In reply to csw:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
>
> A couple of things. I'm assuming that by "aiding" you mean climbing with tools and I'd dispute that,
I don' think he was calling winter climbing aided, he was just comparing levels of impact to the rock as similair.
>
> "Trashing them with metal as was done in the peg era". Your language is highly emotive. Understandable, since you obviously have strong feelings on the subject, but seriously - quarry routes in Lancashire are full of peg scars, from the days when aiding them was the only way people thought they could be climbed, given the standards and gear available at that time. Are you saying that torquing an axe into a crack is going to do the same kind of damage that hammering a peg backwards and forwards to loosen it does? I've never seen such damage, but then compared to many people on here, I'm quite inexperienced.
I think it does do quite a lot over time, mabe more than aid even. One ascent might not do too much, just as one aid ascent woudl not but repeated again and again the scarring really builds. Whether this matters or not is quite different.
> I'm not trying to start a fight here, I'm open to reasonable argument. Give me a good reason to stay away from ES, that allows me to do e.g. Tower Ridge or Centurion and I'll do it, but it's not apparent so far.
I think he would be suggesting that maybe we should leave routes like Centurion alone too. I may be with him on that, though I'm still making up my mind. I climbed it a couple of years ago and there was a fair amount of marking and some obviously hammered gear in the main pitch.