbers' short-term expenditure and not others.

I'm assuming of course that this money hasn't all been collected from clippers, largely because they aren't actually prepared to pay for what they use. Would that be right?

In fact, if the BMC wanted to do something useful sponsoring gear-placing and general how-not-to-get-killed lessons would be a damned sight more useful than teaching all and sundry how to place bolts.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

they do a lot of access work too. that is good for trad crags too.

shocker!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

No John, your post suggested that the BMC only sponsers one aspect of climbing, ie sport. I was merely showing that the BMC sponsers trad as well in soending money securinv access to trad crags

And as for suggesting that clippers dont pay for whar they use, most bolts in the UK were paid for by clippers without BMC support.

as to "how not to get killed" lessons, have you not seen the very effective poster campaign which addresses many of the dangers which have led to accidents by trad and sport climbers

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Have just seen your post. John, I give up.

Mick

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

They have in situ chess boards as well you know, which are great for old geezers who no longer climb

In reply to craig d:

Seriously though, my original point was if you went to some of these very popular venues and talked to the climbers that use them, you might realise that these people appreciate what the BMC and people like Gary do. Of course the other benefit to people like you,(grumpy, anti-social, obtuse, stubborn and down right pig headed) is that it keeps the trad crags free for your own enjoyment.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

You want to be careful Franco, next you will be saying it is okay to grade and top rope

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Anyway John. Just like to congratulate you.

The orginal news item and this thread has been read by many thousands.

Most didn't comment. Some I'm sure felt the same as you, others indifferent, and others support the BMC funding re-equipping.

You did comment.

Then the assembled pundits focussed right on you and your opinions, including several BMC fellows.

Got hot around the collar ... and created quite an issue. They will be talking about this over the weekend - you will be called various names. Some will blame it on those UKC'ers! Who are just individual climbers.

This issue ... will soon be forgotten.

Best,

Mick

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Horseshoe Quarry - The Dark Half Buttress. The lower off's on this part of the crag are in dire need of changing/replacing.

Anyone else been there, think so too?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: john, what i don't get, and maybe you could explain it, is that you are rabidly against bolters, sport climbing and these BMC bolts, but your profile says you go sport climbing.

can you explain the contradiction without saying "i only go sport climbing abroad"?

In reply to Niall Grimes:

I didnt mean to annoy anyone. Sorry. Si. xx

In reply to simes303: Ah, no, it was a fun Friday morning bluster, good for the digestion xx

In reply to Aiden Wright:

I've spent about four days sport climbing. How do you expect me to slag it off properly if I haven't tried it?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: funny! what would be your solution to the dangerous state of so many bolts in britain?

In reply to craig d:

or indeed to use a rope at all.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
have you ever climbed hybrid trad?
have you ever climbed a trad route with a bolted belay?
have you ever clipped a peg?
have you ever abseiled from in-situ gear?

In reply to ksjs: Don't let him drag you in to his 'debatory' thrusts!
I nearly got drawn in yesterday and, glad to say, resisted - I felt suddenly clean.