UKC

Is anybody else as excited as me that DMM have started selling their military gear to the general public? Little bit more expensive than the standard stuff though...
I know what santa will be bringing me this christmas!

In reply to ryanconroy: forgot the link!
http://www.v12outdoor.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=69_265&oscsid=13b0969...

In reply to ryanconroy:

>I know what santa will be bringing me this christmas!

You won't be able to find it though.

Regards

D

In reply to ryanconroy:

Presumably you spend most of your free time buried in the garden breathing through a straw ...

In reply to ryanconroy: I also got the V12 email. I can't say I'm excited but I am intrigued. I remember seeing it in the DMM catalogue and thinking 'weird'. Does anyone know why military would buy say ice axes in 'tactical colours? Abseiling equipment and krabs - absolutely. I'm sure many police forces would buy them as well as military. But ice tools or cams?

Obviously military contracts become big business for some firms - I remember selling a Camelbak to a soldier back in the mid-90s from the outdoor shop I was working in. He was going to 'give it go' having heard about them from mountain biking mates, and thought it might be useful whilst on exercises or deployment. Now half the Camelbak website is dedicated to their military and 'tactical' systems. But I'm still intrigued by who needs a black DMM Rebel ice axe or no. 4 Dragon!

In reply to TobyA:

Have you not seen 'For Your Eyes Only'?

Not sure about the axe though.

In reply to TobyA:

The SAS, SBS, Royal Marines and a few other odds and sods have 'Mountain Troops' trained to lead their counterparts through that sort of terrain. Hence why British Forces spend so much time in Norway.

Having said that, most think its a tad farcical, if you're close enough to see the colour of a cam at night, then you'd probably be able to hear them anyway.

In reply to ryanconroy:

You are a sad sad Walter Mitty of a man
And Dauphin is right, using it for practical everyday use is a nightmare because you cant find anything, and everything is the same colour! I can't believe they've got the cheek to sell it at a higher price, lol.

In reply to TobyA:

I can't quite see how black is a tactical colour for an ice tool!

In reply to nikinko:

Well, lots of the kit is white (clothing), but then you have black bits too because if you need an axe, the terrain is often a monochrome mixture, not just white. The point is, it's not red.

In reply to jonny2vests:


Sure. You can buy ex-Finnish army skis for very little here (mainly because they aren't very good), so white skis makes sense. I've heard that Scarpa Vega plastic boots are bought by the thousands by the Indian army for their guys who are up on the sensitive borders with China on the high Himalayan glaciers. And many of my mates in Finland starting off ice climbing had black Lowa plastic boots which bizarrely they ordered online from some surplus place in North Wales! They were all IIRC German army stock and by far the cheapest crampon compatible boots available. But I still suspect that if you had to raid a heavy water plant in Rjukan again, you would be unlikely to think sneaking up on it via a WI4 would be the most sensible approach!


Yep. Ice climbing might be many things, but quiet is not one of them!

In reply to ryanconroy:

Add 20% for the word 'Tactical" applied to a product. Will they be doing silent torque nuts.

In reply to Paul F:

Shhhh! We aren't allowed to torque about them.

In reply to davidbeynon:

So I can't run around shouting "LETS GET TACTICAL MARINES" in an Aliens type manner?
:0)

In reply to ryanconroy:
Stealth ninja gear, I want a full rack now.
Oh hold on, no sorry, forget that.

In reply to Paul F:

Isn't 20% a pretty good value markup for military procurement?

Generally I thought it was about 500% for larger equipment...

In reply to Removed User:
Get back to work you.

In reply to ryanconroy: Looks awesome, now I can relive my call of duty fantasies with white DMM flys

In reply to ryanconroy:

Can you get tactical stoves? And a tactical spoon to eat your tactical food (sorry, your rations)?

I have dabbled in some of the bushcraft stuff, and my impression is that as soon as something is labelled "tactical" the price goes up and the quality down. Just look at tactical knives and tactical axes. Having said that, I expect the DMM tactical kit will retain the usual DMM high quality.

The strange thing is, genuine military spec stuff like survival knives tend to be cheap and not at all trendy.

Of course, if an item was genuinely tactical, it would be held together with gaffer tape and cable ties

In reply to ryanconroy: ninja gear is a funny concept, but I imagine it would be a right ball-ache!

In reply to ryanconroy: you'll have to steal them of these guys first...

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/55/norway8201002191025031.jpg

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/5146/norway9201002191027011.jpg


And if anyone is wondering the pics are from 'cold response' 2010

In reply to dunkymonkey17:

Slack on black………no the other black….

In reply to Paul F:

Beal Joker anyone?

In reply to TobyA:

I think you could sneak up quite quietly, just using other folks axe placement after a busy day there. Footwork would still make a little noise, plus a bit of gear clanking too.

In reply to stewieatb:

?

http://www.beal-planet.com/2010/anglais/corde-joker.php

In reply to Gaz lord:


So the whilst the Brits are having a laugh ice climbing, everyone else seems to have been practising their soldiering! http://www.mil.no/ovelser/cr09/english/start/article.jhtml?articleID=175632

In reply to TobyA: I never knew Finland were allowed such relations with NATO, I was under the impression from some Finnish friends that if they were to join, then the poopie would hit the whirlie (so to speak) thing with Russia. Or did I misunderstand?

In reply to almost sane:

Yeah, cos there's plenty of oddballs like the OP who will pay any price to live out their fantasy as 'Mohammed I'm 'ard Bruce Lee'.

In reply to Gaz lord:

Finland's relations with NATO go back to 91, and they have been a member of Partnership for Peace since it began. Your Finnish mates are giving you the rather 'received wisdom version', but it's quite a lot more complex than that. If you are interested, you can download a three page briefing I wrote on Finland and NATO here: http://www.ceps.eu/book/sorting-out-finlands-complicated-attitude-towards-n... it goes over in three pages the main arguments.

Now, back to black ice axes...

In reply to ryanconroy: I'm not sure why a set of nuts being coloured black and olive makes them ~£40 more than the original set?

I can see the odd forces person wanting to buy bits a peices to supplement what they get issued with, but then from my limited knowledge of the forces I don't see every soldier using this stuff and if its really specialist my impression was that there was loads of gear for them?

In reply to nikinko:
>I can't quite see how black is a tactical colour for an ice tool!

Everyone knows that black ice is far more dangerous than standard white ice. We should be applauding the fact that our boys now have the correct kit to deal with this. Of course, ninjas have had similar ice tools for centuries, but that's because they're ninjas and they have real ultimate power.

http://medieval2.heavengames.com/m2tw/history/miscellaneous_history_folder/...

http://iganinja.jp/en/2008/02/12/kama.JPG

In reply to mdh: Those nuts do look pretty cool but for £112.50 . . . On your bike son!

Coloured kit is deferentially a lot better for what most of us use it for, for quick selection when you know what you need.

This really inst anything to get excited about unless you have to much money coming up to Christmas, if this is the case let me know and ill paint my rack whatever colour you want and give it you for well lets say £500???

MB

In reply to ryanconroy: I think the real question here should be.... Is DMM gear truly squaddie proof?

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:
Ah but you forget "the premium"; whenever someone supplies equipment or services to the public sector, it ALWAYS carries a 30% lets fleece the tax payer premium.

DMM are just following the rules!

In reply to ryanconroy:
this isn't military gear, it's for climbing goths and emo boulderers who fancy stepping up to the plate and actually climbing for a change...

In reply to TobyA:


Ah, but that's exactly the point, they wouldn't be expecting you to take the easy/sensible approach! Therefore, that's exactly the way you ought to approach. Who cares how hard or ludicrous it is, it's a little like climbing being pointless, who dares wins!

In reply to TobyA:

Why are all these photos sloping to the right?
Has Scandinavia experienced some strange geological event?

In reply to Gaz lord:



Do you reckon someone would run around to the top of the waterfall first to set up a top rope before they carry out their assault?

In reply to ryanconroy:
LOL
i can just see it now in Lost and Found :- Lost Jan 14th in Corrie Nicky nacky noo DMM Fly in tactical white.
Believe me orange is the colour you want

In reply to 3leggeddog:

I cannot speak for MOD procurement, I know it does not have the best reputation, but in my little bit of the public sector we usually pay between 50 and 70% what the public pay for the same goods.

I suspect DMM give the MOD a healthy discount.

In reply to mdh:

Cos they don't make many.


Can you? I can't. Just the odd sad civvie.

In reply to The New NickB:
DMM have been great supporters of our service mountaineering sports also:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=58633

MOD has in my experience always got a good deal on mountaineering kit when we have needed to buy it from DMM and other manufacturers. I've never bought black nuts or white ice axes though!

In reply to ryanconroy:

Tactical cams? I thought the military advocated bolting?

Chris

In reply to jonny2vests:

And cadets and TA.

In reply to ryanconroy: Why o why would any civillian want to buy this gear unless it was at give away prices?

In reply to ryanconroy: I would - for a song - then paint it in colours that DMM never even imagined....

In reply to jonny2vests: 'Mohammed I'm 'ard Bruce Lee'.

You show me how to control a wild f*cking gypsy and I'll show you how to control an unhinged, pig-feeding gangster.

In reply to almost sane: Good point, maybe he had "tactical camera" and couldn't see it well enough to hold it straight. Or perhaps its an unsubtle hint that the Finns are sliding towards the left, i.e. West!

In reply to jonny2vests:

There have been plenty of stories about serving soldiers in Afghanistan buying their own kit. Recently Australian soldiers were paying up to $5,000 of their own money for new boots, GPS and other gear and the same is said of many US soldiers. That is how the Camelbak thing took off - they see something better and just go buy it. Criticism of the standard issue gear is widespread. Both Arcteryx (for CAN) and Wild Things and Patagonia (US) have a big line in military clothing.

In reply to Damo: That's interesting. I hadn't realised Patagonia do. What do they make? They definitely keep it off their website with their big corporate responsibility message.

In reply to TobyA:

Same gucci shit in desert (like you'd notice the difference).

http://soldiersystems.net/tag/patagonia/

Regards

D

In reply to TobyA: pops up every now and again on ebay; Patagonia MARS gear, lots of dull coloured clothing from their civilian line plus some other general gear.

Didn't mountain equipment make military sleeping bags at one point?

In reply to TobyA:

In addition to that noted above, yep, they make a drab olive version of some of their regular stuff - Capilene baselayers, R1 fleece, DAS parka, Mixmaster pants etc. I used to buy MM pants for Antarctica from Diamondbacktactical.com which had the whole range.

As to how it gels with the corporate responsibility thing, I guess that's a matter of opinion. Personally I don't like the idea of supporting the warmongering policies our countries currently pursue, but I don't like to begrudge fighting soldiers better gear if they want it, and of course it's not really any of my business if they want to do it. I've always found Chouinard to be a disingenuous blow-hard anyway, so I don't put too much store in the whole Patagonia marketing guff. And their sleeves are too short

D

In reply to Gaz lord:

I doubt it. Left in an empty room with two ball bearings the average squaddie would lose one and break the other

In reply to Gaz lord: I had a pair of issue Matterhorns and Lowa plastics from my military days, decent kit but I wouldn't wear it as a civillian when the world's your Oyster.

In reply to Damo:

Well yeah, they all do it, I've done it myself and you'd be daft not to. But we're talking about DMM climbing gear here. No Bill Oddie I know would do that.

In reply to Alex T (RAFMA):


Were you at the comp Alex? RAF did pretty well this year, got spanked by two of the buggers and one of them had only been climbing ten minutes.

In reply to pol:

Roger that.

In reply to ryanconroy:

Oh good god! DO you think the Military even bothers using matt black cams, there is no silent sneaking up a rock face with climbing kit and then combat kit.

One to many Andy McFlabb stories before bed I think.

In reply to jonny2vests:

You are right I bow down to your superior knowledge of everything.

I doubt a limited run of products means that there is a 50% increase in the manufacturing costs even when you take into account the companies profit margin.

I know plenty of people in the forces who are kit monsters and would love to get their hands on a nice matte finish black karabiner. I didn't say that your average infanteer would be running out and buying a full rack and a set of axes for his next trip to Afghanistan.

In reply to spartan:

If you take a visit to Sennen when the rock phase of the ML courses are running, you will see that all the rock climbing kit issued to the guys on the course is black or DPM.

Saying that, I've never seen them use a white ice axe when they go to Norway for the ice climbing phase!

In reply to ryanconroy: how do they get black slings on their cam's etc dyneema only comes in white does it mean they are solely nylon slings?

In reply to jonny2vests:

Hi, No I didn't, I am a bit injured at the moment. Nice to see the few RAF can take on the Army hordes and win through with some talent!!

In reply to Alex T (RAFMA):

Win through with some reach more like . The semi was about 8a+, the only people getting through were gibbons and 8c beasts.

In reply to mdh:

Good. Well done.


Yeah, some squaddies do buy a black krab, after which it stays forever clipped to their patrol sack looking nice. Stuff like that has Nato Serial Numbers though, so anyone with any sense will get them through the stores chain.

In reply to Damo:


Yep, totally agree. Having worked in outdoor shops a bit I remember selling good few olive Buffalo shirts to soldiers so they could use them for work as well as for hobbies.


But you just outed yourself on another thread as a giant!!! So it's hardly surprising.

In reply to minus273degrees:

Pretty sure it comes in any colour you like.

In reply to spartan:

You haven't been paying attention have you.

In reply to jonny2vests:

"Pretty sure it comes in any colour you like".

Dyneema only comes in white.

In reply to MJ:

What, like cotton only comes in white? Then it gets faffed with to make it whatever? Even if its woven in with something else, the result is not white.

I've got a cupboard full of non-white dyneema slings that seems to disagree with you.

In reply to spartan: You'd be surprised what is used and adapted....i have prevoiusly painted axes and used black kit.. anything to hide you a bit more is worth it if you think someone may be having a pop at you!

In reply to jonny2vests:
Yeah, some squaddies do buy a black krab, after which it stays forever clipped to their patrol sack looking nice. Stuff like that has Nato Serial Numbers though, so anyone with any sense will get them through the stores chain.

At no point in my posts did I say that the afore mentioned black krab would actually be used for anything vaguely useful!

In reply to jonny2vests:


I think the pedantic point is that you have cupboard full of slings made out of a mix of dyneema (the white bit) and other nylons (the coloured bits). I also understood that dyneema can't be dyed, hence those funky white ultra light sacks that some Americans have, but the technology may have changed recently.

In reply to MJ:


my black and blue dyneema slings think otherwise

In reply to TobyA: Wait, so you're saying my dyneema sling isn't all dyneema...? I feel lied to. Or is there a specific reason why they would mix it with other materials?

In reply to Gaz lord:



Yeah - because your slings would be easy to lose in the snow if they were al white!

This is just what I remember from reading it on some manufacturers website or people discussing it here, but I'm pretty certain that at least was the case.

In reply to Gaz lord: I thought that the white bit was dyneema and the rest was nylon giving the sling a bit of stretch but how they are making them smaller by using more dyneema

In reply to abr1966: The DPM chalk in the climbers shop is selling like hot cakes

In reply to Ian Black:

Aye....there'll be plenty of grit concealment up at Stanage! It was white and magnolia mix for our axes, B&Q special...just the job!!

In reply to ryanconroy:

I have about 20 black DMM screwgates. I only tried to order one to see what they were like, but I didn't know the DofQ and a box of 50 turned up. Bit heavy though, but look nice.

In reply to mdh:


Every soldier is issued a chunky black krab with via ferrata style gate. Theyre very usefull for clipping your sack to the outside of vehicles

In reply to The New NickB:

DMM wholesale is already like 50% cheaper or something.

I've just left the gun trade where normal stuff gets the matt black / tacticool treatment and the price rockets. Now the climbing trader does it. FFS why can't the armchair "special forces" just f**k off.

In reply to Sparky LaRoue: And your helmet to your webbing

In reply to Mr Eddie: Easy solution, stop moaning and don't buy it

In reply to ryanconroy: I think the saddest bit about all this gear is we all know someone who will buy a full rack off just because its 'tactical'!