UKC

Was reading through the Stanage guide the other day and one of the routes (think it was High Neb Buttress) was mentioned as being probably one of the hardest climb of its day.

It got me thinking.....

What would a ticklist of the hardest trad routes of their day look like?

High Neb was climbed in 1914, could you create a list of the hardest climb from every 5 year period?

I'll start off with two:

1910-1915: High Neb Buttress (VS, 4c)
Current: Echo Wall (E12?)

In reply to tom290483: Suicide wall route 1 E2 5c was lead in 1945, pretty sure it was the hardest route in the UK at the time?

In reply to CragRat_Trad: or at least in the country.

In reply to tom290483:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15814

I guess Cave Arete Indirect at Laddow would've been the hardest from 1916 - er.. dunno. More than five years though probably.

In reply to tom290483:

in 1985 gullichs punks in the gym at arapiles (till some bastard chipped and glued it).

In reply to deepsoup:

good start.

if we take it back to begin at 1900 that'll be 23 climbs in total. Got three already.

1911-1915: High Neb Buttress (VS,4c) FA Ivar Berg
1916-1920: Cave Arete Indirect (E1,5a) FA Ivar Berg
a few gaps....
2006-2010: Echo Wall (E12 sillyness) FA Dave Macleod

In reply to ice.solo:

sorry iceman i was kinda thinking about keeping it UK based. i'm pretty small minded like that.

In reply to tom290483:

fair enough. still interesting.

In reply to ice.solo:

absolutely. if i can put together this list then i'll be interested to see a world wide ticklist.

interesting to see how you far against the best climbers of the day, i reckon i'd make ito maybe 1945 and then get no further!

In reply to tom290483:

1900-1905: Parsons Chimney (HS,4b and a bit...) FA W. Parsons
1911-1915: High Neb Buttress (VS,4c) FA Ivar Berg
1916-1920: Cave Arete Indirect (E1,5a) FA Ivar Berg
a few gaps....
2006-2010: Echo Wall (E12 sillyness) FA Dave Macleod

In reply to tom290483: 86-90 parthian shot?

In reply to smithaldo: actually central buttress on scafell was done in 1914, which is harder than high neb buttress so that's your first one wrong anyway.

In reply to tom290483: The first ascent of Central Buttress on Scafell 1914 was a landmark route. Now gets E1 (although a crucial chockstone has departed so think it used to be a tough HVS. Think some combined tactics were used in the first ascent though. Still definitely harder than High Neb Buttress and from the same year.

In reply to smithaldo: Beat me to it!

In reply to tom290483:

Would Ravens Gully in 1937 by Jock Nimlin get in? It says HVS 5a, but I tried it earlier in the year and it isn't...

In reply to smithaldo & The Ivanator:

cheers both.

i imagine there will be many an argument/route change on route to getting a complete list out of this!

I'll put it in at HVS (as per the FA).

Work is quite today if anybody was wondering......

In reply to tom290483: The Wasdale Crack HS was first ascended in 1886 as a solo by Haskett-Smith.

In reply to tom290483: Requiem 1983 E8? mustve been on of the earlier E8's? 1986 Indian face (first E9?)

In reply to tom290483:

http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Traditional_Climbing_Records_Page_316.ht...

In reply to The Ivanator:

anyone go any ideas about what the hardest trad climb was before Echo Wall? It cant be rhapsody as it was climbed in 2006 and therefore falls in the same banding 2006-2010.

So need a route climbed 2001-2005 or earlier...

In reply to CragRat_Trad:

Interesting. Indian Face and Parthian Shot are in the same 1986-1990 time frame. Which is harder?! ha ha. good luck answering that one.

In reply to tom290483:

Bloody Slab, Cloggy? Not sure when that was though?

In reply to tom290483: There's not an answer to that. They're so different, however if you're going to put it into era's, surely Indian face should represent that era because it was climbed sooner, so a bigger milestone?

In reply to Southern Man:

According to The Villain - 1952.

Si

In reply to tom290483: : Equilibrium E10 7a? 2000 (first E10 in the uk?)

In reply to CraigMac1: That list misses the Alport Stone. Pretty certain the gap filler routes on the NW arete now given HVS were ascended pre 1900.

In reply to CragRat_Trad: Devided years E10 (1995?) Breathless E10 (2000)

In reply to tom290483:

You probably need to find a space for Liquid Ambar, Hubble, Big Bang and Overshadow (plus maybe other routes of those grades if higher-in-the-grade ones appeared later) in there somewhere since even the easiest of those would be technically harder than everything except maybe Echo Wall...

Maybe even some of the easier Fr8s at slightly earlier times to be fair as well... I don't know when the first ones of those were mind you.

I don't know the dates of them though I'm afraid.

In reply to AJM: Statement of Youth F8a was a pretty early UK f8a, not sure if it;s the first? 1984 Ben Moon.

In reply to AJM:

that would get really complicated. the sport list can come next. just thinking about trad for now.

Cheers.

In reply to tom290483: Pretty sure Divided years E10 7a would be the 1995-2000 (or 1990-1995) Depending how you're working it..

In reply to CragRat_Trad:

so.....

1900-1905 Parsons Chimney (HS,4b) FA W.Parsons
1906-1910
1911-1915 Central Buttress (HVS,5b) FA ?
1916-1920 Cave Arete Indirect (E1,5a) FA Ivar Berg
1921-1925
1926-1930
1931-1935
1936-1940
1941-1945 Suicide Wall (E2,5c) FA C.Preston
1946-1950 Demon Rib (E3,5c) FA P.Harding
1951-1955
1956-1960 Goliath (E4,5c) FA Don Whillans
1961-1965
1966-1970 Green Death (E5,5c) FA Tom Proctor
1971-1975 Right Wall (E5,6a) FA Pete Livesey
1976-1980 Rays Roof (E7,6c) FA Ray Jardine
1981-1985 Requiem (E8,6b) FA Dave Cuthbertson
1986-1990 Indian Face(E9,6c) FA J.Dawes or Parthian Shot (E9,6c) FA J.Dunne
1991-1995 Divided Years (E9,6c) FA J.Dunne
1996-2000 Equilibrium (E10,7a) FA Neil Bentley
2001-2005
2006-2010 Echo Wall (E12) FA Dave Macleod

Feel free to add.

In reply to tom290483:

What's the benchmark for 1972/1973? I have a dark horse suggestion at E5 6a.

In reply to tom290483: 1991-1995 could probably be filled with If 6 was 9 by brikett 1992 E9 6c same as Breathless E10 7a 2000 Dunne could fill the 1996-2000 slot. 2001 doctor doolittle? E10 7a john arran or 2003 blind vision 2009 E9 6c

In reply to Dave Garnett: Constables Overhang, E5 6b, FA Hank Pasquill, Wilton 3 1974.

Andy F

In reply to tom290483: Two to consider: Right Twin Chimney HVS Seigfried Herford 1910, predated by Downfall Groove HVS Jimmy Puttrell 1900(ish) both on Kinder.

In reply to andy farnell:

good shout.

In reply to tom290483:

Alport Stone: Shoulder Route VS 4c mid-1890s; also the NW arete to the left has several overlapping HVS 5a variants almost certainly done soon after. Also on same rock a very reach dependant line called The Sloth was done in the 70's that may be the same as the E6 6c, Clockwork Monkey (but not yet settled at that grade).

Demon Rib doesn't follow the modern line and was probably easier than the current start.

Many of these routes were actually way harder than their current grades due to changes in protection and other equipment. As an example I'd give Neb Buttress E1 5a using the gear of the time (unless the start was easier then, in which case E1 4c).

In reply to tom290483: Javelin Blade Jack Longland 1930?

In reply to johnl:

1900-1905 Parsons Chimney (HS,4b) FA W.Parsons
1906-1910 Right Twin Chimney (HVS,5a) FA Sigfried Herford
1911-1915 Central Buttress (HVS,5b) FA ?
1916-1920 Cave Arete Indirect (E1,5a) FA Ivar Berg
1921-1925
1926-1930
1931-1935
1936-1940
1941-1945 Suicide Wall (E2,5c) FA C.Preston
1946-1950 Demon Rib (E3,5c) FA P.Harding
1951-1955
1956-1960 Goliath (E4,5c) FA Don Whillans
1961-1965
1966-1970 Green Death (E5,5c) FA Tom Proctor
1971-1975 Right Wall (E5,6a) FA Pete Livesey
1976-1980 Rays Roof (E7,6c) FA Ray Jardine
1981-1985 Requiem (E8,6b) FA Dave Cuthbertson
1986-1990 Indian Face(E9,6c) FA J.Dawes or Parthian Shot (E9,6c) FA J.Dunne
1991-1995 Divided Years (E9,6c) FA J.Dunne
1996-2000 Equilibrium (E10,7a) FA Neil Bentley
2001-2005 Doctor Doolittle (E10,7a) FA John Arran
2006-2010 Echo Wall (E12) FA Dave Macleod

In reply to petwes: Javelin blade isn't a bad shout..

In reply to tom290483:

Why use 5-year intervals? I think a list of all routes that were the hardest route in Britain (or the world) when first climbed would be more interesting.

In reply to MikeRobbins:

doesnt have to be 5yearly intervals, was just an easy way of breaking it down. i think the above list is pretty much a list of hardest lines in UK when they were climbed.

as for a world list. i'll let you start that one

In reply to The Ivanator:

Can it be counted as HVS when a shoulder was used for the crux pitch?

In reply to The Ivanator:

It was upgraded from VD to HS due to the polish, which presumably was less of a problem in 1886

In reply to CragRat_Trad:

1900-1905 Parsons Chimney (HS,4b) FA W.Parsons
1906-1910 Right Twin Chimney (HVS,5a) FA Sigfried Herford
1911-1915 Central Buttress (HVS,5b) FA ?
1916-1920 Cave Arete Indirect (E1,5a) FA Ivar Berg
1921-1925
1926-1930 Javelin Blade (E1,5b) FA Jack Longland
1931-1935
1936-1940
1941-1945 Suicide Wall (E2,5c) FA C.Preston
1946-1950 Demon Rib (E3,5c) FA P.Harding
1951-1955
1956-1960 Goliath (E4,5c) FA Don Whillans
1961-1965
1966-1970 Green Death (E5,5c) FA Tom Proctor
1971-1975 Right Wall (E5,6a) FA Pete Livesey
1976-1980 Rays Roof (E7,6c) FA Ray Jardine
1981-1985 Requiem (E8,6b) FA Dave Cuthbertson
1986-1990 Indian Face(E9,6c) FA J.Dawes or Parthian Shot (E9,6c) FA J.Dunne
1991-1995 Divided Years (E9,6c) FA J.Dunne
1996-2000 Equilibrium (E10,7a) FA Neil Bentley
2001-2005 Doctor Doolittle (E10,7a) FA John Arran
2006-2010 Echo Wall (E12) FA Dave Macleod

In reply to Toreador:

not a clue. ethics and me dont go together very well so i'm the wrong person to ask!

you raised the question. shall i keep it on the list or replace it?

In reply to tom290483: Ive given you the Alport Stone routes twice now that predates it. What kind of list keeper are you?

In reply to Offwidth:

easy now wide boy.

your suggestion is that parsons should be removed and replaced with shoulder route yeah? FA?

In reply to tom290483:

I'm just saying you should scrap the 5 year intervals, and just list all routes that have been the hardest route in Britain in chronological order.

No point in the 5 year intervals, it just means we arbitrarily miss out interesting routes just because another harder one was climbed up to five years later.

Just get rid of the intervals.

In reply to tom290483:

Our Father (1967) is harder than Green Death.


Chris

PS I know Green Death is E5 and Our Father is E4 btw!

In reply to tom290483: Mid 1890's Ernest Baker is the first recorded ascent but it's almost certain Puttrell or other Alpine Club members beat him to it.

In reply to tom290483:

When was Echo Wall graded E12? - If you repeated it, well done! Good to get some concensus on these top end chop routes.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

i will bow to your greater knowledge on this one. consider it changed.

In reply to Chris Craggs:
On similar lines, an honourable mention for Kelly's Overhang (Stanage) perhaps?
FA Morley Wood 1926, 'only' HVS 5b but one of those HVS's that seems harder than E1. ;O)

In reply to snoop6060:

this morning, by me. macleod is just being awkward by not giving it a grade and it messies up my ticklist.

>If you repeated it, well done!

sarcasm?

>Good to get some concensus on these top end chop routes.

feel free to give some then.

In reply to deepsoup:

Agreed, going well one evening I did Quietus and Impossible Slab without a falter then had a right ta-ta on Kelly's O'hing - I always thought is desperate - something to do with having long legs and a big chest!


Chris

In reply to tom290483:

1900-1905 Shoulder Route (VS,4c) FA Ernest Baker
1906-1910 Right Twin Chimney (HVS,5a) FA Sigfried Herford
1911-1915 Central Buttress (HVS,5b) FA ?
1916-1920 Cave Arete Indirect (E1,5a) FA Ivar Berg
1921-1925
1926-1930 Javelin Blade (E1,5b) FA Jack Longland
1931-1935
1936-1940
1941-1945 Suicide Wall (E2,5c) FA C.Preston
1946-1950 Demon Rib (E3,5c) FA P.Harding
1951-1955
1956-1960 Goliath (E4,5c) FA Don Whillans
1961-1965
1966-1970 Our Father (E4,6b) FA Tom Proctor
1971-1975 Right Wall (E5,6a) FA Pete Livesey
1976-1980 Rays Roof (E7,6c) FA Ray Jardine
1981-1985 Requiem (E8,6b) FA Dave Cuthbertson
1986-1990 Indian Face(E9,6c) FA J.Dawes or Parthian Shot (E9,6c) FA J.Dunne
1991-1995 Divided Years (E9,6c) FA J.Dunne
1996-2000 Equilibrium (E10,7a) FA Neil Bentley
2001-2005 Doctor Doolittle (E10,7a) FA John Arran
2006-2010 Echo Wall (E12(?)) FA Dave Macleod

In reply to tom290483:

????

I thought we were scrapping the 5 year intervals?

In reply to MikeRobbins:

If you want to do that, just search the forums for the last time such a list was compiled.

At least the 50-year intervals will result in a different list!

In reply to Toreador:

1900-1960: Goliath
1960-2011: Echo Wall

In reply to andy farnell:

When I was doing the guide I came across a report that Suicide Arete at Heighley Castle (Staffordshire sandstones, near Keele Uni) was led before 1973. When Seb Grieve repeated it (late 90s?) he gave it E5 6a.

In reply to tom290483: Didn't Ken Wilson do something similar to this in the first 2 or 3 editions of Mountain. I know that was up to about 1968.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I agree. Have done GD twice, never done the first pitch of OF. Last time I failed on it I did Scoop Wall and then Menopause P2. Which is also easier than OF.

In reply to tom290483:

A good list!

Would have thought:

1971-1975 Footless Crow (E5,6b) FA Pete Livesey, more appropriate, possibly.

Irrespective of the route, Pete was the main man during those years. His vision and dedication inspired the rest of us.

Mick

In reply to tom290483:


That list makes no sense from 1990. Divided years has settled at E8, as had parthian shot. And if Doctor doolittle was the hardest route around in 2005, it probably still is! Echo wall wasn't done in 2006 either.

In reply to tom290483: In reply to tom290483: We also have the hard as nails sports routes...



northern lights, FA Steve McClure.2007 ish.
Mutation at raven tor another McClure effort 98-99?
overshadow Another for McClure
Total eclipse FA The big man(aka John Dunne)
Violent New Breed At giggleswick, Mr Gaskins
I think they are all 9a-9a+ ish but since they are, as far as I know un repeated they are difficult to grade...

In reply to tom290483: 1900-1905 Boterill's Slab as well (VS 4c)
1965-1970 Dinosaur on Gogarth although bits of it were aided (E5)

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Do we take the original grade for the list of the grade it has settled at? Thinking about how gear/tactics has improved?

your right about echo wall (2008), rhapsody was done in 2006 but echo wall fills the 2006-2010 gap due to it being a possibly harder (?) and definitely more serious climb.

its only for a bit of fun franco. feel free to adjust the list.

In reply to tom290483:

Green Death, Millstone E5 5c

Tom Proctor, 1969

In reply to tom290483: There's no need to ignore Rhapsody, just list all routes which were the hardest when first climbed, irrespective of which "bracket" they fall into.

The content of the list depends to a large extent on the location and size of the brackets. Rhapsody is a historic route, the first of its grade, and should be on any list of "Hardest Climbs of their day". The fact that your system rejects it shows that the system is flawed.

Your list is arbitrary, and not interesting.

In reply to MikeRobbins:

Stop reading then. I think it's quite a good theme.

In reply to MikeRobbins:

i'm hurt. but i'll (very quickly) get over it.

In reply to NicholasHart:

thanks nicholas. green death was in the list originally but mr craggs came along (he is a font of knowledge) and said that 'our father' was harder (technically it is, 6b) so it was trumped.

In reply to Mick Ward:
yes I thought Footless.
but to me, a glaring ommission - no Joe Brown routes!
How can that be?

In reply to tom290483:

Ok, thats cool, apologies for not reading all of the above posts properly.

If you are going by technical grade, then:

Requium would be trumped by The Salmon E7 6c, climbed by Dawes in '84

and

Divided Years would be trumped by The Angel's Share E8 7a, also by dawes in '94


Nick

In reply to Jim at Work:


It does look like an anomaly but I guess the answer is that basically Brown operated up to E3 5c so you had one or to freak routes like Demon Rib which were as hard as anything he did. The difference is that he did hundreds of them!
If you took out Demon Rib, Bloody Slab and maybe one or two others he + Whillans would have been consistently on the list for 10-15 years.

In reply to NicholasHart:

The Masters Edge E7 6c (Ron Fawcett) was also climbed in '83

In reply to tom290483:

Well if we're talking about what WAS the hardest thing about at the time, then you should take it's actual grade, but if you want to compile a list of the route that scared people the most at the time, then you probably want it's mythical grade- hence divided years and Echo Wall get on the list.

Rhaps could well be on it, as people have tried it and repeated it and confirmed it's well hard. I'm a bit sceptical of echo wall though, as that is conveniently situated up on the Ben, where its mythical difficulty can not be confirmed or denied.

In reply to Postmanpat:
well argued - but as anomalies go, this has to be a big 'un!

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I see where your coming from. I've always thought it a bit strange that mountaineers will travel for days (sometimes weeks) to reach inaccessible peaks and then spend ages trying to scale them.
Why do rock climbers not want to walk 6miles up a path to check out echo wall?
Surely the possibility of getting a 2nd ascent of echo wall would be pretty big news, especially if you could turn round and say that macleod is actually a big softie and echo wall is "only" E8 or something like that.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
[...] I'm a bit sceptical of echo wall though, as that is conveniently situated up on the Ben, where its mythical difficulty can not be confirmed or denied.

Should Echo Wall be moved to somewhere in the Peak?

In reply to 999thAndy:

I'm merely suggesting that we should be a bit wary of christening Echo Wall 'the hardest route in the UK', when Dave Mac clearly has a very good understanding of how to play the climbing media/public.

In reply to tom290483: 2010 -2015 So far ...Long Hope Route, Macleod on Hoy, monumental. As for Macleod "playing" the climbing media - if what you are climbing is as awesome as Dave's best routes you are worthy of a little attention.

In reply to petwes:

Wall End Slab Direct (with the original RH finish) was climbed by Frank Elliott in 1930 and this now gets E2 5b. Whether it is harder than Javelin Blade (E1 5b) from the same year, I don't know.

In reply to NicholasHart:

>If you are going by technical grade, then:

Requium would be trumped by The Salmon E7 6c, climbed by Dawes in '84

The Salmon was well-overgraded at that, though. and I think has now settled at E6 (tho' Jon Read may be along in a minute to explain that this is Salmon Obvious Way and that Salmon Original Way is still E7, perhaps). Anyway, Requiem is miles harder, I'm quite sure.

Chris didn't say Our Father had a higher technical grade; he just said it was harder. Which it is. Some E4s are just harder than some E5s. That's how it is.

What grade is Quiver in the latest Cloggy guide? I rather suspect that is the earliest route which is today graded E6.

As several have said, of course, this list isn't what people would have said at the time. Cave Arete Indirect, for example, is well over-represented in these lists.

I suspect Roper's Dow routes (Black Wall and whatever the other one was called) are a contender for 1921-25. Botterill's Crack at Ilkley - when was that done? You'd be pushed to think of something earlier which feels harder today.

I've been told Javelin Blade used to be much easier than today, but I suspect that might just have been that Dennis Gray climbed a lot better in 1957 than 1997. It was regarded as a standard mountain VS for a long time, though.

Steeplejack Staircase is much the same time as Suicide Wall and quite possibly harder, although we'd need some fairly old-skool and/or crimininally-trespassing Scots to tell us.

jcm

In reply to tom290483: Central Buttress was climbed by Herford, Sansom, and Holland. Also Kern Knotts Crack at VS 4c was climbed by OG Jones and HC Bowden in April 1897, which should knock Shoulder Route off the list?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

>
Black Wall, although necky only gets HVS 5a in the current guide.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

It's only that grade now due to the polish isn't it?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Very true. It must have something to do with the 6b/V6 start as well though surely?

In reply to tom290483:

1900-1905 Kern Knotts Crack (VS,4c) FA OG Jones & HC Bowden
1906-1910 Right Twin Chimney (HVS,5a) FA Sigfried Herford
1911-1915 Central Buttress (HVS,5b) FA Herford, Sansom & Holland
1916-1920 Cave Arete Indirect (E1,5a) FA Ivar Berg
1921-1925
1926-1930 Javelin Blade (E1,5b) FA Jack Longland
1931-1935
1936-1940
1941-1945 Suicide Wall (E2,5c) FA C.Preston
1946-1950 Demon Rib (E3,5c) FA P.Harding
1951-1955
1956-1960 Goliath (E4,5c) FA Don Whillans
1961-1965
1966-1970 Our Father (E4,6b) FA Tom Proctor
1971-1975 Right Wall (E5,6a) FA Pete Livesey
1976-1980 Rays Roof (E7,6c) FA Ray Jardine
1981-1985 Requiem (E8,6b) FA Dave Cuthbertson
1986-1990 Indian Face(E9,6c) FA J.Dawes or Parthian Shot (E9,6c) FA J.Dunne
1991-1995 Divided Years (E9,6c) FA J.Dunne
1996-2000 Equilibrium (E10,7a) FA Neil Bentley
2001-2005 Doctor Doolittle (E10,7a) FA John Arran
2006-2010 Echo Wall (E?) FA Dave Macleod
2011-Present Long Hope Direct (E?) FA Dave Macleod

Two routes done in 1930: Javelin Blade and Wall End Slab Direct Original Finish. Which is harder? I've done neither.

In reply to tom290483: I'd say Wall End Slab direct is harder. Also delete Kern Knotts crack as several posters have told you already it is only VS now due to polish many early routes in 1900 were harder.

In reply to Offwidth:

put shoulder route back in there?

In reply to tom290483:
Slingsby's Crystal at Craigmore is accepted as E2 6a. I don't have my Lowland Outcrops guide to hand to check the FA date, but as the eponymous Slingsby died in 1929 it must have been extremely early for a climb of that grade.

In reply to tom290483:

Steeplejack's Staircase is a two move wonder, neither of which are difficult to work out. I 've done a lot more technical and strenuous 5b moves, and more precarious smears. It might be E2, but its not that hard.

In reply to tom290483: Id say various routes on the Alport stone including Shoulder route.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Have you done it, John? The astonishing thing is it really is E1 (and I would say 5b and not 5a). And quite serious, in that it's above a very bad landing (a very steep rocky slope). Very good chance of killing yourself if you come off it with no gear/soloing as Berg did. I'm not saying it's quite as hard as Left Unconquerable, but it's getting that way. I.e. the gap between them is not as great as one might assume.

In reply to tom290483:


Sorry to be pedant pointing out spelling mistakes but his name is Siegfried Herford.

In reply to Offwidth:
Agree.

In reply to Offwidth:
Not sure that's true, it's polished but it's anyway kinda awkward too.

Another nomination: Eagle's Nest Ridge Direct MVS 4a (1892, Godfrey Solly et al) if we're going back further still.

In reply to: walk on by english 7a, granted it is now regarded as a boulder problem but it wasnt when it was done c.1980? so surely that is harder than alot of the ones above it as you are going via technical grade?

In reply to bullybones:

Yes, that MVS is completely wrong in modern terms, when it would probably get E1 4b, done in the same style (no gear) and inferior footwear. I believe there was a very early fatality on this (attempted second ascent?)

In reply to tom290483:

For the 1952ish slot how about John Streetly's ascent of the Bloody Slab on Cloggy? Currently e3 5b, cant quite remember the exact date of FA. But a stunning effort for its day.

In reply to tom290483: am now really confused here, are you looking for routes in their original grade/form, or consensus afterwards? i.e. on stone monkey some of the grades are errrm e7 7b from memory?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Yes, quite a well-known (in his day) climber I think.

In reply to smithaldo:

good question! a bit of both i guess. some climbs have not changed grade, like wall end slab direct, its as blank now as it was then and modern gear doesnt help. javelin blade on the other hand on the crux is protected by a good nut (so i'm told anyway) and without this the climb could be easily E3 (as would have been the case for the FA).

does tech grade trump seriousness???

In reply to Toreador:

1900-1905 Kern Knotts Crack (VS,4c) FA OG Jones & HC Bowden
1906-1910 Right Twin Chimney (HVS,5a) FA Siegfried Herford
1911-1915 Central Buttress (HVS,5b) FA Herford, Sansom & Holland
1916-1920 Cave Arete Indirect (E1,5a) FA Ivar Berg
1921-1925
1926-1930 Wall End Slab Direct Original Finish (E2,5b) FA Frank Elliot
1931-1935
1936-1940
1941-1945 Suicide Wall (E2,5c) FA C.Preston
1946-1950 Demon Rib (E3,5c) FA P.Harding
1951-1955 Bloody Slab (E3,5b) FA J.Streetly
1956-1960 Goliath (E4,5c) FA Don Whillans
1961-1965
1966-1970 Our Father (E4,6b) FA Tom Proctor
1971-1975 Right Wall (E5,6a) FA Pete Livesey
1976-1980 Rays Roof (E7,6c) FA Ray Jardine
1981-1985 Requiem (E8,6b) FA Dave Cuthbertson
1986-1990 Indian Face(E9,6c) FA J.Dawes or Parthian Shot (E9,6c) FA J.Dunne
1991-1995 Divided Years (E9,6c) FA J.Dunne
1996-2000 Equilibrium (E10,7a) FA Neil Bentley
2001-2005 Doctor Doolittle (E10,7a) FA John Arran
2006-2010 Echo Wall (E?) FA Dave Macleod
2011-Present Long Hope Direct (E?) FA Dave Macleod

In reply to tom290483:


Free ascent of Vulcan by Barry Brewster or even the Neb Direct.

In reply to tom290483:
A much better option from 1900-1905 would be Botterill's Slab surely (FA 1903)? Unlike Kern Knotts, the grade (VS 4c) doesn't come from the polish.

In reply to tom290483:

re Central Buttress, here's an account of the FA:

"Herford used my shoulder as footholds. Directly he vacated them I climbed three feet higher and hung by my hands from the top of the chockstone, whilst he again employed me a footholds..."

Does this count as an HVS 5b lead?

In reply to Toreador:

Most of my leads go something like that...

In reply to Toreador:

I don't think it does. I think it would have been 5a done like that. First free ascent was by Edwards in c.1931

In reply to Toreador:

1900-1905 Botterills Slab (VS,4c) FA F.Botterill
1906-1910 Right Twin Chimney (HVS,5a) FA Siegfried Herford
1911-1915
1916-1920 Cave Arete Indirect (E1,5a) FA Ivar Berg
1921-1925
1926-1930 Wall End Slab Direct Original Finish (E2,5b) FA Frank Elliot
1931-1935
1936-1940
1941-1945 Suicide Wall (E2,5c) FA C.Preston
1946-1950 Demon Rib (E3,5c) FA P.Harding
1951-1955 Bloody Slab (E3,5b) FA J.Streetly
1956-1960 Goliath (E4,5c) FA Don Whillans
1961-1965 Vulcan (E4, 6a) FA B.Brewster
1966-1970 Our Father (E4,6b) FA Tom Proctor
1971-1975 Right Wall (E5,6a) FA Pete Livesey
1976-1980 Rays Roof (E7,6c) FA Ray Jardine
1981-1985 Requiem (E8,6b) FA Dave Cuthbertson
1986-1990 Indian Face(E9,6c) FA J.Dawes or Parthian Shot (E9,6c) FA J.Dunne
1991-1995 Divided Years (E9,6c) FA J.Dunne
1996-2000 Equilibrium (E10,7a) FA Neil Bentley
2001-2005 Doctor Doolittle (E10,7a) FA John Arran
2006-2010 Echo Wall (E?) FA Dave Macleod
2011-Present Long Hope Direct (E?) FA Dave Macleod

Its taking shape nicely. I'm guessing the war years will remain blank?

Central Buttress has been removed due to underhand tactics (or clever tactics depending how you view it). Any suggestions for a replacement?

Now for continuities sake can someone phone/email/shout at Dave Macleod and ask him to give some grades for this efforts

In reply to tom290483:

I really don't think Demon Rib should be in there, as there are huge doubts about the first ascent. Harding was with Tony Moulam (they were the only people at the crag that day, so no other witnesses). Harding did the first moves (which were apparently a bit easier then, because the ground was fully 3-4 feet higher, and a friendly grassy landing) and got stuck at the first semi-resting place/'ledge'. He then said, rather than jump off, could Tony go round to the top and lower him a top rope because he wanted to try the rest on a top rope. So Moulam went round to the top and was still fixing the belay, some distance back, when Harding's head appeared with a big grin at the top of Lone Tree Groove. I'm afraid that Moulam to his dying day said that he never believed Harding, and was convinced he'd jumped off and soloed up LTG. Of course we can never know; but I still think it's best in the circumstances not to include this in the list i.e. better to draw a veil over it.

In reply to tom290483:

1913, bachelor's butress, upper tier roaches?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

great story gordon.

In reply to Toreador:

Good call, I think its better than Shoulder Route and the HVS climbs on the Alport stone that are really highball boulder problems. I still thought there were some horrendous gullies that were harder from around 1900.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I'd add to that Suicide Wall had to be far more committing as a lead even if he did do it.

In reply to tom290483:

>Any suggestions for a replacement?

Yeah, put it back. CB was THE route of the day. If they thought it was hard then, they probably knew better than us.

Not sure about WESD, either. It really isn't very hard. From the same era there are many climbs which were far bigger leads by the standard of the time. If you want modern-day grit E2s then Curving Buttress and Count's Buttress (controversial I know) are also possibilities, the latter being much harder, the former about the same as WESD. Think those are 1930-35. 1936-40 I'd have thought Harlot Face definitely.

When was Gallows Route - 1945-50, right? I've not done that but by reputation I'd have thought it was harder than Suicide Wall (which surely wasn't 1945, was it? I thought it was post-war.)

Don Whillans was doing Demon Rib in motorcycle boots by about 1952 according to Dennis Gray, so it could go back in on that basis

Indian Face is harder than PS to judge from the number of ascents, ground-up ascents, etc. they've each had. I doubt Divided Years is the right answer either.

Doctor Doolittle is a funny one - you never hear of people trying it even on a rope. I wonder why not? Perhaps it doesn't appeal, or perhaps people just try and fail.

Vulcan's a good call! Don't think anyone's saying BB did Neb Direct free, though, are they?

I suspect that the answer for 1940-45 will turn out to be Kellett's solo ascents on Ben Nevis; up to HVS I think? Not such a high grade but probably the best that was going on.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

And btw Don Whillans' ascent of that horrid pinnacle in Skye, whose name escapes me, is given E4 now. Was that 1955? - anyway, if numbers are what you want, that might be a contender.

No-one likes Quiver for 1970-75, then?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
>
Old Man of Storr?

In reply to Franco Cookson: Yes, but he also has a very good understanding of how to climb incredibly hard trad routes and so far, he has graded them accurately (eg Rhapsody has been confirmed). I think if Dave Macleod wanted to 'play the climbing media/public', he would have just graded Echo Wall E12.

In reply to tom290483:

Aid was used on the first ascent.

It gets HVS in the 1982 guide.

In reply to tom290483:

? It's E5 in latest guides. Those (tall) old boys aren't the font of all knowledge. Btw, both are 6b, not that that is the key issue if we're using E grades as the overall measure. It might have to go in the next half decade though - the suggestion in the following link, I guess, is that Tom did it with a pile of stones first of all then went back and did it without?:

http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=1260

In reply to John Gillott:

Or both decades in a sense - Rockfax are giving it E5 however it is started (5c or 6b method).

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Agreed with the first statement. Not sure about the second. There are plenty of routes that were considered cutting edge or unjustifiable at the time but which are now graded below other routes that weren't. Stonnis Crack springs to mind for instance.

In reply to tom290483: Right Wall is about F6c, Constables Overhang is about F7a/+. Right Wall is given E5 6a, Constables is E5 6b. Both done in 1974.

Drop Right Wall from the list, is isn't the hardest route of the time.

Andy F

In reply to Furthur:

Was it? Thought it was only the same one point it's done at E4 at nowadays - bar the fact it's not done at all by sensible people, of course. Didn't someone - possibly even Dave Macleod - do this free (or maybe even try to do it free and decide discretion was better) and post on their blog how hideous it was?

jcm

In reply to andy farnell:

Well, Footless Crow is now pretty hard E5 if not E6?

When was Das Kapital? 75-80, I suspect.

jcm

In reply to John Gillott:

I think W means Winter rather than Without [pile of stones], no?

Though I think I've heard the same thing another time. Or did John A add the free start?

Still think CC is right and Our Father is harder, though!

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Oh yes, of course! (winter ascent). Not sure if it's recorded when it was first done at 6b.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: It's harder because the flake came off. I don't honestly know which would have been harder in '74.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

True. Not so convinced CO is harder than RW, by the way. I've not done it but having a nice peg right by you does make a difference!

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I suspect Our Father was the hardest route in the World when it was 1st done as the style is so unusual (futuristic). I think you could say exactly the same about Central Buttress too, even with the shoulder!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Really?

1961 John Gill The Thimble 5.12, Needles of South Dakota, first ascent of 30-foot north face, free solo, done in klettershoes, considered first 5.12a in the world and first modern highball problem, chosen as one of eight top climbing’s achievements of the XX century by "Climbing Magazine". It wasn’t until 1981 that the second ascent was done by Greg Collins.

Also what was the standard in the Czec republic then?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Footless crow has lost a crucial hold and gear I think, which is why it's not so classic. It was E5, now it's E6 6c I fink.

In reply to Offwidth:
>

Yes really

Sounds like a boulder problem.


I don't know, why do you ask.


Chris

Of course I should have added IMHO.

In reply to Chris Craggs: I was gonna say, the boulder problem sounds at best as difficult, if not a little easier.

People are generally closed-minded, so climbing advances will only follow advances in gear they use and techniques they employ. Sort of depressing to see how climbing boots, friends, proper ropes, harnesses, climbing walls and headpointing have affected climbing. Almost time someone focussed on the moves rather than the kit.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Without all the kit and the "modern approach" we would still be bumbling the stuff we could solo in complete comfort, prolly Diffs and VDiffs. Well not you of course, but the rest of us!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Some of us still are

In reply to Chris Craggs:

The Thimble's about as much of a boulder problem as Green Death is. Still, I'm not sure it's actually harder than OF. I'd have thought OF was 5.12a at least, and the pumpy modern kind rather than the old-skool balance-and-crimp kind.

Isn't the main reason (or one main reason) why it wasn't repeated for so long the fact that shortly after it was done the authorities erected some kind of railing in the car park it starts from, thus disimproving the landing very considerably? Or have I made that up - Stone Crusade, anyone?

It's an interesting question what routes, if any, were unquestionably harder than OF at the time. Off the top of my head I'd have thought Pete Cleveland's Devil's Lake routes would be of interest, and probably also some hideous crack done by Chuck Pratt somewhere. And whatever they were doing on EG/Czech sandstone, of course, and doubtless lots of other places I know nothing about. What was the hardest route in the Dolomites at that time, for example, I wonder - though perhaps one should stick to single-pitch outcrop routes for a fair comparison.

jcm

In reply to tom290483:

Not much from north of the border in these lists. I'm still waiting for somebody to pop up and tell us that Patsy Walsh put up a little known classic E6 6b in 1954!

In reply to Postmanpat:

Good call. Shibboleth's a damn' sight harder than Goliath, for a start!

jcm

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Eh? Of course it can - all it would take is a few exceptionally strong, talented climbers to have the wherewithall and determination to invest the necessary time, exactly as Dave did. A consensus grade will follow. I'm really not sure why you can't (won't?) see this.

In reply to Fraser:
It's worth pointing out that Dave Mac normally seems to be fairly frank about the slightly pencilled-in status of grades for hard routes that very few people have done.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Coming from "across the pond" I've been reluctant to join this thread, but now that the discussion has spread to include my area, I'll just add a few comments. Realistically comparing "most difficults" from almost any time period becomes an almost impossible task since no one has done all the routes, let alone in the style/conditions of the first ascent--which has to be the determinative factor--"hardest climbs of their day". But just to follow up on jcm's comments, while Gill did approach the Thimble as a boulder problem, it is surely of sufficient height to be considered a route, especially in comparison to many of the grit routes included on the list. There was a railing below the Thimble route for years (I believe it was put up after Gill's ascent) but even without, a fall from the unprotectable crux would be most unpleasant, especially in the pre-pad days. As jcm says there were other US 12s from the same era that probably pre-dated Our Father by a little bit including one at Giant City in southern Illinois and one by Greg Lowe at the City of Rocks in Idaho. Cleveland's Devil's Lake routes came slightly later, but Gill had put up several almost as hard routes there (usually solo)in the late '50s/very early '60s.and the East Germans/Czechs were surely climbing very serious routes of that difficulty even earlier. Keeping the "list" to the UK, weren't there very hard routes on the Cobbler pre-WW II? Also Cunningham's Gallows Route from '47 must be a contender as is his Bluebell Grooves (E4?) from '57 or '58.

In reply to Alan Rubin:

>Keeping the "list" to the UK, weren't there very hard routes on the Cobbler pre-WW II? Also Cunningham's Gallows Route from '47 must be a contender as is his Bluebell Grooves (E4?) from '57 or '58.

I'm not sure there were, actually. My recollection from the Jock Nimlin biography is that his routes weren't actually as highly graded as I'd expected.

Bluebell Grooves is an interesting one; at the time people don't seem to have rated it as highly as Shibboleth (or is this just Ken W's fault?!). Did it perhaps have a point of aid? You don't hear much about it now either considering how historical a route it looks to be on the face of things.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Can't agree there, though you are trying to compare (big and mildy serious) chalk with (short and wide) cheese.


Chris

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Yep, I'm aware of that and understand the stance completely. What I was trying to point out to Franco however...(who said:


...was that there is no reason why a route - just because it is more remote than the short, easily-workable grit test pieces in the Peak / Lakes - can not be repeated sufficiently frequently and a consensus reached regarding its grade. It's purely because those who could perhaps tackle Echo Wall can't be arsed to put in the necessary work. Or don't want to, but I can't imagine that's likely. When you're right at the cutting edge, why wouldn't you want to try the hardest there is?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Yes, looking in the guide BG had a point of aid (or more) and wasn't done free until 1978. And I was wrong about Old Man of Storr, too - the E4 is free (I thought it was still E4 with the original dubious peg). I bet it wasn't HVS even with a peg, but still, out it goes.

On the other hand, Quiver is E5/6 in the new guide, from 1974, so I maintain that needs to go in.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I don't think anyone has managed to repeat Whillans' route on the Old Man of Storr. And some E5 climbers have tried. As to whether it was as hard in its day (or holds have fallen off), who knows.

In reply to CragRat_Trad: in england perhaps, steeple jack staircase on salisbury crags in edinburgh was e2 and was done pre WW2 as well.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Well, logically someone must have done according to the guidebook, since that says it originally had a "dubious peg" and is now described free. Although it doesn't actually say the dubious peg was used for aid. I notice it doesn't credit the FFA either!

Having looked up at the thing once, I'm quite sure holds have fallen off it on a serial basis!

jcm

In reply to alasdair19:

Surely Steeplejack Staircase was 1946, wasn't it?

jcm

In reply to tom290483:

1961-5; another contender might be The Brush Off. E4 5c. But Vulcan wouldn't be E4 with seventeen pegs in it.

jcm

In reply to Chris Craggs: A shot in the dark here,wasn't Edge Lane quite hard in the day?

In reply to tom290483: Herford's Route on the Pagoda also dates from 1910. HVS 5a and no pushover, but I haven't done Right Twin Chimney for comparison.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Hi Andy - long time no see

Mick, Spunk & I went to have a go in June 88, but some seriously incompetent guidebook reading resulted in the FA of Staffin Face

I'd have a hard time imagining holds have not fallen off - it's the only rock I've climbed on that you can actually crush in your hand

In reply to tom290483: Great Slab (E3 5b) and Right Eliminate (E3 5c) both date from 1951. Both climbed by you-know-who.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: This is untrue. I have just re-checked my log book and can confirm that on May 8th 1949 Peter and I cycled from Burton on Trent to Black Rocks and I gave him a top rope on the unclimbed Demon Rib; we then cycled back to Burton. I next had a weeks cycling holiday and ended up in Shrewsbury where Peter was lecturing at the Technical College. On the following Friday 13th we cycled together to Burton, picked up his car and drove to the rocks. Here Peter led Demon Rib without further top roping(and the Superstitious Start to Lean Mans Superdirect and the Easy Exit from the Promontory!). I have not yet had my dying day and can only say that Peter led the route in fine style, aided only by my hand in the small of his back for the first move. I followed with rather more difficulty.
I was also present on 3rd June 1956 holding the rope when Don Whillans failed on his attempt to do the second ascent. This is mentioned in an article to be published in the next Climbers' Club Journal.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

>

he also has a very good understanding of the other hardest routes in the UK, more so than anyone else. Ben Nevis isnt Nanga Parbat, its only an hour and a half to walk in. Other than Birkett, few of the english mafia can be arsed repeating very hard scottish stuff, arrogance or fear? you decide

In reply to Erik B:

More to do with the long drive and the low-percentage weather than arrogance or fear, I think.

jcm

In reply to ajjmoulam:

>I was also present on 3rd June 1956 holding the rope when Don Whillans failed on his attempt to do the second ascent

You mean Dennis' recollections in one of his entertaining books are not accurate in every particular? Surely not!

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Yeh. I don't think many 'top' English climbers would be too scared or arrogant to lob a top rope down it, if it was at burbage.

In reply to ajjmoulam:

"The report of my death was an exaggeration" - Mark Twain, 1897.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Fascinated by this and ajjmoulam's reply; hearing the voices of those you have only heard of in books. Is there anything else to be said about DR?

In reply to robate: There was an old guidebook to Black Rocks in which I think some of the history was recorded (1949, A Guide to Black Rocks & Cratcliffe Tor, P. R. J. Harding & A. J. J. Moulam). But I don't have a copy myself and it's over 30 years since I read it, so I can't swear to what it said.

In reply to Rob Davies: Our guidebook said: "Demon Rib. 60ft. Very Severe.
Harder technically than anything else at the Black Rocks. Start beneath the overhanging rib on the left of Lone Tree Groove. Swing onto a ledge, with aid from the second, and make a very difficult pull up on very small holds until a finger crack can be reached. Layback up the crack and the flake above, then step with difficulty on to a narrow gangway leading steeply up to the left. An awkward mantelshelf at the top of the gangway leads to a break which crosses Lone Tree Groove. Cross the groove here and finish straight up the wall ahead."
We spent the rest of the afternoon doing the Superstitious Start to Lean Man's Superdirect (It was Friday 13th) and the Easy Exit from the front of the Promontory. We then went on to meet Alf Bridge in Edale for a night on Kinder Scout and a visit to Fairbrook Naze, where we repeated his "Pavlova". We wrote up our climbs on returning to Burton on Trent and sent off the manuscript to Wilfrid Noyce.

In reply to tom290483:

According to the Lowland Outcrops guidebook, Slingsby's Crystal E2 6a at Craigmore was climbed in the early 1900's. It always seems to get overlooked when these discussions come up. Surely this was a futuristic and stunning FA?

In reply to tom290483:
I'm astonished there are no J Browns in there.

In reply to coloclimber:
well he climbed this E6 in '58
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9778

but used a sling for aid

diagonal on the mot 1938, solid 4 pitches of HVS would have had very little gear and been solid in hobnail boots. llanberis guide said it was the hardest in the UK at the time.

In reply to adamki:

By 1938 rubber-soled gym-shoes would have been used for the hardest climbs (they came in to use from the early 1920s onwards).

By the way, "bobnails" were one type of nails - a bit before my time, but I think climbing boots were studded with a mixture of tricounis and clinkers.

In reply to coloclimber: Artless, although given as a John Allen route in the 70's I was under the impression that Whillans did this in the mid-50's...so at E56B? But I know it's only really a boulder problem as such...

In reply to adamki:

I have a very full first-hand account of the first ascent of Diagonal by Arthur Birtwistle that he gave to me (and I recorded on tape) in 1995 or 6. He did it in 'rubbers' and had NO gear on it (he had no pegs with him). It was a spontaneous first ascent. He was intending to repeat Kirkus's Western Rib and at the last moment decided to set off up this new line. At the top of the pitch above the groove (before the crux) he had a very poor belay on the minute ledge, with the rope just 'nestled round a shallow spike.' It was so bad that he couldn't have abseiled off it. I asked him what he would have done if hadn't managed the crux pitch. He would have climbed down. 'I never climbed anything that I couldn't climb down at a pinch' (Exact words.)

In reply to Rob Davies:


Birtwistle didn't feel he had climbed any route 'properly' until he had done it in nails. He gave me a copy of his Laddow guidebook (a treasured possession) - he had several spares, because he wrote it. In the back there is an index in which he has ticked off everything he had done. Which was everything. Most of the routes had two ticks which meant that he'd done them in nails as well. Even things as hard as Priscilla Rib.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

Really, Sean? Where did you get that impression? (not saying you didn't, just never heard it).

jcm

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Mark reckons Pat Walsh repeated it in the 60's.

In reply to tom290483:

In reply to tom290483: Wasn't Our Father first climbed in 1964 and is graded E4, 6a?

In reply to moac:

No. And no.

Mick

In reply to moac:
Why has Botterill's Slab (VS) been replaced by Parson's Chimney (HS)?

In reply to Franco Cookson:


You're really niggling about this one aren't you? That stance only makes you a sceptic, not correct.


FFS, the route is where the route is, there's nothing can be done about that. What do you mean by it other than making a snide innuendo?

Of course its difficulty can be confirmed or denied. All it takes is a few more people to climb it. Why can't (won't?) you understand that? Dave has climbed a very high proportion of the so called hardest routes in the country and reckons Echo Wall is harder.

That clearly puts him in a better position than you, I or anyone else to express an opinion on its difficulty. Have you something personal against the guy? Tell you what - why don't you go and climb it then get back to us with your opinion, once you've experienced it - successfully - at first hand, rather than pontificating from a distance and coming up with 'Meh....I don't think it's necessarily that hard'?

I'm trying hard not to make my comments a personal attack but really, if you're going to spout such nonsense, you must expect to take it on the chin in return.

In reply to Fraser:

I'm merely pointing out that everything else on the list has been tried and is confirmed as being hard. As no one has been on echo wall apart from MacCleod, it would be premature to put it on the list. In time it may well be confirmed as the hardest thing of our generation, but at the moment it's a route MacCleod says is the hardest in the UK, but is 'conveniently' situated miles away from anyone who could repeat it.

I could be wrong and the location wall could be coincidental. But I would suggest it was naive to state that it 'definitely is a coincidence'.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Franco, you disappoint me. From your other posts I'd rather admired your iconoclasm - and especially your half tongue-in-cheek passion for your home crags - and had high hopes for you. But this post reveals that a mean-spirited and bitter middle-age is potentially in store for you. For your own sake do something about it if you can.

Best wishes.

In reply to ajjmoulam:

Many thanks for taking the time to post, I have never had any doubts about the FA. of Demon Rib, though some modern 'revisionistas' have long grumbled. The same goes for Escape and Nutcracker at Cratcliffe.

Chris

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Well I think the bulk of the UKC readers will know whose considered opinions to have more faith in - someone who has done the route (and many other top end climbs in the country) or some snide little wannabe kid with little experience in the grand scheme of things.

Do you agree that your statement that "its mythical difficulty can not be confirmed or denied" is in fact plain wrong, for the reasons I gave earlier and which you now say "...may well be confirmed as the hardest thing of our generation"?

And when you say "I'm a bit sceptical of echo wall though, as that is conveniently situated up on the Ben," don't you with hindsight now think you're just being a whining little baby? Do you seriously think someone of Dave's calibre would deliberately choose to do a remote route simply to reduce the likelihodod of potential second ascentionists making the same journey? If so, that's really a bit pathetic. These guys want other wads on their routes to confirm the grade and quality of the lines they seek out, clean, work and ultimately send.

TWOL wasn't exactly handy for Dave to pop down and try, was it? Why don't others come north and try Echo Wall? I'll tell you why - they can't be bothered to put in the necessary effort for the risk of not ticking it.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Given that Dave has put the effort in to travel from Fort William down to Devon to repeat Walk of Life, and to Ireland to repeat Divided Years etc etc etc, it's a bit rich to suggest that it's too far to travel for anyone capable of having a go at repeating Echo Wall. That no one has made the effort is hardly Dave's fault, so for you to suggest that he's overstated its difficulty for the publicity is pretty pathetic.

In reply to Fraser:

You beat me to it!