UKC

So your in the supermarket, and there are 2 identical bottles of Milk, the same in every respect, except one is at the current price, lets say 50p and one is 60p because the farmer gets a better price, which would you go for. I`d go for the 50p one.
sjc

In reply to sjc:

bit random......but the cheapest one!

In reply to sjc: If I knew that the farmer was getting a fair price, then I'd buy the 60p bottle.
It's come to something when we need fair-trade principles for our own farmers!

In reply to sjc:
Cheapest. In today's economic climes, I think most people would

In reply to goose299: agreed!!!

In reply to goose299: ..most Lidl/Aldi shoppers...maybe

In reply to sjc: An echo for 'if I knew the climbers got a fairer price' I'd buy the more expensive, the same as paying a bit more for higher welfare meat, for more local produce etc.

In reply to sjc:

If it was guaranteed that the farmer got the extra money then the 60p pint. Milk is too cheap...I reckon it's being kept artificially low by supermarkets as a loss leader.

In reply to sjc: i buy jersey gold top relatively frequently (once a fortnight), plus have milk delivered from the dairy. So I can categorically state i'm doing my bit for the industry.

bring back more milk deliveries then you'll be paying direct (i.e cutting out the margin from tesco etc) and milk farmer is likely to be getting a fair price!

In reply to sjc:

surely pretty much the same as "do you pay extra for fairtrade products?" but to do with more local producers.

so yes, I do buy fairtrade and also try to buy locally sourced products etc, and if I had the option between your hypothetical two products I'd go for the 60p one.

In reply to gingerdave13:

So as the farmer has cut out the middle man is he giving you a better price, they don`t seem to at Farmers markets, just trouser the lot.

In reply to sjc: 60p.

In reply to puppythedog:

What climbers?

I already pay more for organic milk not because it nessessarily does anything to improve the taste of it but just because I know the animals have had a better standard of farming.

In reply to sjc: I buy the 2 litre milk bottles, sees me through a week. Costs a quid. I'd happily pay two. I've milked a cow, believe me, it's a good deal!

But I'd always rather buy better quality for slightly more.

In reply to fijibaby:

Not all "fairtrade" is good. In theory it sounds good because farmers get a minimum acceptabel standard of living but it many ways it hurts growth of the trade. In the coffee industry where fair trade operates the farmer gets a set amount regardless of the quality of their product. This is demoralising for farmers who work hard to farm a high quality product, and low quality farmers get paid the same for doing sometimes a fraction of the work.

There are other methods of ethical and fair trading that is not the TM "fairtrade".

Cup of Excellence is a premium fair trading incentive in the coffee world which basically involves farmers taking their produce to a body of coffee experts to grade and mark the produce. Each lot of coffee is then auctioned off to the highest bidder which results in the farmer getting a profit which is satisfyingly proportional to the effort their farm has put into it and can be several times and sometimes more what they would get given a "charity" from "fairtrade". The farmer is rewarded for their work and it encourages competition and standards improving in other farms in that area.

The result to consumer is that the coffee is priced as a premium product. I normally pay about 6 quid (sometimes up to 9) for a 250g bag of coffee beans compared to the peanuts charged for low quality fairtrade beans in supermarkets. Most people just aren't going to pay for that though so premium coffee is a niche market.

In reply to sjc:

My household gets through 2.5 pints of full fat milk a day and i would happily pay extra so that traditional dairy farms don't dissapear from the UK.

In reply to sjc:

And what point are you trying to make? Perhaps a different question might be: What would you choose?

British milk at 60p
International milk blend at 50p

In reply to sjc:

I would buy the milk from my local farmer, rather than the supermarket, which is what I do, but I appear to be in a minority these days.

In reply to EeeByGum:


Good point. It is ridiculous that a country which is more than capable of being self-sufficient in milk production should import milk.

In reply to sjc:
we get a pint a day via milkman delivery (@ 62p/pint) and another 3-4 pints of the organic stuff from the supermarket (no idea how much it costs . I'm happy to pay a bit more and know the welfare of the animals (and the farmer) are higher on the agenda.

In reply to EeeByGum:

No that would not be a better question at all, as it does not answer what I am asking, is the British consumer prepared to pay more purely so the Farmer can have more.

In reply to sjc: erm.. yes because tescos and the like have artificially lowered the price they buy at. Ergo, the price at farmers markets and from the producer is actually the 'real' price that they need to produce the stuff!

In reply to sjc: If it stopped British dairy farmers getting stuffed by supermarkets then I would. Sadly I am not that naive...

In reply to sjc: I would buy the more epxensive milk.

I would NOT do this to support the farmer.

I would do it to support that particular way of farming, with smaller dairy herds.

This has many benefits which include smaller farms..... which in turn means less liklihood of spread of disease and more importantly...

Land is partioned up to smaller packets with hedgerows which encourage wildlife and make our countryside more interesting.


You are not paying 10p more for the milk.

You are paying 10p more to avoid huge industrial farms and the effect that would ultimately have on your surroundings.

In reply to doz generale:

blimey how big is your family?

ok so i probably do 1.25 myself a day, but i'm probably in the minority of peeps who have a pint to drink a day.

I buy organic. I pay £3 for 2 x 2L of Yeo Valley or Rachel's.

1. They haven't reduced the rates they pay the organic co-ops
2. The animals have the highest standard of welfare
3. The farming is more environmentally friendly
4. There is less risk of exposure to any potential health scares if there are mistakes in the drugs routinely used in other farming methods.
5. The milk is good quality

I think 3 quid for all the milk two of us need for a week is fair. I don't use a milkman. As much as I'd like to, we can't get organic milk from ours on arbitrary days and he doesn't come early enough to put the milk in the fridge before we leave for work (on the rare hot days!). Also it's the milk from milkmen that is really crippling the dairy farmers. The non-supermarket suppliers are getting less money because their customers (milkmen and independent stores) are under pressure to compete with the direct purchase for supermarkets.

Supermarkets also use things like Milk etc as loss leaders so that it drives customers in to buy other things.

In reply to gingerdave13:

I have at least 2L of Whole Milk a day myself. Sometimes 3L.

In reply to sjc: One of the few instances where it's better to buy from Tesco than the coop, as the coop (through middlemen) pay a lower rate to the farmer

In reply to toad:

Not really. It's Tesco's and the other supermarkets' own brand milk that is putting pressure on other distributors to cut the price paid to the farmers.

If you care about the price paid you need to buy from a brand that pays a fair price. It doesn't matter what you pay for it, it might be sold for little margin or not.

In reply to Milesy:

There is an argument that loss leaders are anti competitive because the small guy can't necessarily afford it. An answer may be to ban them.

Another might be to allow the smaller guy to form cartels to redress the balance.

Neil

In reply to gingerdave13:

I'm the guy in the supermarket buying the big 6 pint bottles! My 2 year old twins have a half pint bottle each in the morning and in the evening (they used to have a lunch time one too!) so that's 2 pints a day. The other half pint is me and the wife. Our milk consumption will go up once our 5 month old makes the switch from boob to cow. It will go up to 4 pints a day! I would still pay extra to preserve traditional dairy farming.

In reply to Milesy:

3 litres!! That's 2000 calories just in milk!

In reply to toad:

Yes, I'm not a fan of Tesco but I have to agree. As I understand it, Tesco are paying farmers a fair price, unlike a few other major supermarkets which are not:

"SHOPPERS should boycott supermarkets which do not pay farmers fair prices for milk, MPs were told yesterday. Consumers should snub a trio of chains which keep prices low, Liberal Democrat MP Roger Williams said.

He told the Commons: Consumers can reward retailers who are doing the right thing: Sainsburys, Tesco, Waitrose and Marks and Spencer have a price formula based on cost, and I commend them for that. Consumers should show their appreciation by voting with their feet and purses, and punish Co-op, Asda and Morrisons which do not have a similar scheme."

Northern Echo, 19.7.12

Is it perhaps a case that many (most?) consumers are totally divorced from rural food production, have little or no understanding of the complexities of the production process, have little or no empathy with farmers and tend to buy purely on cost rather than origin? Or is this too simplistic?

Dave

In reply to sjc:

I get our milk delivered straight to the doorstep by the local farm; they also have a milk round. The bottles are recycled, well re-filled and no middlemen.

Support your local milk man as well as the farmers?

In reply to sjc:


Yes, but you are assuming that the British public don't give a damn as to whether it is a British farmer that is being paid more or a foreign farmer which would very much be the case in your question since I guess the foreign farmers costs are lower. I think it would be fair to say that most people would gladly pay a small premium for a British product.

Obviously, if you have two identical products at different prices, the consumer is going to pick the cheapest so your original question is rather meaningless.

In reply to sjc:

I buy fairtrade/organic/local as much as possible, so yeah, I'd pay the extra. Just seems like we're cutting our own throats if we don't. If UK farmers go bust we'll end up paying a *lot* more for imported goods, not to mention the overall effect on the country.

In reply to Jimbo C:


Not sure about that one. I would not be at all suprised if the milk we buy (as milk) is a minority of milk used by the country.

Don't forget all the cheese, yoghurt, chocolate and other food producers who get through tonnes of the stuff.

In reply to EeeByGum:

It makes sense to preserve british farming as the foriegn counrties will not allways be able to sell cheap milk, rising standards of living, exchange rate fluctuation etc. We could end up with milk being more expensive from overseas and no UK dairy farming left.

I think it's as much that most consumers are so desensitised, by being told day in day out by various parties with conflicting agendas what products are good or bad for a variety of different reasons (cost, health, ethical) and that it takes so much research to really understand it all well enough to make all those judgements. This thread has a good example -

generally Co-op = good
for milk = Co-op = bad, but top evil-dog Tesco good.

but then would you nip to Co-op for some food then across town to the Tesco for other food all the time? What about when you throw in the others, plus various local sources? It gets very complicated. And most people just don't know or care enough to do that, they've got enough stress in life.

(I generally try to buy ethically and also eat healthily, however I realised a long time ago you have to find the balance that's right for you. A lot of people just give up and ignore the messages and do what's easier as it seems an insurmountable problem).

In reply to MG: i don't believe this 400kcal+ per pint crap.. i reckon it's liquid so it barely counts

In reply to Milesy:

Gosh - my dad had a heart attack after a number of years of that sort of consumption. You wanna watch out!

In reply to EeeByGum:

Evidence is flimsy at best. I have a healthy high fat (natural) diet and have no problems with cholesterol, heart, blood pressure, diabetes or anything else. I am very fit and healthy. The population has been brained washed into low fat diets (which are incidently usually high in sugar and carbs). That is another argument for another time though.

In reply to EeeByGum:
>

In your opinion, but it is the question I was looking to raise a question about. Now then, if you want to bugger off and ask your question on a different thread I am sure UKC`s bandwidth can stand it.

In reply to sjc:
My best friends father owns a dairy farm and a waste recycling plant, I support the dairy farmer! Milk isn't that expensive, I do buy filtered stuff coz it lasts longer and tastes a bit nicer, but it's more of an oh get some milk, rather than, right if I buy 50p one I save 10p to waste on other crap instead! If you bought 2 of your 50p a week for a year, you save £10.40 a year, which over the whole country is a lot of money. Which supermarkets are trying to take from the farmers by buying milk off them at less than overall production cost.
Long run? Bye bye British farmers who can't afford to produce milk because they can't afford to feed the cows. We rely on import milk, which inevitably will bring a disease across at one point and all Brits (except out rich conservatives) perish, leaving the rich to fend for themselves! Soon comes cannibalism, Germans decide to nuke uk, Germany wins ww2 after all!


Of course I went OTT! I felt like it!
It's a bit of a laugh!

(apart from the undercutting of cost price milk and the poor starving baby cows!)

In reply to sjc:

id pay more for milk but not for cheese or cream

In reply to toad: and the co-op is the dearest place ever...

In reply to LaylayPants:

Going on from there, the knock on effect fewer dairy herds>>>loss of pastureland>>>hedgerows being ripped out for arable crops>>>a drop in flies and insects leading to downturn in available food sources for birds and other wildlife and so it goes on...

In reply to doz generale:

Indeed.

In reply to Philip:

You've bought the advertising haven't you. Organic dairy farming is no better for the environment than conventional. In fact, you could argue worse in some respects. Every three years the fields need ploughing and sowing with a high yield grass mix to get the nitrogen in to the soil. Conventional farmers cheat, admittedly with oil-intensive inorganic fertilisers. The net effect is the same though. No wildflowers in the sward so no benefit to the environment (except slightly lower carbon emissions).

In reply to sjc:

I'd pay more. The milk I buy is generally cheaper than regular fresh milk regardless - I prefer UHT milk. I wouldn't be bothered if it went up in price.

In reply to brokenbanjo: Where on earth did you get that from?

In reply to brokenbanjo: Just to qualify my last comment:
Organic standards are pretty strict and strongly discourage ploughing of pasture.
Nitrogen is usually introduced using legumes to fix the nitrogen. A decent mix of species in the sward ensures that the soil is not exhausted. Organic pasture have some of the most species rich mixes in the UK.
Lord knows where you've got your info from.
Have a look at the Soil Association for more (admittedly biased) info.

In reply to SFM:


In that case they could

a) pay the farmer more, and

b) not put the price up to the consumer...

In reply to sjc:

if it has a nice logo on the bottle so everyone can see my ethical views and be impressed then its got to worth the extra 10p

In reply to sjc: Its a bit ironic that this topic is in 'the pub' forum. 60p for a pint of milk or lets say £2 for a pint of something that is loosely called beer, hmm ?

In reply to gingerdave13:

Tescos are one of the supermarkets that have agreed to improve their farmgate prices for farmers.

Surprisingly, the Co-op is one that has refused. The shop in my village is a co-op and they really do pillage - Waitrose in Otley is cheaper!.

Anyhow, i use a good old fashioned milkman - though he is crap - not had a bill for 5 months!

In reply to John Rushby:

* qualification - Tescos - in terms of milk

In reply to sjc:

So no one uses a milk man then? You can even order online these days at no extra cost. I'm sure it's not just mine which allows this, and a note in a milk bottle still works.