UKC

My first weekend climbing in the peak district ended by being moaned at by a couple of blokes for top-roping a popular route and it has really knocked my confidence. I know this is not a great thing to do but why?

I love climbing and thought it'd be good to give leading a try. A few hundred quid lighter and I led a pretty shite, easy route for the first time with a friend who also had never done this before. After sh**ing myself on a couple more routes I thought it'd be nice to climb a good one on a top rope and got a real bollocking for it.

Where's the understanding and advise from experienced climbers? Does anyone else feel that newcomers to the sport can feel a little unwelcome at times?

I've been put off going back.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

That sounds a bit out of order, which route was it out of interest?

In reply to shingsowa:

I think it was called Christmas something. Would need to check book.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Just be happy in the knowledge that they've probably got higher blood pressure than you and that you've probably got more of a life.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:
Easy answer. Take a deep breath and tell those elitist tw*ts to f right off.
I can't understand why anyone would have a go at a a small group setting up a top rope. A massive group of rowdy people in muddy trainers I could understand.

In reply to AnnaSpanna: Christmas Curry perhaps? A classic route. Did you try to explain to them it was your first attempt at leading?

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Were they waiting to do the climb themselves? Was it a climb that is already really popular with leaders and could do without the added traffic of TR's also? Polished routes can be a bit of a nightmare!


I understand that leading is a very scary experience but a lot of people believe that most of the joy of a route (*classics included) comes from leading it for the first time or doing it in a 'traditional' manner.

Is there not anyone you know who could have lead the climb for you, and you could have 2nd it?


I wouldn't be put off going back but possibly because you are fairly new to climbing outdoors(I assume) you aren't fully aware of what affects your actions are having on other people!?

Good Luck with the leading, get back out there and hopefully have a better experience next time round!

In reply to AnnaSpanna:
There is a general consensus that it isn't sporting to top-rope a popular route, especially at weekends or summer evenings etc, as there are other, less popular routes to learn on. There are also issues to do with rope wear and damage to softer rocks, like sandstone etc.

But as a beginner you may not know this, and it sounds like the guys you met overreacted in a most unhelpful manner.

Climbing is like any other sport, it has it's share of cocks, don't be put off! Most of us are quite nice. And helpful. Some of us are even stunning to look at....

In reply to creakyknees:
Isn't that at Tremadog?

In reply to AnnaSpanna:
Don't be put off. OK you may have had a nasty experience but as other posters have indicated most other climbers would be helpful if they knew that you were new to leading outdoors.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:
They were tw*ts. Try to ignore this, and let it go. There are no "rules" regarding top roping, just a load of self satisfied elitist fools, who I promise you have top roped for themselves at one time or another. TR gives beginners like yourselves the confidence to explore moves and gain experience that later you can apply when leading- its all valuable stuff.
TR tends to get looked down upon becuase of a few people who have locked up a "classic" route (although again, there is nothing to say that even "classic" routes should not be TR's and enjoyed by ALL) with a TR and put up a large group of people. Then again, even in that situation, it is possible for anyone wanting to do such a route to politely ask if they can go up for themselves inbetween group members- or simply to choose another route. No one has precedence.
Try not to let these fools put you off, although I can appreciate that they did manage to p*ss all over your day.

Sxx

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Was this it, if so ignore the tossers. In fact tell them you are learning and had led something but want to see what something a grade harder is like before leading it. Your shite easy route could be hard for someone who had done nothing indoors to lead. Anyway, there are very few shite routes around, don't put yourself down. Well done on your first lead, some people never get to lead well.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/search.html?text=christmas+crack&nstar...

In reply to AnnaSpanna:
Presumably the route was Christmas Crack at Stanage - worth bearing in mind that it is one of the 10 most popular climbs in the country (according to UKC). As such someone hogging it for an extended period, or climbing it in a manner liable to cause undue erosion, is not likely to be popular amongst other climbers.

Having said that there is no reason to assume that just because you are top-roping it means you are going to take any longer or flail around any more than a leader/second combo - in fact you may be quicker or neater. Unfortunately many climbers do make such assumption and adopt a holier-than-thou attitude towards beginners. Don't worry, they probably also harrass learner drivers

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

You should just tell them to feck off in future.
Anyone going to Stanage and complaining about people top roping routes needs to get some imagination and try getting out to one of the hundreds of other less busy crags in the country.

In reply to Glen:


I think this comment is only fair if the 'climbers' in question made this comment on a saturday in summer.
Stanage has a lot of good routes on it and if this 'incident' occured during a weekday in winter, I can kind of understand their frustration of Christmas Crack being TR... although this still doesn't justify their being rude.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Cheers guys - great releif to know that I haven't totally faux parred!! any recommendations of easy beginner grounds where I won't piss anyone off?!

As a point though, I don't think it's fair to expect others to step aside just because you may be faster, top roping or not.

In reply to margie:


Unless it was on December 25th!

Chris

In reply to margie:

Mind you, it has to be said that, just like top-roping, being rude isn't illegal.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

they sound like a couple of kbobbers. I could understand their attitude if you were a big group top ropeing a classic for hours on end and leaving your ropes up. but just a single pair toproping a route isn't going to take much longer and will probably cause less damage/errosion then someome placing gear.

My advise to you is go to less popular crags or develop thicker skin.

In reply to AnnaSpanna: Windgather is a great crag to learn on, easy access and loads of good easy routes and it tends to be used by groups so the will amost certainly be other people there top roping.

I have before asked a top roping group if I could lead the route they were on (this was at windgather) and they were happy to flick the ropes out the way and have a break. The same happened to me when I put a tope rop on something for a couple of newbies, the guys asked if I wouldn't mind if they led the route so I just pulled the ropes up out the way. It was aquick lead and they used my anchors so it only took a few minutes.

Don't be put off, climbing outdoors is a fantastic thing, persevere.....and try Windgather

In reply to AnnaSpanna: Go to Yarncliffe quarry and top rope away ! A bit daft to have chosen such a route to top rope. And, as mentioned above, try Windgather.

In reply to Glen:

Or, conversely, those wishing to toprope should try getting out ............ etc

In reply to doz generale & op: adviCe, its adviCe with a C, not an S

sorry, pedant rage just came over me.

to the OP, I would tell them where to stick their size 6 cams. Theres no excuse for rudeness, unless they let you know they wanted to have a go themselves and you took forever.

In reply to margie: wouldn't be put off going back but possibly because you are fairly new to climbing outdoors(I assume) you aren't fully aware of what affects your actions are having on other people!?

I dont understand this comment about her actions having an effect on others. surely top roping unless it is all day on the same route only has the same effect on people (maybe not the route) as someone leading.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

I know exactly how you feel - Climbing like many sports unfortunately has it's fair share of people who forget what it's like to be a begginer (which i still class myself as) and seem to get a kick out of looking down on such people.
Luckily, there's also lots of people who don't forget why we do it (personal enjoyment, companionship, etc) and want to help as much as they can. The majority I have found to be the latter and they just about make up for the sad minority.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:
It depends how you set up the top rope.
If you both went to the top of the crag, set up the anchor, then lobbed the rope off just as the other pair were gearing up to lead, then they might have had a point.
But if one of you stayed at the bottom to warn others off, then they probably didn't

In reply to AnnaSpanna: another vote for Windgather - everyone seems to top rope without any issues there, though its also a great place to learn to lead.

In reply to AnnaSpanna: Windgather will defo get a visit.

The top rope was set up and we were about to go for it when they just walked in front and started climbing - shocking really.

In reply to shaun stephens:
surely top roping unless it is all day on the same route only has the same effect on people (maybe not the route) as someone leading.

Trying to be diplomaic, seeing as I wasn't there to witness this ...

BUT my general experience of anyone TR has resulted in a long wait, as IN GENERAL I would assume those more experienced in leading are a bit quicker at the 'ole rope work... This I am aware is a sweeping generalisation!

Also, TR at Stanage no matter what the size of the group does not go down well with many other climbers .. many of the popular routes are already polished here and although if they had been leading the route a similar amount of wear would have been applied, it would have been climbed properly

My comment was refering to what has been established here that OP should in future try quieter, less popular crags for TR/learning to lead.

Castlenaze near Windgather is another quieter crag that TR doesn't seem to be an issue on, it is also a good place to learn to lead with lots of 'easier' routes on.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Ridiculous unfriendly bas****s! Everybody has to start somewhere. You did nothing wrong.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Looking at responses on here things seem to have changed.
I always thought it was normal to allow the party climbing faster or in a better style to pass you.

In reply to i.munro:

To pass you YES, but NOT to give a total boll**ing to the more inexperienced climbers!!!

In reply to i.munro:

You don't reckon that the fact she's a girl has anything to do with this change of policy?

In reply to JPG:


NO! I don't think there is a change of policy, just a little misunderstanding between groups of climbers!
I have always been under the same impression and I'm a girl!!!

I don't remember reading anywhere that they were 'boll*ked' at!?

In reply to AnnaSpanna:
After sh**ing myself on a couple more routes I thought it'd be nice to climb a good one on a top rope and got a real bollocking for it.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Well quoted!!

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Yup, that's just rude. I'd throw things.

I have, at times, had a go at the typical instructor-and-fifteen-peddling kids-in-trainers when they have been tying up a classic route for, in some cases, several hours, and I'll admit that on several occasions I've possibly muttered under my breath when waiting to lead a route and the number of people top-roping it appears to get ever longer and longer...

However I have NEVER and would never just walk in front of someone with an established top-rope and start leading.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

I apologise I stand corrected

In reply to i.munro:

Since when has it been normal to attempt to pass someone on a single pitch route ?

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Unfortunately climbing seems to attract the 'holier than thou' element and also the twunts who forget what it was like to be a begInner. They also tend to be deleuded and believe that they own the crags.

YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG.
YOU HAVE A PERFECT RIGHT TO TOP ROPE WHEREVER YOU WANT
(TAKING CARE OF COURSE ON SOFT ROCK SUCH AS SANDSTONE NOT TO RUB YOUR ROPE OVER THE EDGE).

Ask yourself this; what harm did you do?
To which the answer is none.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

You need to visit the right side of the peak. Climb in londgendale and you will have whole crags to your self. Nobody will trouble you and you will have the best days climbing you could ever want. For some reason some climbers all seem to want to go the the same place and make up thier own rules and be rude to each other. Climbing is about personal challenge and enjoyment, without messing it up for those who follow. So-what if a route gets more polished and becomes that bit more difficult. Tope rope all you like, lead all you like, solo what you like. By tope roping the route you were probably ovr and done quicker than if you led it. Longdendale valley has 30 crags within 5 miles of Crowden. More than you could shake a stick at, with an excellent mix of routes. Get the old BMC kinder guide book.

Rant over.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Yeah some folk can be pretty unwelcoming at times, but you have just as much right to be there as they do, so don't be shy, do whatever you feel comfortable with, regardless of who turns up and gives you a hard time.
With regards to the crappin it on the lead, its natural, everyone does the first few times, I still do, just count yourself lucky your not winter climbing hahaa, definitly more of a head game.
keep up the good work.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Sorry you had a crap experience leading. My first leads (hmm, all my leads actually!)were always something I enjoyed more after I'd got them done. Regularly pap my pants - it's actually why I climb I think! Managing that fear gives such a sense of achievement.

There are plenty of quality routes around at low-ish grades. Don't beat yourself up for doing mods / diffs / vdiffs or whatever - it's your own personal challenge, and not for comparison with the achievements of others.

Like nearly everyone else has said, boo and hiss to those silly panto baddies! Just enjoy - if you come across dicks like that again feel free to be rude back. They have no more right to be there than you regardless of the grade / style / time you do.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


It's been normal as long as I can remember, when they haven't left the ground yet.
Simple courtesy really.

In reply to i.munro:

I don't think Chris meant 'when they haven't left the ground yet'.

In reply to i.munro:

Rubbish, somewhere like Stanage, there are hundreds of routes at whatever grade you want. If you want to climb something particular, and there is someone on it (or about to climb it), no matter what method they are using. You have no greater right to be on there then anyone else. You have two choices either, enter into a conversation with them, or wait in line.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


& yet he seemed to assume that I did.
I've always allowed faster more competent teams to pass at a belay.
Foe a single pitch route that's the ground.

In reply to AnnaSpanna: At least you didn`t call it "the Peaks" !

In reply to i.munro:
So if you're gearing up at the bottom of a route and another party appears it's normal, simple courtesy even, to let them go first ????

Or only if they point out how much more competent than you they are ??

I can understand some people would be upset if the route looked free, but when you got to the bottom you were told that someone was about to drop a rope down it. But even so I wouldn't assert my moral superiority to be allowed to lead it first

In reply to AnnaSpanna:
If you're going to TR don't pick popular classics like you did. Stanage Crow Chin is going to be much quieter and less controversial as is Windgather.
James

In reply to Chris the Tall:


If I'm gearing up to tr a route & they're gearing up to lead it then they are clearly more competent (they don't need to tell me) & I would offer to let them go first.

My experience is that most people would politely refuse (very few want an audience while they climb) but I'd make the offer.

It's not clear from the OP how far each group had got & who was ready & who wasn't which is why I'm suprised by a lot of the posts.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Birchen Edge is good for first leads, you should have a look there next time.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=94

It tends to be quite busy but very good for beginners.

In reply to i.munro:

That's an daft scenario... realistically it would never get that far. If you managed to arrive at the bottom of a route at exactly the same time as someone else, you'd sort it out at bag dumping time.

In reply to Papillon:

Clearly in this case it wasn't sorted out at any point

"The top rope was set up and we were about to go for it when they just walked in front and started climbing - shocking really"

In reply to i.munro: I meant if both were going for the lead, hypothetically.

I've got to say this sounds rude, just from your re-quote alone. If I was that keen to do xmas crack (and not the 100s of climbs either side), I'd just say I'd like to go on it, once the two had top roped, which would be no slower than a lead and second anyway.

In reply to Papillon:


So I say
>
>

& you are talking about 2 teams leading.
Ok so I should have typed toprope in full rather than tr

In reply to AnnaSpanna: Troll. 9/10 - very subtle. I like it...

In reply to AnnaSpanna: Am I the only one who thinks this is a troll? "It was called Christmas something....."

In reply to i.munro:


How can you tell that the arrogant f*ckers pushing in in front of you are more experienced? Just because they lead, whilst you are top-roping?

Some teams take a long time leading and seconding a simple route, and I'm only a HS climber and I've seen people faffing around (and I've faffed around) on Severes. Mind you, if someone had come and politely asked me if they could solo or lead Route 2 (Burbage North, I kept slipping off the polish at the bottom) then I'd have been only to happy for them to go ahead. If they'd asked rudely, they'd have told to go forth and multiply, and then my natural politeness and sarcasm would have taken over...

I think there is a general antagonism towards top-ropers, and it stems from groups that hog routes, and refuse to allow others - even if politely asked - to allow others to lead the routes. And then people apply that scenario to every top-roper, and that is not fair, or accurate.

My last experience of a group top-roping a route was at Lawrencefield, where I wanted to lead Three Tree Climb. We went and did something else, and whilst we were doing that the leader came over and told us they'd be finished soon, there was a cam that was stuck - they were practising gear placements whilst on a top-rope - and as soon as they got it out, they'd be off. As it happens, they gave up, and we removed it, and gave it back to them.

Amiable, no conflict climbing, it's great. Plus Three Tree Climb is a lovely route, too.

In reply to wayno265: For me it was the "shocking really".

In reply to Dominion:

Bollocks to that - it's entirely fair and accurate!

Come on, seriously now - enough of the political correctness!

We all know that top-ropers waste everyone's time faffing about, whining about how hard it is, polishing perfectly decent crags like they're Mr Sheen, dole-scrounging, union-joining, bonus-earning, teenage parents without whom, let's face it, the world would in general be better off.

In reply to i.munro:


No. Simple courtesy would be quietly, patiently waiting until those before you are done or simply going to do another one of the 100s of nearby routes for half an hour.

OP: Unfortunately there are assholes in all walks of life. Sometimes you just have to rise above it and leave them to their opinions. Don'tlet it put you off.

jk

In reply to wayno265:


The thought crossed my mind but on the other hand it's a believable scenario and I figured the poster is deserved the benefit of the doubt.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

The secret is not to give a f*ck what "people", and I use the term loosely, say about your climbing style. It isn't illegal, so do it.

And I disagree, I think top-roping is a great thing to do.

I haven't had anyone criticise my climbing style in real life, but I'm sure it will happen, dry tooling routes, top ropes, even aid climbing, I'll do it all. And when they do complain, will I change my style? Of course not. I don't care if my style doesn't comply with some idiots ideas of "ethics". I try to avoid excess damage to the rock, plants, I don't leave huge chalk marks, and some other things.

In reply to jkarran:

Top ropers don't deserve the benefit of any doubt!

Except, of course, she's not a top-roper because she's trolling in which case she MIGHT deserve the benefit of the doubt. Except that the benefit we're talking about here is the benefit of us not assuming she's a troll. But if she's not a troll, that means she's a top-roper and, therefore, doesn't deserve the benefit of any doubt.

*resists temptation to cut'n'paste the above paragraph a few dozen times*

In reply to fishy1:


Did I miss when TR became a 'form' of climbing?

There is a slight difference to TR a route before leading it to TR a well protected classic which other people wish to enjoy 'properly'.

In reply to wayno265:

that was my reaction too...

very good one too, difficult to find a new angle in the world of TR trolling, but OPs crafted a wee cracker...

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Best Climbing Experience
First time leading at burbage

In reply to margie:


Pretty obviously, you did. Could it be that you are just too snobbish, or is your head stuck where the sun doesn't shine?


||-)

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

I presume it's a troll.

Assuming it's not - you shouldn't have been TR Christmas Crack. You shouldn't have got a 'bollocking' for it, but someone should have explained to you that you should be learning on less popular routes.

Simple as that really.

In reply to ClimberEd:

If you are a beginner, how do you know Christmas Crack is a popular route?

Presumably when she turned up, there wasn't a queue for it...

In reply to ClimberEd:

Really?

Ah yes, that's right isn't it; us people who can lead these routes do actually own them, I forgot that. Our routes, our rules. Just like when a 5 year old gets given a football for Christmas, they get to decide who plays football with them in the playground, and they also get to decide on the rules. Why should we act with any more maturity and reasoning than a five year old does?

In reply to AnnaSpanna:
If the more popular routes at stanage were bolted, it would be quicker to climb them and hence fewer queues. Where's my drill...?

In reply to Dominion:

Someone should have quietly explained it to her rather than bollock her.....

In reply to Byron Buck:

It's known as etiquette...... ...

In reply to ClimberEd: Anyone else find it slightly depressing that people seem to tr routes when they`re starting out ?

Where`s Cox when you need him to rant about people being softarses ?

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

It's genuine! I had to google what a troll/trolling was!!

Thanks to all for the advice.

In reply to ClimberEd:

Assuming this did actually happen and isn't a troll (which it is)...

I could understand your point if there was a large group of them taking up the route for a long time, but by the sounds of it there were just two people climbing. Dropping a top rope down a route and then having two people climb it would have taken no more (in fact, probably less) time than someone leading it and another seconding.

So, all it boils down to is their personal preference on the style in which they wished to climb it, which is entirely their decision, not something that anyone else has anything to do with.

Byron

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

I hope you gave them the finger and a mouthful of verbal dioreah(sp?)

do these people think they own the crag? ask them if they were ethically pure when they first started out

Forget these tossers and have a good time :0)

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

its sometimes best to just laugh at them!

maybe question the size of their penis

suggest they arent getting enough

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Just tell them you are head pointing the route. Top climbers claim they're headpointing when really they are just top roping - so why not as a beginner

Head pointing refers to having previously top roped a route that has little or no protection (as a beginner you could argue that a HS looks to have little protection) so the knowledge that you are able to do the moves in a risk-free environment allows you to determine that you can do the climb without the assurance of the rope from above.

In reply to shingsowa:
unhelpful manner.


climbig has more than its fair share of cocks, dont let it put you off, the very nature of the sport means you can spend a lot of time far far away from any other climbers if you want

In reply to JPG:

lol. AND some of them even have more than one Jaguar

I've thought of a way of sorting this whole issue out once and for all:
We select fifty of the hardest, gnarliest most fervent supporters from each side of the argument.Those two sides being the sanctimonious, up-their-own-backsides,trad.leading-only (unless of course it's too hard for them, in which case headpointing is suddenly ok)supporters versus sensible, considerate rock-respecting top-ropers (not the classic, three star, top-rope hogging University Climbing Club types).
A suitable area is selected at the top of the crag at Stanage and my choice would be the above the Black Hawk area, for it's cauldron like ampitheatre at it's base.
Then the action starts:
Each team member is given a number from 1-50 and corresponding numbers step forward to battle it out near the edge of the crag, the object being to sufficiently overcome your opponent to finally throw them to their doom over the edge. This would be met with a great cheer from the victorious team gathered at the bottom ( one would forsee a huge crowd for such an event). The winning team would be the ones with the most remaining warriors at the top after the last fight and they would then have the right to mercilessly enforce their 'rules' on their opponents forever.
I really think it would be an exciting day, although I think a no kids rule would be appropriate of course and Hot Aches and Posing Productions could tender for the filming rights. A warm summer evening this year might yet see the famous 'Battle of Black Hawk'.
Just in case any one with the time and organisational skills decides to make the necessary arrangements I would just like to state that even though I NEVER top rope trad routes and think Trad is by far the best climbing ever, I would have to throw my lot in with the Top-Ropers on a matter of principle. That's assuming I would even have the honour of being invited, hopefully what I lack in skill and fitness would be offset by my enthusiasm and experience. Bring it on!

In reply to Mark Sheridan:

I would pay good money to watch that spectacle Mark, lol.

But in all seriousness, some of the respondants that state that learners should go here, there, and everywhere need to have a word with themselves. By whom and when was it decided, (and made law) that learners have any more/less right to frequent whichever crag they want??

Granted that it wouldnt be a good idea to hog a "stanage classic" all day top roping with a large group. But a duo aren't going to tie up any route for any longer than a pair leading/seconding it.

As far as polish goes..... How does top roping a route create more polish than leading it?? Do top ropers actively look to plant sandy shoes into holds when being lowered off of a route?

Lastly, I wonder if the ignorant elitist arseholes who gave the bollocking would have done the same to a couple of six and half foot rugby players?? Or would they have politely waited their turn, in fear of getting a punch to the face?? Hmmmm, I know what my money is on.

In reply to sadsetts:

Precisely; Real hard men, eh!

Anyway any volunteers for organising the summer event?

In reply to AnnaSpanna:
Hope it doesn't put you off to much - you have just as much right as anybody else to be out in the fresh air enjoying yourself.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:
absolutely!
there are some right grumpy old gits at our local crags
don't give up though - it's not their place, especially when you're in such a small group.
just shout loudly about Elgar and Wagner and Stravinsky to gain their respect. Works for me

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Fcukwits to say the least. Please don't be put off - you have met a couple of idiots - most of us would know much better. Keep at it, lots of milage in our much anticipated fab summer (has to be better than 08). Add Birchen to your list too. No one has a monopoly on any rock at all - tell em "with respect go fcuk yourselves"

In reply to Glen:

Here here.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

The first few leads are always scary. Stick with it and the rewards will follow.

In reply to AnnaSpanna: Hi Anna,

I wouldnt worry to much about what the other climbers said, the only real down side of the sport is when you get idiots like this who think every climbing route should be left open for them!!. MOST!! climbers understand that everybody has to start at the beginning so please dont let this one unfortunate experience put you off.

I go to the peak district as often as i can so i you would like to join us one time feel welcome to drop me a email

Kind Regards
Will

In reply to a few idiots:

Jesus Christ there are some w4nk3rs on this thread.

None of you own Stanage. There are bloody hundreds of routes there, many of them absolute classics (enough for everybody in other words).

Anyone is welcome to top-rope whatever routes they want to without suffering verbal diarrhea or indeed just holier-than-thou preachers.

A big part of the attraction of climbing is that there are no rules - you're free to enjoy it how you want.

AnnaSpanna, if you enjoyed top roping the route then that is job done - you got out somewhere amazing, enjoyed the climbing, got some fresh air and hopefully the weather was alright too!

If you find that it helps to improve your movement skills sufficiently that you are confident to move on and lead (if you want to of course - you don't have to) I would suggest that you continue top roping. I also suggest that top roping sh1tty routes off the beaten track will do nothing to inspire you - stick with routes you like the look of! Just ignore the 'popular-routes-belong-to-us' idiots.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

That reply reduces the score by at least 5/10 .....

In reply to AnnaSpanna:
Whilst in Squamish, there were loads of topropers who got varying amounts of abuse, some due to no good reason, but others definitely deserving it.
I have never witnessed a pair of climbers toproping a route as being a problem, however I have sometimes seen groups of climbers putting a toprope on a route, leaving there all day. Dilly dallying up the route in clodhopper boots and adding greatly to the wear and tear of the rock (moreso on sandstone), and so on. One particular case in Squamish was with a guide who put topropes on every route on one particular crag and refused to let anyone else climb the routes, even when noone was wanting to toprope them. And all to line his back pocket. Whilst I'm not condoning the attitudes of the guys towards the topropers in the original thread, there are cases where you can understand where these guys are coming from.

In reply to margie:






i wasnt aware that climbers that lead owned exclusive rights to a specific crag. i have a damaged knee as a result of a motorbike crash 2 years ago, and am unable to trust myself to lead decent routes anymore, but if i want to i will sure as hell toprope a route if i want.why is there such a class system in climbing, with many sharing the view that if you dont lead you dont deserve to climb? i couldnt give a toss what others think, if they wanted to do it before me, they shouldve got there earlier, i climb for me, not to appease every other elitist tosser on the crag

/rant

In reply to AnnaSpanna: Tell em to f**k off. Thye're at one of the most densely routed crags in the country, at the off-peak time of the year. Surely they can find something to do other than shout at top ropers.

Its one thing when a instructed group hogs a line for the afternoon, but as far as I'm concerned a few friends should be able to do what they like.

In reply to chris_j_s:

Jesus Christ, you talk so much cock it's hard to know where to start.

There's probably no point getting into an argument with the likes of you, as I imagine the subtleties of history, ethics, tradition, consideration for others and not f*cking up routes for people who can climb stuff in accordance with the aforementioned values would be lost on a mind as apparently empty as yours, but some of the stuff you just wrote is so staggeringly moronic it just begs to be ripped to shreds...


An absurd statement. How do you imagine this reinforces your point in any way whatsoever? Nobody owns the rock and therefore it's ok to act like a tosser? In that case, how does this sound: nobody owns the rock and therefore it's ok for me to dismantle top rope anchors wherever I see fit? Equally ludicrous.


No they bloody well don't. You clearly don't climb hard enough (I'm giving you credit here, I suspect it's more likely that you're simply incapable of engaging your brain) to have noticed that there are loads of routes that are being trashed by repeated top roping. Check out some of the Froggatt or Roaches slabs if you don't believe me - you don't get damage like that from leaders placing their feet carefully. This falls under 'consideration for others' - statements like yours prove that you have none.


Of course there are rules - if there weren't we'd have bolts up Archangel and chips all the way up Great Slab. If you don't believe me, just try it. I'll bet you change your tune pretty damn sharpish.


See 'consideration for others' above.

For the record, I couldn't give a toss about someone top roping a classic easy route for half an hour or so before moving on. I used to, then I realised that it was their loss, they're the ones who were losing out but when people seem to think that it's acceptable to peddle up Downhill Racer for hours on end and then use inane arguments like yours in a pathetic attempt to justify it, well, I run out of patience...

In reply to Pagan:
Actually mate, Chris J is right;

None of the climbers who insist T.R.ers get off the popular routes so that they can lead them own the crag. Ergo they have no more of a right to be there than the top ropers. Top roping is not acting like a tosser. It is an effective way to climb at your limit and therefore learn motor engrams and IMPROVE.

Anyone can top rope any route they want to (within reason). As I mentioned before, top roping is an integral part of modern technique, and climbing a pile of sh**ty choss because some hairy arsed 40 something year old in his ronhill tights says so is absurd. It is true that top roping does cause some scuffing, especially on soft sandstone. However, on softer rock, top roping is much less damaging to the rock than falling on the gear. Also, by claiming that top ropers damage our precious crags, are you not also forgetting the impact you have? Do you climb barefoot, to leave no rubber marks or polish? Do you climb without chalk? Do you use only soft pro, to avoid scratching pro placements? Do you walk to the crag or drive? Do you pack in and pack out? and so on.

There are no rules in climbing, other than have fun stay safe and be legal. When you refer to bolting, you refer to ethics, which run strongly in British climbing. Nobody wants to bolt all rock routes, as you suggest.

Also, there is a difference, which you seem unable to grasp, between 2 or 3 friends top roping routes, and a primary school top roping outdoors bonanza (either of which are fine, by the way). Is it that you see top roping as inferior? Well it is not.

I suggest you think hard about your attitude to others at the crag. If I came across someone like you, I would have some choice words, believe me! It is just a hobby, and people MUST be allowed to enjoy it how they see fit, not how you see fit.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Actually, re-reading your thread title and post they don't actually line up:

"Topic - Crap experience of first lead"

"My first weekend climbing in the peak district ended by being moaned at by a couple of blokes for top-roping a popular route and it has really knocked my confidence"

What is this thread about, again ?

In reply to Pagan:

Good morning. Glad I got your attention!

Oh yes, our glorious history through rose tinted glasses. Despite the fact that I am indeed aware of, and take a great interest in, the history, ethics and 'tradition' that you cite, you are somewhat deluded if you feel that this is somehow a 'requirement' as a climber.

In addition, with your breadth of knowledge and self-professed subtelty of your understanding you will be aware that practices which we like to consider less ethical such as top roping will also have been taking place throughout history also - it just isn't very glamourous to remember that when compared to the kind of heroics which are inked onto the history books.

In 50 years time we most certainly won't be thinking of people such as AnnaSpanna top roping classic routes but that doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

You also should note that beginners to climbing are highly unlikely to have studied its history in depth. This is something they may become more aware of as their interest in the sport grows.


Who is being absurd here? Top roping a route is not being a tosser. How does a life endangering action like removing anchors compare to being rude to someone top roping because you someone think you are more worthy than them. Nowhere near 'equally ludicrous'.

My point is just because you feel you can climb a route in a better style does not mean that everybody else should bow down and stand aside. If you didn't get there first you just have to wait (you've demonstrated to me that patience is in short supply in todays society) - you snooze you lose!


Absolute tosh! I don't need your credit because from your comments I don't believe you are worthy of handing out credit.

You're right - leaders placing their feet carefully wouldn't cause much damage but it may surprise you that not all leaders do place their feet carefully (that is a skill which must be learned through experience) and that there are plenty of routes which are polished to buggery through lead traffic. In addition, ground up ascents (which I would suggest is what most people do alongside successful onsights) have much the same sort of damage as top roping but also involve taking lobs onto gear and damaging the rock around gear placements.

Basically all you are saying here is don't anyone dare leave their mark on the rock before you. Of course, with your perfect footwork and your 100% onsight success rate you won't fall on any gear or mess up a foot placement and leave any rubber behind or scuff the rock. No doubt you won't use any chalk either which has an effect due to its acidity.


Brilliant! How very relevant to this discussion...

If you were able to engage your brain you would realise that we are having a discussion about the style of ascent. It hardly sounded like AnnaSpanna was up there with a drill and a set of chisels. Your word, moronic, springs to mind!


Great! So does your 'consideration for others' extend to remembering what it was like to be a beginner. How very hypocritical of you to be retrospectively referring to people as tossers for something you used to do. This ridiculous 'class' system which you are trying to apply is elitist and the kind of behaviour which makes people feel intimidated (we try to eliminate it from society in general). That, in turn, leads to accidents because people feel pressured to take greater risks before they are ready in the name of your so called ethics.

It isn't so much me not engaging my brain as you failing to see further than your ever-narrowing perpective...

In reply to chris_j_s:


I remember. I tried to lead a VD in Yarncliff quarry. I don't think top roping classics ever came into it.

In reply to AnnaSpanna: About three years ago I watched someone top rope Black Slab at Stanage, he then repeated 6 times, being lowered down on each occassion. Several parties, who obviously wanted to climb the route, moved on, I later had a polite word with the climber involved as I thought it was totally out of order, especially as he was climbing it fairly easily. I believed I was being reasonable, the climber involved may have have though he was being moaned at.

We all have different asperations, personally I do not deliberately top rope routes that I have ambitions to lead, although I may find myself seconding them. I very occassionally top rope an adjacent route on a quiet day, but do believe that tope roping well known, well protected, classics should be discouraged.

And we all have bad days leading, especially early in the year, just get back out there on suitable routes, it will soon come together.

In reply to GrahamD:

I don't understand your point. I'm not syaing your way is wrong.

My first climbing experience was top roped (for the first couple of days actually) on a plas y brenin course. For the rest of the week I was seconding climbs, and learning about gear placements and ropework in order that after the course I was able to go straight out and lead (which I did from then on).

Both our beginner experiences are equally as valid as one another - there is no right and wrong. That is my point.

If you read the original post you will note that AnnaSpanna led her first few climbs but was terrified therefore reverted to top roping to try and help. This is also perfectly valid (and sensible I would say). She is also entitled to climb at Stanage whilst doing this.

In reply to John Gresty:
I think you were right, 5 or 6 of the lower offs and 5 of the ascents were being unreasonable on such a popular route at such a busy crag.

Would you have had a word if he'd climbed the route just the once? If so, I wouldn't have agreed with you.

The first time wouldn't have bothered me, if he was climbing in reasonable style (ie: not scuffing about in muddy shoes) he wasn't causing any more wear and tear than a leader and was probably taking far less time than some leaders take. (Black slab was one of my early leads, I took *ages* to make some of the moves.

If someone is 'hogging' a route I think its good to have a word, but if they're just climbing it in a style you don't approve of (without damaging the rock) I don't think its anyone else's business.

From AnnaSpanna's description of events, I think the individuals moaning at her were the ones out of order, and I probably would've been inclined to tell them so had I been there.

In reply to AnnaSpanna: lolololololololol

In reply to chris_j_s:

The main point is that there seems to be a trend that beginning climbing naturally equates with having to top rope. Everyone is entitled to their own views on this, of course, but I have always thought that top roping can be totally counterproductive if where you really want to be is to be able to lead competently.

Leading is as much mental as physical and unless you are willing to take on the mental challenge, its just not going to happen - your physical training as learnt on a top rope just outstrip your mental training.

If you REALLY want to be a leader, you have to get on and lead.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:
In their own self important way they were probably trying to say that top roping classic routes is a quick way to polish them.
Don't be put off though, climbing like life is full of wankers.
Have fun.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:
Did the perps ask you how long you would be ?
or why you where top roping the route ?
which are both reasonable questions or did they just come straight out and rant on ?

Also don,t assume these people where experienced climbers as more often than not the whiners around the crags cruise the same routes every weekend and the people just getting on with the job are usually the more experienced.

In reply to Major malfunction:
BS! TR is not climbing at your limit! TR if anything is something to be used to climb beyond your limit before then leading the route (if it feels possible)
If you honestly believe that TR a route counts as actually climbing it I suggest you take up a different sport!

OK, so if I went to the same crag as you and decided to TR every route you wanted to do just before you wanted to do, you would have no qualms with this?

>As I mentioned before, top roping is an integral part of modern technique,
>
Once again BS! Please explain how it is part of 'modern technique'? So you can 'climb at your limit'?

>and climbing a pile of sh**ty choss because some hairy arsed 40 something year old in his ronhill tights says so is absurd.
>
Everyone that actually leads a route is therefore 40 and wears ronhills? Wonderful generalisation there!

Legal? There are no rules but there are laws?
There is etiquette, and commonsense. Obviously you seem to be lacking a little in these. When I was new to the sport I would always suggest for a team to go ahead of me on a route, under the assumption they would be quicker than me. This is called being considerate!

Someone topropes a route, someone leads a route .... one party is obviously climbing harder. No one is saying that this party then owns the crag but there is nothing wrong with having a little respect for your fellow climbers especially those more experienced than you!

>
I'd rather come across someone like Pagan who has a deeper appreciation for the crag, and the sport than TR saturday climbers who endeavour to enjoy 'their hobby' anyway they 'see fit' without any consideration for others who take it a little bit more seriously!

In reply to margie:

Blah blah blah superiority complex blah blah.

People have as much right to top rope as you have to lead.

That is all. They are enjoying themselves as much as you, and as long as they don't hog the route, which, by the way you can just as easily do whilst leading, then it's all fine.

'nothing wrong with having a little respect for your fellow climbers especially those more experienced than you!'

hahaha

In reply to margie:


If someone deliberately started climbing a route I was clearly about to climb, yeah I'd be narked.

If someone already happened to be climbing a route I'd like to climb, I'll wait my turn like a grown-up or find another route.

Top-roping, leading, soloing or levitating up - doesn't even come into it.

In reply to margie:

Quite right too. People turning up at Stanage just wanting a pleasant day's climbing. Having a laugh. Eating cake. Bastards! Shouldn't be allowed.

In reply to deepsoup:

Well if their not going to share..

In reply to robotninja:

I'm with you on this one. There may be various reasons for top-roping and for the benefits and deficits of doing so but it is not fair to be condescending towards other climbers, especially when they might be new to the sport and perhaps turned off because of negative attitudes they might perceive from the more experienced.

In reply to margie:
Wow, that's one big chip on that shoulder of yours!

All the pros and cons of the top-roping argument were done to death in the 1890s. Nothing new to see here. The anti top-roping purists are just as entrenched as they always were, inconsiderate climbers still exist, and (shock horror) there are still climbers who don't see anything inherently wrong with top-roping if it is done with care and consideration for both crag and other people.

In reply to Only a hill:

Equally ridiculous, there are still people who think TRing is a good way to learn how to lead !

In reply to margie: I'd rather come across someone like Pagan who has a deeper appreciation for the crag, and the sport than TR saturday climbers who endeavour to enjoy 'their hobby' anyway they 'see fit' without any consideration for others who take it a little bit more seriously!

Everyone else has already slated you, but I had to join in; just who do you think you are?
I am probably one of these people so far beneath you that you know as 'saturday climbers', you know, one of these people who dares to go out and enjoy 'my hobby' in the company of others who just 'happen to take it a bit more seriously'!
You total and utter idiot, if you said anything to me because I didn't show you enough respect as my 'superior' I'd just tell you to f*ck off.

In reply to Only a hill:


And indeed there isn't. The problem comes when people get it into their heads that considerate behaviour extends to pedalling their way up Downhill Racer because, naturally, they have a 'right' to. I don't know if you've climbed much on grit - and this really is a grit issue - but many routes are now f*cked to the point where really, they're becoming unsafe as onsight propositions. Check out the aforementioned Froggatt slabs, or the crucial hold on Piece of Mind at the Roaches or various other routes that have suffered this treatment.

I'd also have said that trashing routes (and thus destroying an experience) because you think you have a 'right' to is pretty much acting like a tosser but it seems there are more people who'd see that as acceptable behaviour than wouldn't. Sad, really.

In reply to Pagan:

"Destroying an expereience for other climbers", that should say.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Meh people leading poorly/attempting to lead trashes routes far more than a couple of people top roping.

In reply to Kid Spatula:

You reckon?!

I'd love to see a leader scrabbling with their feet all over Piece Of Mind. Actually, ignore that. I'd hate to see someone in imminent danger of really messing themselves up.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

>I know this is not a great thing to do but why?

>I've been put off going back.

Good.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Don't worry, this thread has made me even more determined to top rope, and do it more often. Bully boy tactics only make me more determined.

Strangely, no one has yet to critisise my climbing technique face to face. Did have a few strange looks when I've mentioned dry tooling boulders, but, bizarrely, people seem a lot more ready to act tough on the internet than to my face.

In reply to fishy1:

Are you trying to conceal a threat of violence behind that post of yours? Quality.

So say, hypothetically, that I take issue with you hogging a route with your top rope and ask you to move? You decide to hit me. How do you think you'll get on when I press charges for assault?


Probably because you came across as even more of a c*nt than you do on here.

In reply to Pagan:

Ah, I was going to say 'psycho', but that will do nicely.

CJ.

In reply to Pagan:

No.


Not going to happen. I have never hit anyone who didn't hit me first.


Lovely, you know swear words. Well done.

In reply to fishy1:

Good for you. Noone can stop you behaving like a prat. It is, as someone no doubt pointed out higher up the thread, your right.

jcm

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

ok, there is a simple saying when people annoy you in this sort of situation, it goes like follows;


IT TAKES 42 MUSCLES TO FROWN


IT TAKES 16 MUSCLES TO SMILE!












and only 4 muscles to raise your arm and smack em in the chops! ;oP

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

I think I'm going to print this thread..a definitive list of twunts and reasonable people on UKC. I'll leave it to the great UKC collective to figure for themselves which side of the fence they sit on.

PS. I didn't intend to add value so please don't feel the need to point this out

In reply to Rockmonkey680:

Which side of the fence they sit on is a subjective matter. Suffice to say that opinions range from "Ahh, poor dear, some nast person shouted at you" through to "you'll need to toughen up a bit if you want to get anywhere".

In reply to AnnaSpanna: climbing has no rules do what you want as long as youre not hogging routes i suppose, if i never top roped anything i wud have never really built up confidence to start leading

In reply to Rushmore:
http://www.snopes.com/science/smile.asp

And then you might feel like smiling.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:

Sorry to hear you got moaned at.

People who moan about top ropers are nobs.

Everyone has as much right to be on the rock no matter what their style of ascent.

As long as you don't damage the rock their should be no issue.

GRRRRRR....

In reply to hailtryfan:

People who bleat about the 'rights of top ropers' are knobs. Why do they always feel as though they have to justify their actions, do you suppose ?

In reply to GrahamD:

Agreed. As are those who bleat about the (supposedly preferential) rights of leaders/seconds. The only rule is that you don't damage the rock, everything else is really just a question of manners.

In reply to margie:


Spot the edits - and jeez-o do you come across as an arrogant prat.

Stu

Move along, move along please. Nothing here to see, just another top-ropping thread, move along now please.

I live near London and most of the climbing down hear is sandstone so the only accpetable way to climb is with a top rope (not many places to practice leading). I can't see why the rules should be different in the rest of the UK. We all started somewhere personally I don't see the problem with it. Give people the benifit of the doubt most are good guys/girls
Why run up the mountain just to say you got there first when you can walk and enjoy the scenery along the way.

In reply to razzorbuzz:

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make: You don't see a problem with us all starting climbing ?

In reply to GrahamD:

No sorry. I don't see a problem with Top Ropeing. I preferer to lead but as I said there is no chocie down here but no one complains thats just the way it is.

In reply to razzorbuzz:

I don't think people do complain about top roping in the general sense - more about specific applications of it.

In reply to razzorbuzz: its the way it is on sandstone for a particular reason, it wasnt just an arbitrary decision you know.

southern sandstone is toproped because (without soloing) its the best way of minimising rock damage (rocks too soft to take gear)
routes are generally not top roped elsewhere because it is better for the rock, and the routes can be protected "naturally".

by having an ethic that discourages top roping, routes see less traffic (and therefore less polish) than they would do if a "top roping is fine" ethic were in place, as people lead within their limits usually, and top rope above their limits.

that is one of the reasons why many people go mental about top ropers.

others reasons are about it encouraging noisy groups, hogging routes, and people just being miserable gits.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:


Don't be put off, the solution is simple, don't top rope, stick to seconding until you feel confident enough to lead and then only lead climbs within your limit until you are happy enough with putting in protection not to mind a lead fall.

If you don't respect standard practice for a given climbing area you will get moaned at, it's up to you to decide if you think this is a problem for you, and if you think you should respect traditions or not.... but if you decide to go against there's not much sense in getting upset about the remarks you will attract.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: to clarify my own feelings, I actually dont mind people top roping considerately and infrequently.

I myself have had a top rope up on 2 occasions before making a step up in grade, just to see what it was like.

I did my first lead last week.
I only placed one good bit of gear, everything else was a bit iffy, and I ran up the rock (It was like a 7 though hahaha)I'm a little TOO confident.

In reply to AnnaSpanna:


You just get climbers who have been doing it for years and think their better people for that reason... its crap really.

Personally I think there's a little too much competition/aggravation around climbing - for example people getting insanely worked up over a single bolt. I haven't been climbing too long, and am still young - so maybe will eventually see what's so wrong with things like this - but i just see it as a reason to get worked up - climbings all about nature, adrenaline, but also relaxation (to me anyway).

So you might get some snob telling you setting up a top rope is '...oh so bad...'but just ignore them because they're probably doing it because someone once did it to them. Take pride in the fact that you'll never do it to anyone when you've been climbing for decades...hopefully!

sorry for your bad experience - happy climbing!

In reply to Mckenzie:

Ah, the voice of youth. God help us all.

'I know nothing about it really but I'm sure all these other people are wrong.'

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

God can't help you now... and yes - i know very little, but they do seem out of order...

In reply to AnnaSpanna: I've been climbing for about 25 years and have come accross many people with egos and no manners. There is nothing wrong with top roping the odd route to improve. It would be considered a bit out of order if you had left a rope on the route for ages and they were queueing. Other than that - you've done nothing wrong except meeting a couple of assholes. Don't let them put you off. Leading on gear takes a long time to get used to - just keep going.

In reply to Mckenzie:


and


So you've provided one answer to your own question.

In reply to GrahamD:

See, but in my opinion - if a route has a bold that you don't like - ignore it.

Okay - so its one thing to place a bolt in a route thats been climbed for years and is considered a classic... but a single bolt - is that really enough to get worked up over?

Anyway, getting off topic - I was merely pointing out that some people do get aggravated over what i would personally call 'petty' reasons...

climbing is about enjoyment remember, and i believe if it causes someone so much pain to see a bolt or a top rope - as is more appropriate to the conversation - then maybe they shouldn't climb. Or at least invest in some meditation or something!

In reply to Mckenzie:

You don't mean a single bolt though. Which one route in the UK would you chose to place it on ? And yes, it is something to get worked up over because once you choose to go down that route it is not easy to go back.

Climbing is defined as different things by different people. Enjoyment to you obviously equates to a sanitised 'Alton Towers' style pre packaged adventure. Not everyone views climbing in the same way.

In reply to GrahamD:


And you know this how? In fact i do mean a single bolt... bolting an entire route is a completely different matter.


If you read my message I put 'in my opinion...' - I'm not telling anyone what to believe; unlike you. I am merely stating my opinion.



Oh yes, of course it does... because I don't go mental over someone placing a bolt - because i have a little understanding and self control - i live in a box? No mate. Not quite.


Hence back to my original point... opinion! And yours seems a little over-zealous.

(yes - i can quote too...)

Just because someone puts up a top rope doesn't mean there a sh*t climber does it? No. And its the same thing; some people may not have the confidence and other may just want to top rope.
What I'm not saying is that anyone can put a bolt in anywhere they want - just because they want too... or because they feel like it.
But i do believe that if people agree a route needs a bolt - and make a mature and sensible decision, then one single bolt doesn't mean the end of the world.

In reply to Mckenzie:

One bolt in one route in the UK ? and one only ?


As are we all.


Who mentioned a box ?


Nothing over zealous in trying to preserve a very limited commodity. IMO of course. Others see nothing wrong in turning the countryside into a playground for the lowest common denominator.


In some cases it is symtomatic of being a crap climber. Lack of confidence is one instance because you need confidence in order to be a good climber.


Across the country the ongoing debate is NOT about one single bolt. You are right about it not being the end of the world but it IS one step further towards the dumbing down and commodotisation of climbing in the UK.

In reply to margie: Don't send them up there, that's the last thing naze needs! it's a perfect summer bolt hole, and to top that, you'll have a job finding decent anchors, and that will piss people off even more if the all the anchors are attached to your TR.

OP: IMO, maybe you shouldn't be outside climbing without a competant leader, it's not safe. Who was showing you how to lead if you both had to tr your last route?