UKC

Should there be a fixed rope put on the crux of Jack's Rake now?

After the recent rockfall, the bad section is now like a garbage shute. If you slip on the exposed section you are straight off the edge.

Judging by the terrible fatal accidents recently up there (in the wet) I think Jack's Rake is simply not for the inexperienced anymore.

We did it in the dry in April, we had both just climbed MFB, had ropes and gear and both agreed that in the wet we would have roped up on that section. We had passed a small group of people on the way up JR who had turned back on reaching the crux. No surprise considering their age, experience and equipment!

To prevent anymore accidents what do you Guys think?

fixed rope? experienced scramblers/climbers only? via ferrata?

In reply to sjc:

no

but a notice in the car park at the bottom would seem fair enough to me

In reply to JonJavlin:

the title made me think you were trolling, but what you've written suggests you are serious. In fairness, and different from what many will say, it's something sensible to discuss (measures, not necessarily fixed rope). However as above I think all that's needed is maybe a sign in the carpark.

Thing is, yes you can die on it, and potentially due to it's popularity people who are inexperienced might go on it, but it's really not difficult and plenty of first time scramblers would be fine on it. It's just about common sense and being careful. And given that, you could die on much less risky places. You can't protect the world.

In reply to JonJavlin: I would have thought that (like with Lords Rake when that was made unsafe following rockfall) it needs signs at the carpark and at the base of the route (so it is only visable from the very base of the climb).
- Warning that the route is in a dangerous condition following rockfall and that climbers should only attempt it if suitably experienced and equiped.
- Saying that climbers are strongly advised against attempting the route in the wet or following heavy rain.
(no reference to walkers/scrambling, make it look to someone who isn't familiar with the route that it is a proper rock climb.)

In reply to JonJavlin:

I too thought you were trolling but in fairness maybe you haven't seen this? :-

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=507520

In reply to JonJavlin:

Troll or not the Westmorland Gazette website has victims family calling for handrail. Can't post the link as UKC says the it's naughty to post long words!

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

This one: -

http://tinyurl.com/6lu87k2

?

In reply to JonJavlin: anywhere else in the lakes where you can slip and "you are straight off the egde" should get a rope while you are at it.

In reply to JonJavlin:

No.

No fixed rope or V F.

Education would be better. Like the other have suggested, a sign at the bottom and discussion on climbing/walking forums.

In reply to Darren09: but where do you draw the line for what needs a sign

In reply to itsThere:

when 'usual' climbing/walking conditions change, as they apparently have on J R.

If hill walkers want to have a debate about where artificial aids might enhance their enjoyment of the hills, then it's up to them.

Climbers have had a debate and we have graciously allowed ourselves the luxury of bolting up places of our choosing for both sports climbing and dry tooling.

So I say sauce for the goose and gander. Why should we be the sole arbitrators of which desecration of the natural environment is acceptable and which is not?

In reply to JonJavlin:

I'd have to say that a sign would be pretty superfluous on Jack's Rake. It's blindingly obvious from the very start that it is not a path but a scramble. At the risk of opening up a whole separate can of worms, it holds no nasty hidden surprises unlike, say, Broad Stand, which, if approached from above, leads you on and on before dropping the unwary (in some cases quite literally) in the soft and smelly. And, no, I'm not advocating signs on Broad Stand or anywhere else, merely pointing out that JR is not a particularly bad case..

In reply to Jim Lancs:

If you're climbing on mountain crags in the Lakes you are a walker

In reply to Jim Lancs: well said, sir, (doffs cap)

In reply to JonJavlin:

No offence meant to any of the families, but i am going to have a word with our lass and the kids right now and make sure that if i ever die in the mountains that they definately do not call for fixed lines or hand rails to be fitted to the spot where it happened.

If you have ever looked across Stickle tarn to Jack's Rake it looks very menacing so menacing that it took me over 2 years to first do it after tempting myself many times. I have done it lot's of times now and had a mini epic in the wet on it myself, anyway the point is that the view across alone should be the only warning anyone needs, unless your are mentally retarded and do not understand the danger of heights.

No rail, no fixed line, no via ferrata and no warning signs although an upgrade to a grade 2 scramble in the future guide books wouldn't go a miss as the problem with erosion and popularity is only going to get worse.

In reply to JonJavlin: I don't know what the stats are, but I would hazard a guess that over 90% of people going up JR are walkers, not climbers.

Therefore, a notice in the car park, advising them of the dangerous state of the rock, seems like a perfectly sensible course of action.

As for fitting some kind of handrail/via ferrata, I'm not so sure. However, I don't think that experienced climbers should necessarily be the arbiters of this decision.

In reply to Wesley Orvis:
>

Interesting point.. do any climbers/mountaineers leave any advisory comments in wills? 'I want no action taken which changes the sport I love' or some such?

We've had a few deaths in fell running and I'd hate for my family to seek any kind of changes to the sport as I'm huge on personal responsibility. You're responsible for the situations you put yourself in.. even if marshalls/organisers had made mistakes.

I don't have a will and never think about such things until we have a death in fell running and basically the actions or views of the family could really cause a lot of bad press..

In reply to Goucho:

That's the Crib Goch approach.. more to say CG this way Pyg that way.. at the time I think it was contraversial too, but I think its a worth while notice as supposedly people had gone there thinking they were on the pyg...

In reply to JonJavlin: Where's the rockfall? Where's the crux? Where did these people fall from?

In reply to IainRUK: Still didn't stop these people:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-18664011

In reply to Wesley Orvis:

'unless your are mentally retarded and do not understand the danger of heights'

Hmm - I don't agree with fixed ropes etc but that's out of order.

In reply to JonJavlin:

Jakes Rake is a simple plod. Thousands and thousands of people have done it without ever falling off.

There is no 'crux'. I've been up it a few times and did it last year and I'm 62 and so did my 10 year old dog and grand-daughter. Neither are 'climbers', although I appreciate the dog is in a special category given the extra pair of legs. Certainly no reasonably able adult or child should find it remotely difficult. Scary perhaps - but difficult no!.

It's not even a rock climb is it? If it was it would be in one of the climbing guides and with a grade. It isn't listed as a climb. Perhaps it's a new route?

Loose Rock? Most mountains are full of it . It is easily identified. Scree is a good example. You either go around it - or simply go carefully. If anyone needs a full description of what loose rock looks like please write to me encosing a SAE and I'll gladly put together a course on 'Loose Rock - How to be loose rock jock!

As others say, where will it all end? Suitable warnings on every climb warning of the risks, crux's hazards, length of run outs, overhangs, lack of protection and so on?. Perhaps even a recommended list of kit/protection to take with you? Warnings when you enter hill country about the hazards in the hills and mountains. Training courses before you arrive in the Lakes?

If people with only a few years experience or less, of hills are foolhardy enough to climb up something that obviously (to me and thousands of others) doesn't look exactly like a walk along the pier at Blackpool then it's their fault if they find themselves parting company with the rock face. No amount of warnings are going to prevent these mutants from dying.

Thousands and thousands of folk (and animals) have made it up Jake's rake and down again. None of them saw a sign telling them about the hazards. They just looked.

In reply to Dave Perry:

given the context of the current threads on JR, and that it is entirely possible that bereaved relatives may be reading them to try to understand more about the circumstances of their loved ones' deaths, can i respectfully suggest that you edit your post to remove the particularly offensive second last paragraph. if it is too late to do so, it would be possible to ask the moderators to do so,

your point can be made just as effectively without insulting those who have recently lost their lives,

best wishes,

Gregor

In reply to Dave Perry:

Harsh.. we've all been out of our depths at some time.. we call it a 'learning experience' if we get out... anyone adventurous at some points bites off more than they can chew..

In reply to Dave Perry:
'Jakes Rake is a simple plod.' You are wrong. I've been happy soloing Welsh E1s, grit E2s and Alpine PDs/Ds in the past and you are wrong.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward: Has something changed about Welsh e1s, grit e2s etc. that you used to solo, or have you changed?

In reply to JonJavlin:

Fixed ropes etc. only give an illusion of safety which is only going to encourage more people into terrain where they aren't able to cope.

People get out of their depth all the time and at least with Jacks Rake it is obvious from the outset. Then again, even the most competetant can and will have accidents that will prove fatal. Other than to give a fair warning of what to expect, without hyperbole (which will only act as a spur to the mere gung ho, as would artificially increasing its grade to something it isn't), I don't think you should do anything.

In reply to Dave Perry: Looking at your profile, you've not exactly been a hot shot have you! Therefore, it might be an idea to dispense with the elitist and condescending attitude.

In reply to JonJavlin:

I know its sad that someone has lost thier life on this scramble, but at the end of the day that is what it is... a scramble. I don't see why there needs to be a fixed rope in place when education and proper experience would do the same job. I climb and walk a lot and I'd still pack a short rope if I was scrambling with someone inexperienced.

As for fitting a via ferrata, thats riduclus.

In reply to GrahamD:

I went up a path in the appalachians, there was signs all the way saying the route was extremely dangerous.. which I thought was the usual hyperbole... the top was long featureless slabs with iced up cracks.. it was lethal.. I was shitting it friction bridging over iced up cracks.. there should have been signs..

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

You maybe right Rob, but I still don't see it as a reason for 'fixing' Kacks Rake. It's the thin end of a very big wedge. Mountains are dangerous, let them remain obviously so or eventually there will be more accidents of people who just shouldn't be there.
It's like crossing a road, you look both ways because the potential for danger is there, or soloing, you are extrememly careful because it is dangerous, or avoiding the avalanche zones.
DONT GO IF YOU DONT FEEL 100% capable of doing it. A fixed rope is not the answer.

In reply to mlmatt:
Agree. If there are a lot of people getting into trouble because Jack's Rake is more dangerous than they expect, then we should ask how we can change their expectations to fit the reality of it, not vice versa.

Also, although it's hard to step back and take a dispassionate view in the light of the recent sad accidents, I think it's very important to do so before taking any kneejerk action, and ask whether Jack's Rake actually has a significantly higher rate of accidents than any of the other popular easy scrambles in the Lakes, and if so, whether the accidents are down to walkers who've got out of their depth after been misled by guidebooks or confident scramblers (or experienced climbers descending) who understood the risks but missed their footing. It'd be interesting to hear some sort of opinion from Langdale MRT on this...

In reply to Al Evans: Sorry Al, I was responding to the poster who said Jack's Rake is easy and safe - it isn't. That's not an excuse for signage, fixed ropes or anything else - maybe a discreet sign at the bottom of the path up the Ghyll but that is all.

In reply to Sir Chasm: 'or have you changed?' Combination of old age and rclimbing once a month instead of twice a week, I'm afraid.

In reply to JonJavlin:

The whole notion of having to put up signs and, shudder, a handrail is ridiculous. If people aren't able to plan ahead and make sure they are taking the right safety precautions in the mountains, then they shouldn't be there. If they end up as a goretex-clad splat as a result of their idiocy, then so be it.

In reply to TryfAndy: Wasn't the OP asking his question with regards to the recent rockfall and unstable nature of that section of JR now - something a lot of people may be unaware of?

Surely a small sign in the car park etc, advising of the recent rockfall, is hardly playing the Nanny State card is it?

In reply to JonJavlin:

The line of Jack's Rake is clearly visible from Stickle Tarn, it is high and potentially dangerous. Even in poor visibility, when you stand at the bottom you can see that it is steep and requires the use of hands with the potential for a serious fall.

For those people who do not recognise this obvious danger, I don't think a sign will make any difference.

In reply to geordiepie: You could apply the same criteria to the many folks on here who post asking for 'beta' on every inch of a 12 metre extended grit boulder problem

In reply to Goucho:
FWIW I've not seen any actual mention of rockfall outside of the original post in this thread. Are we sure it's not someone getting it confused with Lord's Rake?

In general, a sign in the car park seems reasonable, though - the same way that there's a sign at the bottom of the Ben reminding people that it gets cold on top sometimes. It comes under the heading of "taking reasonable steps to educate people so they can make an informed decision" rather than "sanitizing the mountain environment so people don't have to make an informed decision".

In reply to Goucho:


Where is the rockfall?

In reply to Steve John B: I personally don't know I was just commenting on the information supplied by the OP.

In reply to JonJavlin:
Broad Stand, Sharp Edge and now Jacks Rake, I tend to spot these threads because I am most active in the Lakes but do they have these same endless debates about tricky spots in Scotland and Wales and fitting bolts and cables and god knows what else, maybe Crib Goch or the Anogeach (maybe better examples) or is it just a Lakes thing.

In reply to Goucho:

That takes away part of the adventure of being in the mountains though. Do we then need a team of 'route monitors' to advise of these things on every possible scramble and then stick signs up for it?

In reply to TryfAndy: Hardly an unprecedented move is it. I thought warnings about Lords Rake were around.

I can't see how a sign at a car park is that much against the spirit of adventure...

You've taken a minor comment and taken it to its most extreme limit..

In reply to sjc: The descent on Idwal slabs gets similar...

The lakes is most popular. More tourists strolling up. Some minor info on tourist info boards at car parks may help, but then again it could just be advertising a challenge...

In reply to IainRUK:

Yes, it would have to be carefully worded so as to minimise the appeal to the macho but still convey some useful information (if there has been any rockfall of any significance, for instance)

In reply to GrahamD: I recall pretty obvious signs at the foot of the 'tourist' route up Ben Lomond advising about appropriate clothing, kit and food. Judging by what we saw up on the hill many folks chose to cheerfully ignore them. There were all the usual types in sandals, shorts and no rucksacks clutching a bottle of water and not much else and this was with an obvious storm approaching. You can lead a horse etc.

In reply to Goucho:
I never said or implied I was a hot shot - nor was I implying you have to be one to go up Jake's Rake. In fact the opposite!!!!!!.

I simply don't see why we should have warning signs on simple routes up mountains and hills simply in the vain hope than it'll save a few. In my experience those that would benefit most from being told to leave alone are those least likely to be willing or able to read the sign in the first place.

Everyone I know complains about the 'Elf & Safety" culture in this country. Surely we don't want to add to it too?

In reply to Goucho:

I personally don't know either, but given that no-one else has mentioned it (including the Langdale MRT spokesman) and the OP has buggered off I think it's a red herring.

In reply to Steve John B:

Yes, a clear troll. And sadly it has allowed some nasty bits of work the platform to air their unpleasant views. I guess we should be grateful that they seem to be very much the exception but it is still disappointing to find.

Cheers
Gregor

Ramblin dave asked what Langdale MRT thought - this is from the Westmoreland Gazette:
'Leader of Langdale and Ambleside Mountain Rescue Team, Nick Owen, said the proximity of the two accidents was ‘pure coincidence’ and no signs were needed.'

The Gazette also says that the husband of the lady who died had researched the walk, but 'was not aware of the sudden scramble along the route'.

The Gazette are currently carrying a poll on their home page (http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/) 'Should danger warning signs be placed at the bottom of challenging Lake District paths?'

In reply to JonJavlin: Pretty pointless putting up a fixed rope as those who disagree would quickly remove it.NIMBY.LIKE A notice in the valley might help but people will be human and have to be responsible for their actions.The Europeans have a completely different attitude to fixed gear which most Brits are happy to pull on when out there.

In reply to JonJavlin:

As there hasn't been a rockfall I am deffo calling troll.

It's exactly the same as it's always been. The iffy bit is where you come out of one trough, and step into another via a narrow eroded bit of gully. The step on is a bit exposed and airy but it's always been pretty much the same.

In reply to Nigel Coe:

That link seems to have been removed?

In reply to Trangia:

Delete the last couple of characters from the URL and it should work ok.

In reply to Karl Lunt:

I don't think a sign should really try to tell people what to do - its a red rag to a bull for some people. All it should do is notify if there has been any change to the route (rock fall etc)

In reply to redsulike:

According to mountain rescue, they fell from two different places.