UKC

Separate teams of Norwegian, German, and Swiss climbers seized the day in unusually cold temperatures during February and established gigantic new ice routes on Norwegian cliffs the size of Yosemite Valley's walls.

Bjorn-Elvind Aartun climbed two routes on the 1,000-meter-high Kjerag massif...

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=46418

In reply to UKC News: Norway is the place! appears to be some controversy around Jasper's ascent of Fosslimonster. Imagine if this had happened in Scotland? Taken from Climbing.com forums:




Quote from http://isklatring.no/ :


Quote:
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Robert Jasper is for sure not the first internationally reknown climber who has realized his limited abilities when confronted to this line. Several climbers have recognized the potential this line offered to move the standards of modern ice-climbing to the next level. But instead of waiting for the right conditions or working on his mental skills, Jasper decided to take the route down to his own level. Robert Jasper and his friends have placed bolts for the lead climber through the overhangs, as well as establishing bolted rappel anchors all the way from the overhangs back to the valley floor (nine pitches). If the style and climbing ethics introduced by Robert Jasper was accepted in Norway, this kicker of a line -10 minutes approach from the main-road- would probably have been sent 10 or 15 years ago. The reaction among Norwegian climbers is a mix between disbelief and shock.

In reply to Erik B: Very interesting. The full post criticising Jasper is here: http://isklatring.no/newnews.html - they obviously tried, very commendably, to get a response from him before posting it, but having failed decided to post it with out his response.

I've found Norwegian ethics slightly confusing. When I first went to Lofoten in the late 90s (where I incidentally met Robert and Daniella Jasper briefly) the word was that they were very much against any bolting. But then over the next decade bolts have proliferated on Lofoten, with more cliffs becoming sport venues and various bolted abseil points appearing. Just over from Lofoten on the mainland we found a classic line on Eidetind had bolted belays. Kvaloya, to the north, is likewise a mix of sport and trad, and some trad lines have bolted descents.

This isn't a defence of Jasper, and perhaps in the part of Norway where the climb is, the ethics are much clearer and better known, but it's not that apparent to visitors what Norwegian ethics are and I suspect this is because Norwegian climbers haven't decided amongst themselves yet.

In reply to UKC News: Wow!

In reply to TobyA: I have always thought that bolts are never acceptable on long routes in Norway, except for fixed descent-routes and in some special cases for belays. The shorter the route, the more lax attitude to bolting: for sport crags they are totally OK, for 2-4 pitches minimal bolting should be practised, and for long routes no bolting.

Not very complicated is it?

In reply to jwi:

What then are the special cases?


Although they don't seem to bolt unnecessarily (i.e. cracks) at least not up north where I've climbed (perfectly sensible to my mind).


I don't really get what minimal bolting is - Solens Sønner on Lofoten for example? One man's minimal is likely to be another man's clip up. And from my limited experience, Klubbruta on Eidetind has chains all (or perhaps - 'some') of the way up it and that is much more than 4 pitches. We never used them as somehow our 50 metre pitches weren't quite in sync with the bolted belays, but they were clearly unnecessary as belays were easy to build. If you didn't want to climb to the top and walk down, I guess you could of abbed off them though.

What about the main face of Baugen at Hollenderan? Is that bolt free? We did Gallionsruta on the side and follows the bolted descent in effect.


It's not particularly simple either!

In reply to Jonas: Eh..... don't really agree. Example: Nissedal...... 400m high dome with trad routes, fully bolted slab routes with 7/8 bolts a pitch and finally mixed routes - Mostly trad with bolts at the hard / bold bits.

I was going to write a proper response but too busy.....

In reply to TobyA: Baugen is totally bolt-free. Only the descent is bolted. It makes sense to bolt the descent, as the descent would look quite unwieldy otherwise.

Yes, Solens Sønner is a good example of a minimally bolted route, i.e. enough bolts to make a fall sort of safe. Its quite short too, more of a roadside crag than a mountain route, right?

A Swedish team put in fixed belays on Kjerag on what they thought was a new route (it followed pretty much the same terrain as "Hoka Hey", established a few weeks earlier), and caught a lot of flack for that. Generally fixed belay are frown upon, if they are not necessary for descent.

(As for the special case of some bolted belays on Lofoten: I pretty much suspect that bolted belays are OK on routes where it would be a bother to take down clients to "Nord-Norsk klatreskola" if the weather craps out.)

In reply to andyinglis: Nissedal was first developed by some Germans I think?

In reply to jwi: seems like the accepted use of bolts for descents is adding to the confusion of bolt ethics in norway! Ive climbed in winter in Rjukan and lofoten but the new routes i did in lofoten (and to my knowledge all the new winter routes done by other british climbers) have been done with the scottish winter ethic in mind, i.e onsight groundup with no bolts or pre-placed natural gear. One of the things which makes lofoten so special in winter is the quasi alpine nature of the mountains with often difficult descents, i would hate to see bolts used for descents there!

the line jasper climbed is absolutely stunning so i can see how his use of bolts to climb it has upset norwegian climbers

In reply to jwi:


Oooo! - You cynic you!

In reply to TobyA:

The great Norwegian Bolt.... Saga..... debate starts.... Well if we could find any Norwegians to comment... It not surprise to me to see two members of this fantastic climbing trio are not Norwegian but German and Swiss! And for the bolt debate! Well I think climbers in Norway are so parochial that a national policy on anything related to climbing is a joke.

If anyone can explain to me the climbing situation in Norway, well I am all ears because after two years of living here I really have not got a clue, I just get the feeling I go out, climb what I see and nobody knows about but the Swedes.

Thats being cynical for you

TTFN

Jamie
PS the bolts placed by the Germans are considered crap.

It is a bit hard to comment on bolts placed on a climb I never will be able to do. But anyway. Its not so easy to understand the norwegian "bolt-code". Different areas have different climbing traditions and different climbers. As a visiting climber however, its easy: Bolting is not allowed. Not from the climbing community and it is actually illegal without permissions from the landowner(s).
So leave it! Dont bolt. Just go climbing. There are lot of stuff to do.

Read more about the offisial debate on theese websites:

http://www.ntk.no/article.php?ar_id=17878&fo_id=6896
http://thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=2989

In reply to Sveinung:

Thanks for the helpful reply Sveinung.


That's interesting and good to know. Who is likely to own the mountains in the north? Local farmers? The state? Local municipalities?


This is a very good, clear statement but it seems to separate the "alpine climbing community" from others who perhaps don't "treasure[...] very highly our code of ethics summed up in “leave no trace”."

In reply to TobyA:
Who owns the mountains...... Good question, hard to answer. Legally, its easy. Local farmers, the state og someone else. There are no general rule here, you have to check.
There is also an aspect with what purpose you bring a boltkit. To place a bolt in an emergency situation is different from establishing bolted climbs or rappel routes.

In reply to venis3269:

Going to help UKC 'adapt and grow in an increasingly uncertain and volatile world' are you? Exciting, on you go....

The debate continues:

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=2994

and also on:

http://www.isklatring.no/newnews.html

The Norwegian Tindeklubb has made it view point known and there is nothing new in there views, it has been there standard for a long time, however Robert Jasper's reply is an example (IMHO) of the very defused nature of the climbing community in norway. Tindeklubb has it views, respected by many, but how many people actually hear this voice or respected it on the ground. You only have to climb on Sotra, to see bolts places in areas like Trollveggen, an area which is suppoced to be bolt free to see there views are being ingnored by locals on the ground, but I wonder if this more to do with, that even local norwegian climbers are not part of any climbing community, but very local and make there own rules up?

I respect the Tindeklubb views and have always followed there guidelines, but I can see they will also be ignored or not even heard due to the nature climbing groups or individuals n Norway.

All things are equal in Norway, just some people views are more equal than others,and this is the problem.

TTFN

Jamie

In reply to Jamie Simpson - Alpine Dragons: Thanks for the update Jamie. As stated above my limited experience in northern Norway is closer to Jasper's (and your's seemingly) than the Tindeklubb's position, although this of course doesn't mean that they're not right!

In reply to TobyA:

on www.steepstone.com a debate has been ongoing, with a staggering 22 post (which is unheard of on Norwegian forums, you will be lucky to get more than a few). Anyway, I don't get a lot of it, as it writern in dialect, and often in informal chat form, but comments range from:

It is good that NTK have posted there views in english for everyone to understand.

What right has NTK have to tell people of it views when it is a closed club (You need to be signed in by two people, have climbed x number of routes, write an essay on something mountain related, show the right attitude, probbale very similar to joining the SMC or alpine club in the UK).

NTK gets a bit of a bettering, for example poster says ( I think) Suddenly NTK takes the high ground after hiding and being silent for so many years!

I have paraphrased many of the above and take it that my Norwegian isn't good enough to see if people are being sarcastic or not, but sarcasm might just be a an English thing, as when I try it they just thing I am being serious

In reply to UKC News:
When anything regards to bolts, you Brits always have a lot to say. What about the route itself? Not many people bother to talk about it. 900m ice route is really something; whether with bolts or not. If it was all the way bolted, it would hit the headline as the longest bolted winter route as well. Really dwarfs Rjukan and the Ben. I wish the Ben had big wall routes like those. 1000m of Scottish grade XV? Does anyone know of any other potential for big wall ice routes in the world?

In reply to Skinny Kim: With enough bolts anything is possible by anyone, so unfair and takes away all 'adventurous' aspects when you are guranteed to get up it.