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Anyone know if the Walker Spur is given a different grade to ED1 in winter?
I imagaine it's a totally different proposition, does it get a damiliano grade or an higher ED grade?
I imagaine it's a totally different proposition, does it get a damiliano grade or an higher ED grade?
In reply to Jon Bracey:
Sure... but to get a rough feel for what it's like in the sub optimal conditions of winter, I've heard ED3 is a fairly decent approx.
Sure... but to get a rough feel for what it's like in the sub optimal conditions of winter, I've heard ED3 is a fairly decent approx.
Post edited at 15:58
In reply to smithaldo:
It's just had an ascent from Tom Livingstone and Pete Graham so maybe one of them will be along to tell us how hard it was!
> Anyone know if the Walker Spur is given a different grade to ED1 in winter?
It's just had an ascent from Tom Livingstone and Pete Graham so maybe one of them will be along to tell us how hard it was!
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In reply to Robert Durran: That was why I asked.
Their photos certainly show a very different type of proposition to a summer ED1.
Their photos certainly show a very different type of proposition to a summer ED1.
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
Winter ascents have never, and will never get a different grade in the Alps. End of story!
Winter ascents have never, and will never get a different grade in the Alps. End of story!
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In reply to smithaldo:
As per what Jon B said, there isn't a different grade for winter - which is a bit odd when you think about it?
However, when we did it in winter in the late 80's, it was definitely harder than summer, and probably ED2 ish.
It did feel very different (as you'd expect) and it was also seriously fecking cold at night, so take an extra jumper.
> Anyone know if the Walker Spur is given a different grade to ED1 in winter?
> I imagaine it's a totally different proposition, does it get a damiliano grade or an higher ED grade?
As per what Jon B said, there isn't a different grade for winter - which is a bit odd when you think about it?
However, when we did it in winter in the late 80's, it was definitely harder than summer, and probably ED2 ish.
It did feel very different (as you'd expect) and it was also seriously fecking cold at night, so take an extra jumper.
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In reply to Jon Bracey:
Blimey Jon, don't get mardy.
Surely when you look at the pics on petes Facebook page you can't argue it isn't a s£&@ tonne more difficult in winter?
Is that not one of the reasons the damilano system came into
Place?
Blimey Jon, don't get mardy.
Surely when you look at the pics on petes Facebook page you can't argue it isn't a s£&@ tonne more difficult in winter?
Is that not one of the reasons the damilano system came into
Place?
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In reply to smithaldo:
Winter ascents are often much tougher, and thats why they are called 'winter ascents'.
Traditional alpine grades are very rough and ready, not giving you much detail of the hardest technical pitches, hence the additional info of rock grades and what you refer to as the Damilano system.
Winter ascents are often much tougher, and thats why they are called 'winter ascents'.
Traditional alpine grades are very rough and ready, not giving you much detail of the hardest technical pitches, hence the additional info of rock grades and what you refer to as the Damilano system.
In reply to smithaldo:
Route get's V 6a in the Batoux book. Although I noticed the RF topo was IV 6a+. M6 in winter maybe? Colton-Macintyre gets VI so Walker Spur must be at least this in winter. VI M6 is my guess from my armchair.
Route get's V 6a in the Batoux book. Although I noticed the RF topo was IV 6a+. M6 in winter maybe? Colton-Macintyre gets VI so Walker Spur must be at least this in winter. VI M6 is my guess from my armchair.
In reply to smithaldo:
The grade is the grade Difficulty can vary week to week When we did it early summer 1977 we were the only people on the mountain and wore crampons for most of it We also had to tunnel a large cornice on the summit I wouldn't want to claim a different grade however
The grade is the grade Difficulty can vary week to week When we did it early summer 1977 we were the only people on the mountain and wore crampons for most of it We also had to tunnel a large cornice on the summit I wouldn't want to claim a different grade however
In reply to smithaldo:
Stevie Haston talks about soloing the Walker in this:
http://enormocast.com/episode-75-stevie-haston-rad-reputation/
Personally, I think it's one of the Enormo's best interviews, well worth listening to. Anyway, he describes the Walker in winter as M6 or "5.10 with bits of ice on it".
Stevie Haston talks about soloing the Walker in this:
http://enormocast.com/episode-75-stevie-haston-rad-reputation/
Personally, I think it's one of the Enormo's best interviews, well worth listening to. Anyway, he describes the Walker in winter as M6 or "5.10 with bits of ice on it".
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In reply to Mr. Lee:
I climbed it in winter conditions, but outside the true dates. I used crampons for all but a few pitches and either dry tooled or used fingerless gloves. My fingers went numb very quickly. On th steep pitches they were dry, otherwise it was up to Scottish V or possibly new world Vi.
James
I climbed it in winter conditions, but outside the true dates. I used crampons for all but a few pitches and either dry tooled or used fingerless gloves. My fingers went numb very quickly. On th steep pitches they were dry, otherwise it was up to Scottish V or possibly new world Vi.
James
In reply to Jon Bracey:
With respect Jon. Telling the OP the line is much tougher in winter isn't exactly overly insightful. There's no harm in giving an estimate at relative difficulty.
You said it yourself... alpine grades are extremely rough and ready. The OP isn't asking for it to be included in a guidebook. He's just asking approximately how difficult the Walker in decent winter condition is relative to other graded routes in the Alps.
As I say, ED3 has been thrown around. Obviously this will vary day to day. It's a rough and ready approx. I have never had a problem with people doing this. I didn't expect anyone else to either!
> Winter ascents have never, and will never get a different grade in the Alps. End of story!
> Winter ascents are often much tougher, and thats why they are called 'winter ascents'.
> Traditional alpine grades are very rough and ready, not giving you much detail of the hardest technical pitches
With respect Jon. Telling the OP the line is much tougher in winter isn't exactly overly insightful. There's no harm in giving an estimate at relative difficulty.
You said it yourself... alpine grades are extremely rough and ready. The OP isn't asking for it to be included in a guidebook. He's just asking approximately how difficult the Walker in decent winter condition is relative to other graded routes in the Alps.
As I say, ED3 has been thrown around. Obviously this will vary day to day. It's a rough and ready approx. I have never had a problem with people doing this. I didn't expect anyone else to either!
Post edited at 09:47
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In reply to Goucho:
Sounds like you've had more than your fair share of adventures Goucho! Who did you do the Walker with? Bet it was a real mission. Just getting down the South Side in winter would be tough enough!
Be great to have a chat to you about it, as I think Natalie is going to post some pics from Tom L and Pete G's recent ascent, maybe we could compare and contrast?
Jack
Sounds like you've had more than your fair share of adventures Goucho! Who did you do the Walker with? Bet it was a real mission. Just getting down the South Side in winter would be tough enough!
Be great to have a chat to you about it, as I think Natalie is going to post some pics from Tom L and Pete G's recent ascent, maybe we could compare and contrast?
Jack
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In reply to Jon Bracey:
Maybe true, but not very helpful for many routes. imagine if we adopted that system in Scotland: Winter Needle E1, Point 5 VS............not very informative about what sort of difficulty to expect.
> Winter ascents have never, and will never get a different grade in the Alps. End of story!
Maybe true, but not very helpful for many routes. imagine if we adopted that system in Scotland: Winter Needle E1, Point 5 VS............not very informative about what sort of difficulty to expect.
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In reply to smithaldo:
I've nothing to add except to say I am loving a thread where someone called A Longleat Boulderer is lecturing Jon Bracey on how to grade winter alpine routes. It's inspired me to send an email to Stephen Hawkins about space and stars and shit, I think he may be missing a few things.
I've nothing to add except to say I am loving a thread where someone called A Longleat Boulderer is lecturing Jon Bracey on how to grade winter alpine routes. It's inspired me to send an email to Stephen Hawkins about space and stars and shit, I think he may be missing a few things.
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In reply to Tyler:
That's just it. I'm not disagreeing on how to grade, but saying there can be use in asking an approx difficulty in different conditions.
Let me use an analogy that perhaps you'll appreciate if my username matters. If someone managed to climb The Ace at Stanage on an average UK summer overcast warm day and said that they felt it like 8B+ when the temps are 17 degrees... is that information worthless when someone asks 'what grade is The Ace in summer'?
My point is, The Ace isn't 8B+, it's 8A. The Walker Spur isn't ED3 it's ED1. People tend to talk of ED2 and ED3 when they come down off the Walker in winter. And there's value in that.
Jon essentially said: The Ace is 8A and that's that. I agree with him. But this doesn't mean it can't feel harder out of condition. Of course this fact won't be written in a guidebook and should never be- it's blatantly obvious. But attributing a grade depending on conditions can be useful to would be ascentionists nevertheless.
Either way, as you say. I'm a million miles behind Jon when it comes to alpinism. But does that mean I can't disagree?
That's just it. I'm not disagreeing on how to grade, but saying there can be use in asking an approx difficulty in different conditions.
Let me use an analogy that perhaps you'll appreciate if my username matters. If someone managed to climb The Ace at Stanage on an average UK summer overcast warm day and said that they felt it like 8B+ when the temps are 17 degrees... is that information worthless when someone asks 'what grade is The Ace in summer'?
My point is, The Ace isn't 8B+, it's 8A. The Walker Spur isn't ED3 it's ED1. People tend to talk of ED2 and ED3 when they come down off the Walker in winter. And there's value in that.
Jon essentially said: The Ace is 8A and that's that. I agree with him. But this doesn't mean it can't feel harder out of condition. Of course this fact won't be written in a guidebook and should never be- it's blatantly obvious. But attributing a grade depending on conditions can be useful to would be ascentionists nevertheless.
Either way, as you say. I'm a million miles behind Jon when it comes to alpinism. But does that mean I can't disagree?
Post edited at 11:26
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In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
As much as I love the analogy, The Ace is F8B
The Ace (f8B)
As much as I love the analogy, The Ace is F8B
The Ace (f8B)
Post edited at 11:26
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In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
So I can claim to have climbed ED6 having made winter ascents of ED3's...?
Sorry, but you have lost me
So I can claim to have climbed ED6 having made winter ascents of ED3's...?
Sorry, but you have lost me
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In reply to Jon Bracey:
Well, surely not. In much the same way I couldn't claim 8B+ for a summer ascent of the Joker.
Let me put it this way: if I knew you'd climbed a certain ED3 in winter and I was planning on having a go myself so asked you 'Jon, that ED3 you did last winter, beyond length of day and weather was it much harder than summer?', would it be so wrong for you to say it felt like other ED4s you'd climbed in condition. I personally think not.
Do you really think there's no value in this if someone specifically asks?
Well, surely not. In much the same way I couldn't claim 8B+ for a summer ascent of the Joker.
Let me put it this way: if I knew you'd climbed a certain ED3 in winter and I was planning on having a go myself so asked you 'Jon, that ED3 you did last winter, beyond length of day and weather was it much harder than summer?', would it be so wrong for you to say it felt like other ED4s you'd climbed in condition. I personally think not.
Do you really think there's no value in this if someone specifically asks?
Post edited at 11:44
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In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
I think anyone attempting The Waller Spur in wimter ( or even The Joker in summer) knows the score. Trying to hone down grades changes for typical more difficult conditions variations seems fraught with potential error and confusion.
I think anyone attempting The Waller Spur in wimter ( or even The Joker in summer) knows the score. Trying to hone down grades changes for typical more difficult conditions variations seems fraught with potential error and confusion.
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In reply to Jon Bracey:
No, and nor can I claim to have climbed an HVS because I did savage Slit in the rain, but I could say it felt as hard as other HVS's I've done. I really don't see what the issue is.
Of course, if I did Savage Slit in winter it would feel nothing like V Diff, which is why in Scotland we have a different grading system for winter ascents. If there is no equivalent for system for alpine winter applicable to routes for which the climbing has a completely different character in winter*, then maybe that is a deficiency of the grading system.
*I don't know whether the Walker would be in this category.
PS The photos of Tom and Pete's ascent look really, really nails!
> So I can claim to have climbed ED6 having made winter ascents of ED3's...?
No, and nor can I claim to have climbed an HVS because I did savage Slit in the rain, but I could say it felt as hard as other HVS's I've done. I really don't see what the issue is.
Of course, if I did Savage Slit in winter it would feel nothing like V Diff, which is why in Scotland we have a different grading system for winter ascents. If there is no equivalent for system for alpine winter applicable to routes for which the climbing has a completely different character in winter*, then maybe that is a deficiency of the grading system.
*I don't know whether the Walker would be in this category.
PS The photos of Tom and Pete's ascent look really, really nails!
Post edited at 12:40
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In reply to Jon Bracey:
Isn't the point of climbing the Walker Spur to climb the Walker Spur – and not to be able 'to claim to have climbed an ED3 [or whatever]'? Once again we see a strange emphasis on and obsession with grades. I suppose it's only to be expected in a world that's much more concerned with numbers and quantities rather than experiences and qualities.
Isn't the point of climbing the Walker Spur to climb the Walker Spur – and not to be able 'to claim to have climbed an ED3 [or whatever]'? Once again we see a strange emphasis on and obsession with grades. I suppose it's only to be expected in a world that's much more concerned with numbers and quantities rather than experiences and qualities.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
What are you dithering on about Gordon? The discussion about grades is to get a feel for how hard it is to climb the Walker Spur in winter, nothing more.
No-ones saying, "What grade can they claim for a winter ascent of the Walker Spur", they're saying, "Wow, the Walker Spur in winter, I have no idea how hard that is. I wonder what grade it would be?".
Slightly different, but feel free to bang on about the good old days if you want.
What are you dithering on about Gordon? The discussion about grades is to get a feel for how hard it is to climb the Walker Spur in winter, nothing more.
No-ones saying, "What grade can they claim for a winter ascent of the Walker Spur", they're saying, "Wow, the Walker Spur in winter, I have no idea how hard that is. I wonder what grade it would be?".
Slightly different, but feel free to bang on about the good old days if you want.
Post edited at 12:59
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In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
I think comparing the grading discrepancies in alpine routes to a boulder problem is part of the problem. There is so much more variability in alpine routes in general that anything other than a general guide is meaningless. Would saying that it is probably between TD and ED8 be particularly helpful? Alpine climbing is (in my experience) one of the few remaining vestiges of climbing for the sake of the adventure, where one can do routes because they look great or the climbing is good without even knowing what grade that piece of mountain has been arbitrary assigned for a particular set of conditions.
I know the grade given to the last boulder problem I climbed, but I've no idea what the grade of the last alpine route I climbed was. The romantic part of me would quite like to keep that.
I think comparing the grading discrepancies in alpine routes to a boulder problem is part of the problem. There is so much more variability in alpine routes in general that anything other than a general guide is meaningless. Would saying that it is probably between TD and ED8 be particularly helpful? Alpine climbing is (in my experience) one of the few remaining vestiges of climbing for the sake of the adventure, where one can do routes because they look great or the climbing is good without even knowing what grade that piece of mountain has been arbitrary assigned for a particular set of conditions.
I know the grade given to the last boulder problem I climbed, but I've no idea what the grade of the last alpine route I climbed was. The romantic part of me would quite like to keep that.
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In reply to galpinos:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I read his point as ... 'grades are a tool not the be all and end all'. Which builds on what I'm trying to say... that they have a use in describing how hard things are. It's not about 'claiming' a grade, it's not about ego, it's about knowing how hard something is likely to be before setting off.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I read his point as ... 'grades are a tool not the be all and end all'. Which builds on what I'm trying to say... that they have a use in describing how hard things are. It's not about 'claiming' a grade, it's not about ego, it's about knowing how hard something is likely to be before setting off.
In reply to Aly:
Absolutely Aly. It wasn't meant to be a comparison. Sorry if I didn't make it clear but it was meant as an analogy (I chose bouldering because a previous poster commented on my user name and alpine climbing!). I hoped the analogy would get my point across without the clutter than seemed to confuse.
Absolutely not. But if you did a TD one day, and then you got back to the valley and I was planning it for tomorrow and asked you how it was... and you said it felt as hard as something ED2 you'd climbed back in summer because of ... let's say iced up cracks... is that not useful info?
My argument is that it is.
> I think comparing the grading discrepancies in alpine routes to a boulder problem is part of the problem.
Absolutely Aly. It wasn't meant to be a comparison. Sorry if I didn't make it clear but it was meant as an analogy (I chose bouldering because a previous poster commented on my user name and alpine climbing!). I hoped the analogy would get my point across without the clutter than seemed to confuse.
> There is so much more variability in alpine routes in general that anything other than a general guide is meaningless. Would saying that it is probably between TD and ED8 be particularly helpful?
Absolutely not. But if you did a TD one day, and then you got back to the valley and I was planning it for tomorrow and asked you how it was... and you said it felt as hard as something ED2 you'd climbed back in summer because of ... let's say iced up cracks... is that not useful info?
My argument is that it is.
Post edited at 13:03
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In reply to Robert Durran:
It's only one of many though, isn't it? Any system that grades something like Papillion Ridge harder than Broulliard ridge isn't really giving the whole picture. Likewise, even if someone were to say Walker Spur in winter is ED3 that still doesn't mean much, what does that mean the same as Elixir d'Astroth? Not sure of grades I've used in my examples but you get the idea.
> If there is no equivalent for system for alpine winter applicable to routes for which the climbing has a completely different character in winter*, then maybe that is a deficiency of the grading system.
It's only one of many though, isn't it? Any system that grades something like Papillion Ridge harder than Broulliard ridge isn't really giving the whole picture. Likewise, even if someone were to say Walker Spur in winter is ED3 that still doesn't mean much, what does that mean the same as Elixir d'Astroth? Not sure of grades I've used in my examples but you get the idea.
Post edited at 13:24
In reply to Tyler:
And this is a short coming of that particular system. It means precisely as much as saying the Walker Spur is graded ED1.
Imagine for a minute that the climate of that mountain was different. Imagine for example the Walker was very cold and in what we consider today as typical winter condition through the summer and much much worse in winter... if in August 1938 Cassin et al made the first ascent (again, in conditions that we currently experience in a 'typical' winter) and graded it ED3 (not that the grade existed). Is there a problem then? If there is... then why? And if it's indeed ok... then surely it can be useful to suggest ED3 as a rough difficulty in the topic of the OP.
> Likewise, even if someone were to say Walker Spur in winter is ED3 that still doesn't mean much
And this is a short coming of that particular system. It means precisely as much as saying the Walker Spur is graded ED1.
Imagine for a minute that the climate of that mountain was different. Imagine for example the Walker was very cold and in what we consider today as typical winter condition through the summer and much much worse in winter... if in August 1938 Cassin et al made the first ascent (again, in conditions that we currently experience in a 'typical' winter) and graded it ED3 (not that the grade existed). Is there a problem then? If there is... then why? And if it's indeed ok... then surely it can be useful to suggest ED3 as a rough difficulty in the topic of the OP.
Post edited at 13:22
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
In newer to all your questions, during our recent ascent I found it to be TD+
In newer to all your questions, during our recent ascent I found it to be TD+
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In reply to Tom Livingstone:
Well Tom I am afraid you'll have to take ED1 for it because Alpine routes have never and will never get a different grade in winter!
J
Well Tom I am afraid you'll have to take ED1 for it because Alpine routes have never and will never get a different grade in winter!
J
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In reply to Jon Bracey:
All fair comment.
But I can see where a lot of other posters are coming from.
A UK rock grade is for good summer dry warm conditions, it obviously feels harder in poor weather, but its too much hassle to give dual grades or whatever. Some guidebooks may try to give extra info, like "very hard if damp".
I presume the Alpine grade is for good summer alpine conditions.
Again some routes are particularly harder in winter, the Walker sounds like one of them.
Wise boB often used to point out that winter soloists, linking the classic three north faces, rarely did the Walker but some other route on the GJ.
> Winter ascents are often much tougher, and thats why they are called 'winter ascents'.
> Traditional alpine grades are very rough and ready, not giving you much detail of the hardest technical pitches, hence the additional info of rock grades and what you refer to as the Damilano system.
All fair comment.
But I can see where a lot of other posters are coming from.
A UK rock grade is for good summer dry warm conditions, it obviously feels harder in poor weather, but its too much hassle to give dual grades or whatever. Some guidebooks may try to give extra info, like "very hard if damp".
I presume the Alpine grade is for good summer alpine conditions.
Again some routes are particularly harder in winter, the Walker sounds like one of them.
Wise boB often used to point out that winter soloists, linking the classic three north faces, rarely did the Walker but some other route on the GJ.
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In reply to Rick Graham:
Colton-Macintyre. I'd love to climb that route. Both because it looks a great line and because of the British connection as a sort of respect.
> ... but some other route on the GJ.
Colton-Macintyre. I'd love to climb that route. Both because it looks a great line and because of the British connection as a sort of respect.
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