This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
In response to the proliferation of this sort of thing:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=474544,
I entirely fictitiously, in order to test the water (quite hot, it seems) posted this:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=475274
(Amusingly, someone, in good faith, even tried to claim the fictitious gear.)
So, is the time honoured tradition of “win some/lose some” crag booty dying as the result of the UKC Lost and Found Forum and suchlike?
Is the satisfaction of wiggling out an abandoned jammed nut to be replaced by the guilt of thievery?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=474544,
I entirely fictitiously, in order to test the water (quite hot, it seems) posted this:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=475274
(Amusingly, someone, in good faith, even tried to claim the fictitious gear.)
So, is the time honoured tradition of “win some/lose some” crag booty dying as the result of the UKC Lost and Found Forum and suchlike?
Is the satisfaction of wiggling out an abandoned jammed nut to be replaced by the guilt of thievery?
In reply to Robert Durran:
Not in these parts it isn't
Nope.
> So, is the time honoured tradition of “win some/lose some” crag booty dying as the result of the UKC Lost and Found Forum and suchlike?
Not in these parts it isn't
> Is the satisfaction of wiggling out an abandoned jammed nut to be replaced by the guilt of thievery?
Nope.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Its like golf Robert.
If you find a ball in the rough then you get to keep it.
If you pinch one off the green when someone isn't looking then you're a scamp.
Do you play golf? They wear nice jumpers.
Its like golf Robert.
If you find a ball in the rough then you get to keep it.
If you pinch one off the green when someone isn't looking then you're a scamp.
Do you play golf? They wear nice jumpers.
In reply to hexcentric:
I like your analogy. Seems fair to me.
So golfers don't post stuff on golf websites liike "I found a ball about 5 metres SW of the fourth oak tree on the left side of the 13th fairway. Please get in touch if it is yours and I shall mail it to you"
No I don't. I don't wear nice clothes of any kind.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> Its like golf Robert.
> If you find a ball in the rough then you get to keep it.
> If you pinch one off the green when someone isn't looking then you're a scamp.
> Its like golf Robert.
> If you find a ball in the rough then you get to keep it.
> If you pinch one off the green when someone isn't looking then you're a scamp.
I like your analogy. Seems fair to me.
So golfers don't post stuff on golf websites liike "I found a ball about 5 metres SW of the fourth oak tree on the left side of the 13th fairway. Please get in touch if it is yours and I shall mail it to you"
> Do you play golf? They wear nice jumpers.
No I don't. I don't wear nice clothes of any kind.
In reply to Robert Durran:
This year I've both gained crag booty and left some - small wires in both cases - it's just part of climbing. If I came across a large amount of kit, let's say a rack of Friends, then I'd post something suitable on here and try and return it. Also I wouldn't remove sets of quickdraws from sports routes where it's fairly well accepted that gear gets left between attempts.
A bit of common sense really, though it seems to be sadly lacking these days.
ALC
This year I've both gained crag booty and left some - small wires in both cases - it's just part of climbing. If I came across a large amount of kit, let's say a rack of Friends, then I'd post something suitable on here and try and return it. Also I wouldn't remove sets of quickdraws from sports routes where it's fairly well accepted that gear gets left between attempts.
A bit of common sense really, though it seems to be sadly lacking these days.
ALC
In reply to a lakeland climber: Some offers to return gear will have rquired more postage than the cost of the gear itself!
In reply to Robert Durran:
I've always assumed that the distinction is between 'abandoned' - ie stuck in or left behind in retreat - which is fair game, and 'lost' - ie left around at the base of the crag or whatever - which you should make some effort to repatriate. Although if the 'lost' gear is something like a number 3 wallnut I'd probably just keep it...
I've always assumed that the distinction is between 'abandoned' - ie stuck in or left behind in retreat - which is fair game, and 'lost' - ie left around at the base of the crag or whatever - which you should make some effort to repatriate. Although if the 'lost' gear is something like a number 3 wallnut I'd probably just keep it...
In reply to Ramblin dave:
I'm with you on this one. Leave it behind deliberately because of retreat / ab or inability to get it out then you loose it. The only exception to this rule is leaving biners in sports routes whilst you are working it and to be honest I think you are a bit niave if you 100% think they will be there when you return.
Other gear which is unintentionally lost, if found an attempt to find the owner should be made.
I'm with you on this one. Leave it behind deliberately because of retreat / ab or inability to get it out then you loose it. The only exception to this rule is leaving biners in sports routes whilst you are working it and to be honest I think you are a bit niave if you 100% think they will be there when you return.
Other gear which is unintentionally lost, if found an attempt to find the owner should be made.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Yes, I sgree entirely.
Though if the person who had abandoned the gear was still at the crag, when I retrieved it or if I knew them personally, I wouldn't exercise my right to the gear.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> I've always assumed that the distinction is between 'abandoned' - ie stuck in or left behind in retreat - which is fair game, and 'lost' - ie left around at the base of the crag or whatever - which you should make some effort to repatriate.
> I've always assumed that the distinction is between 'abandoned' - ie stuck in or left behind in retreat - which is fair game, and 'lost' - ie left around at the base of the crag or whatever - which you should make some effort to repatriate.
Yes, I sgree entirely.
Though if the person who had abandoned the gear was still at the crag, when I retrieved it or if I knew them personally, I wouldn't exercise my right to the gear.
In reply to Robert Durran:
If you didn't pay for it then it's not yours.
Just becasue the owner - who did use their hard earned cash to buy said item - isn't in the vicinity does not give you the right to pocket it and regard it as your own.
If you didn't pay for it then it's not yours.
Just becasue the owner - who did use their hard earned cash to buy said item - isn't in the vicinity does not give you the right to pocket it and regard it as your own.
In reply to Robert Durran:
So you don't mind thieving off someone you don't know, but would feel bad about thieving off someone you do? Somewhat elestic morality there Sir.
> (In reply to Ramblin dave)
> [...]
>
> Yes, I sgree entirely.
> Though if the person who had abandoned the gear was still at the crag, when I retrieved it or if I knew them personally, I wouldn't exercise my right to the gear.
> [...]
>
> Yes, I sgree entirely.
> Though if the person who had abandoned the gear was still at the crag, when I retrieved it or if I knew them personally, I wouldn't exercise my right to the gear.
So you don't mind thieving off someone you don't know, but would feel bad about thieving off someone you do? Somewhat elestic morality there Sir.
In reply to Robert Durran: possession is 9/10ths and all that!
In reply to John_Hat:
I think you can argue that if you knowingly abandon bits of gear then it ceases to be in your ownership and its finders keepers.
The tradition of crag booty has been around long before the internet and the UKC Lost and Found Forum when it was usually completely impractical to reunite abandoned gear with its original owner. Part of my point is to ask whether that tradition should now change because of the internet. Personally, I think it would be a shame if it did. Things generally even out anyway and it avoids the hassle of advertising and returning it.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> If you didn't pay for it then it's not yours.
>
> If you didn't pay for it then it's not yours.
I think you can argue that if you knowingly abandon bits of gear then it ceases to be in your ownership and its finders keepers.
> Just becasue the owner - who did use their hard earned cash to buy said item - isn't in the vicinity does not give you the right to pocket it and regard it as your own.
The tradition of crag booty has been around long before the internet and the UKC Lost and Found Forum when it was usually completely impractical to reunite abandoned gear with its original owner. Part of my point is to ask whether that tradition should now change because of the internet. Personally, I think it would be a shame if it did. Things generally even out anyway and it avoids the hassle of advertising and returning it.
In reply to John_Hat:
You are making the assumption that it is theft and I would contest that.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> So you don't mind thieving off someone you don't know, but would feel bad about thieving off someone you do? Somewhat elestic morality there Sir.
> So you don't mind thieving off someone you don't know, but would feel bad about thieving off someone you do? Somewhat elestic morality there Sir.
You are making the assumption that it is theft and I would contest that.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Theft by finding perhaps?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_by_finding
(for the record i think i'd probably keep anything worth less than a tenner or so, and and attempt to reunite anything worth any more)
Theft by finding perhaps?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_by_finding
(for the record i think i'd probably keep anything worth less than a tenner or so, and and attempt to reunite anything worth any more)
In reply to snaresman:
"Theft by finding occurs when someone who chances upon an object which seems abandoned takes possession of the object but fails to take steps to establish whether the object is abandoned and not merely lost or unattended."
So this seems to back up my position; stuck wires and abseil anchors are CLEARLY abandoned, so it is NOT theft by finding, whereas a bunch of gear at the foot of a crag is probably lost or quickdraws left on a sports route are probably unattended so would be theft by finding.
Having said that, I once drove about 80 miles to attempt a particular trad route, only to find it festooned with clearly unattended gear. It rather spoilt my day. Theft was tempting.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Theft by finding perhaps?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_by_finding
>
> Theft by finding perhaps?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_by_finding
"Theft by finding occurs when someone who chances upon an object which seems abandoned takes possession of the object but fails to take steps to establish whether the object is abandoned and not merely lost or unattended."
So this seems to back up my position; stuck wires and abseil anchors are CLEARLY abandoned, so it is NOT theft by finding, whereas a bunch of gear at the foot of a crag is probably lost or quickdraws left on a sports route are probably unattended so would be theft by finding.
Having said that, I once drove about 80 miles to attempt a particular trad route, only to find it festooned with clearly unattended gear. It rather spoilt my day. Theft was tempting.
In reply to Robert Durran:
I agree, though I would probably be inclined to try to return gear anyway. Partly because its so easy to stick a post up here about it, but mostly because I've been a bit of a gear freak with a reasonable disposable income for some time now and really don't need any more gear. ;O)
In your fictional example (and quality troll) I think the quickdraws being left as well would make me wonder if someone had been hurt. Out of interest, would anybody regard gear as 'crag swag' if its been left behind by someone carted away on a stretcher?
> Part of my point is to ask whether that tradition should now change because of the internet. Personally, I think it would be a shame if it did.
I agree, though I would probably be inclined to try to return gear anyway. Partly because its so easy to stick a post up here about it, but mostly because I've been a bit of a gear freak with a reasonable disposable income for some time now and really don't need any more gear. ;O)
In your fictional example (and quality troll) I think the quickdraws being left as well would make me wonder if someone had been hurt. Out of interest, would anybody regard gear as 'crag swag' if its been left behind by someone carted away on a stretcher?
In reply to deepsoup:
I quite deliberately included the quickdraws to make it more of a grey area!
If I knew there had been an accident, I probably would try to return the gear. Again, it comes down to what I would have done pre-internet forums.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> In your fictional example (and quality troll) I think the quickdraws being left as well would make me wonder if someone had been hurt. Out of interest, would anybody regard gear as 'crag swag' if its been left behind by someone carted away on a stretcher?
> In your fictional example (and quality troll) I think the quickdraws being left as well would make me wonder if someone had been hurt. Out of interest, would anybody regard gear as 'crag swag' if its been left behind by someone carted away on a stretcher?
I quite deliberately included the quickdraws to make it more of a grey area!
If I knew there had been an accident, I probably would try to return the gear. Again, it comes down to what I would have done pre-internet forums.
In reply to Robert Durran:
If the draws are on the gear, or some screwgates, i'd assume they have retreated and would attempt to return the gear.
I have too much anyway.
Cheers
Mark
If the draws are on the gear, or some screwgates, i'd assume they have retreated and would attempt to return the gear.
I have too much anyway.
Cheers
Mark
In reply to Mark Westerman:
Anyone retreating would presumably try to lose as little as possible, so would use single snaplinks, not quickdraws or screwgates. All fair game anyway.....
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> If the draws are on the gear, or some screwgates, i'd assume they have retreated and would attempt to return the gear.
> If the draws are on the gear, or some screwgates, i'd assume they have retreated and would attempt to return the gear.
Anyone retreating would presumably try to lose as little as possible, so would use single snaplinks, not quickdraws or screwgates. All fair game anyway.....
In reply to Robert Durran:
Robert.
'Back in the day' (i.e. pre-UKC and when the world was still warm) did folk take abandoned Moacs to the police station? Did fumble-fingered 1970s seconds put up posters 'Missing, one saddlewedge. Answers to Barney'. No.
In fact from what I can gather, these pre-histrionic men would often actively steal each others gear.
Robert.
'Back in the day' (i.e. pre-UKC and when the world was still warm) did folk take abandoned Moacs to the police station? Did fumble-fingered 1970s seconds put up posters 'Missing, one saddlewedge. Answers to Barney'. No.
In fact from what I can gather, these pre-histrionic men would often actively steal each others gear.
In reply to Robert Durran: maybe if its just a stuck nut or 2 you should post them the nut tool you used to get it out instead of the nut and buy a new nut tool. just to teach them a lesson.
In reply to deepsoup:
Out of interest, would anybody regard gear as 'crag swag' if its been left behind by someone carted away on a stretcher?
Well, if they were dead, they wouldn't be needing the gear again anyway......
Out of interest, would anybody regard gear as 'crag swag' if its been left behind by someone carted away on a stretcher?
Well, if they were dead, they wouldn't be needing the gear again anyway......
In reply to Robert Durran:
Judging from the cams conspicuously abandoned in the last two routes I've done on grit, there isn't enough effort to claim swag. Maybe we're all getting too affluent.
Judging from the cams conspicuously abandoned in the last two routes I've done on grit, there isn't enough effort to claim swag. Maybe we're all getting too affluent.
In reply to hexcentric:
I supect that some of my "friends" are still at it - I seem to need a net gain from crag booty just to maintain a full set of wires.
> In fact from what I can gather, these pre-histrionic men would often actively steal each others gear.
I supect that some of my "friends" are still at it - I seem to need a net gain from crag booty just to maintain a full set of wires.
In reply to Robert Durran:
I managed to loose a load of gear recently, most of which was clearly marked with contact emails/phone number of my partner. see:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=472897&v=1#x6545245
unfortunately the person who found this gear climber or member of the public has made no effort to contact myself or Becky given would be very apparent who it belongs to. I do consider this theft. and the above link is interesting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_by_finding )
In in this case how would the person in possession of our gear feel if they lost their wallet, with their driving licence inside and a load of cash? But person who found the wallet knowing who it belonged to still pocketed the money. I see no difference!
This is vastly different to removing a single stuck wire in a crag.
Graeme
I managed to loose a load of gear recently, most of which was clearly marked with contact emails/phone number of my partner. see:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=472897&v=1#x6545245
unfortunately the person who found this gear climber or member of the public has made no effort to contact myself or Becky given would be very apparent who it belongs to. I do consider this theft. and the above link is interesting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_by_finding )
In in this case how would the person in possession of our gear feel if they lost their wallet, with their driving licence inside and a load of cash? But person who found the wallet knowing who it belonged to still pocketed the money. I see no difference!
This is vastly different to removing a single stuck wire in a crag.
Graeme
In reply to Robert Durran:
How dare you! That gears the rightful possession of the second, and I have the t-shirt to prove it
http://tinyurl.com/3v6e5ma
> (In reply to deepsoup)
> Well, if they were dead, they wouldn't be needing the gear again anyway......
How dare you! That gears the rightful possession of the second, and I have the t-shirt to prove it
http://tinyurl.com/3v6e5ma
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
Agreed. This is clearly lost, not abandoned,and should be returned.
> I managed to lose a load of gear recently..... This is vastly different to removing a single stuck wire in a crag.
Agreed. This is clearly lost, not abandoned,and should be returned.
In reply to Robert Durran:
For me found gear falls in 3 categories:
legit swag (a single nut, a krab, a quickdraw etc.)
Post it up on here, possibly ask around at the crag. Make a reasonable effort to locate the owner (couple of nuts and a sling, cams etc.)
Make every possible effort to return it. Ask around at the crag, leave a note in the car park, perhaps even talk to the police if its very valuable. (large portions of rack, ropes etc.)
Basically just common sense and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Something that really pisses me off is people retrieving gear then refusing to give it back when confronted by the owners. its just not cricket!
For me found gear falls in 3 categories:
legit swag (a single nut, a krab, a quickdraw etc.)
Post it up on here, possibly ask around at the crag. Make a reasonable effort to locate the owner (couple of nuts and a sling, cams etc.)
Make every possible effort to return it. Ask around at the crag, leave a note in the car park, perhaps even talk to the police if its very valuable. (large portions of rack, ropes etc.)
Basically just common sense and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Something that really pisses me off is people retrieving gear then refusing to give it back when confronted by the owners. its just not cricket!
In reply to remus:
But what happens if you loose a crag or more precisely a pinnacle? See the Tegness Pinnacle forum................!
But what happens if you loose a crag or more precisely a pinnacle? See the Tegness Pinnacle forum................!
In reply to remus:
That would then be theft, but if I read that wiki corectly. If you found some gear and then preceded to ask the other climbers if it was theirs. You would not have the mens rea, and would be ok to keep said gear? Unless were talking large parts of a rack/ropes?
That would then be theft, but if I read that wiki corectly. If you found some gear and then preceded to ask the other climbers if it was theirs. You would not have the mens rea, and would be ok to keep said gear? Unless were talking large parts of a rack/ropes?
In reply to Robert Durran: I have half a rack of found/wiggled out DMM nuts. These I do not advertise on UKC. If I found a cam or ice screw I would advertise it.
In reply to Robert Durran:
God the idiocy of people on this forum never ceases to amaze me. A lot of the fkcutards on here I would not touch with a bargepole.
If you abandon it, by leaving it IN the crag and then actually leaving the crag the kit is fair game.
I agree there seems to be more money than sense though jusging by cams I have retrieved with about 30 seconds work on short grit routes...
God the idiocy of people on this forum never ceases to amaze me. A lot of the fkcutards on here I would not touch with a bargepole.
If you abandon it, by leaving it IN the crag and then actually leaving the crag the kit is fair game.
I agree there seems to be more money than sense though jusging by cams I have retrieved with about 30 seconds work on short grit routes...
In reply to Removed User:
The difficulty there is that you dont know why the gear was left. its true that a lot of gear is left due to incompetence, but then incompetence can look a lot like an experienced party bailing hastily because they had a bad accident (for example.)
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> If you abandon it, by leaving it IN the crag and then actually leaving the crag the kit is fair game.
> If you abandon it, by leaving it IN the crag and then actually leaving the crag the kit is fair game.
The difficulty there is that you dont know why the gear was left. its true that a lot of gear is left due to incompetence, but then incompetence can look a lot like an experienced party bailing hastily because they had a bad accident (for example.)
In reply to remus:
Well a single piece of gear high on a route with the quickdraw removed? Unlikely an accident. Common sense and decency is all that is required here.
The idiots on threads like this crying theft are utterly clueless of tradition.
Well a single piece of gear high on a route with the quickdraw removed? Unlikely an accident. Common sense and decency is all that is required here.
The idiots on threads like this crying theft are utterly clueless of tradition.
In reply to Removed User: i agree entirely.
In reply to Removed User:
+1
It's definitely swings and roundabouts. If I lose a cam because I don't extend it properly then run out of time to retrieve it, it's swag for the taking.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=471991&v=1#x6530562
+1
It's definitely swings and roundabouts. If I lose a cam because I don't extend it properly then run out of time to retrieve it, it's swag for the taking.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=471991&v=1#x6530562
In reply to Graeme Hammond: You probably didn't like your gear that much. Probably a good exercise to go and buy some stuff that you really like so you don't leave it on the floor.
In reply to Graeme Hammond: I once found a tenner on the floor as a fourth former.
Being an upstanding citizen i stood up and said, did anybody drop this? Some sixth former said, yeh its mine! and took it off me. Now whos the idiot there.
wallets are different, but also, do you REALLY like your wallet if you loose it. probably want a fancy new one if you choose to throw it on the floor...
Being an upstanding citizen i stood up and said, did anybody drop this? Some sixth former said, yeh its mine! and took it off me. Now whos the idiot there.
wallets are different, but also, do you REALLY like your wallet if you loose it. probably want a fancy new one if you choose to throw it on the floor...
In reply to Robert Durran: I just get a warmer, fuzzier feeling inside by returning an item of kit to its original owner(especially if someone has left it behind in order to retreat and think they will never see it again because the next ascentionist will have taken it for themselves), than I do from using a free bit of swag that I don't know the history of.
In reply to Robert Durran: really, the only grey area is when a piece has been abandoned as stuck and then someone liberates it whilst the original owner is still at the crag. should always be up to the original owner whether they want it back or not in this case.
anything else is kind of obvious - and anyone who doesn't appreciate how much nicer having a rack put together this way rather than buying it all has no soul. it is great having a rack where looking at a piece brings back a memory of the route it came from.
if i came back a few days after abandoning a piece as stuck and it had been removed i'd just be happy that the gear was in use again.
anything else is kind of obvious - and anyone who doesn't appreciate how much nicer having a rack put together this way rather than buying it all has no soul. it is great having a rack where looking at a piece brings back a memory of the route it came from.
if i came back a few days after abandoning a piece as stuck and it had been removed i'd just be happy that the gear was in use again.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
+1
If the original owner is still at the crag of course I'll hand it back (but expect them to be suitably sheepish & grateful). If there'd obviously been a big accident again I'd make efforts to return it (as per Rob above).
Quickdraws on sport routes are a bit different as there are many places where it's customary to leave them in.
One of the perks of living in the Lakes (where I spent most of the 90s) was cragging on Monday evenings & retrieving all the stuck gear left behind by the weekenders...
> the distinction is between 'abandoned' - ie stuck in or left behind in retreat - which is fair game, and 'lost' - ie left around at the base of the crag
+1
If the original owner is still at the crag of course I'll hand it back (but expect them to be suitably sheepish & grateful). If there'd obviously been a big accident again I'd make efforts to return it (as per Rob above).
Quickdraws on sport routes are a bit different as there are many places where it's customary to leave them in.
One of the perks of living in the Lakes (where I spent most of the 90s) was cragging on Monday evenings & retrieving all the stuck gear left behind by the weekenders...
In reply to Robert Durran:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=180649 - This headband's nice
This year I have got a BD Microwire, Screwgate, Sling, Krab and a Prussik loop
This year I have lost 2 #12 wires, (neither of which belonged to me, and one of these was thrown in the sea!) 2 quickdraws (one thrown in the sea and one down the verdon gorge) and a krab.
I think I'm about even.
> No I don't. I don't wear nice clothes of any kind.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=180649 - This headband's nice
This year I have got a BD Microwire, Screwgate, Sling, Krab and a Prussik loop
This year I have lost 2 #12 wires, (neither of which belonged to me, and one of these was thrown in the sea!) 2 quickdraws (one thrown in the sea and one down the verdon gorge) and a krab.
I think I'm about even.
In reply to John_Hat and the others who consider any removal of gear theft:
Stuck wires and cams corrode rapidly, especially in sea air, and become eyesores and can permanently block good placements. It is a public service to remove stuck gear. Reuniting them with their owner is a separate issue.
Fixed quickdraws may be acceptable in some climbing cultures but not in the UK and their use is increasingly recognised as a potential to cause access issues. There has been a useful thread on ukb about this and consequent removal of fixed draws on Raven Tor.
Stuck wires and cams corrode rapidly, especially in sea air, and become eyesores and can permanently block good placements. It is a public service to remove stuck gear. Reuniting them with their owner is a separate issue.
Fixed quickdraws may be acceptable in some climbing cultures but not in the UK and their use is increasingly recognised as a potential to cause access issues. There has been a useful thread on ukb about this and consequent removal of fixed draws on Raven Tor.
In reply to Robert Durran:
I would have climbed the route, cleaned the gear, bundled it up and if the owners returned for the gear before the day was out hand it over. If they didn't turn up, it would be mine. That allows for accidents, illness but not oversight, laziness or ineptitude.
> (In reply to snaresman)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
>
> Having said that, I once drove about 80 miles to attempt a particular trad route, only to find it festooned with clearly unattended gear. It rather spoilt my day. Theft was tempting.
> Having said that, I once drove about 80 miles to attempt a particular trad route, only to find it festooned with clearly unattended gear. It rather spoilt my day. Theft was tempting.
I would have climbed the route, cleaned the gear, bundled it up and if the owners returned for the gear before the day was out hand it over. If they didn't turn up, it would be mine. That allows for accidents, illness but not oversight, laziness or ineptitude.
In reply to metal arms:
Ok. It's my one concession to style and fashion.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=180649 - This headband's nice.
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=180649 - This headband's nice.
Ok. It's my one concession to style and fashion.
In reply to unclesamsauntibess:
The route was Chemin de fer at Dumbarton. The gear had clearly been left in situ for headpointing the E8 or E9 which climbs this before heading out right, so the owner was probably a formidable beast well capable of beating me to a pulp if they had turned up. I really wanted to onsight the route, so would have had to get my partner to abseil down and strip it first. I wasn't going to nick the gear (not least because there was a film crew and Steve McClure on Rhapsody, so I might have been caught on film) so I would either have had to replace it all afterwards (not terribly practicable) or leave it at the bottom, in which case, this being Dumbarton, someone else would probably have nicked it anyway!
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> I would have climbed the route, cleaned the gear, bundled it up and if the owners returned for the gear before the day was out hand it over. If they didn't turn up, it would be mine.
> I would have climbed the route, cleaned the gear, bundled it up and if the owners returned for the gear before the day was out hand it over. If they didn't turn up, it would be mine.
The route was Chemin de fer at Dumbarton. The gear had clearly been left in situ for headpointing the E8 or E9 which climbs this before heading out right, so the owner was probably a formidable beast well capable of beating me to a pulp if they had turned up. I really wanted to onsight the route, so would have had to get my partner to abseil down and strip it first. I wasn't going to nick the gear (not least because there was a film crew and Steve McClure on Rhapsody, so I might have been caught on film) so I would either have had to replace it all afterwards (not terribly practicable) or leave it at the bottom, in which case, this being Dumbarton, someone else would probably have nicked it anyway!
In reply to Robert Durran:
I once had someone steal some gear from a route that I was on: I was at Wilton with a beginner and we had climbed the route and walked off to do it again, leaving the belay at the top for my partner to clip into after he'd led the route (his first lead).
He couldn't find the gear at the top, and as we were at the bottom all the time we knew the only pair who'd walked past the top of our climb. I went immediately to ask for it back but they looked a bit awkward and denied seeing any gear. So to make myself feel better I glared at them for the rest of the evening, hoping they got bitten by midges and fell off their next route (not to their death, but to look silly in front of potential girlfriends or some such).
Still not calmed down about it all these years later
I once had someone steal some gear from a route that I was on: I was at Wilton with a beginner and we had climbed the route and walked off to do it again, leaving the belay at the top for my partner to clip into after he'd led the route (his first lead).
He couldn't find the gear at the top, and as we were at the bottom all the time we knew the only pair who'd walked past the top of our climb. I went immediately to ask for it back but they looked a bit awkward and denied seeing any gear. So to make myself feel better I glared at them for the rest of the evening, hoping they got bitten by midges and fell off their next route (not to their death, but to look silly in front of potential girlfriends or some such).
Still not calmed down about it all these years later
In reply to flaneur:
I may be being very dense here but why are people on UK Bouldering overly worried about quickdraws?
> (In reply to John_Hat and the others who consider any removal of gear
>
> Fixed quickdraws may be acceptable in some climbing cultures but not in the UK and their use is increasingly recognised as a potential to cause access issues. There has been a useful thread on ukb about this and consequent removal of fixed draws on Raven Tor.
>
> Fixed quickdraws may be acceptable in some climbing cultures but not in the UK and their use is increasingly recognised as a potential to cause access issues. There has been a useful thread on ukb about this and consequent removal of fixed draws on Raven Tor.
I may be being very dense here but why are people on UK Bouldering overly worried about quickdraws?
In reply to Oceanrower:
UKBouldering is not just about bouldering in the same way as UKC is not about climbing hardly ever...
UKBouldering is not just about bouldering in the same way as UKC is not about climbing hardly ever...
In reply to Oceanrower:
cos most the climbers on here are punters and most the good sport climbers also boulder.
cos most the climbers on here are punters and most the good sport climbers also boulder.
In reply to CurlyStevo: Ok. It's not one I follow. Do they argue as much over there?
In reply to Oceanrower:
I think they mainly laugh at us no?
I think they mainly laugh at us no?
In reply to Robert Durran:
How else would you describe removing something from where the owner left it with the firm intent of permanently depriving them of posession?
> (In reply to John_Hat)
> [...]
>
> You are making the assumption that it is theft and I would contest that.
> [...]
>
> You are making the assumption that it is theft and I would contest that.
How else would you describe removing something from where the owner left it with the firm intent of permanently depriving them of posession?
In reply to Robert Durran:
Shame. You beat me to it Bob.
> No I don't. I don't wear nice clothes of any kind.
Shame. You beat me to it Bob.
In reply to John_Hat:
What if they had no intention of coming back for it within a reasonable time frame, surely most people would not leave the crag if they wanted or coudl retreive the piece.
It's also unreasonable to leave it weeks or more, this is littering the countryside IMO, is this not also an offense?
What if they had no intention of coming back for it within a reasonable time frame, surely most people would not leave the crag if they wanted or coudl retreive the piece.
It's also unreasonable to leave it weeks or more, this is littering the countryside IMO, is this not also an offense?
In reply to Robert Durran:
??????????????????
******PROBABLY******* ??????????????
So someone falls off, gets carried to a ambulance by their mates, who understandably are more concerned about their mate than their gear. Whilst all this is occurring you trundle up to the route and on finding their gear would probably return it????
No, I'm sorry, you are a thief.
Incidentally, once whilst I was in the procss of carrying a mate to a helicopter, three cams, all with my name and phone number on them, vanished from where we had been climbing. I presume you would find that acceptable?
> (In reply to deepsoup)
> [...]
>
> If I knew there had been an accident, I probably would try to return the gear.
> [...]
>
> If I knew there had been an accident, I probably would try to return the gear.
??????????????????
******PROBABLY******* ??????????????
So someone falls off, gets carried to a ambulance by their mates, who understandably are more concerned about their mate than their gear. Whilst all this is occurring you trundle up to the route and on finding their gear would probably return it????
No, I'm sorry, you are a thief.
Incidentally, once whilst I was in the procss of carrying a mate to a helicopter, three cams, all with my name and phone number on them, vanished from where we had been climbing. I presume you would find that acceptable?
In reply to John_Hat:
I am not depriving them of possession; they have already deprived themselves of possession by abandoning it.
ps I am very relieved to see that you appear to be in a small minority on this issue.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> How else would you describe removing something from where the owner left it with the firm intent of permanently depriving them of posession?
> How else would you describe removing something from where the owner left it with the firm intent of permanently depriving them of posession?
I am not depriving them of possession; they have already deprived themselves of possession by abandoning it.
ps I am very relieved to see that you appear to be in a small minority on this issue.
In reply to John_Hat:
I maybe did not express myself very well - in this scenario I would take reasonable steps to return the gear, if such steps could be taken, thus probably trying to return it.
No, certainly not if they were aware of the situation.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> So someone falls off, gets carried to a ambulance by their mates, who understandably are more concerned about their mate than their gear. Whilst all this is occurring you trundle up to the route and on finding their gear would probably return it?
> So someone falls off, gets carried to a ambulance by their mates, who understandably are more concerned about their mate than their gear. Whilst all this is occurring you trundle up to the route and on finding their gear would probably return it?
I maybe did not express myself very well - in this scenario I would take reasonable steps to return the gear, if such steps could be taken, thus probably trying to return it.
> Incidentally, once whilst I was in the procss of carrying a mate to a helicopter, three cams, all with my name and phone number on them, vanished from where we had been climbing. I presume you would find that acceptable?
No, certainly not if they were aware of the situation.
In reply to Robert Durran:
The point is that you don't know the situation under which they abandoned it. Would you not feel pretty bad if you found out that the reason they had abandoned it was because they were helping out someone who needed medical help?
How could you look at yourself in the mirror each day? And thinking "well, I don't *know* that they were helping with an accident so its fine to thieve" doesn't count.
Several people on this thread have pointed out that it took them "30 seconds" to remove gear that had been "abandoned". Would you not just think about this and possibly wonder if it was actually "abandoned" or whether something else had occurred?
Remove it from the crag, by all means, but then make efforts to return it to its rightful owner. That's the person who bought it, by the way
Your view appears to be: "The owner is not in sight, I'm the new owner"?
The point is that you don't know the situation under which they abandoned it. Would you not feel pretty bad if you found out that the reason they had abandoned it was because they were helping out someone who needed medical help?
How could you look at yourself in the mirror each day? And thinking "well, I don't *know* that they were helping with an accident so its fine to thieve" doesn't count.
Several people on this thread have pointed out that it took them "30 seconds" to remove gear that had been "abandoned". Would you not just think about this and possibly wonder if it was actually "abandoned" or whether something else had occurred?
Remove it from the crag, by all means, but then make efforts to return it to its rightful owner. That's the person who bought it, by the way
Your view appears to be: "The owner is not in sight, I'm the new owner"?
In reply to John_Hat:
If I found that out I would take reasonable steps to return it.
I generally try not to do so anyway.
The aftermath of an accident would, I think, generally be clear - hastily abandoned kit with no atrtempt at removal (quickdraws, gear not actually stuck etc). Again, I take issue with the word "thieve".
Many people appear to be either incompetent or lacking determination in retrieving their own gear.
Not any longer!
Yes, in the case of abandoned gear.
ps I really do hope I one day I find one of your abandoned cams with your name and address on it. It would provode exceptional crag booty satisfaction.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Would you not feel pretty bad if you found out that the reason they had abandoned it was because they were helping out someone who needed medical help?
>
> Would you not feel pretty bad if you found out that the reason they had abandoned it was because they were helping out someone who needed medical help?
If I found that out I would take reasonable steps to return it.
> How could you look at yourself in the mirror each day?
I generally try not to do so anyway.
> And thinking "well, I don't *know* that they were helping with an accident so its fine to thieve" doesn't count.
The aftermath of an accident would, I think, generally be clear - hastily abandoned kit with no atrtempt at removal (quickdraws, gear not actually stuck etc). Again, I take issue with the word "thieve".
> Several people on this thread have pointed out that it took them "30 seconds" to remove gear that had been "abandoned". Would you not just think about this and possibly wonder if it was actually "abandoned" or whether something else had occurred?
Many people appear to be either incompetent or lacking determination in retrieving their own gear.
> Remove it from the crag, by all means, but then make efforts to return it to its rightful owner. That's the person who bought it, by the way
Not any longer!
> Your view appears to be: "The owner is not in sight, I'm the new owner"?
Yes, in the case of abandoned gear.
ps I really do hope I one day I find one of your abandoned cams with your name and address on it. It would provode exceptional crag booty satisfaction.
In reply to John_Hat:
Its pretty obvious if someone is being carried away from the crag in a helicopter and a route has just being left equipped by the rescuers. This does not happen very often. Most times gear has simply been left because the person didn't have the skill or patience to clean the crag after themselves. In which case its fair game.
On the one occasion I did find a substantial load of gear which must have been left on the route at least overnight (possibly rescue situation ? possibly just a complete wobbler by the leader ?), I just looked on UKC lost for a few days after. All other occasions I just see it as win some lose some. I'm happy with that.
Its pretty obvious if someone is being carried away from the crag in a helicopter and a route has just being left equipped by the rescuers. This does not happen very often. Most times gear has simply been left because the person didn't have the skill or patience to clean the crag after themselves. In which case its fair game.
On the one occasion I did find a substantial load of gear which must have been left on the route at least overnight (possibly rescue situation ? possibly just a complete wobbler by the leader ?), I just looked on UKC lost for a few days after. All other occasions I just see it as win some lose some. I'm happy with that.
In reply to Robert Durran: when I get myself motivated I,m going to start getting all thesee Bolts out of the Rock ,there everywhere and the scrap value is great ,but if there left there fair gain !!!!
In reply to Robert Durran:
If I ever see anyone in posession of one of said cams (assuming they didn't take my name and address off) then I will happily ram said cam down their f*cking throat and take my chances with prosecution later.
Failing that, I can merely hope that the knife slipped when they were scraping the tags off and went thought their f*cking hand.
> (In reply to John_Hat)
>
> ps I really do hope I one day I find one of your abandoned cams with your name and address on it. It would provode exceptional crag booty satisfaction.
>
> ps I really do hope I one day I find one of your abandoned cams with your name and address on it. It would provode exceptional crag booty satisfaction.
If I ever see anyone in posession of one of said cams (assuming they didn't take my name and address off) then I will happily ram said cam down their f*cking throat and take my chances with prosecution later.
Failing that, I can merely hope that the knife slipped when they were scraping the tags off and went thought their f*cking hand.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Actually, even better would be if you retrieved one of my cams and self-righteously advertised the fact on here and I managed to get it back from you after setting up a profile under a false name.
> (In reply to John_Hat)
> ps I really do hope I one day I find one of your abandoned cams with your name and address on it. It would provode exceptional crag booty satisfaction.
> ps I really do hope I one day I find one of your abandoned cams with your name and address on it. It would provode exceptional crag booty satisfaction.
Actually, even better would be if you retrieved one of my cams and self-righteously advertised the fact on here and I managed to get it back from you after setting up a profile under a false name.
In reply to John_Hat:
Thanks for the warning. I shall remove the tag with extreme caurtion.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> If I ever see anyone in posession of one of said cams (assuming they didn't take my name and address off) then I will happily ram said cam down their f*cking throat and take my chances with prosecution later.
>
> Failing that, I can merely hope that the knife slipped when they were scraping the tags off and went thought their f*cking hand.
> If I ever see anyone in posession of one of said cams (assuming they didn't take my name and address off) then I will happily ram said cam down their f*cking throat and take my chances with prosecution later.
>
> Failing that, I can merely hope that the knife slipped when they were scraping the tags off and went thought their f*cking hand.
Thanks for the warning. I shall remove the tag with extreme caurtion.
In reply to victorclimber:
I think you have missed the point. The bolts are not abandoned; they have been left for a purpose.
> (In reply to Robert Durran) when I get myself motivated I,m going to start getting all thesee Bolts out of the Rock ,there everywhere and the scrap value is great ,but if there left there fair gain !!!!
I think you have missed the point. The bolts are not abandoned; they have been left for a purpose.
In reply to Robert Durran: I was at a crag other day and some tit had left a bunch on shineys right there up the route. managed to get loadsa them with a spanner.
dunno what they are for tho anybody want any?
dunno what they are for tho anybody want any?
In reply to John_Hat: I like the irony. You take the moral high horse when it comes to 'theiving' but you're quite happy to ram objects down people's throats or would hope that they stab themselves. Or maybe you're full of shit?
In reply to Robert Durran:
I also take particular pleasure in finding (and doing my duty by keeping) abandoned gear which has a name tag on it: possibly it is wicked in me, but there's a delight in knowing that some property-obsessed spod has come up against a fairer system in which they do not profit from their pettiness.
The finders keepers ethic for abandoned gear is not only the fairest, it is the most beautiful. There is a great romance in the flow of gear between climbers, and pleasure to be had in both the finding and the abandoning: it's as if all gear is communal and we only hold in trust for our comrades. We are handed a baton of adventure, and in our turn hand it on to those who follow after.
Somehow so much grander than name-tagging every blessed nut. (Pesky Pig, whoever you may be, I salute you!)
I also take particular pleasure in finding (and doing my duty by keeping) abandoned gear which has a name tag on it: possibly it is wicked in me, but there's a delight in knowing that some property-obsessed spod has come up against a fairer system in which they do not profit from their pettiness.
The finders keepers ethic for abandoned gear is not only the fairest, it is the most beautiful. There is a great romance in the flow of gear between climbers, and pleasure to be had in both the finding and the abandoning: it's as if all gear is communal and we only hold in trust for our comrades. We are handed a baton of adventure, and in our turn hand it on to those who follow after.
Somehow so much grander than name-tagging every blessed nut. (Pesky Pig, whoever you may be, I salute you!)
In reply to Yonah: You are do right, I too would take great pleasure from finding fully marked up gear with name address and phone number, you must be so pedantic about your gear!!!
I would even have gear away from a route if the second went for a quick piss in the bushes, I would love to see the expression on his face after returning from a piss to find the route bare lol !
I would even have gear away from a route if the second went for a quick piss in the bushes, I would love to see the expression on his face after returning from a piss to find the route bare lol !
In reply to Yonah:
... and that, your honour, is why I don't deserve to go to prison for taking all that climbing equipment that didn't belong to me!
> The finders keepers ethic for abandoned gear is not only the fairest, it is the most beautiful. There is a great romance in the flow of gear between climbers, and pleasure to be had in both the finding and the abandoning: it's as if all gear is communal and we only hold in trust for our comrades. We are handed a baton of adventure, and in our turn hand it on to those who follow after.
... and that, your honour, is why I don't deserve to go to prison for taking all that climbing equipment that didn't belong to me!
In reply to Sonya Mc:
Sorry, don't like thieves. I'd point out that I wouldn't do such nasty things to the little dears if they kept their light-fingered hands to themselves.
With regard to the cams in question, I would point out that
a) They were clearly labelled
b) There was a group of people (of who I was one) a short distance away from said cams carrying a badly damaged friend hand-over-hand to a waiting helicopter.
c) Helicopters are not easy to miss.
Therefore it had to be pretty clear to the pilfering scumbag where the owner of said items were, what they were doing, and why they were doing it.
Perhaps next time rather than helping to pick my friend's head out of a pool of blood I should stand guard over my posessions? Sorry, people are more important - a lot more important - however that doesn't mean that £200 of cams is easy to replace - in fact I've never replaced them as I've not had the cash to do so - nor does it mean that I'm not extremely annoyed about it.
> (In reply to John_Hat) I like the irony. You take the moral high horse when it comes to 'theiving' but you're quite happy to ram objects down people's throats or would hope that they stab themselves. Or maybe you're full of shit?
Sorry, don't like thieves. I'd point out that I wouldn't do such nasty things to the little dears if they kept their light-fingered hands to themselves.
With regard to the cams in question, I would point out that
a) They were clearly labelled
b) There was a group of people (of who I was one) a short distance away from said cams carrying a badly damaged friend hand-over-hand to a waiting helicopter.
c) Helicopters are not easy to miss.
Therefore it had to be pretty clear to the pilfering scumbag where the owner of said items were, what they were doing, and why they were doing it.
Perhaps next time rather than helping to pick my friend's head out of a pool of blood I should stand guard over my posessions? Sorry, people are more important - a lot more important - however that doesn't mean that £200 of cams is easy to replace - in fact I've never replaced them as I've not had the cash to do so - nor does it mean that I'm not extremely annoyed about it.
In reply to John_Hat:
That's not really the situation people are talking about, though, is it?
At least, it's not the situation I was talking about...
I'd think it's pretty obvious if someone's gone to help a friend (or failed to complete a route and is rigging an ab to retrieve the gear, or has gone for a wee in between attempts at a route or whatever) rather than just having not managed to get a particular nut out or had a cam walk back into a crack and get wedged.
If you come across a single nut with no quickdraw halfway up a route and noone else was around you're probably safe to assume that it had got stuck and been abandoned... and in that situation it seems to be the more or less generally accepted convention that you're not under any strong obligation to try to track down the original owner.
That's not really the situation people are talking about, though, is it?
At least, it's not the situation I was talking about...
I'd think it's pretty obvious if someone's gone to help a friend (or failed to complete a route and is rigging an ab to retrieve the gear, or has gone for a wee in between attempts at a route or whatever) rather than just having not managed to get a particular nut out or had a cam walk back into a crack and get wedged.
If you come across a single nut with no quickdraw halfway up a route and noone else was around you're probably safe to assume that it had got stuck and been abandoned... and in that situation it seems to be the more or less generally accepted convention that you're not under any strong obligation to try to track down the original owner.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Sorry, it was after I explained the situation re the cams that Robert "Sorry that rucksack was just lying there clearly in need of a new owner" Durren pointed out that he'd quite like to have thieved them himself.
This prompted my comment that I hope whoever nicked them sliced their hand open trying to get my name and phone number off them, which prompted Sonya to have a go at me.
Robert's certainly trying to wind me up, and thankfully as he's in Scotland I'll never have to meet him in person.
Personally, I've come across a few nuts and the like when at crags and always advertised them on here, though never had a response. I've never used them though as frankly I don't know their history, and the sling I picked up might be ok, it might not, and its not worth my life to find out.
I have no beef with folk getting a wedged nut out, advertising on here, then regarding as their own when there is no response. It's when that inclination broadens to situations which are far nearer finding a wallet and pocketing both it and the contents.
Sorry, it was after I explained the situation re the cams that Robert "Sorry that rucksack was just lying there clearly in need of a new owner" Durren pointed out that he'd quite like to have thieved them himself.
This prompted my comment that I hope whoever nicked them sliced their hand open trying to get my name and phone number off them, which prompted Sonya to have a go at me.
Robert's certainly trying to wind me up, and thankfully as he's in Scotland I'll never have to meet him in person.
Personally, I've come across a few nuts and the like when at crags and always advertised them on here, though never had a response. I've never used them though as frankly I don't know their history, and the sling I picked up might be ok, it might not, and its not worth my life to find out.
I have no beef with folk getting a wedged nut out, advertising on here, then regarding as their own when there is no response. It's when that inclination broadens to situations which are far nearer finding a wallet and pocketing both it and the contents.
Oh my god. You CHEAP bastards! Buy your own gear. Why Do I need to keep a medium size nut when I've already got about 3 around that size? Don't have any micro's, but sure as hell I'm not going to trust some I've found lying about.
If there's a reasonable way of getting the gear back to the owner then why not? I've got my own rack and don't ejaculate every time I find an old nut.
If there's a reasonable way of getting the gear back to the owner then why not? I've got my own rack and don't ejaculate every time I find an old nut.
In reply to Yonah:
Like!
> I also take particular pleasure in finding (and doing my duty by keeping) abandoned gear which has a name tag on it: possibly it is wicked in me, but there's a delight in knowing that some property-obsessed spod has come up against a fairer system in which they do not profit from their pettiness.
>
> The finders keepers ethic for abandoned gear is not only the fairest, it is the most beautiful. There is a great romance in the flow of gear between climbers, and pleasure to be had in both the finding and the abandoning: it's as if all gear is communal and we only hold in trust for our comrades. We are handed a baton of adventure, and in our turn hand it on to those who follow after.
>
> Somehow so much grander than name-tagging every blessed nut.
>
> The finders keepers ethic for abandoned gear is not only the fairest, it is the most beautiful. There is a great romance in the flow of gear between climbers, and pleasure to be had in both the finding and the abandoning: it's as if all gear is communal and we only hold in trust for our comrades. We are handed a baton of adventure, and in our turn hand it on to those who follow after.
>
> Somehow so much grander than name-tagging every blessed nut.
Like!
In reply to Yonah:
LOL. I too comrade have removed a micro wire fully name and numbered with a little printed, laminated tag. So dainty it was, I nearly sent a text to say thanks but thought there was more romance in mystery...
LOL. I too comrade have removed a micro wire fully name and numbered with a little printed, laminated tag. So dainty it was, I nearly sent a text to say thanks but thought there was more romance in mystery...
In reply to John Hat:
99% of crag swag is fixed wires. If the original party can't be arsed to invest the time to remove the gear then it's fair game for someone else to spend the time getting it out.
There is a world of difference between finding a stuck wire half way up a pitch and a rack fo gear that has been mistakenly left at the base of a route. Common sense dictates you would let the local police know about it so the original owner could make plans to retrieve the rack.
And besides, the majority of emergency situations where someone needs evacuation would result in maybe a few wires, few crabs and a sling, 30 quids worth of gear at most left behind. I would have thought that is cheap for a life saved and anyone getting choppers pulling them off at the cost of thousands of pounds is quite frankly a bit cheeky expecting other people to fork out their own expenses to reunite 30 quids worth of gear to the original owner.
Get over it!
99% of crag swag is fixed wires. If the original party can't be arsed to invest the time to remove the gear then it's fair game for someone else to spend the time getting it out.
There is a world of difference between finding a stuck wire half way up a pitch and a rack fo gear that has been mistakenly left at the base of a route. Common sense dictates you would let the local police know about it so the original owner could make plans to retrieve the rack.
And besides, the majority of emergency situations where someone needs evacuation would result in maybe a few wires, few crabs and a sling, 30 quids worth of gear at most left behind. I would have thought that is cheap for a life saved and anyone getting choppers pulling them off at the cost of thousands of pounds is quite frankly a bit cheeky expecting other people to fork out their own expenses to reunite 30 quids worth of gear to the original owner.
Get over it!
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: Yeah I read the whole the whole thread. I als read what Robert Duran posted, did you?
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: the point is its all about common sense really isn't it.
Advertising on lost and found a single stuck wire, people should take more care about leaving their shit behind.
People should be responsible for removing their own gear.
If they can't be arsed, or are to pumped, scared, cant be bothered, then its fair game.
Obviously a rack of cams that someone mistakenly left at the base of the crag is different. Though some would say that is their own silly fault and it would teach them to be more carefull in future.
Advertising on lost and found a single stuck wire, people should take more care about leaving their shit behind.
People should be responsible for removing their own gear.
If they can't be arsed, or are to pumped, scared, cant be bothered, then its fair game.
Obviously a rack of cams that someone mistakenly left at the base of the crag is different. Though some would say that is their own silly fault and it would teach them to be more carefull in future.
In reply to steveej:
you;ll be aware that john claims to have lost significantly more than 30 pounds worth of gear then in what can only be described as blatant theft, if it happened as he said.
as others have pointed out, it is a very different situation to finding a single nut wedged half way up a route
i don;t have a problem with holding onto that, if i was able to get it out. i wouldn't expect anyone to try to return one of my nuts if i left it in similar circumstances
what john described was very different. it disturbs me that anyone would consider stealing 200 quids worth of cams from someone that was assisting at an emergency anything other than repulsive.
you can't really mean you find that ok can you? that why i thought you might not have actually read what he posted.
are you *sure* you;ve actually read the whole thread...?
you;ll be aware that john claims to have lost significantly more than 30 pounds worth of gear then in what can only be described as blatant theft, if it happened as he said.
as others have pointed out, it is a very different situation to finding a single nut wedged half way up a route
i don;t have a problem with holding onto that, if i was able to get it out. i wouldn't expect anyone to try to return one of my nuts if i left it in similar circumstances
what john described was very different. it disturbs me that anyone would consider stealing 200 quids worth of cams from someone that was assisting at an emergency anything other than repulsive.
you can't really mean you find that ok can you? that why i thought you might not have actually read what he posted.
are you *sure* you;ve actually read the whole thread...?
In reply to stubbed:
Yeah - you sound really irate. I'll make a mental note never to piss you off!
Admittedly, not giving gear back when you're still at the crag is pretty low. Surely you could have done more than glare at them though...
> So to make myself feel better I glared at them for the rest of the evening...Still not calmed down about it all these years later
Yeah - you sound really irate. I'll make a mental note never to piss you off!
Admittedly, not giving gear back when you're still at the crag is pretty low. Surely you could have done more than glare at them though...
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Yes, I read the whole thread, and it has been stated numerous times that a rack of cams lying on the ground at the base of the crag should be reunited with their owner!!!! I have said it Twice.
The opening poster also said it at the start of the thread.
Mr Hat has been making a point about reuniting stuck wires with the original owner, which I personally feel is a bit anal.
This is now getting really rather dull.
Perhaps you should pay more attention to detail and read the thread properly before commenting.
Yes, I read the whole thread, and it has been stated numerous times that a rack of cams lying on the ground at the base of the crag should be reunited with their owner!!!! I have said it Twice.
The opening poster also said it at the start of the thread.
Mr Hat has been making a point about reuniting stuck wires with the original owner, which I personally feel is a bit anal.
This is now getting really rather dull.
Perhaps you should pay more attention to detail and read the thread properly before commenting.
In reply to steveej:
i did read it properly. i noted that there is a consensus of pretty much everyone except john that single jammed nuts are fair game
and that entire racks at the bottom of routes (how often does that actually happen in the real world?) are not
there seems to be a grey area in between though. you have extended the single abandoned nut to " a few nuts, a few krabs and a sling", in a situation where someone has clearly been injured, and said this is fair game too.
you estimate at 30 quid, i'd have thought a bit more. but where do you draw the line? how much gear would it have to be before you tried to give it back?
i certainly don't think there would be the same degree of consensus that that taking that amount of gear was ok
tbh i think its a fair way down the path that saw John have 200 quids worth of cams nicked while the rescue was ongoing
i think its far from dull. interesting to see the morals of fellow climbers being aired. and surprising that some people see the serious injury of a fellow climber as an opportunity to refresh their rack
anyway, if its so dull, why do you keep posting...?
i did read it properly. i noted that there is a consensus of pretty much everyone except john that single jammed nuts are fair game
and that entire racks at the bottom of routes (how often does that actually happen in the real world?) are not
there seems to be a grey area in between though. you have extended the single abandoned nut to " a few nuts, a few krabs and a sling", in a situation where someone has clearly been injured, and said this is fair game too.
you estimate at 30 quid, i'd have thought a bit more. but where do you draw the line? how much gear would it have to be before you tried to give it back?
i certainly don't think there would be the same degree of consensus that that taking that amount of gear was ok
tbh i think its a fair way down the path that saw John have 200 quids worth of cams nicked while the rescue was ongoing
i think its far from dull. interesting to see the morals of fellow climbers being aired. and surprising that some people see the serious injury of a fellow climber as an opportunity to refresh their rack
anyway, if its so dull, why do you keep posting...?
In reply to John_Hat:
How DARE you put these words into my mouth. I have never said or implied that I would do any such things. You are, quite frankly, a ridiculous self-righteous idiot and I hope you lose your whole rack in the sea next time you are on a sea cliff - that is except for lots of stuck wires and cams which are clearly in need of a much better home anyway.
>
> Sorry, it was after I explained the situation re the cams that Robert "Sorry that rucksack was just lying there clearly in need of a new owner" Durren pointed out that he'd quite like to have thieved them himself.
> Sorry, it was after I explained the situation re the cams that Robert "Sorry that rucksack was just lying there clearly in need of a new owner" Durren pointed out that he'd quite like to have thieved them himself.
How DARE you put these words into my mouth. I have never said or implied that I would do any such things. You are, quite frankly, a ridiculous self-righteous idiot and I hope you lose your whole rack in the sea next time you are on a sea cliff - that is except for lots of stuck wires and cams which are clearly in need of a much better home anyway.
In reply to Robert Durran:
You try and wind me up, and I will wind you up. Quits, I believe.
Less fun when you're on the receiving end?
You try and wind me up, and I will wind you up. Quits, I believe.
Less fun when you're on the receiving end?
In reply to John_Hat:
I have not tried to wind you up. I find you a genuinely ridiculous anal twit. And your attribution to me of words which in no way reflect my views is really quite offensive. Yes, I am angry; congratulations if your intention was to wind me up. I sense a man who knows he has lost the debate and has been made to look a complete fool.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> You try and wind me up, and I will wind you up. Quits, I believe.
>
> Less fun when you're on the receiving end?
>
> You try and wind me up, and I will wind you up. Quits, I believe.
>
> Less fun when you're on the receiving end?
I have not tried to wind you up. I find you a genuinely ridiculous anal twit. And your attribution to me of words which in no way reflect my views is really quite offensive. Yes, I am angry; congratulations if your intention was to wind me up. I sense a man who knows he has lost the debate and has been made to look a complete fool.
In reply to Robert Durran:
are you sure..?
you to John at 15.31:
ps I really do hope I one day I find one of your abandoned cams with your name and address on it. It would provode exceptional crag booty satisfaction.
but then its all part of the cut and thrust of posting on here, IMO. pointless getting angry about it.
i particularly suggest avoiding threads with Bruce Hooker in them if you are easily upset...!
cheers
gregor
> (In reply to John_Hat)
> [...]
>
> I have not tried to wind you up.
> [...]
>
> I have not tried to wind you up.
are you sure..?
you to John at 15.31:
ps I really do hope I one day I find one of your abandoned cams with your name and address on it. It would provode exceptional crag booty satisfaction.
but then its all part of the cut and thrust of posting on here, IMO. pointless getting angry about it.
i particularly suggest avoiding threads with Bruce Hooker in them if you are easily upset...!
cheers
gregor
In reply to Robert Durran:
I quote you:
Given the cams were, as I said, nicked whilst I was involved in a rescue, I think that an attempt to wind me up was made (as you continued with comments to the note that you were going to be careful whilst getting my name/address off them).
In a way I'm glad you are angry. You were belittling and making fun of my being angry at having £200 of cams nicked. That did annoy me. I have annoyed you in turn, deliberately.
However don't think you can try and wind people up on an internet forum and walk away into the sunset with no response in kind. People will retaliate (as I just did) and if you don't like it then don't start an attack on someone else in the first palce.
My advice to you would be chill and remember that whilst the world, wives and children and friends are important, what someone else says on an internet forum isn't.
I quote you:
> "ps I really do hope I one day I find one of your abandoned cams with your name and address on it. It would provode exceptional crag booty satisfaction"
Given the cams were, as I said, nicked whilst I was involved in a rescue, I think that an attempt to wind me up was made (as you continued with comments to the note that you were going to be careful whilst getting my name/address off them).
In a way I'm glad you are angry. You were belittling and making fun of my being angry at having £200 of cams nicked. That did annoy me. I have annoyed you in turn, deliberately.
However don't think you can try and wind people up on an internet forum and walk away into the sunset with no response in kind. People will retaliate (as I just did) and if you don't like it then don't start an attack on someone else in the first palce.
My advice to you would be chill and remember that whilst the world, wives and children and friends are important, what someone else says on an internet forum isn't.
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
That was an honest response to his ridiculous standpoint, not really an attempt to wind him up.
Falsely attributing offensive views to me (for whatever reason) does, I think, cross a line of acceptability.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> "ps I really do hope I one day I find one of your abandoned cams with your name and address on it. It would provode exceptional crag booty satisfaction."
> "ps I really do hope I one day I find one of your abandoned cams with your name and address on it. It would provode exceptional crag booty satisfaction."
That was an honest response to his ridiculous standpoint, not really an attempt to wind him up.
> But then it's all part of the cut and thrust of posting on here, IMO. pointless getting angry about it.
Falsely attributing offensive views to me (for whatever reason) does, I think, cross a line of acceptability.
In reply to Robert Durran:
you surely can't really believe that, can you? it certainly doesn't seem a very convincing denial.
it certainly looked like a deliberate wind up and was, at the very least, reckless as to whether offense was given. given that i think the response was legitimate.
if you dont like people winding you up, then be more careful to avoid winding others up,
cheers
gregor
> (In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs)
> [...]
>
> That was an honest response to his ridiculous standpoint, not really an attempt to wind him up.
> [...]
>
> That was an honest response to his ridiculous standpoint, not really an attempt to wind him up.
you surely can't really believe that, can you? it certainly doesn't seem a very convincing denial.
it certainly looked like a deliberate wind up and was, at the very least, reckless as to whether offense was given. given that i think the response was legitimate.
if you dont like people winding you up, then be more careful to avoid winding others up,
cheers
gregor
In reply to John_Hat:
It was perfectly clear that I was not referring to one of your cams in that accident situation - I was talking about one you might hypothetically abandon stuck on a route sometime in the future.
I was perfectly clearly not doing so. I agree entirely with you on those cams. Once again you are offensively attributing stuff to me which is entirely a figment of your pathetic little imagination.
And cut out the stupid smilies. Pretending your offensiveness is now just something you can laugh off won't get you off the hook of your own making.
> Given the cams were, as I said, nicked whilst I was involved in a rescue, I think that an attempt to wind me up was made (as you continued with comments to the note that you were going to be careful whilst getting my name/address off them).
It was perfectly clear that I was not referring to one of your cams in that accident situation - I was talking about one you might hypothetically abandon stuck on a route sometime in the future.
>
> In a way I'm glad you are angry. You were belittling and making fun of my being angry at having £200 of cams nicked.
> In a way I'm glad you are angry. You were belittling and making fun of my being angry at having £200 of cams nicked.
I was perfectly clearly not doing so. I agree entirely with you on those cams. Once again you are offensively attributing stuff to me which is entirely a figment of your pathetic little imagination.
>
And cut out the stupid smilies. Pretending your offensiveness is now just something you can laugh off won't get you off the hook of your own making.
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Well I accept it clearly did wind him up, not that that bothers me now anyway.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> It certainly looked like a deliberate wind up and was, at the very least, reckless as to whether offense was given. given that i think the response was legitimate.
> It certainly looked like a deliberate wind up and was, at the very least, reckless as to whether offense was given. given that i think the response was legitimate.
Well I accept it clearly did wind him up, not that that bothers me now anyway.
In reply to Robert Durran:
no you don;t look bothered at all..!
man up and admit you had a dig at him with the cams comment, then we can all draw a line under the whole sorry affair...
cheers
gregor
> (In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs)
> [...]
>
> Well I accept it clearly did wind him up, not that that bothers me now anyway.
> [...]
>
> Well I accept it clearly did wind him up, not that that bothers me now anyway.
no you don;t look bothered at all..!
man up and admit you had a dig at him with the cams comment, then we can all draw a line under the whole sorry affair...
cheers
gregor
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Ok, I admit I had a dig at him, though I didn't really primarily have in mind to wind him up - I was just stating, in view of his silly views on crag booty, that it would be satisfying to acquire some of his abandoned gear.
The important point, though, remains that in no way did I condone the removal of the cams in his accident situation, let alone suggest that I would have liked to have removed them myself. His clearly deliberately false accusation that this is the case (See his post at 18.07),and which he has now tried to brush off as a "wind up", is what I find unacceptable and offensive. It is him who should man up and admit that he has been out of order.
> Man up and admit you had a dig at him with the cams comment, then we can all draw a line under the whole sorry affair...
Ok, I admit I had a dig at him, though I didn't really primarily have in mind to wind him up - I was just stating, in view of his silly views on crag booty, that it would be satisfying to acquire some of his abandoned gear.
The important point, though, remains that in no way did I condone the removal of the cams in his accident situation, let alone suggest that I would have liked to have removed them myself. His clearly deliberately false accusation that this is the case (See his post at 18.07),and which he has now tried to brush off as a "wind up", is what I find unacceptable and offensive. It is him who should man up and admit that he has been out of order.
In reply to elliptic:
I spent the spring of 1974 in North Wales climbing almost every day. Our favorite day was also Monday when we scoured the crags for swag left by the weekenders. It was a poor day if we only got one piece.
Anyone --- please contact me with a description of your lost gear and I'll do my best to return it.
I spent the spring of 1974 in North Wales climbing almost every day. Our favorite day was also Monday when we scoured the crags for swag left by the weekenders. It was a poor day if we only got one piece.
Anyone --- please contact me with a description of your lost gear and I'll do my best to return it.
In reply to Robert Durran:
If someone had a small piece of kit stuck then I would add it to the other items I have collected (and would user to back off a climb if needed).
If it were a larger more expensive piece of kit on the climb or at the crag then I would do my best to return it as I would appreciate someone doing that for me.
If kit and equipment has been left behind for a lower off then I would certainly not even contemplate taking any of it. And if it looked tatty or worse for wear then I might add to it as I have abbed of a lot of other peoples in situ gear (admitadly on mainland europe)and have left a bit of my own. The most unfortunate 16 foot sling sacrifce happening just 3 weeks ago in the Dolomites :S
If someone had a small piece of kit stuck then I would add it to the other items I have collected (and would user to back off a climb if needed).
If it were a larger more expensive piece of kit on the climb or at the crag then I would do my best to return it as I would appreciate someone doing that for me.
If kit and equipment has been left behind for a lower off then I would certainly not even contemplate taking any of it. And if it looked tatty or worse for wear then I might add to it as I have abbed of a lot of other peoples in situ gear (admitadly on mainland europe)and have left a bit of my own. The most unfortunate 16 foot sling sacrifce happening just 3 weeks ago in the Dolomites :S
In reply to Robert Durran:
Something that you know is not yours; easy to attempt to reunite owner and item.
Man is the only self-justifying animal. Keeping it is either greedy or lazy. 'traditions' change (though the flow of nuts and memories is quite romantic )..but
I agree with John Hat. And that you've been re-rolled
Something that you know is not yours; easy to attempt to reunite owner and item.
Man is the only self-justifying animal. Keeping it is either greedy or lazy. 'traditions' change (though the flow of nuts and memories is quite romantic )..but
I agree with John Hat. And that you've been re-rolled
In reply to Robert Durran:
Don't forget to check other climbers taping colours on the crag before departing and never take a top anckor unless there is an easy way down.
Don't forget to check other climbers taping colours on the crag before departing and never take a top anckor unless there is an easy way down.
In reply to thin bob:
So it comes down to whether, if you abandon a jammed nut, it is still yours. Most people on here seem to sgree that it is not any longer and that it is therefore fair game a crag booty.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> Something that you know is not yours......
> Something that you know is not yours......
So it comes down to whether, if you abandon a jammed nut, it is still yours. Most people on here seem to sgree that it is not any longer and that it is therefore fair game a crag booty.
In reply to Robert Durran: it's still the original owners. My point was do you keep it due to greed, laziness or tradition.
Most people wouldn't be too distressed over a single nut, I suspect.....unless it was the first one they bought, a present or reminder of a friend..or route
Most people wouldn't be too distressed over a single nut, I suspect.....unless it was the first one they bought, a present or reminder of a friend..or route
In reply to thin bob:
Well, you can disagree with me (and, it seems, most others) on that.
Tradition mainly. It is not greed, though good crag booty is always satisfying (and abandoning gear is always annoying). In the long term you win some and lose some - it's just part of the game.
> (In reply to Robert Durran) It's still the original owner's.
Well, you can disagree with me (and, it seems, most others) on that.
> My point was do you keep it due to greed, laziness or tradition.
Tradition mainly. It is not greed, though good crag booty is always satisfying (and abandoning gear is always annoying). In the long term you win some and lose some - it's just part of the game.
In reply to thin bob:
Like my lucky number 7 rock, caught me in 3 falls and I had to leave it on Tryfan during a bail off. Posted on here but never got it back.
Got a hex, a wire and a sling off Raven crag once though, posted on here but no one claimed it.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> Most people wouldn't be too distressed over a single nut, I suspect.....unless it was the first one they bought, a present or reminder of a friend..or route
Like my lucky number 7 rock, caught me in 3 falls and I had to leave it on Tryfan during a bail off. Posted on here but never got it back.
Got a hex, a wire and a sling off Raven crag once though, posted on here but no one claimed it.
In reply to Robert Durran:
When I offended, it was deliberate retaliation for you offending me. I'm hardly going to "man up" and apologise for something I neither regret nor think was not justified. I'm not on any hook I can see.
You have a go at someone on these forums (or any forum), you're probably going to get it back. To think otherwise is somewhat wishful thinking.
Your latest posts appear to be trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube and say you totally agree with it being wrong that my cams were nicked after you've (somewhat gleefully, it appeared to me) said that if you came across them it would be a particularly satisfying bit of crag swag.
------------
FWIW, I've lost count of the number of people I've said "NO, I didn't say that" to on this forum. If I got deeply offended each time I'd probably never post here.
------------
I'll re-iterate my opinion on "crag swag". If you didn't buy it, its not yours. Hence by all means remove it from the crag, but then post on here (or similar) and at least make some effort to return it.
My view is that anything else is a poor excuse for taking someone else's property with no intention of returning it.
I also think that for perfectly selfish reasons using a bit of gear where you don't know its history is dodgy. It might look all right, but that sling which I found at a crag a few years ago might have spent half its life sat in a pool of brake fluid. I don't know, and its not worth my life to find out.
Hence it's useless to me, and potentially useful to the original owner, hence they are welcome to it back, quite apart from my view that the person who bought it wasn't me, hence I have no claim on it.
We differ in this, which is fine. It would be a boring world if everyone thought the same.
Of course, you win both ways with your opinion. I find a nut/cam/sling/etc of yours, I'll post on here, you'll get it back. You find similar of mine, you'll pocket it and depart with a clean conscience into the sunset.
In any case, I'm going to potter off this thread now, and leave you the pleasure of the last word. Enjoy
> (In reply to John_Hat)
> [...]
>
>
> And cut out the stupid smilies. Pretending your offensiveness is now just something you can laugh off won't get you off the hook of your own making.
> [...]
>
>
> And cut out the stupid smilies. Pretending your offensiveness is now just something you can laugh off won't get you off the hook of your own making.
When I offended, it was deliberate retaliation for you offending me. I'm hardly going to "man up" and apologise for something I neither regret nor think was not justified. I'm not on any hook I can see.
You have a go at someone on these forums (or any forum), you're probably going to get it back. To think otherwise is somewhat wishful thinking.
Your latest posts appear to be trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube and say you totally agree with it being wrong that my cams were nicked after you've (somewhat gleefully, it appeared to me) said that if you came across them it would be a particularly satisfying bit of crag swag.
------------
FWIW, I've lost count of the number of people I've said "NO, I didn't say that" to on this forum. If I got deeply offended each time I'd probably never post here.
------------
I'll re-iterate my opinion on "crag swag". If you didn't buy it, its not yours. Hence by all means remove it from the crag, but then post on here (or similar) and at least make some effort to return it.
My view is that anything else is a poor excuse for taking someone else's property with no intention of returning it.
I also think that for perfectly selfish reasons using a bit of gear where you don't know its history is dodgy. It might look all right, but that sling which I found at a crag a few years ago might have spent half its life sat in a pool of brake fluid. I don't know, and its not worth my life to find out.
Hence it's useless to me, and potentially useful to the original owner, hence they are welcome to it back, quite apart from my view that the person who bought it wasn't me, hence I have no claim on it.
We differ in this, which is fine. It would be a boring world if everyone thought the same.
Of course, you win both ways with your opinion. I find a nut/cam/sling/etc of yours, I'll post on here, you'll get it back. You find similar of mine, you'll pocket it and depart with a clean conscience into the sunset.
In any case, I'm going to potter off this thread now, and leave you the pleasure of the last word. Enjoy
In reply to John_Hat and others:
They have the right idea in the states...
#1 Any gear that you lose due to incompetence, getting spanked, fear, lack of skill , retrete, etc. becomes booty the moment that you give up attempts to recover said gear. The exception would be if you let it be known that were returning the next day at first light to resume recovery attempt. Once you give up on recovery attempts it is in fact BOOTY
#2 Gear left in the parking lot is lost and found, NOT booty.
3# Any gear left in the process of a rescue is NOT booty and shall be returned to the rightfull owners or next of kin.
#4 Finders of booty may offer to return booty to the spanked party but you will lose face if you accept the offer.
#5 it is extremly poor form to ask for lost booty to be returned to you. If the finders offer and you refuse the offer and they offer again then you may acept the return of the booty but you will still lose face and owe them a debt of honor. This debt may be eased but not completly erased by a gift of beer. (You and they will know that you are their bitch) It is best to suck it up and just say, hey, thanks for offering but you guys earned it.
The booty game is supposed to be fun and a way for strong poor climbers to build their rack at the expense of rich weak climbers. As soon as someone gets hurt it is not fun anymore so everyone should pitch in, help out and try to get everyones gear back at the end of the day.
The best form is to solo up to snag the booty gear or lead up but rapping in is acceptable provideing that all recovery attemts by the loseing party have been exausted.
(Shamelessly cut and pasted from Supertopo)
They have the right idea in the states...
#1 Any gear that you lose due to incompetence, getting spanked, fear, lack of skill , retrete, etc. becomes booty the moment that you give up attempts to recover said gear. The exception would be if you let it be known that were returning the next day at first light to resume recovery attempt. Once you give up on recovery attempts it is in fact BOOTY
#2 Gear left in the parking lot is lost and found, NOT booty.
3# Any gear left in the process of a rescue is NOT booty and shall be returned to the rightfull owners or next of kin.
#4 Finders of booty may offer to return booty to the spanked party but you will lose face if you accept the offer.
#5 it is extremly poor form to ask for lost booty to be returned to you. If the finders offer and you refuse the offer and they offer again then you may acept the return of the booty but you will still lose face and owe them a debt of honor. This debt may be eased but not completly erased by a gift of beer. (You and they will know that you are their bitch) It is best to suck it up and just say, hey, thanks for offering but you guys earned it.
The booty game is supposed to be fun and a way for strong poor climbers to build their rack at the expense of rich weak climbers. As soon as someone gets hurt it is not fun anymore so everyone should pitch in, help out and try to get everyones gear back at the end of the day.
The best form is to solo up to snag the booty gear or lead up but rapping in is acceptable provideing that all recovery attemts by the loseing party have been exausted.
(Shamelessly cut and pasted from Supertopo)
In reply to metal arms:
Poor strong climbers rather than strong poor climbers, presumably?
> (In reply to John_Hat and others)
> The booty game is supposed to be fun and a way for strong poor climbers to build their rack at the expense of rich weak climbers.
Poor strong climbers rather than strong poor climbers, presumably?
In reply to metal arms:
I think the unwritten rules of the time-honoured British tradition (as illustrated by the general concensus in this thread)are petty much the same.
Nicely put though!
> (In reply to John_Hat and others)
>
> They have the right idea in the states...
>
> They have the right idea in the states...
I think the unwritten rules of the time-honoured British tradition (as illustrated by the general concensus in this thread)are petty much the same.
Nicely put though!
In reply to John_Hat: so how do you get your name and phone number on your cams? Me and my mates just use little bits of coloured tape which allows us to claim ownership next time we climb together. I started this thread torn as I have lost a fair few racks worth over the years, but I've also collected a fair bit. My favourite 'spare' #8 nut found in nearly new condition (except for the score where I forced it out of the rock)from 10 years ago and a sling which I've always been so wary of that I only ever keep it as a spare but has therefore accompanied me to the top of every climb. But given your puritanical bitterness over a few lost friends I think I'll move to the other side.
In reply to MrSpob:
One way is to use these:
http://www.toughtags.co.uk/
> so how do you get your name and phone number on your cams?...
One way is to use these:
http://www.toughtags.co.uk/
In reply to MrSpob:
>so how do you get your name and phone number on your cams?
More to the point, once one of you nancyboys who leaves their gear behind and then expects it returned to them by the more capable has got one of their friends stuck, how can the mccs then go about getting the previous owner's name and address OFF the object?
jcm
>so how do you get your name and phone number on your cams?
More to the point, once one of you nancyboys who leaves their gear behind and then expects it returned to them by the more capable has got one of their friends stuck, how can the mccs then go about getting the previous owner's name and address OFF the object?
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
You're tackling the problem the hard way, just squat in the nancy boy's home and change your name by deed poll, if he can't be arsed to retrieve the gear himself he doesn't deserve to keep it, or his home, or his identity!
You're tackling the problem the hard way, just squat in the nancy boy's home and change your name by deed poll, if he can't be arsed to retrieve the gear himself he doesn't deserve to keep it, or his home, or his identity!
In reply to John_Hat:
You may find my views offensive. Quite frankly I can live with that since my conscience is clear. However that does not justify you resorting to blatantly offensive lies about what I have said in this thread.
Oh for God's sake. Read what I said again and you will find that there is absolutely no connection between the unfortunate removal of your cams after an accident and the satisfaction I would get from finding one of your cams stuck in the future.
That is your choice but, personally, if it seems ok then I'll use it. I think people get ridiculously hung up on this received orthodoxy that you must know the history of every bit of gear. Like everything else it is a judgement call. Nuts and cams are no problem (if they are stuck then they have not just been dropped from a graet height). I have a couple of booty cams and a handful of rocks in use. Quite a few of my hexes are winter booty. Most of my screw gates and the majority of my slings currently in use are crag booty - I am always amazed how many people choose to abseil off an expensive sewn sling and a screwgate when bailing off a route rather than carrying ab tat and sacrificing a snaplink if worried about pulling the ropes.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> When I offended, it was deliberate retaliation for you offending me. I'm hardly going to "man up" and apologise for something I neither regret nor think was not justified. I'm not on any hook I can see.
>
> When I offended, it was deliberate retaliation for you offending me. I'm hardly going to "man up" and apologise for something I neither regret nor think was not justified. I'm not on any hook I can see.
You may find my views offensive. Quite frankly I can live with that since my conscience is clear. However that does not justify you resorting to blatantly offensive lies about what I have said in this thread.
> Your latest posts appear to be trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube and say you totally agree with it being wrong that my cams were nicked after you've (somewhat gleefully, it appeared to me) said that if you came across them it would be a particularly satisfying bit of crag swag.
Oh for God's sake. Read what I said again and you will find that there is absolutely no connection between the unfortunate removal of your cams after an accident and the satisfaction I would get from finding one of your cams stuck in the future.
> I also think that using a bit of gear where you don't know its history is dodgy. It might look all right, but that sling which I found at a crag a few years ago might have spent half its life sat in a pool of brake fluid. I don't know, and its not worth my life to find out.
That is your choice but, personally, if it seems ok then I'll use it. I think people get ridiculously hung up on this received orthodoxy that you must know the history of every bit of gear. Like everything else it is a judgement call. Nuts and cams are no problem (if they are stuck then they have not just been dropped from a graet height). I have a couple of booty cams and a handful of rocks in use. Quite a few of my hexes are winter booty. Most of my screw gates and the majority of my slings currently in use are crag booty - I am always amazed how many people choose to abseil off an expensive sewn sling and a screwgate when bailing off a route rather than carrying ab tat and sacrificing a snaplink if worried about pulling the ropes.
In reply to Robert Durran: having discussed this with my missus , she told me that retrieving stuck gear is part of the "art" of a second and that its the one area she gets job satisfaction from.... The joy of freeing a nut because you have more skill than the last. My missus truly does see cleaning a route as an art
In reply to afshapes:
She sees seconding as an art! Your missus really does sound like the perfect woman.......
> Having discussed this with my missus , she told me that retrieving stuck gear is part of the "art" of a second and that its the one area she gets job satisfaction from....
She sees seconding as an art! Your missus really does sound like the perfect woman.......
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