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The FWA of Satyr was completed on Sunday by Donald King and Andy Nelson. This is a summer E1,5a on Central Buttress, Stob Coire nan Lochan, Glen Coe.
"...This was quite strenuous and awkward resulting in Donald being unable to retrieve his ice axe at one point. He continued to the top of the flake with one axe and cold fingers!"
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=59260
In reply to UKC News:
Fantastic effort on what looks like a pretty desperate route! We started up our much easier route next door simultaneously with Donald (who sounded like he was enjoying himself practically singing up the first pitch!) and Andy, then saw (and heard!) the fall from the coire floor on our way down. Stayed long enough to work out that no-one was badly hurt (thoughts of broken bones crossing our minds) and see Andy finish the pitch, then left. Speechless with admiration, guys!
Fantastic effort on what looks like a pretty desperate route! We started up our much easier route next door simultaneously with Donald (who sounded like he was enjoying himself practically singing up the first pitch!) and Andy, then saw (and heard!) the fall from the coire floor on our way down. Stayed long enough to work out that no-one was badly hurt (thoughts of broken bones crossing our minds) and see Andy finish the pitch, then left. Speechless with admiration, guys!
In reply to UKC News: I hope that they haven't left any scratches on the rock, ruining it for trad rock climbers. There'll be an outcry...
In reply to UKC News:
I saw you take the fall while I was leaving the corrie, I sh*t myself for you. The line you were taking looked as hard as chuck norris. Well done guys!
I saw you take the fall while I was leaving the corrie, I sh*t myself for you. The line you were taking looked as hard as chuck norris. Well done guys!
Mike and Donald taught me winter climbing a few years back, awesome to see them on here tackling some gnarl
In reply to UKC News:
Awesome job guys!!! Well done!
Awesome job guys!!! Well done!
In reply to baileyswalk:
Its a second ascent - Chuck Norris soloed it last week in flip flops using a pair of Grivel branded toothpicks
Its a second ascent - Chuck Norris soloed it last week in flip flops using a pair of Grivel branded toothpicks
In reply to UKC News: A fine effort indeed...however the route still awaits a 1st winter ascent ground up in a continuous fashion or perhaps I am a dinosaur.
In reply to andrew forsyth:
There has been a lot of discussion over this style of ascent, both on this route (already!) and Dave Birkett's ascent on Scafell last year. And the descision is that neither this or Dave Birkett's ascent are acceptable. No-one says it's not a great achievement but if you split routes down to small enough sections, almost anything can be climbed. So even though UKC's moderators have accepted both (by default), the guidebook system has not. Over the years several other similar routes have not been accepted and this is no different.
There has been a lot of discussion over this style of ascent, both on this route (already!) and Dave Birkett's ascent on Scafell last year. And the descision is that neither this or Dave Birkett's ascent are acceptable. No-one says it's not a great achievement but if you split routes down to small enough sections, almost anything can be climbed. So even though UKC's moderators have accepted both (by default), the guidebook system has not. Over the years several other similar routes have not been accepted and this is no different.
In reply to UKC News:
Whilst this is a fantastic effort surely it cannot be accepted as a valid ground up ascent. I had understood that scottish winter climbing was founded on the principal that the whole route should be climbed in one push for the first ascentionists to claim a valid ascent. If not, climbers could traverse or even abseil in to their high point from a previous attempt to finish the route which is surely not the way to go. I doubt if climbers such as Guy Robertson and his friends would have claimed this but it is of course for them to say as I do not climb at that grade.
Whilst this is a fantastic effort surely it cannot be accepted as a valid ground up ascent. I had understood that scottish winter climbing was founded on the principal that the whole route should be climbed in one push for the first ascentionists to claim a valid ascent. If not, climbers could traverse or even abseil in to their high point from a previous attempt to finish the route which is surely not the way to go. I doubt if climbers such as Guy Robertson and his friends would have claimed this but it is of course for them to say as I do not climb at that grade.
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
And climbing the whole buttress ground-up twice within days is 'splitting it down to small enough sections'? (It's not like we're talking traversing or abseiling in.)
So maybe time to award the first ascent of Point Five Gully (a far more sectional affair!) to Smith and Marshall?
> No-one says it's not a great achievement but if you split routes down to small enough sections, almost anything can be climbed.
And climbing the whole buttress ground-up twice within days is 'splitting it down to small enough sections'? (It's not like we're talking traversing or abseiling in.)
> So even though UKC's moderators have accepted both (by default), the guidebook system has not. Over the years several other similar routes have not been accepted and this is no different.
So maybe time to award the first ascent of Point Five Gully (a far more sectional affair!) to Smith and Marshall?
In reply to petestack:
That has been debated, and the original ascent would not be accepted now. But it is felt that you can't rewrite history when it was accepted before.
> So maybe time to award the first ascent of Point Five Gully (a far more sectional affair!) to Smith and Marshall?
That has been debated, and the original ascent would not be accepted now. But it is felt that you can't rewrite history when it was accepted before.
In reply to petestack:
OK I jumped in a bit quick. I had been told they abseiled in. So what they did was a legitimate ascent of part of Satyr (times two), but not an ascent of Satyr. But they did climb bottom to top, so an acceptable ascent. What they decide to claim , we'll see. When Colin and I did The Needle, we didn't do the whole line and we called it Needle Variations. That was a rubbish name and it's been dropped.
OK I jumped in a bit quick. I had been told they abseiled in. So what they did was a legitimate ascent of part of Satyr (times two), but not an ascent of Satyr. But they did climb bottom to top, so an acceptable ascent. What they decide to claim , we'll see. When Colin and I did The Needle, we didn't do the whole line and we called it Needle Variations. That was a rubbish name and it's been dropped.
In reply to Conquistador of the usless:
I'm backing down, having put my foot in it slightly. As long as they claim what they did, and not an ascent of the summer line of Satyr.
I'm backing down, having put my foot in it slightly. As long as they claim what they did, and not an ascent of the summer line of Satyr.
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
I would say their line awaits a one day ascent, I'm sure Andy really pushed the boat out on that pitch, really quite an extraordinary lead that should not be dismissed in anyway.
I would say their line awaits a one day ascent, I'm sure Andy really pushed the boat out on that pitch, really quite an extraordinary lead that should not be dismissed in anyway.
In reply to UKC News: Nice one Andy, keep pushing the envelope mate...
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Am I not right in saying that Mort might have been claimed many years before Brian Davison climbed it, had it been considered permissible to do it in two pushes? I believe the first (?) pitch was too scary to do again!
Also, wasn't Central Buttress on Scafell done in two pushes - was that accepted?
> (In reply to petestack)
>
> So what they did was a legitimate ascent of part of Satyr (times two), but not an ascent of Satyr.
>
> So what they did was a legitimate ascent of part of Satyr (times two), but not an ascent of Satyr.
Am I not right in saying that Mort might have been claimed many years before Brian Davison climbed it, had it been considered permissible to do it in two pushes? I believe the first (?) pitch was too scary to do again!
Also, wasn't Central Buttress on Scafell done in two pushes - was that accepted?
In reply to UKC News: This is my first time to make a comment on this forum after years of biting my lip. Mike Andy and i had a fantastic adventure over a couple of days climbing the line of Satyr, we are not trying to claim the hardest route ever climbed in the world or are we trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes on the style of or ascent,all we are wanting to do is let people know about a fantastic adventure and a ace climb we completed. i find it totally amazing how people can not just say well done on your climb,it was in condion,no aid was used,it was lots of fun,it was what i climb for.i hope someone does it from the bottom to the top in one push and also has a great journey. Well done to my cimbing partner Mr Andy Nelson on climbing some very hard pitches onsight and getting back on after a 30 foot fall. Heres to more adventures in the future. Donald
In reply to Robert Durran:
Was the controversy not that they removed crampons for the layback which was bare, thus no winter ascent.
Was the controversy not that they removed crampons for the layback which was bare, thus no winter ascent.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Wasn't Central Buttress done the day after in rock boots and the chock stone since gone?- hence no route actually climbs it?
Wasn't Central Buttress done the day after in rock boots and the chock stone since gone?- hence no route actually climbs it?
In reply to Robert Durran:
Colin McLean climbed all the difficulties of Mort bar 10m in 1985. But he never though of anything but doing the whole route again, even though it was hard and serious. From the opposite side of the argument, I climbed a true finish to Threadbare, having escaped from the original, and Allen Fyffe refused to include it in the description for the Cairngorms guide because I traversed in. OK it was only IV,4 but I agree with it now.
Central Buttress was never accepted.
> (In reply to Andy Nisbet)
> [...]
>
> Am I not right in saying that Mort might have been claimed many years before Brian Davison climbed it, had it been considered permissible to do it in two pushes? I believe the first (?) pitch was too scary to do again!
> Also, wasn't Central Buttress on Scafell done in two pushes - was that accepted?
> [...]
>
> Am I not right in saying that Mort might have been claimed many years before Brian Davison climbed it, had it been considered permissible to do it in two pushes? I believe the first (?) pitch was too scary to do again!
> Also, wasn't Central Buttress on Scafell done in two pushes - was that accepted?
Colin McLean climbed all the difficulties of Mort bar 10m in 1985. But he never though of anything but doing the whole route again, even though it was hard and serious. From the opposite side of the argument, I climbed a true finish to Threadbare, having escaped from the original, and Allen Fyffe refused to include it in the description for the Cairngorms guide because I traversed in. OK it was only IV,4 but I agree with it now.
Central Buttress was never accepted.
In reply to Donald King: Well done Donald, don't take the forums to heart. You have been nothing but up front with what you did and how and when you did it to anyone who bothered to ask. 99.99% of people who read about this will just be going 'Wow, another amazing climb this winter what a cool adventure for the guys'. Good job and keep enjoying it (and the second pitch today was just as you said- a wee bitty interesting
Al
Al
In reply to Donald King:
Well said, Donald, and well done to you both again (glad you're not just OK after what we saw but came home smiling too)!
Well said, Donald, and well done to you both again (glad you're not just OK after what we saw but came home smiling too)!
In reply to Franco Cookson:
FFS i just explained, the flake was done in big boots.
Donald great to see an ascent like this, onsight in proper nick.
FFS i just explained, the flake was done in big boots.
Donald great to see an ascent like this, onsight in proper nick.
In reply to Donald King:
There's no criticism of you. You can enjoy what you like. The headline on UKC said Satyr FWA, and that's what my objection was about.
There's no criticism of you. You can enjoy what you like. The headline on UKC said Satyr FWA, and that's what my objection was about.
In reply to Conquistador of the usless: chill out. You hadn't posted your reply at the time of writing.
In reply to Andy Nisbet: Can we assume that whoever manages this tremendous route in one push will have to also leave an axe behind and finish the route with one axe, as Donald King did, for this to be a true first winter ascent. Maybe using two axes on the final pitch might be seen as aid!
In reply to fritzmf:
Mort took 15 years and several attempts, including falls up to 25m. The buzz fades and the disappointment starts. I think they might be back sooner than that.
Mort took 15 years and several attempts, including falls up to 25m. The buzz fades and the disappointment starts. I think they might be back sooner than that.
In reply to Andy Nisbet: Looks like they only took one rest, albeit overnight, and no aid. Historically this seems quite important particularly with regard to modern hard routes, with reference to the FWA of 'Unicorn'.
In reply to Donald King: In support of Mr King - to anyone who knows a little/ a tiny tiny bit of the guys involve this venture - it is just a great day out done by friends pushing themselves doing what they are extremely good at. Can we just say well done, great effort etc etc.
nothing has been damaged be it pride, mountain or person. leave it be and takes some positives from those that inspire the rest of us go out.
Nice one Donald and Andy - see ya some time
Alistair
nothing has been damaged be it pride, mountain or person. leave it be and takes some positives from those that inspire the rest of us go out.
Nice one Donald and Andy - see ya some time
Alistair
In reply to Donald King: Very well done, cool pictures! Enjoy the rest of the winter.
UKC needs to take a chill pill.
UKC needs to take a chill pill.
In reply to Donald King: well done on one of the obvious but hard targets in the coire, dont listen to Andy re ethics and acceptability of ascents
now when is that big feature to the right of Unicorn getting done?
now when is that big feature to the right of Unicorn getting done?
In reply to UKC News: I was in the coire today and a pair looked like they were on the route. It sounded like Donalds voice and he was calling his partner Andy. I hope they have gone back and made the FWA in one day ground up just to prove a point.
In reply to scott kirkhope: Yup, point proven!
In reply to ethical pedants: Put that in um pipe and smoke it!
In reply to UKC News:
I hope Donald and Andy did this again for their own reasons and not because of the prats on here?
Well done guys... awesome effort!!
I hope Donald and Andy did this again for their own reasons and not because of the prats on here?
Well done guys... awesome effort!!
In reply to Andy Nisbet: Sounds like it. My comment was more in the vein of being impressed that they went back and did it all together than a dig at those pointing out anything about the earlier style (hence smiley).
Al
Al
In reply to Donald King:
Nice one Donald, well said.
I've always stuck by the mantra that the best climber is the one having the most fun (though to be fair, it's the only way I'd every have a chance of being called 'the best')
Nice one Donald, well said.
I've always stuck by the mantra that the best climber is the one having the most fun (though to be fair, it's the only way I'd every have a chance of being called 'the best')
In reply to Edinburgh Mountain Film Festival: Ha Ha!! your festival really matters!!!! we all care about the EMFF!!! seriously we dooo!!
In reply to AlH: ethical pedants unite!! without ethics yer bankrupt mate
In reply to Erik B: I agree they are important Eric. I also know that Donald and Andy have srong ethics too. Its just a shame that sometimes people's response is to point out any negatives rather than say well done when they were completely open about the style of ascent. I reckon they have their heads screwed on. They care more about climbing than carping.
Anyway.... head pointed any ice over there yet?
Anyway.... head pointed any ice over there yet?
In reply to the thread:
We all know that the single-push, ground-up, no falls or rests ascent is the gold standard, and I'm delighted that Donald and Andy have now achieved this. They're two throughly likable individuals with a real passion for what they do, and I'm hopeful this wont be their only big shout this winter...
However, as winter grades ramp up in difficulty, it's inevitable that climbers will run up against stuff that just wont go in this style and which will require a degree of "working". Top-flight rock climbers realised this decades ago and have tangibly upped the game by accepting abseil inspection, yo-yoing, top-rope rehearsal, pre-placed gear, etc, etc, etc. OK, sometimes this has seemed a bit flawed but overall we've been pretty good about stating ethics (as Andy an Donald have), and it's created lots of challenges to streamline the performance, in much the same way as recent free/in-a-day ascents of the Needle (for example) have built on MacLean and Nisbet's original.
Look at something like Anubis. Is there a winter climber out there (save the FA) who has the strength, ability, tenacity, etc to flash it, ground-up it or even to place the gear!? Would it really be catastrophic if somebody abbed down it, pre-placed the gear and proceded to work it? Their journey, not yours. It's certainly going to better their climbing and make them better able to on-sight Satyr..
Or imagine a harder version of The Hurting with less gear (but an easily-accessed top-anchor). Why not stick a top-rope on-it and work it towards reality? This would be the norm on hard trad; where unsurvivable falls are concerned people want to control the odds a bit. I actually know one strong performer who has contemplated headpointing The Hurting, but is worried that they would get shot down in flames; this seems a bit limiting and discouraging of enterprise to me.
None of the above stick bolts (or in Dave's case even pegs) into the rock; as long as they are accompanied by complete honesty I dont see the problem. There will always be those for whom the ultimate goal is to do a big, hard, exploratory route like Marathon Corner completely on-sight, but I think the definition of a healthy scene would be to embrace different approaches and to learn from them.
We all know that the single-push, ground-up, no falls or rests ascent is the gold standard, and I'm delighted that Donald and Andy have now achieved this. They're two throughly likable individuals with a real passion for what they do, and I'm hopeful this wont be their only big shout this winter...
However, as winter grades ramp up in difficulty, it's inevitable that climbers will run up against stuff that just wont go in this style and which will require a degree of "working". Top-flight rock climbers realised this decades ago and have tangibly upped the game by accepting abseil inspection, yo-yoing, top-rope rehearsal, pre-placed gear, etc, etc, etc. OK, sometimes this has seemed a bit flawed but overall we've been pretty good about stating ethics (as Andy an Donald have), and it's created lots of challenges to streamline the performance, in much the same way as recent free/in-a-day ascents of the Needle (for example) have built on MacLean and Nisbet's original.
Look at something like Anubis. Is there a winter climber out there (save the FA) who has the strength, ability, tenacity, etc to flash it, ground-up it or even to place the gear!? Would it really be catastrophic if somebody abbed down it, pre-placed the gear and proceded to work it? Their journey, not yours. It's certainly going to better their climbing and make them better able to on-sight Satyr..
Or imagine a harder version of The Hurting with less gear (but an easily-accessed top-anchor). Why not stick a top-rope on-it and work it towards reality? This would be the norm on hard trad; where unsurvivable falls are concerned people want to control the odds a bit. I actually know one strong performer who has contemplated headpointing The Hurting, but is worried that they would get shot down in flames; this seems a bit limiting and discouraging of enterprise to me.
None of the above stick bolts (or in Dave's case even pegs) into the rock; as long as they are accompanied by complete honesty I dont see the problem. There will always be those for whom the ultimate goal is to do a big, hard, exploratory route like Marathon Corner completely on-sight, but I think the definition of a healthy scene would be to embrace different approaches and to learn from them.
In reply to Erik B:
In reply to Erik B:
Very good, Erik! :-P
> (In reply to Donald King) dont listen to Andy re ethics and acceptability of ascents
In reply to Erik B:
> (In reply to AlH) ethical pedants unite!! without ethics yer bankrupt mate
Very good, Erik! :-P
Good to see such determination from Donald and Andy! I don't think Andy Nisbet was being "pedantic" with regards to questioning Sunday's efforts though. The way I read it was that he was looking at it from the perspective of a New Routes Editor, so a "well done" probably didn't even occur to him.
Climbing is about progression, Donald and Andy have taken their initial attempts on Satyr and improved upon them. The route can still be improved upon with a completely on-sight ascent. And even then, if you want to take it to the extreme, an on-sight solo.
As long as routes are recorded exactly as how they were climbed (which was Andy Nisbet's point), then there shouldn't be a problem. Someone above mentioned the FWA of Point Five. Personally, I see Point Five as having several FWA's - the siege by Clough & partners, the one-day ascent by Marshall and Smith, and the solo by Nicolson. Or take The Tempest - Gresham, Turner and MacLeod all playing important roles in the route's history despite each climbing the route in a different style.
Donald and Andy have been completely transparent with their accounts of Satyr. It's only when climbers stop doing this that we should be concerned.
Climbing is about progression, Donald and Andy have taken their initial attempts on Satyr and improved upon them. The route can still be improved upon with a completely on-sight ascent. And even then, if you want to take it to the extreme, an on-sight solo.
As long as routes are recorded exactly as how they were climbed (which was Andy Nisbet's point), then there shouldn't be a problem. Someone above mentioned the FWA of Point Five. Personally, I see Point Five as having several FWA's - the siege by Clough & partners, the one-day ascent by Marshall and Smith, and the solo by Nicolson. Or take The Tempest - Gresham, Turner and MacLeod all playing important roles in the route's history despite each climbing the route in a different style.
Donald and Andy have been completely transparent with their accounts of Satyr. It's only when climbers stop doing this that we should be concerned.
In reply to Mike Pescod: styleish effort, now that takes balls to go back and do the nightmare pitches again to prove a point, well done andy and donald, thumbsup
Al,
Al,
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I'm not stoked for your vision of the future of winter climbing.
People have traveled from all over the world to go scottish mixed climbing. One of the main features they highlight as being attractive is the high level of ethics in position.
Ground up is fine, all about the falling off anf pushing yourself. Abeseiling down routes and doing stuff you've done in summer is a bit shakey and the idea of top roping things before a lead worries me. Imagine the state of a classic E5 after it's been top roped 100 times....
I'm not stoked for your vision of the future of winter climbing.
People have traveled from all over the world to go scottish mixed climbing. One of the main features they highlight as being attractive is the high level of ethics in position.
Ground up is fine, all about the falling off anf pushing yourself. Abeseiling down routes and doing stuff you've done in summer is a bit shakey and the idea of top roping things before a lead worries me. Imagine the state of a classic E5 after it's been top roped 100 times....
In reply to UKC News:
I'm fairly certain I got a photo of them yesterday on the route again, but I'm not certain. They were a few metres to the right of Central Grooves, and one of the climbers was called Donald, so I'm presuming it was them.
Here's the photo
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=161204
James
I'm fairly certain I got a photo of them yesterday on the route again, but I'm not certain. They were a few metres to the right of Central Grooves, and one of the climbers was called Donald, so I'm presuming it was them.
Here's the photo
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=161204
James
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I think your vision of the future is both dangerous and depressing. When the top climbers start headpointing XIII, 13, lesser mortals will follow their heroes and top rope some classic to death to get a VII,8 headpoint tick.
The result would be a great deal of wear on some classic summer lines, and likely a poisonous confrontation between winter and summer mountain climbers in Scotland: a situation which at present is, just, being avoided.
The strong ethic acts to preserve both our rock and our adventure.
I think your vision of the future is both dangerous and depressing. When the top climbers start headpointing XIII, 13, lesser mortals will follow their heroes and top rope some classic to death to get a VII,8 headpoint tick.
The result would be a great deal of wear on some classic summer lines, and likely a poisonous confrontation between winter and summer mountain climbers in Scotland: a situation which at present is, just, being avoided.
The strong ethic acts to preserve both our rock and our adventure.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Why would someone want to top-rope a route that didn't require a top-rope to make the first ascent? If a climber abseil inspects The Hurting before climbing it, then fair enough, it's in the same style as MacLeod's ascent, but to top-rope it would be a backwards step. If the climber is not willing to attempt the route without top-roping it, then that's fine - walk away and let someone else try.
Look at the progression already made on Satyr. For someone to come along now and abseil inspect the route, pre-place gear or use aid, would be ludicrous. However, if that had happened a week ago, then it would have been perfectly acceptable.
>
> Look at something like Anubis. Is there a winter climber out there (save the FA) who has the strength, ability, tenacity, etc to flash it, ground-up it or even to place the gear!? Would it really be catastrophic if somebody abbed down it, pre-placed the gear and proceded to work it? Their journey, not yours. It's certainly going to better their climbing and make them better able to on-sight Satyr..
>
Sure, there might not be a climber currently able to climb Anubis on-sight, but unless they can climb it in the same, or better, style as on the first ascent, then it should be left alone. Otherwise, climbing is going backwards.> Look at something like Anubis. Is there a winter climber out there (save the FA) who has the strength, ability, tenacity, etc to flash it, ground-up it or even to place the gear!? Would it really be catastrophic if somebody abbed down it, pre-placed the gear and proceded to work it? Their journey, not yours. It's certainly going to better their climbing and make them better able to on-sight Satyr..
>
> Or imagine a harder version of The Hurting with less gear (but an easily-accessed top-anchor). Why not stick a top-rope on-it and work it towards reality? This would be the norm on hard trad; where unsurvivable falls are concerned people want to control the odds a bit. I actually know one strong performer who has contemplated headpointing The Hurting, but is worried that they would get shot down in flames; this seems a bit limiting and discouraging of enterprise to me.
>Why would someone want to top-rope a route that didn't require a top-rope to make the first ascent? If a climber abseil inspects The Hurting before climbing it, then fair enough, it's in the same style as MacLeod's ascent, but to top-rope it would be a backwards step. If the climber is not willing to attempt the route without top-roping it, then that's fine - walk away and let someone else try.
Look at the progression already made on Satyr. For someone to come along now and abseil inspect the route, pre-place gear or use aid, would be ludicrous. However, if that had happened a week ago, then it would have been perfectly acceptable.
In reply to Erik B:
"now that takes balls to go back and do the nightmare pitches again to prove a point"
A large proportion hard first winter ascents require the hard / serious bits to be climbed again (and, in some cases, again). Pete Mac had to lead the crux pitch of Super Rat three times on three separate days last season. It's got nothing to do with making a point, but everything to do with claiming a valid ascent. I would hazard a guess Andy and Donald weren't "making a point" so much as completing some unfinished business. It's just a shame UKC promoted the ascent before it ocurred. Maybe all those boulderers who have done all the moves on their new problem but can't yet complete the link should start sending in their "first ascent" details??
"now that takes balls to go back and do the nightmare pitches again to prove a point"
A large proportion hard first winter ascents require the hard / serious bits to be climbed again (and, in some cases, again). Pete Mac had to lead the crux pitch of Super Rat three times on three separate days last season. It's got nothing to do with making a point, but everything to do with claiming a valid ascent. I would hazard a guess Andy and Donald weren't "making a point" so much as completing some unfinished business. It's just a shame UKC promoted the ascent before it ocurred. Maybe all those boulderers who have done all the moves on their new problem but can't yet complete the link should start sending in their "first ascent" details??
In reply to Tom Knowles: the style of the fwa of satyr isnt a new phenomenon, eg purble blaze in arrochar. best if we avoid this 'manufacturing' style of ascent and do it in a single push. however, andy and donald where honest and went back to do it in a single push to make ammends so fair dooze I guess and scotland is richer with another new IX
I'm hearing BIG news from arrochar by the way, arguably the most important new winter route in arrochar for decades. looking like a pivotal winter allready..
I'm hearing BIG news from arrochar by the way, arguably the most important new winter route in arrochar for decades. looking like a pivotal winter allready..
In reply to Wry Gob: ok, ill rephrase that "to prove a point to themselves" welcome to the digital age of instant news
In reply to Donald King: Hi Donald don't know if you remember me from years ago at Ardroy!? We went and did some climb at Glen Croe one evening. Anyway, I just want to say nice one on a nails climb! Didn't know you were still climbing so hard! Sounds epic!
It makes me angry seeing all these stupid comments. Many people on here are doing well to maintain the "C*cktalk", rather than "Rocktalk" reputation of these forums.
It makes me angry seeing all these stupid comments. Many people on here are doing well to maintain the "C*cktalk", rather than "Rocktalk" reputation of these forums.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Yes, Donald and Andy have set the Gold standard ethically. Spot the line, climb it, no abseil inspections, checking out in summer (placing pegs at the tricky bits), yo-yoing, pre-placing, rests etc, etc, etc, blah, blah blah............
Now this could well be the time for all those dubious ethical practices (If there have been any, of course) that have helped achieve 'FWAs' in the past to be aired! Go on, your big chance to come clean, now is the time to clear your conscience, unburden yourselves! Just a thought.
Now this could well be the time for all those dubious ethical practices (If there have been any, of course) that have helped achieve 'FWAs' in the past to be aired! Go on, your big chance to come clean, now is the time to clear your conscience, unburden yourselves! Just a thought.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I'm afraid climbers will just have to get better rather than resorting to bringing the routes down to their own level. This is not as unlikely as you may think however. Climbers such as Andy Turner and Tony Stone are now getting good enough that repeating (some of) MacLeod's routes has become a viable proposition.
> (In reply to the thread)
>
> Look at something like Anubis. Is there a winter climber out there (save the FA) who has the strength, ability, tenacity, etc to flash it, ground-up it or even to place the gear!? Would it really be catastrophic if somebody abbed down it, pre-placed the gear and proceded to work it? Their journey, not yours. It's certainly going to better their climbing and make them better able to on-sight Satyr..
>
> Or imagine a harder version of The Hurting with less gear (but an easily-accessed top-anchor). Why not stick a top-rope on-it and work it towards reality? This would be the norm on hard trad; where unsurvivable falls are concerned people want to control the odds a bit. I actually know one strong performer who has contemplated headpointing The Hurting, but is worried that they would get shot down in flames; this seems a bit limiting and discouraging of enterprise to me.
>
>
> Look at something like Anubis. Is there a winter climber out there (save the FA) who has the strength, ability, tenacity, etc to flash it, ground-up it or even to place the gear!? Would it really be catastrophic if somebody abbed down it, pre-placed the gear and proceded to work it? Their journey, not yours. It's certainly going to better their climbing and make them better able to on-sight Satyr..
>
> Or imagine a harder version of The Hurting with less gear (but an easily-accessed top-anchor). Why not stick a top-rope on-it and work it towards reality? This would be the norm on hard trad; where unsurvivable falls are concerned people want to control the odds a bit. I actually know one strong performer who has contemplated headpointing The Hurting, but is worried that they would get shot down in flames; this seems a bit limiting and discouraging of enterprise to me.
>
I'm afraid climbers will just have to get better rather than resorting to bringing the routes down to their own level. This is not as unlikely as you may think however. Climbers such as Andy Turner and Tony Stone are now getting good enough that repeating (some of) MacLeod's routes has become a viable proposition.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I think that outlook is fairly blinkered considering what has been achieved in recent years. I'm sure very few of us even entertained the idea that Anubis could have been possible before MacLeod climbed it.
> (In reply to the thread)
>
> However, as winter grades ramp up in difficulty, it's inevitable that climbers will run up against stuff that just wont go in this style and which will require a degree of "working".
>
> However, as winter grades ramp up in difficulty, it's inevitable that climbers will run up against stuff that just wont go in this style and which will require a degree of "working".
I think that outlook is fairly blinkered considering what has been achieved in recent years. I'm sure very few of us even entertained the idea that Anubis could have been possible before MacLeod climbed it.
In reply to Donald King: That's more like the spirit of things Donald; do it for fun and forget all the serious headed picky crap - too much of that here !
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