UKC

I've agreed to go on a trip to chamonix in the summer with the plan on getting on some of the granite rock climbs, after gazing up at some of the amazing spires on various ski tours around the vallee blanche. (Rébuffat-Baquet (TD+ 6a), Nabot-Léon (TD- 5c), Contamine Route (TD 6a+)) are on the list. As predominantly a sport climber we have got a bit of work to do.

I dont find leading HVS/E1 on limestone particularly strenuous, and am happy with with gear placement, i've fallen on gear and there wasn't any drama. I think we found a gaping hole in our climbing repertoire and got spanked by some HVS-E1 cracks on grit recently, namely Dexterity at millstone. Ended up using crimps outside the cracks, which defeats the point...

Should our main focus be to spend most weekends heading to millstone to get our crack climbing skills up to scratch?

The other areas that obviously need a bit of work are efficiency and rope management. This should be easier with lots of mileage.

My closest crags are the wye valley area, and their good for fiddly placements, and getting the head in gear, but not sure if they are good preparation for alpine granite?

In reply to SFrancis:

As an alternative, you could fly to Inverness or Glasgow from Bristol for about £50 each way and climb multi-pitch mountain granite somewhere like the Cairngorms or Arran.

In reply to SFrancis:
Cornwall is your best bet and some crags like Bosigran will allow you to practice multi-pitch rope work. Placing gear on granite is not nearly as straight forward as placing it on limestone most of the time. The Wye Valley and Avon will help with rope work. You need to be aware that TD should not be taken lightly and you may wish to set your sights a little lower for your first trip.

You should also check the descents. Even if it's possible to Abseil the route it could make you very unpopular and the alternative could involve glacier/snow and ice an all that that entails. It's not wise to view alpine routes as UK trad just writ bigger.

Al

In reply to SFrancis:

The best preparation you could possibly want for mountain granite is to spend more time on the grit climbing any variation of type of route but obviously on cracks if that is your perceived weakness. My other suggestion is to either beg, borrow or even buy a large rack of cams, makes life so much easier on Chamonix granite.

The other suggestion is to head down to Cornwall & get on the granite sea cliffs, sure the real thing will translate perfectly well once over in the alps.
Not going to even bite over the suggestion about heading to Scotland, surely best to save that for when you really want to go to experience the delights that the highlands can offer!

In reply to SFrancis:


If you can onsight 7b then I'd suggest climbing skills are the least of your worries. Efficiency and speed are the name of the game in the Alps, and getting to and back from the mountains without getting knackered or dead. Focus on that.

In reply to walts4:
Not sure I understand why you would want to wait until "you really want to go to experience the delights that the highlands can offer". Surely good climbing is good climbing, and it is worth going irrespective of whether you have a future trip to the alps in mind.

The same argument can be turned around and you could argue that you shouldn't go to Cornwall unless you are totally focused on sea cliffs for the year. It would be equally specious.

In reply to all:

Thanks all for the constructive points. Looks like we will have to put some time in on granite cliffs of the southwest. Makes sense to actually climb on the rocktype. The grit outcrops are easier to get to due to my climbing partners location, and I suppose the real question is will the style of grit translate well to granite? I thought it might, probably a lot more than limestone that i'm used to.

Also planning on heading up to the highlands before we head out, tick a couple of classics as part of the pre-trip check list.

I have a sneaking suspicion that OSing 7b spanish sport climbs is probably quite far removed from the style we are discussing here, especially as Dexterity (which according to rockfax conversion is around 5+/6a) was really hard and for about 10m of climbing took a longtime. Incorporating a lot more of cardio into the plan as well, to try and arrive at the climbs fresh.

In reply to SFrancis:

Would suggest maybe heading up to the Argentiere basin as a first taster rather than off the midi as the slightly lower altitude, easier access to gain the rock, less glacier once at the hut makes it a far better introduction.
The refuge crag & the Aig Genepi are ideal introductions with lots of quality granite to go out & slightly less crowds to get in the way whilst perfecting your granite slickness.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Adding to your reply.

I would have expected a 7b on sighter to be able to onsight E5 or at least E4, not HVS.
So perhaps an in balance in skill set.

As you imply, work on long routes or a lot of pitches on Granite/grit and cardio.

Edit simply altered to imply

In reply to GridNorth:


Really? Fiddly microwires in seams I'm with you, but big granite corners/cracks I would say the other way round...

In reply to AJM:

I always find gear tends to "seat" better in limestone. On granite it quite often has a tendency to look a little more insecure, that's not say it is of course but I always find granite a little more tenuous. As you say it could be the grade and as I tend to climb E grades mostly my experience may be biased. Sever corners/cracks are as you say easy to protect.

Al

In reply to SFrancis:
Interested by you your choice of routes. The Rébuffat on the Midi is ultra popular and needs an approach down the snow arête. You'll need boots and possibly even crampons to get to the base and presuming you climb it in rock shoes you will need to carry these up with you along with a certain amount of other material for in case. The Contamine (presumably on the Lachenal) ditto, but even more so particularly for the descent. I got first degree frostbite doing this route when the storm came in. So at least learn to climb carrying a sack with a bit of weight. I've not done Nabot, but others routes there, and here the situation is much easier. You might get a bit of snow or even ice round the "Cornichons" on the approach which is close to the Midi mid- station, but you can leave all unwanted gear at the bottom and climb in whatever clothes the weather dictates. But remember these are very popular routes and you may be held up and equally unpleasant is knowing you are holding others up. As someone has suggested the Argentiere routes might make a better place to start. As too the Chaine des Ecclésiastiques (Moine etc). If you don't want to stay at a hut or doss the Eperon Bayère from the top of the Montets is in a good position with easy descent (but again with boots and crampons for approach I think) while there are plenty of good granite routes on the Cham side from the M across to multiple possibilities on the Peigne and Pèlerins.

In reply to jcw:

Choice of routes based on what I've skied past and was inspired by / recommendations about routes. They're not dead set, other than the south face of midi which I would love to do if its going well. I know it is super popular, and may require an early start to beat the crowds but i've looked up at it longingly and would like to have a go. Same for the Capucin but that can wait for another season...

I've got boots and crampons, and glacier experience from skiing. Maybe I need to reassess the route choices, but I would prefer climbs to scrambles. I'll look at the routes in the area you suggest, as quieter area would probably be a good place to get a feel for the climbing.

In reply to SFrancis:

Dartmoor Granite may be a bit closer than Cornish sea cliffs. It's not massive, but the The Dewerstone has some decent length routes. Worth popping in on the way to Cornwall anyway...

In reply to GridNorth:

I was thinking style rather than grade - your base of experience isn't really any higher a standard than mine!

If you're climbing granite cracks, I'll say Orco for example since that's my most recent experience, they're fairly clean and continuous cracks that are potentially quite difficult to climb but are child's play to protect.

In reply to SFrancis:
Chamonix wide cracks and slabs are much more stiffly graded than the UK.

I'd advice climbing as many grit cracks of all variety's as you can and a fair few smeary slab routes. The slabs in the areas often tend to be of the friction climbing variety.

Rock wise cornwall is pretty similar or to some extent areas of the caringorms.

Dartmoor isn't a bad call either although its more rounded / weathered than Cham on the whole.

Grit cracks climb fairly similarly although bear in mind granite hurts more to jam any part of your body in it and the slopers are nothing like as secure normally.

In reply to AJM:


But, I suspect more than twice as long You might however have a point although I do maintain that many cracks, especially in faces, on granite seem to tend to flair in the wrong direction whilst limestone produces more cracks that close. perhaps I'm drawn to the face climbs

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

Chamonix granite is generally easy to protect on the classic routes, even with basic nut shapes.

The more modern face climbs have been admirably bolted by Piola and his friends.

IIRC

In reply to SFrancis:

Yes, I understand that re the Midi. It was my great achievement in 1963, the goal of the guide I started climbing with, having lstarted climbing aged 28 the year before. I'd seen the BBC spectacular with Joe Brown et al that summer and climbing it (in big boots) was a revelation for me of what rock climbing in the Alps is about I've done it twice since. The trouble is even starting early I doubt if you'll get in it first. The guides get at it before you. No, just take it in your stride and enjoy. And my other recommendations are not scrambles, certainly not. Best wishes.

In reply to Rick Graham:


I was just about to post the same thing. In terms of gear, I can't really think of ever struggling on the half dozen longer routes that I've done there.

The best suggestion on the thread so far is probably heading to the Cairngorms. About the most realistic training in the UK that I can think of would be a couple of days climbing on the Shelter Stone

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:


and climbing more than one long route per day.

In reply to SFrancis:


When I lived in Sheffield, Dexterity was one of my favourite routes. I never saw anyone else on it so have no evidence as to how others found it but, no matter how many times I did it, it always seemed E2 for effort, say F6a+/6b - and I was good on grit cracks. So I just wouldn't give yourself a hard time about it. Just a different style of climbing for you, I suspect. With better transition, you'll be flying up stuff like Dexterity.

Mick

In reply to SFrancis:

A weekend on Arran doing South Ridge Direct (or maybe Anvil Recess Start) and West Flank Route will sort you right out. The style of climbing, length of approach and mountain environment are just what you need.

In reply to SFrancis:

I climbed Nabot Leon and the Contamine when I was only leading HVS (I did pull on some gear on the Contamine) and they both felt about HVS to me (with a bit of A0 on the Contamine) so in theory you shouldn't have too much trouble with the climbing but at that time much of my climbing would have been on grit, so perhaps getting up to speed on HVS gritstone cracks would be useful.
Notwithstanding the possibilty of storms, neither route requires any great Alpine skill, I don't think Nabot Leon requires any glacier crossing at all from what I remember.
I think the TD grades are a bit meaningless on this type of route, a good rock climber with little Alpine experience should find these easier than they would find a lot of the classic AD's.
The Contamine involves some fist jamming on the crux pitch which friends who have freed it reckon feels like E2 and contrary to the UKC description, large friends were what we needed (to supplement the old rotting wooden wedges!)

In reply to DaveHK:

How come you get a like for that good suggestion, but when davidbenyon suggested something similar he got 4 dislikes?!

oops, I'm turning into offwidth...

In reply to SFrancis:

Some really great suggestions and responses in this thread, thanks to all involved I appreciate it.

I think the plan will be to get as much mileage on cracks / traditional style climbing as possible and a couple of long weekends to Isle of Arran / Cairngorms and Cornwall. Should hopefully put us in good stead.

I'll give dexterity another go before we head out as a bit of a benchmark test