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Hi folks,
random question about how you think your down jacket performs against the manufacturers write up. IE, were you expecting it to be warmer when you bought it, has it lived up to the hype etc.
I only ask as I have a RAB Microlight Alpine and it states "143g (large) of 750FP Hydrophobic Goose Down provides exceptional levels of warmth"
I don't find it warm at all in fact I've got a couple of older fleeces that are warmer and I've got a MH sub zero jacket at 600 fill that Is much warmer. I bought it because I thought it would be warmer than the 600 at 750 down fill. I realise they are different as one is a big puffy jacket and the other is a microlight jacket.
Neither have been used in anger, just me adjusting to the colder weather here in the States and I'm no down expert so I have no idea if a thicker baffle compared to a thinner baffle is supposed to keep you warmer? Also, am I right in saying as the numbers go up they use less down and it is a different quality down?
Anyway interested to hear your thoughts as everything is micro these days due to packability and weight but it seems the big puffy in the cupboard best suits me over here!
Den
random question about how you think your down jacket performs against the manufacturers write up. IE, were you expecting it to be warmer when you bought it, has it lived up to the hype etc.
I only ask as I have a RAB Microlight Alpine and it states "143g (large) of 750FP Hydrophobic Goose Down provides exceptional levels of warmth"
I don't find it warm at all in fact I've got a couple of older fleeces that are warmer and I've got a MH sub zero jacket at 600 fill that Is much warmer. I bought it because I thought it would be warmer than the 600 at 750 down fill. I realise they are different as one is a big puffy jacket and the other is a microlight jacket.
Neither have been used in anger, just me adjusting to the colder weather here in the States and I'm no down expert so I have no idea if a thicker baffle compared to a thinner baffle is supposed to keep you warmer? Also, am I right in saying as the numbers go up they use less down and it is a different quality down?
Anyway interested to hear your thoughts as everything is micro these days due to packability and weight but it seems the big puffy in the cupboard best suits me over here!
Den
In reply to Denni:
Looking at the thin baffles of the Alpine, I wouldn't expect it to be as warm as a less high tech down jacket with bigger baffles, with them both being stitch through in construction to keep things consistent, and the one with bigger baffles having a lower fill power down in it.
With my marketing speak head on, I'm guessing they mean that for the weight of the jacket it provides exceptional levels of warmth, which might be true if you compare it weight wise to a thick and cosy fleece.
I personally don't really understand why companies put down into jackets which such thin stitch through baffles, but perhaps I've not thought of the niche for them in which they're really good to have.
Looking at the thin baffles of the Alpine, I wouldn't expect it to be as warm as a less high tech down jacket with bigger baffles, with them both being stitch through in construction to keep things consistent, and the one with bigger baffles having a lower fill power down in it.
With my marketing speak head on, I'm guessing they mean that for the weight of the jacket it provides exceptional levels of warmth, which might be true if you compare it weight wise to a thick and cosy fleece.
I personally don't really understand why companies put down into jackets which such thin stitch through baffles, but perhaps I've not thought of the niche for them in which they're really good to have.
Post edited at 00:51
2
In reply to Denni:
It's entirely possible I'm not enough of an outdoors person to have found the niche for jackets like the Microlight Alpine.
It's entirely possible I'm not enough of an outdoors person to have found the niche for jackets like the Microlight Alpine.
In reply to Denni:
I've been impressed with the warmth of my Berghaus Ramche 2. I was shivering on a belay in the Northern Corries a couple of weeks ago, put it on and felt great...less impressed however with its durability, 2 pitches later and I had 2 small tears which I've had to patch. Given I heard it was pretty durable (didn't rip after getting caught in the belay device on an abseil during prototype testing) I was pretty disappointed that it took 0 punishment and ripped after 1 route.
Still to find out if this hydrodown will work after a full day out in the wet.
I've been impressed with the warmth of my Berghaus Ramche 2. I was shivering on a belay in the Northern Corries a couple of weeks ago, put it on and felt great...less impressed however with its durability, 2 pitches later and I had 2 small tears which I've had to patch. Given I heard it was pretty durable (didn't rip after getting caught in the belay device on an abseil during prototype testing) I was pretty disappointed that it took 0 punishment and ripped after 1 route.
Still to find out if this hydrodown will work after a full day out in the wet.
In reply to Denni:
I reckon that fill power is less important than construction. Micro baffle jackets are I think all stitch through and with many tubes of down, that is lots of stitching through! That means lots of potential cold spots. Stick some sort of shell over it and I bet it works better than those fleeces (at least until you start sweating) but I think a lot of people buy micro baffled jackets because the look nice and seem fashionable currently. The less cynical argument is that some are ridiculously light and packable.
I reckon that fill power is less important than construction. Micro baffle jackets are I think all stitch through and with many tubes of down, that is lots of stitching through! That means lots of potential cold spots. Stick some sort of shell over it and I bet it works better than those fleeces (at least until you start sweating) but I think a lot of people buy micro baffled jackets because the look nice and seem fashionable currently. The less cynical argument is that some are ridiculously light and packable.
5
In reply to Denni:
They mean exceptional warmth for the weight, presumably it weighs a fraction of the weight of the feece you are comparing it to.
They mean exceptional warmth for the weight, presumably it weighs a fraction of the weight of the feece you are comparing it to.
2
In reply to Denni:
Been pondering similar since I started stocking back up on new gear, and comparing it to old clothing I still have.
I've come to the not exactly scientific conclusion that the reason modern lightweight insulation stuff is so light, is because there's actually not a lot of insulation in them.
It's not exactly comparing apples with apples I agree, but my almost 40 year old Dachstein sweater over a Base layer is noticably warmer than any of the mid layer down and synthetics I have tried, and in a recent test, a Helly base layer, 100 weight polar fleece and pure wool skiing sweater, was warmer than a base layer under a MH Ghost Whisperer!
I also have a Subzero down jacket, and a modern Belay jacket, and my 35 year old ME Cerro Torre jacket is considerably warmer than both. As for these ultra lightweight layers like the MH Thermostatic etc Rab Microlight etc, well you'd be better saving your money and spending £3 at your local charity shop, or putting a newspaper down your vest.
I could be wrong, but I think there's a lot of marketing waffle and a large placebo effect with modern ultra lightweight down and synthetic gear - especially for the kind of stuff many people will actually use it for.
Now where's that old tweed hacking jacket and gabardine smock?
Been pondering similar since I started stocking back up on new gear, and comparing it to old clothing I still have.
I've come to the not exactly scientific conclusion that the reason modern lightweight insulation stuff is so light, is because there's actually not a lot of insulation in them.
It's not exactly comparing apples with apples I agree, but my almost 40 year old Dachstein sweater over a Base layer is noticably warmer than any of the mid layer down and synthetics I have tried, and in a recent test, a Helly base layer, 100 weight polar fleece and pure wool skiing sweater, was warmer than a base layer under a MH Ghost Whisperer!
I also have a Subzero down jacket, and a modern Belay jacket, and my 35 year old ME Cerro Torre jacket is considerably warmer than both. As for these ultra lightweight layers like the MH Thermostatic etc Rab Microlight etc, well you'd be better saving your money and spending £3 at your local charity shop, or putting a newspaper down your vest.
I could be wrong, but I think there's a lot of marketing waffle and a large placebo effect with modern ultra lightweight down and synthetic gear - especially for the kind of stuff many people will actually use it for.
Now where's that old tweed hacking jacket and gabardine smock?
2
In reply to J Whittaker:
I wouldn't try to test this in any real serious weather - down and rain don't mix well, even the new treated stuff. They do seem to dry quicker though. Some relevant comments in here https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=6208
> Still to find out if this hydrodown will work after a full day out in the wet.
I wouldn't try to test this in any real serious weather - down and rain don't mix well, even the new treated stuff. They do seem to dry quicker though. Some relevant comments in here https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=6208
1
In reply to Denni:
I think you've made the mistake thinking that fill power is the be all and end all. For the same weight and construction method, 750 FP will be warmer than 600 FP but only marginally. In the case of your two jackets, which has the most down in it, I'd imagine the MH jacket, so that'll be the warmest The Rab only has 143g of down in it, that's not much.
The things that will affect warmth are
Amount of down
Construction
Fit
Fill power
Of these four factors, the first three make the biggest difference.
Micro baffled down jackets look good around town and will be warmer for their weight than a fleece, as well as being windproof.
I think you've made the mistake thinking that fill power is the be all and end all. For the same weight and construction method, 750 FP will be warmer than 600 FP but only marginally. In the case of your two jackets, which has the most down in it, I'd imagine the MH jacket, so that'll be the warmest The Rab only has 143g of down in it, that's not much.
The things that will affect warmth are
Amount of down
Construction
Fit
Fill power
Of these four factors, the first three make the biggest difference.
Micro baffled down jackets look good around town and will be warmer for their weight than a fleece, as well as being windproof.
2
In reply to J Whittaker:
There's a review just been posted so it would probably be helpful for others for you to add your experiences with your Ramche jacket to that thread.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=658707
There's a review just been posted so it would probably be helpful for others for you to add your experiences with your Ramche jacket to that thread.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=658707
In reply to TobyA:
Cheers for the replies folks, much appreciated.
The microlight is of course half the weight of my fleece jackets but I'm still not impressed by it. I get the fact that it is a midlayer but surely it should be warm to some degree on its own and I disagree with galpinos, it is definately not windproof at all and certainly not warmer than my old hooded Denali fleece, for me anyway.
As you said Toby, all that stitching means cold spots and I appreciate that if you stuck a shell over it it would make the whole set up windproof and you'd be warmer but doing that seems to negate the whole jacket to me. I can wear a base layer, cotton t shirt and a micro fleece and then a shell on top and that would work as well as the RAB and I'd be warmer.
I get that everyone wants everything to weigh a gnats bollocks these days but I'm not convinced it is fit for purpose but on the other hand, weighs nought and is easier to carry on the hills and more importantly to some folk, it looks good :0)
I reckon I'll just have to stick with the massive puffy jacket to keep me warm in the meantime then! Any more views, keep them coming and JWhittaker, I wouldn't want to test any hydrophobic down jacket in the wet. I get the idea but I'm not convinced it would work, better off with primaloft I reckon. Sorry to hear about your jacket, that would seriously pee me off!
Note to self, shouldn't have sold my DAS parka......
Cheers for the replies folks, much appreciated.
The microlight is of course half the weight of my fleece jackets but I'm still not impressed by it. I get the fact that it is a midlayer but surely it should be warm to some degree on its own and I disagree with galpinos, it is definately not windproof at all and certainly not warmer than my old hooded Denali fleece, for me anyway.
As you said Toby, all that stitching means cold spots and I appreciate that if you stuck a shell over it it would make the whole set up windproof and you'd be warmer but doing that seems to negate the whole jacket to me. I can wear a base layer, cotton t shirt and a micro fleece and then a shell on top and that would work as well as the RAB and I'd be warmer.
I get that everyone wants everything to weigh a gnats bollocks these days but I'm not convinced it is fit for purpose but on the other hand, weighs nought and is easier to carry on the hills and more importantly to some folk, it looks good :0)
I reckon I'll just have to stick with the massive puffy jacket to keep me warm in the meantime then! Any more views, keep them coming and JWhittaker, I wouldn't want to test any hydrophobic down jacket in the wet. I get the idea but I'm not convinced it would work, better off with primaloft I reckon. Sorry to hear about your jacket, that would seriously pee me off!
Note to self, shouldn't have sold my DAS parka......
1
In reply to TobyA:
Yes I've 'tested' a few of the escapee feathers from my mk1 berghaus ramche and they've behaved exactly like untreated feathers in contact with water...this was when new so I wouldn't have expected any treatment to have worn off/out.
In response to OP I'd say that fill power, construction and fill all play a part in warmth. A high fill power jacket with little down and lots of stitch through will probably be colder than a big thick offset baffle 600 fill jacket.
For what it's worth I'd only bother with a really warm down jacket...for use in real cold..ie dry! Synthetics for the rest where it may be damp...ie uk most of the time.
Yes I've 'tested' a few of the escapee feathers from my mk1 berghaus ramche and they've behaved exactly like untreated feathers in contact with water...this was when new so I wouldn't have expected any treatment to have worn off/out.
In response to OP I'd say that fill power, construction and fill all play a part in warmth. A high fill power jacket with little down and lots of stitch through will probably be colder than a big thick offset baffle 600 fill jacket.
For what it's worth I'd only bother with a really warm down jacket...for use in real cold..ie dry! Synthetics for the rest where it may be damp...ie uk most of the time.
In reply to Denni:
The modern ones are no where as good as the old 1960s/70s down "Duvet Jackets" They were very bulky, but they were warm. The modern trend is to go for lightness and compactness, but you can't have it both ways. If you want good insulation then you need lots of trapped air between your body and the elements. By going light and compact you can't achieve this.
The modern ones are no where as good as the old 1960s/70s down "Duvet Jackets" They were very bulky, but they were warm. The modern trend is to go for lightness and compactness, but you can't have it both ways. If you want good insulation then you need lots of trapped air between your body and the elements. By going light and compact you can't achieve this.
In reply to Denni:
I bought a Rab Positron last year - it's been used in a variety of (dry) cold conditions - winter N. Wales in the snow at night was probably the coldest - as well as general pub wear on cool evenings and most normal coat uses really.
It has quite a good (in my mind) balance of construction techniques - the arms (mine tend not to get cold) are stitch-through with narrower baffles, and the body is box construction which keeps your core much warmer. I rarely wear much more than a tee shirt underneath it in normal use and I have never got cold wearing it, even in the wind. It also packs down small enough - although not as small as a conventional micro-baffle down jacket.
Then again I tend not to feel the cold much anyway so I think it depends on the person, as I know a few people who get cold almost regardless of what they're wearing.
I bought a Rab Positron last year - it's been used in a variety of (dry) cold conditions - winter N. Wales in the snow at night was probably the coldest - as well as general pub wear on cool evenings and most normal coat uses really.
It has quite a good (in my mind) balance of construction techniques - the arms (mine tend not to get cold) are stitch-through with narrower baffles, and the body is box construction which keeps your core much warmer. I rarely wear much more than a tee shirt underneath it in normal use and I have never got cold wearing it, even in the wind. It also packs down small enough - although not as small as a conventional micro-baffle down jacket.
Then again I tend not to feel the cold much anyway so I think it depends on the person, as I know a few people who get cold almost regardless of what they're wearing.
In reply to Trangia:
I'm glad I'm not entirely in a minority of one on this.
Whilst light weight and compressibility are obviously important, if that is achieved at the expense of warmth - what other purpose does an insulating layer have - then doesn't it all start to become self defeating?
I'm sure you could make all cars lighter by taking out the seats.
Of all the new down and synthetic jackets I've tried, none come close to the stuff from the 70's when it comes to warmth, and a lot of modern lightweight fleeces are no warmer than a five quider from Primark.
> The modern ones are no where as good as the old 1960s/70s down "Duvet Jackets" They were very bulky, but they were warm. The modern trend is to go for lightness and compactness, but you can't have it both ways. If you want good insulation then you need lots of trapped air between your body and the elements. By going light and compact you can't achieve this.
I'm glad I'm not entirely in a minority of one on this.
Whilst light weight and compressibility are obviously important, if that is achieved at the expense of warmth - what other purpose does an insulating layer have - then doesn't it all start to become self defeating?
I'm sure you could make all cars lighter by taking out the seats.
Of all the new down and synthetic jackets I've tried, none come close to the stuff from the 70's when it comes to warmth, and a lot of modern lightweight fleeces are no warmer than a five quider from Primark.
Post edited at 15:33
3
In reply to Denni:
I have the same jacket. Now I've had time to use it I think a thicker synthetic would probably have been more appropriate but it's good for walking around town / being stationary in single digits of there's no wind.
I have the same jacket. Now I've had time to use it I think a thicker synthetic would probably have been more appropriate but it's good for walking around town / being stationary in single digits of there's no wind.
1
In reply to Mi|es:
Totall agree. My old Atom SV is a toasty old beast and certainly a lot more windrpoof than the RAB even though RAB state it is windproof and breathable which to me is a contradiction because I've never had a jacket that is breathable enough and be windproof at the same time.
Nige and Trangia, again agree. I realise every thing these days has to be minimal but I've never been one to weigh everything to shave off ounces. I'd rather have my old Goretex XCR heavy jacket on these days over a pro shell jacket which I do like but I feel more bombproof in it.
Totall agree. My old Atom SV is a toasty old beast and certainly a lot more windrpoof than the RAB even though RAB state it is windproof and breathable which to me is a contradiction because I've never had a jacket that is breathable enough and be windproof at the same time.
Nige and Trangia, again agree. I realise every thing these days has to be minimal but I've never been one to weigh everything to shave off ounces. I'd rather have my old Goretex XCR heavy jacket on these days over a pro shell jacket which I do like but I feel more bombproof in it.
In reply to Denni:
I've used the microlight for quite a few years now, I've had it repaired twice by Rab and it's still going strong but I do run quite warm. A lot of it probably has to do with expectation and your own body type, as I said, I run quite warm so the microlight does me for the coldest days, it's also kept me quite warm when saturated on Skye walking over clach glas blavern on what felt like the wettest day of all time.
I've used the microlight for quite a few years now, I've had it repaired twice by Rab and it's still going strong but I do run quite warm. A lot of it probably has to do with expectation and your own body type, as I said, I run quite warm so the microlight does me for the coldest days, it's also kept me quite warm when saturated on Skye walking over clach glas blavern on what felt like the wettest day of all time.
In reply to TobyA:
I guess even if they are (mainly) fashion items, they help to fund things like research and design if Rab do well in selling them. You've sparked a thought that one could be good to take in my mountain biking pack to go over my pertex windproof during stops to help me keep warm when faffing briefly.
> I reckon that fill power is less important than construction. Micro baffle jackets are I think all stitch through and with many tubes of down, that is lots of stitching through! That means lots of potential cold spots. Stick some sort of shell over it and I bet it works better than those fleeces (at least until you start sweating) but I think a lot of people buy micro baffled jackets because the look nice and seem fashionable currently. The less cynical argument is that some are ridiculously light and packable.
I guess even if they are (mainly) fashion items, they help to fund things like research and design if Rab do well in selling them. You've sparked a thought that one could be good to take in my mountain biking pack to go over my pertex windproof during stops to help me keep warm when faffing briefly.
In reply to Denni:
The fact that its down is neither here nor there - or the amount of fluff in it.
In my un-humble opinion, how it fits YOUR body is the bottom line. Fill a jacket with several pounds of fluff, micro this or micro that, if fits you like an old sack it is not going to keep you warm.
If you go and buy woollen jumper, fleece or a jacket constructed with some unidentifiable filling (perhaps dog hairs?), if it fits closely to your body it is going to be far superior in keeping the warmth where its needed. Your skin!
Probably why we get so many threads/posts with conflicting opinions on different clothing 'systems', and folks complaining they'd bought a Berghaus, Mountain GTX, Polartec Himalayan Maxi Fleece after reading rave reviews then coming on here wanting to know why they are still cold.
The fact that its down is neither here nor there - or the amount of fluff in it.
In my un-humble opinion, how it fits YOUR body is the bottom line. Fill a jacket with several pounds of fluff, micro this or micro that, if fits you like an old sack it is not going to keep you warm.
If you go and buy woollen jumper, fleece or a jacket constructed with some unidentifiable filling (perhaps dog hairs?), if it fits closely to your body it is going to be far superior in keeping the warmth where its needed. Your skin!
Probably why we get so many threads/posts with conflicting opinions on different clothing 'systems', and folks complaining they'd bought a Berghaus, Mountain GTX, Polartec Himalayan Maxi Fleece after reading rave reviews then coming on here wanting to know why they are still cold.
3
In reply to Dave Perry:
Excellent point regarding fit being crucial. However, it's easier to make it, than resolve it.
Being quite broad in the shoulders and chest, but narrow in the waist, I seem to be in a regular no man's land between medium and large.
Get something that fits well on shoulders and chest, and there's loads of baggy space around the middle, get something that's a good fit in the middle, and it's often too tight on the shoulders with sleeves that are too short.
Don't even get me started on trousers
> The fact that its down is neither here nor there - or the amount of fluff in it.In my un-humble opinion, how it fits YOUR body is the bottom line. Fill a jacket with several pounds of fluff, micro this or micro that, if fits you like an old sack it is not going to keep you warm.If you go and buy woollen jumper, fleece or a jacket constructed with some unidentifiable filling (perhaps dog hairs?), if it fits closely to your body it is going to be far superior in keeping the warmth where its needed. Your skin!Probably why we get so many threads/posts with conflicting opinions on different clothing 'systems', and folks complaining they'd bought a Berghaus, Mountain GTX, Polartec Himalayan Maxi Fleece after reading rave reviews then coming on here wanting to know why they are still cold.
Excellent point regarding fit being crucial. However, it's easier to make it, than resolve it.
Being quite broad in the shoulders and chest, but narrow in the waist, I seem to be in a regular no man's land between medium and large.
Get something that fits well on shoulders and chest, and there's loads of baggy space around the middle, get something that's a good fit in the middle, and it's often too tight on the shoulders with sleeves that are too short.
Don't even get me started on trousers
1
In reply to Denni:
I agree with you mate. Whatever the truth of the statement of warmth per weight, there is so little down in it with so many sewn baffles that it is not a warm item. Rab have taken micro and lite too far with this one.
FWIW I run hot but am hard pushed to see a use for this in mountains. But it is a nice jacket for the pub!!
I agree with you mate. Whatever the truth of the statement of warmth per weight, there is so little down in it with so many sewn baffles that it is not a warm item. Rab have taken micro and lite too far with this one.
FWIW I run hot but am hard pushed to see a use for this in mountains. But it is a nice jacket for the pub!!
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
You on the night shift Nick! Hope all is good mate, free lodgings in Washington DC if you ever need them :0)
Hope the family is good and you've managed to get out on the hills.
You on the night shift Nick! Hope all is good mate, free lodgings in Washington DC if you ever need them :0)
Hope the family is good and you've managed to get out on the hills.
In reply to NigeR:
Mountain Equipment make - or made - some of their down jackets with some bands of elastic in the liner to pull it close to the body in cases such as yours. I think PHD might do the same on some of their models. And of course PHD can do a custom fit anyway, and use mega-fluffy down for maximum toastiness
> Get something that fits well on shoulders and chest, and there's loads of baggy space around the middle, get something that's a good fit in the middle, and it's often too tight on the shoulders with sleeves that are too short.
Mountain Equipment make - or made - some of their down jackets with some bands of elastic in the liner to pull it close to the body in cases such as yours. I think PHD might do the same on some of their models. And of course PHD can do a custom fit anyway, and use mega-fluffy down for maximum toastiness
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