UKC

There was a thread some time back about
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=467447&v=1#x6479629 with various people pointing out that there are have been a number of cases of people getting their heads bashed while sport climbing (inverting in falls or having things dropping on their heads).

The angle of this thread is different: why do few people wear helmets sport climbing, whether leading or belaying or both? (I usually wear one for belaying and rarely wear one for leading). Is it
- Reasonable calculation of low risk (very low probability of serious injury/death)
- Conformity (anchoring in what the group does to fit in) despite a low but still substantial probability of serious injury/death)
- Personal experience (not having witnessed or not having experienced a sport climbing head injury)

The most important elements in making it more reasonable to not wear a helmet while sport climbing seem to me to be when the route is more overhanging, well bolted, on solid rock and belayed by someone who knows what they are doing. When it gets less steep, more run out, on more friable rock and with a less expert belayer, the helmet makes more sense.

FWIW I usually wear one for sport belaying and rarely wear them for leading unless it's less steep etc.

I think conformity plays a big part in the actual pattern more generally, so there will be a tipping point towards wearing them once it becomes 'normal'. The pressure of conformity means that a great deal of supposed rationality is actually rationalisation (I am not suggesting that I am immune to that).

To put the pattern simply, in most cases people don't wear helmets sport climbing because most other people don't, and people hope/think the accident won't happen to them. But if they have or see a sport climbing accident in which a helmet would have helped or did help, they'll probably wear them regardless.

In reply to ericinbristol:
I don't usually wear a helmet sport climbing because

1) Sport routes are generally quite steep so I'm unlikely to go bashing into anything.
2) I always wear a helmet for trad/winter,etc so putting one on means I'm in 'trad/mountaineering mode' (OMG don't fall off etc etc), without one I feel much more comfortable sport climbing. As stranage as that sounds

In reply to ericinbristol:

I've started wearing a helmet more often when sport climbing (but by no means all the time). This is partially due to a feeling of "why not wear it if I have it" but also coupled to a few incidents I have seen. The first was when I ripped off a finishing jug on a route at Swanage, giving a big fall for me (into space) but a showering of rock for the people at the base of the crag (including a friend who was smugly wearing the brand new helmet we told him there was no need for!). I have also seem some big inverted falls off another (poorly bolted) route, which could have been nasty and held a huge inverted fall where my partner ended up upside-down face to face with me, banging his head on the rock - he had just put on a helmet before setting off for no apparent reason, but I think we were both glad he did!

I tend to wear a helmet where there is suspect rock, or on routes with stepped roofs where there is a higher chance of getting the rope behind my leg when moving. I don't tend to wear one on more solid crags, or on steady angled terrain.

In reply to ericinbristol: Cos helmets aren't cool.

In reply to ericinbristol:

Well put.

To go deeper into your argument though: if people don't wear a helmet when sport climbing because they've never seen a sport climbing accident, that argument suggests that sport climbing accidents are rarer? (because fewer people see them)

My personal experience experience is that I've (unfortunately) seen tens of accidents happen to trad climbers, where a helmet was (at least potentially) a very useful thing to have indeed. Yet I've yet to see a single nasty injury in sport climbing (and I do a lot more of the latter that the former these days).

For the record, I wear a helmet always on trad and for sport multipitch, but never for single-pitch sport climbing (for exactly the reason you mention).

In reply to McGuinness:

For now: that's the conformity argument. If the tipping point is passed it could reverse, with no helmet being uncool for a lot of sport climbing situations, though not all (very overhanging, well bolted, solid rock etc).

In reply to ericinbristol: Perhaps many sport climbers have started in the climbing wall where it would be 'wierd' to see someone wearing a helmet but where theres still a risk of inverting and hitting your head (although climbing wall aint as hard as rock).

In reply to Alun:

I wasn't taking a position on whether sport climbing accidents where helmets did make / could have made a difference are rarer than trad ones. It's a good question. My impression is that sport climbing is indeed relatively safe on this front for the leader at least.

I meant that few people who go sport climbing have seen a sport climbing accident where a helmet did/would have made a big difference and that combines with the conformity (uncool) factor to make for few helmets being worn.

In Cheddar, I had so many near misses while belaying (falling rocks) that I wear a helmet pretty much as standard for that now.

In reply to mark20:

Agree with your (2) - I climb like a trad climber when I have a helmet and double ropes, even on multipitch sport, whereas climb a lot more like a sport climber even on trad if I'm on a single rope with no helmet...

In reply to ericinbristol:

We are developing still active quarries on Bornholm, Denmark into sport crags, and as there are plenty of loose rocks we encourage the use of helmets at all times.

In reply to ericinbristol:

I was climbing recently @ Toix in Spain and even @ that well worked crag someone managed to send down a rock the size of a football. It landed about 6 foot away from our chosen lunch spot. Needless to say we all put our helmets on for the rest of lunch and kept them on after. Still wear one but I do get funny looks from those who haven't experienced the thud of a falling block a few feet away from them. If you fall when leading the impact is the same.

In reply to ericinbristol:

Beats me. Try this for an example:

At the beginning of October I set off up Crow, at Cheddar. I wore a helmet and so did my partner. Judging by the absence of chalk, it may well have been the first ascent of the season and so prime time for any rocks loosened by summer plant growth. Shortly after we started, another party set off up the same route. They too were both wearing helmets.

Near the top of the penultimate pitch, so about 380 feet above the ground, my partner's foothold collapsed into a number of mug-sized blocks. Friends higher up the Gorge heard the four of us shouting 'Below', several times over as it took the blocks some time to reach the ground. Here they landed around (but not on) two sport climbers who had chosen to climb directly under us. They weren't wearing helmets (not that they'd have helped much) but, more remarkably, they elected not to move elsewhere and continued, despite direct demonstration of the hazards.

Natural selection?

In reply to nniff:

I was there when that happened! I. was on a route just to the right. I got up it and off as fast as I could then belayed off to the side, helmet on...

I have often wondered this. So few people routinely wear helmets. There should be no "calculation of risk" imo, people should just wear them regardless. Boulderers too - boulderers surround themselves my teams of people bracing to catch them, but never stick a helmet on, even hanging upside down.

When you get on a bike you don't think twice about wearing a helmet, climbers need to stop being so vain and self conscious and just put it on!

In reply to adsheff:


Totally disagree.

There is a theory in psychology that when people adopt safety measures (like driving heavier SUVs, or wearing helmets) that they subjectively feel safer, and hence take more risks. Where people have an over inflated perception of how much protection a helmet actually offers, I think you can actually increase the risk you are exposed to, in many situations. There is plenty of scientific evidence that people do in fact adopt greater risk taking in their behaviour in these sorts of circumstances, but you don't have to look far for everyday examples:

For example (sorry to single this one out):
In reply to carlo:


A helmet is not going to offer any protection in the event of being hit by a rock the size of a football. A better solution would be to go and eat lunch somewhere you are not in the line of fire.

I would contend that blindly assuming that helmets make you invulnerable to rock fall can, sometimes, expose you to more risk than not wearing one.

In reply to adsheff:

I assume this includess during activities such as crossing the road, driving a car, walking back from the pub after one pint too many

In reply to Ian Patterson:
I was talking about a specific activity, you're just being facetious

In reply to adsheff:


Totally disagree. There is a small (impossible to quantify) chance of a helmet preventing some injuries in the event of a fall.

There is a tiny ( impossible to quantify) increase in the likelihood of a fall due to the extra weight of a helmet.

In the event of a fall there are many, many ways you can be seriously injured (some fatal) where a helmet will offer no protection.

It's a complex decision & we have zero info to go on.

In reply to adsheff:

Are you actually a climber? Seems a bizarre statement if you are. Surely everything we do as climbers is a calculation of risk.

In reply to ericinbristol:

Glad we didn't hit you!

In reply to Monk:
I am a climber and when I climb outdoors I wear a helmet to protect my head. What is bizarre about that?

In reply to ericinbristol:
It's also a fashion thing - when I started climbing (late 1960's) helmets were rare but became a must have for all but the "hard men" it seemed.
By the mid 70's they were worn almost universally.
As helmets evolved they got more uncomfortable and heavier to conform with unhelpful regulations and less popular as a consequence.
By the mid 80's only a few strange folk wore them.
Now, as has been pointed out already, there are two camps, sport climbers who don't wear them and the rest (trad, winter, alpine) who do.
These fashions have conformed to what I do as a rule, but last year I realised a) I'm not immune to injury and b) helmets are now so lightweight they are no heavier than a haircut , so I wear one all the time now.
If you want to be fashionable (and alive) then just follow me!!!

In reply to adsheff:

Well, you've made an implicit assessment of risk in not choosing to wear one indoors, for one. Why did you decide that?

Bouldering on a roof section indoors you're far less likely to have spotters, and even onto matting a fall head first could have consequences. Similarly leading indoors a rope hooked around a leg could still lead to inversion.

It's a nonsense to say there shouldn't be any risk assessment when it comes to helmets when you've already made one in going bare-headed at the wall.

In reply to ericinbristol:

I also want to add that I think any campaign to promote sensible choices over helmet wearing is done a massive disservice by the continual tedious assertion, usually from the pro-helmet lobby, that the only reasons for choosing not to wear a helmet are conformity or vanity.

I applaud the BMC for being sensible about the issue but it seems their approach is too nuanced for some.

In reply to adsheff:

Yes I do. I don't agree with the attitude that certain activities require a helmet whatever the circumstances. I've always worn one for trad and sport, but then I've only climbed at crags which are known for rock fall (and I've witnessed enough to verify this).

In reply to adsheff:

Your dogmatic attitude is what I find bizzare. Why don't you wear a helmet indoors? What consequences are any different indoors to an outdoor single pitch crag? And what advantages do you see for boulderers wearing helmets?

In reply to Monk: Indoor walls don't have heavy things falling down from on high, last I checked

In reply to adsheff:

Neither does Stanage.

In reply to Quiddity:
I feel you're all nit-picking now. Fair enough. Either way it comes down to vanity. Do some boulderers take their tops off because they are hot, or because they want to show off their muscles?

If you want to risk yourself by all means do it, but if your accident will mean some mountain rescue team has to risk themselves to come and collect you body parts, then that is selfish vanity

In reply to adsheff:

"Indoor walls don't have heavy things falling down from on high, last I checked."

I thought I'd seen carabiners, belay plates, alun key hold-tighteners, and climbers fall from above when indoors... must of imagined it though.

In reply to Offwidth:

I've never seen anything other than people attached to ropes fall, you must be going to a dangerous wall. Top tip: don't stand underneath people climbing

In reply to adsheff:


No, it's just I believe that climbing is all about assessing risk, making choices, and taking personal responsibility, not about switching your brain off, adopting dogmatic rules and making blind assumptions.

Would you care to respond to my post of 14.33?

In reply to adsheff:

Nit picking is where you pick at small irrelevant pieces of someones argument, not drive buses through the logical inconsistencies in it!

Those who know me would know that if I choose to not wear a helmet it's got nothing to do with vanity - that requires having something worth being vain about

Ps helmets indoors - I got dropped a while ago at a wall and landed on my belayers head. The mild concussion and massive bruising he acquired should hopefully make you rethink your rash and vain behaviour in not wearing a helmet whilst belaying indoors.

In reply to ericinbristol: Haven't read thread so apologies for any repetition. I'm really surprised to hear you usually wear a helmet when belaying on sport: is this not illogical i.e. the bigger risk is injury whilst leading on sport? Then you say you only wear them on sport when it's steep. Again, this seems strange as that's when you're least likely to hit something.

As for the general point, I remain bemused by the idea that trad necessitates helmets and sport is 'safe' and therefore doesn't require a helmet. There are categories of climber who will never fall and the helmet, save where debris might come down, is 'redundant'. The issue of trad / sport here is irrelevant.

Some climbers won't fall on trad but may be more tempted to do this on sport. Many of these people will wear helmets on trad whilst not on sport. This I simply don't understand; there is way more risk of injury with repeated falls in the sport environment than there is on what is probably well-protected and hardly ever fallen off trad.

By extension many more people should therefore wear helmets on sport. I guess this must come down to personal choice, a misunderstanding of risk, lack of knowledge about what a helmet does or conformity.

In reply to ksjs:

You should try sport climbing around Bristol - belaying wearing a helmet is a very sensible decision. The crags are often far from solid.

In reply to adsheff:


What is it that makes you assume that I am more exposed to risk, or more likely to have an accident, than you - and am therefore somehow more morally culpable than you to a hypothetical mountain rescue team?

How can you possibly know that my decision not to wear a helmet some of the time puts me more at risk irrespective of the context of the innumerate differences in my behaviour than yours - on the crag or off?

This is not nit picking, this is the nub of the issue.

In reply to ericinbristol:

So, I have two helmets - one with a hard shell for winter when it predominantly defelcts lumps of ice.

I also have a lightweight foam-based one that I wear for cragging. On grit I wear it primarily should a minor fall to the ground before the first runner lead to a tumble and a head banged on a boulder. I used to have a friend who slipped and fell 10 feet, banged his head and died.

On larger routes, I wear it primarily as some protection agaist small falling objects. If it's a big falling object, I'm stuffed.

Sport climbing - it depends what the crag looks like really. If the truth be known, I don't wear one that often, but there again I only go sport climbing as a last resort.

In reply to adsheff:

"I've never seen anything other than people attached to ropes fall, you must be going to a dangerous wall."

Maybe I'm a bit older than you, been indoors on more sessions and pay more attention? Anyway, those eggs are soft and delicious.

In reply to adsheff:

Which just goes to show how ill-thought out your rationale is. I've seen as much stuff dropping at indoor walls (including a very near miss from a quickdraw) as I ever have at somewhere like Stanage. Plus indoor walls are far more crowded environments, and the risk of inversion is just as high indoors as out.

Basically, what you are saying is that you have made a decision based on your own assessment of the risks... Which I am sure is what you originally said wasn't necessary.

In reply to Quiddity:
I don't think it is. The nub of the issue is that people are scared to look silly in front of others, or think the helmet doesn't look cool or whatever. Just put it on and stop complaining. I bet you're one of these people who think speed cameras are unfair.

In reply to adsheff:

would you care to respond to my post of 14.33 without resorting to ad hominem attacks? (I don't own a car)

In reply to Quiddity:

The notion of not using safety equipment because it makes you act more dangerously it nonsensical. That's like saying if they had had no lifeboats on the titanic they would have steered it more carefully and not sunk!

In reply to Quiddity: Do you work in Currys?

In reply to adsheff:

So according to you the Nub of the issue includes 'whatever' ?

In reply to adsheff:


It is counterintuitive but there is some reason to believe that it may, in fact, be the case.

This is widely talked about when it comes to, as it happens, cycle helmets.

for example:
http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/7/2/89.full

In reply to adsheff:
I wear my helmet most of the time.
However. The people you are arguing with are talking sense.
Why don't you leave it there and go away and have a bit of a think?

In reply to adsheff:
No it isn't, the idea of risk compensation is pretty well accepted.

In reply to Curious Yellow: I just want them to admit that they don't wear it because they are too macho and scared of looking silly.

In reply to adsheff:

You mean because that would be your only concern, you assume the same for others?

In reply to adsheff:

I refer you to my post of 15.01

In reply to adsheff:

I wear a beanie hat over my helmet when bouldering sometimes (no joke), I'm so macho and scared of looking silly.

In reply to all:
As the OP of the linked thread re my lucky escape (please read before spray posting replies), with a few decades of climbing across all disciplines:

1. I just don't buy the idea that these days some climbers eschew helmets due to peer pressure or to look cool. This has not been true for any of the climbers I've met for a very long time. I can see how a long time ago climbers' reluctance to wear the old heavy and awkward fibreglass helmets because they were a genuine restriction on climbing performance may have been misconsrued as needing to look cool, but this no longer applies with modern light and well designed foam type helmets.

2. Climbing is indeed all about risk assessment and management. A blanket compulsion on helmets defeats the whole principal or risk assessment. For example wearing an old style helmet when deep water soling would dramaticaly increase the risk of drowning (as it fills with water making it impossible to lift head above water) Or using old brittle alpine type helmets for sport climbing, which may have little or no effective back of head protection for an inverted sports climbing type fall.

3. Many of the above posts on this thread miss my original point: Of course Multi pitch routes like Crow or sport climbs on loose non-overhanging cliffs present objective dangers justifying a helmet which don't apply to many higher quality/grade sports climbing crags.

4. The often understated risk of an injury to the back of the head applies more to sport climbing than trad climbing (if only because one is more likely to fall on one's hard sport climb than one's hard trad climb). This is the reason why I believe climbers should consider a suitable type of helmet for hard (to them) singe pitch sports climbs.

In reply to adsheff:

Or like saying 'why lead when you can top-rope...'

In reply to adsheff:

The problem with that line of thinking is that I do wear a helmet most of the time.

It's not the wearing or not of helmets that we are questioning, simply your dogma.

In reply to Monk: OK I take it all back I apologise

In reply to kevin stephens:

For the record I think this is the single most sensible post on this thread.

In reply to adsheff:

However there is no doubt that they plowed on at speed even after iceberg warnings because the Titanic was "unsinkable".

People's attitude to risk definitely depends on how safe they feel. Try this little experiment, you can even just do it as a thought experiment. Run down the road as fast as you dare carrying something unbreakable - maybe some cushions. Now run down the road as fast as you dare with the same weight of your best china - bet you go more slowly and carefully.

In reply to adsheff:

I don't wear one if I don't think I'm going to fall off, for the same reason that I sometimes don't use a rope if I'm sure I'm not going to fall off.

You do realise that your 'you're being irresponsible and inconveniencing the taxpayer' argument could equally be (and often is) used by self-righteous backbenchers against all climbing per se?

It's nothing to do with being macho, it has everything to do with having some part of your life where you make the rules.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Just to add a layer, I sometimes make my belayer wear my helmet if they don't have one. It's only fair if I dislodge rocks and it means they are still conscious to belay me too. Selfish reasons really.

I do think that helmets on boulderers might be a sensible thing at times and yet have never seen a single boulderer wear a helmet in person.

I have also wondered when helmets indoors will become compuslary due to risk assessment and insurance companies. It will happen I'm sure.

On the macho note, climbers are well known for their poor fashion sense (80's tight leggings), torn down jackets strewn with gaffa tape, stinking clothes & shoes, chalk smeared faces, woolen socks and sports sandles, whimpering like a scared school child when above their ancient, crag swag
gear etc etc. Looking around, many of us are geeks and oddballs who are also into cycling, paddling & caving (which all wear lids too). I sometimes struggle to find the cool kid amongst us.

Time for another ale me thinks.

K

In reply to ericinbristol:

i guess its a bit like cycling with a helmet ? Health and Safety surrender monkeys ? although i am sure the sames was true with motor bike and seat belts ?

In reply to Kevster:


Not in person, but Kevin Jorgeson sometimes wears them on highball stuff - so that's at least one....

In reply to ericinbristol: i knew somebody who had his helmet surgically removed. But I think we may be talking about an all together different helmet here

In reply to Monk:

A few weeks ago I had a foot slip on a bouldering wall indoors at a point where my face was close to the surface of the wall. Result - slightly dazed, lots of blood, a trip to get patched up and a small scar above my eye. Nothing serious but if I'd been wearing my helmet the energy was so low that I'd have hardly noticed anything had happened. Helmets can be useful for the small accidents as well as the big ones.

I still don't wear the helmet indoors but maybe that is social pressure outweighing logic.

In reply to adsheff:

"I have often wondered this. So few people routinely wear helmets. There should be no "calculation of risk" imo, people should just wear them regardless."

Climbing is all about calculation of risk. Why should helmets be any different?

"When you get on a bike you don't think twice about wearing a helmet"

Correct. I don't, indeed, think once about wearing one. I just don't wear one for cycling; never have other than for Scout activities where the rules require me to (I have a cheapo one for that purpose). The risk of injury is low enough that I am happy without one, and I prefer not having things on my head.

Per the other thread, I often *do* wear one outdoor climbing.

Neil

In reply to adsheff:

"I don't think it is. The nub of the issue is that people are scared to look silly in front of others, or think the helmet doesn't look cool or whatever. Just put it on and stop complaining."

The reason I don't like wearing helmets (or indeed any kind of hat) has nothing to do with what I happen to look like. It's more to do with comfort (on the other thread someone suggested I should try one of the latest lightweight helmets, and maybe I indeed should) and overheating.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

You are wasting your time, Neil. The notion that non-wearers only do it to look cool is very, very important to helmet-wearers and no amount of denial by non-wearers will detach them from it in the smallest degree.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

The worst thing is that I'm not a non-wearer (of climbing helmets, rather than bicycle ones which I generally don't bother with) - I just don't *always* wear one.

In reply to Kevster:


Totally agree. I find the same comedy (being a cyclist as well as a climber) with those trying to look cool - you will never look cool wearing skin tight lycra. Fact. Regardless of your super cool 15lb carbon road bike

Oh and for my two pennies I wear a helmet always for outdoors climbing and cycling but not indoor climbs - in reality I should probably wear one indoors but I choose not too...

In reply to ericinbristol:

I saw some large rocks get dislodged from above the routes at the Cheyne Wears area of Portland a few years ago and miss people by a matter of metres. Nobody was wearing helmets. Despite everything above the crag being loose.

In reply to ericinbristol:

Aldi has the answer for just £3.99 and boulderers and sports climbers can still look cool:

http://www.aldi.co.uk/uk/html/offers/special_buys3_23308.htm?WT.mc_id=2012-...

In reply to ericinbristol:

Having had my head cut open by a big dinner plate of rock, which came off without warning from a solid-looking hand jam when sport climbing, I always try to wear one these days. I didn't realise I'd hurt myself until the blood started streaming down my face. The rock also just missed a couple of friends who were stood around half watching at the bottom. At the time I think I was taken in by the fact that nobody around was wearing a helmet (I don't do a lot of sport, so probably thought I'd just do what everyone else was doing).

I almost always wear one for trad, so can't think of a good reason not to for sport, apart from 'helmet hair'. Given a choice of vanity versus a much higher risk of death and all the pain it brings for the people connected to you, helmets seem a no-brainer.

Seeing a close friend die where lack of a helmet could have been a factor also gives you a different perspective on these things.

In reply to ericinbristol:

Hearing about a de-gloving head injury at Horseshoe = Diluted wearing helmet whilst sport climbing, Simples!

In reply to Chris Sansum:

But then I go soloing on big cliffs from time to time, which seems like it turns the argument on its head. I guess it is about reducing overall risk - if you're doing hundreds of normal roped climbs a year it is good to stack the odds in your favour a bit. A few solos seems like an acceptable risk whereas hundreds of roped climbs without a helmet doesn't (rocks do come off without warning pretty often!).

In reply to adsheff:

If you spend enough time there you'll find counter-examples.

Heaviest thing I've seen falling from on high at an indoor wall was a climber (not sure if wearing a helmet would help much with that), followed by a full water bottle. Have also seen mobile phones, keys, coins, quickdraws and belay devices fall from high up on indoor walls, and I wouldn't really want to be hit on the head by any of those (but I still choose to go without a helmet indoors).

For me, it depends on the stone I'm climbing.

Sandstone? Always a helmet (can't really count how many times something broke and nearly smashed into me)

Limestone? In the frankenjura, I never wear a helmet, unless I know the rock is really loose where I am. Been there quite often, so I know my way around.

Sand-Limestone? Depends. For example, in St. Lègere I'd climb without (routes >7a, a lot of climbers, hard stone)
in Buoux I've climbed with helmet.

And yes, I think it is the calcuable risk. When alpine climbing, I don't know what happens 200m above me. When sports climbing, most times I can see what is above me, and decide for myself how dangerous it is.

I always wear one when I'm out with my youth group. They have to, too.
Don't think this is a conformity issue, though.

I wear a helmet indoors when leading.

People look at me like I'm a weirdo. But you know, even hitting your head walking through a door frame hurts like hell. I own one and since every sport I do involves helmets its more natural to me.

I do wonder...In todays metrosexual culture, I suspect some just don't want to mess up their hair!

In reply to needvert:

Oh yeah...Even a small amount of brain damage could severely impact my goals of making lots of $$$ while hardly working.

In reply to ericinbristol:

I started wearing a helmet in sport climbing as the freeze thaw effect around swanage and portland has left some loose rock and a few times I have had some near misses with large bit's being pulled off by the climber while I am belaying. If I don't wear a helmet and use a self locking device while belaying and get hit by a rock, my climber will fall. If my belayer isn't wearing a helmet or using a self locking device and I knock off a rock onto him, I will fall. I would like neither of these things to happen.

If the crag is busy, you don't know how knowledgeable the climber above you nearby is of the quality of rock and may put their feet on anything and knock it off, it could cut the rope or hit someone climbing below. This has happened on a few occasions as we all know.

Sometimes a helmet will save us, sometimes it won't. But why take the chance or risk the safety of your climber?

I don't usually wear a helmet climbing unless the crag is very busy and there are people climbing high routes above me, but then I don't lead climb hard routes so not much potential to fall.

Looking cool should not be an issue here, how cool will you look if an accident does happen.

Of course it is personal opinion, and as long as you consider the safety of yourself and the people around you and realise that not everyone at the crag has a concept of the dangers of loose rock then that should be enough. If you want your belayer to wear a helmet for YOUR own safety then just don't climb with them unless they do and vice versa.

There is a lot of loose rock on the cliffs, may as well not risk it. Although other areas of the country may be fine.

In reply to adsheff:


Check again.
jk

In reply to jkarran:

Not anywhere near as often as on rock, particularly not trad.

As with my general view on these debates, I don't bother with one indoors because I don't think it's necessary. However, I would never suggest that anyone who decided they did need one had made a wrong decision.

Neil

In reply to needvert:

"I do wonder...In todays metrosexual culture, I suspect some just don't want to mess up their hair!"



You've clearly not met me. My hair is a mess whether it's had a helmet on it or not.

Neil

In reply to ericinbristol:

I've changed my mind over the years, after seeing one too many inverted leader fall and one too many near misses from stone fall.

This video of a guy going inverted after getting pumped and deciding to jump off but not getting one foot off cleanly is a good advert for helmets (he was lucky and just bashed his back):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5Sb8ZMNx1k&feature=related

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

So a really good argument for wearing back protectors then?

In reply to winhill: Aldi always has a sensible option

In reply to ericinbristol: So I'm going sport climbing outdoors for the first time pretty soon. Been climbing indoors for a year or so, done a bit of leading there more recently, also done top roped stuff down at Southern Sandstone. I'm going to Portland in a couple of weeks and very high on the list of gear for me was a pair of helmets (one for me and one for the wife).

I don't usually make decisions based entirely on anecdotal evidence, but there seems little choice on this issue and I have a couple of friends who climb a lot and have had the experiences where there helmet has saved their life.

For me, the possibility of falling before getting past the first bolt, and the chance of being hit by rock fall when belaying has to be considered alongside the severity of the consequences of an accident. So its an easy choice to make, for me. This is why helmet on is the default stance.

As for the risk compensation theory.. it is very interesting, and I'm sure true up to a point, but there is also a risk associated with fear. There is a higher chance of falling when you are afraid to fall. Every climbing book I've read says this and I've experienced it even in my own super green way. If you get into a place on a climb where you are afraid to fall, pretty good chance you are going to wind up falling.

Anyway, thanks everyone who has posted here. Has made me think. In particular though, about why I have never, at any of the eight different climbing walls I've visited seen anyone other than a child wearing a helmet... Even the instructors on the NICAS courses making the children wear their helmets...

In reply to collywob:
All instructor that help out with childrens courses should be wearing helmet.
I took control over a family party once, there were both parents and 2 kids. As the rules stat the the kids had to wear helmets, I said to the kids " don't you think that mum and dad should wear them too". To which the kids said yes with big smiles, both parents were happy to wear them. And in fact did ask why so few climbers wore them indoors.

In reply to Quiddity:
On the contrary My Petzel Elios protected me when I was hit on the head by a rock the size of a football and it didn't even have a mark on it. My partner got a hole the size of a 50p piece in his helmet but didn't have any head injuries.

In reply to cas smerdon:

Well, someone had to do this. A size 5 football as used by FIFA has a circumference of 70cm +/- 1cm. That gives it a volume of 1843cc.

Llimestone varies but weighs on average 2,500kg per cubic metre.

So, 2,500/1,000,000x1843 means a football of limestone would weigh 4.6 kg appx.

Hope it didn't fall too far!

In reply to ericinbristol:
I never used to wear a helmet for the first five or ten years of my climbing career. Until my mate inverted at Milstone Edge and got severe brain damage. Seeing a good friend with an inch deep hole in his skull and severe epilepsy soon makes you change your mind. I've worn a helmet ever since - you won't progress very far in life if you don't learn from the fatal errors of others.

In reply to Oceanrower:

Err, by my reckoning it gives a volume of 5790cc. (diam = circ/pi)



Or (with my figures), it gives a weight of 14.47kg, which sort of sounds more likely for a 'football of stone' IMO.

Or am I wrong too?! :-/

In reply to Fraser:
Should have added, rad. = 11.14, and vol. = 4/3 x pi x rad. cubed.

In reply to Fraser: Nope. Your maths is far better than mine tonight.

So, how far can 14.5kg fall without damaging someones noggin? (with or without the helmet!)

In reply to Oceanrower: Had fallen about 4 metres when it hit me, another 20 maybe before it hit my partner along with a load more rocks that hit my rucksack on my back and broke 3 ribs. Hit me so hard I was surprised it didn't knock my head off but there wasn't a mark on the helmet. A lightweight one would have been smashed to pieces.

I agree 100%. I also didn't wear a helmet in my early days, very uncool etc. But age makes you think more rationally & I've worn one for over 20 years now. The human skull is an just an eggshell, some bits are very thin. Your friend was lucky (in a perverse way). In a non climbing incident I witnessed a 3 ft fall which resulted in death due to a compressed skull fracture, the worst 5 days of my life. Shit happens, but £40 & looking uncool is a small price to pay for your life. I refuse to climb with anyone who doesn't wear a helmet, because although the risk is small, I couldn't look their partner, kids or parents etc in the eye if the worst happened........& sometimes it does.

In reply to Barrington: Also helmets come in such a range of shapes and colours these days there must be one that you could consider 'cool' enough to wear. They are certainly light enough and well ventilated these days. Another excuse for gear shopping as well

In reply to string arms: You tone lowerer you

Whilst i see no reason to not wear one, apart from hitting my head on roofs from not taking account of my increased height, i havent put mine on more than twice since buying it a few years ago. I suppose i've been lucky not to have or witness an incident to change my mindset on it. Its well travelled just in case i get somewhere with loose rocks.

Why is it that any day on Stanage for instance, ignoring the instructor led groups, i'd estimate 10% of climbers wear one? If its such a no brainer (no pun intended) to wear one, why do the vast majority not include them as a necessary piece of kit?

In reply to antdav:Probably for the same reasons that most people never wore car seat belts. They were fitted by law in the early 60s, but even when I learned to drive in 1981 wearing one was rare (particularly amoungst yonger males, me included), even though the benefits of wearing one in an accident were pretty obvious.
The vast majority of the time you get away with slips & minor falls, but every now & again.... Getting inverted in a small fall is credible & if it happens you could be really f***ed!
Humans are pretty poor at assessing risk: Ever bought a lottery ticket? There's approx 1:14,000,000 chance of winning, but we all say "somebody has to" & throw £1 away. I'd say there was a much higher chance than that of a head injury from a fall without a helmet.
Still, at the end of the day, it's everybodys own choice though.

In reply to Barrington:

I think you're missing the point. Most people wish to reduce the risk of travelling in a car as much as possible. The purpose is usually to get from A to B as safely as possible.

Climbing clearly isn't about that. It's about deliberately placing yourself at completely unnecessary risk. How much risk is up to you, but it's always more than staying at home or going for a walk. Some people want a tiny frisson of risk and are happy top-roping wearing a helmet. Some people want lots of risk and solo big hard routes where a single slip is certain death. Most of us operate somewhere in the middle most of the time.

As part of tailoring the level of excitement/risk we feel like on a particular day, we might wear a helmet, depending on the sort of climbing. Then again, on that day, we might not.

In reply to Barrington:

With a mathematics background I think I'm pretty decent at assessing risk / probablity which is why I've never bought a lottery ticket!

In the last 12 years I've basically sport climbed (plus a bit of bouldering). During that time I've seen no head injuries despite spending a very significant time at busy crags such as Malham / Kilnsey and almost nobody wearing helmets. In fact the only serious injury from a fall that I've seen is a broken leg in a fall off consenting adults (and that was on TV not in person). I also mountain bike - in the same period I've seen a significant number of minor to major injuries to both head and other areas despite spending lots less time biking and almost everybody who bikes wearing helmets. That's why I don't wear a helmet climbing and do when biking, it's a very simple risk assessment.

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Hi Ian,

In your risk assesment - over your projected lifetime climbing what do you estimate your probability of sustaining head injury is ?

I'm curious because humans are notorious for extrapolating risk from very few observations. Like "I'm a safe driver because I've never run anyone over (yet)" argument - totally missing the point that you hope that the liklihood of ever knocking anyone over is tiny so you would expect the majority of people to not have knocked anyone over. Even if the probability was as high as 5% of drivers will knock someone over.

In reply to GrahamD:

I would estimate risk of sustaining moderate to major head injury over the rest of my climbing lifetime (20 years?) to be very small - 12 years experience sport climbing regularly I've seen no head injuries sport climbing directly, only one person I know has suffered a moderate head injury (Kevin who posted on this thread) so if you're asking me to guess then less than 2% for moderate, much less than that for major.

Trad climbing in the 80s / 90s I saw a few more injuries and I imagine if I started trad climbing again I might choose to wear a helmet.

More importantly I'd judge that the risk of injury from biking is much greater than than climbing so if I want to significantly reduce my risk I should bike less! From my climbing perspective it's pretty clear that the greatest risk of dehebilitating injury that I have is from training injuries, I've already ready had elbow an knee problems, my fingers don't look great and shoulders are a bit dodgy!

In reply to Ian Patterson:

I'm interested to read that. I'm sure if others thought (and really believed) the probability was as high as 2% they might reconsider. I don't think many people are that rational though.

In reply to GrahamD:

Not sure I agree with 'as high as', for background the chart here:

http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/94/11/799/F2.large.jpg

suggests that as a 45 year old non-smoker I have a total chance of nearly 4% of dying in the next 10 years so an aditional 2% chance of a moderate head injury (where moderate indicates not requiring ambulance / hospitilisation) in 20 years is something I wouldn't have any issues with (might be useful if my figure wasn't completely made up!).

Inury stats based on on a sample of 1 over the last 10 year period:

- chance of moderate injury requiring visit to to doctor / hospital due to climbing traumatic event = 0%
- chance of moderate injury requiring visit to to doctor / hospital due to climbing chronic problem = 100%
- chance of moderate injury requiring visit to doctor / hospital due to mountain biking traumatic event = 100%
- chance of moderate injury requiring visit to doctor / hospital due to mountain biking chronic problem = 0%

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Its academic, I know, but as a 35 year old would you still make the same call ? or a 25 year old ?

People smoke and drink despite the odds so maybe.

In reply to ericinbristol:
I started wearing a helmet sport climbing after I either experienced or heard of loads of trad accidents where the climber didn't deck out but had his head catapulted into the rock when the rope caught him. I figured the same thing could happen in sport. Then I saw this little horror show http://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/author.html?id=62007. FWIW I find myself climbing a little bolder (as in the bold side of timid) when I wear a helmet which is a bonus.

In reply to ericinbristol:

Belaying in a helmet sounds like a very sensible idea round Bristol. I watched in fascinated horror last October at Cheddar when some goats dislodged a small landslide on the slopes opposite Coronation Street, while the (unhelmeted) climbers below responded to our shouts by running away from the rock, dragging their (unhelmeted) children along with them.

In reply to all:


Some interesting patterns have emerged in this thread. I don’t know how representative the patterns are but my sense is that they are very representative. My original question was why people do or do not wear a helmet when sport climbing (leading or belaying).

The pro-helmet group have been most vocal. The main reason is having witnessed or experienced incidents (specifically falling rocks and inverted falls). Close second is risk of falling rocks or inverted falls. Then there are various other reasons given but not nearly so often (told about incidents; not wearing a helmet is a pointless risk, especially as modern helmets are light and comfortable; with youth groups; possibility of ground fall; multipitch; stepped roofs; losing control of the rope while belaying if hit by rock fall).

The no-helmet group have given a number of reasons. The main one is low risk. The others are: not seen any incidents; uncool to wear one; uncomfortable; won’t protect you from big rocks; can result in risk compensation (feeling safer with a helmet can result in you taking bigger risks in other respects anyway e.g. not belaying to the side in case there is rock fall).

There isn’t a simple pro/no helmet divide. They overlap where people advocate wearing helmets in certain contexts, mainly where risk of rock fall is higher than usual: the sometimes group place less weight on the risk of an inverted fall and see the pleasure of climbing helmetless as worth when they assess there to be a relatively low risk. Personally, that’s where I am, and wear a helmet for sport belaying often and for sport leading rarely. However, if I witnessed or experienced an inverted fall, especially one that resulted in injury or worse, I reckon I would end up in the helmet always group.

In reply to ericinbristol:

"However, if I witnessed or experienced an inverted fall, especially one that resulted in injury or worse, I reckon I would end up in the helmet always group."

A fair point. I imagine if I ended up upside down[1] even indoors it might make me rethink. And being narrowly missed by a football sized rock on a scramble *did* make me rethink about wearing a helmet when scrambling.

But nonetheless I think it should remain individual choice, with the odd exception (e.g. if I'm climbing and I want my belayer to wear one, that's my choice as well as his because it's for my safety as well as his).

[1] Unlikely, unless I get my foot caught in the rope, as I'm proportionally very heavy in the legs. But possible I suppose. And the guy I was climbing with last weekend did invert on an indoor wall after coming off (spinning hold) while trying to clip the second clip, and thus getting a fairly hard catch from me as an alternative to decking...OK because it was indoors and a padded floor, but it made me think a bit...

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

I agree completely.