UKC

I know we're all busy with Brexit, Tories and atheism but I'm a little surprised that no-one has highlighted this issue for discussion yet. Looks like it's kicking off a bit at the moment, with the Guardia Civil raiding Catalan government offices and arresting seniors officials, and the central government overriding some of the region's financial autonomy:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/21/why-do-some-catalans-want-ind...

Anyone got any insightful thoughts, views or opinions about this?

In reply to Martin W:

No thoughts particularly on Spanish Catalunya but it always struck me that the French Catalan identity was far less militant. How would an independent Catalunya work on the French side of the border, if at all ?

In reply to Martin W:

It's worrying. The limited coverage it's getting in the UK mainstream media is surprising given the arrest of democratically elected politicians/officials, the raids on media outlets and the seizing of referendum material. I understand 70% of the Catalan population support the holding of a free referendum. There are demonstrations of support this weekend in Scotland where some people may see parallels. In my view it's simple. If they want it the Catalan people have a right to self determination.

In reply to alastairmac:

>In my view it's simple. If they want it the Catalan people have a right to self determination.

Its not that simple. Catalunya spans across two nations.

In reply to GrahamD:



That doesn't alter the principle.

In reply to The New NickB:

I was replying to the " its simple" part, irrespective of views on when regions should or shouldn't have a right of independence. In this case it clearly isn't simple because Catalunya is currently run by two states and doesn't (as far as I know) have a unified Catalan government in waiting.

In reply to Martin W:

When we were there in August we travelled exstensivley and everywhere we went we saw "si" banners. In Ripoll the historical heart of Catalunya they have the biggest Catalan flag you have ever seen. I saw no "no" banners.
As a Brexiteer I bought myself a "Si" T Shirt from the rebels

In reply to Martin W:

No insights particularly but there seems to be a majority against independence even with the Spanish Government being so intransigent. I'd have thought it better for them to let the referendum go ahead and see the separatists lose. At the moment all I can see them doing is driving Catalans into the separatist camp.

In reply to GrahamD:


How small does a faction need to be before this isn't true, do you think?

In reply to Removed User:

Cruise ships full of riot police in Barcelona port....


Spain has discreetly hired ferries to be moored in the Port of Barcelona as temporary housing for possibly thousands of police specially deployed to keep order in rebel Catalonia and help suppress an illegal independence referendum.

The country’s interior ministry asked Catalan port authorities to provide a berth for one ship until Oct. 3 -- two days after the planned vote -- saying it was a matter of state, a spokeswoman for the port said by phone Wednesday. The vessel, known as “Rhapsody,” docked in the city about 9:30 a.m. Thursday, she said.

The aim is to amass more than 16,000 riot police and other security officers by the Oct. 1 referendum, El Correo newspaper reported on its website. That would exceed the number of Catalan police, the Mossos d’Esquadra, who serve both the Catalan and central governments.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

furfuxake

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

That's nice, I'm going to Barcelona on Saturday!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-41350949/nicola-sturgeon-calls-for...

Well, she would, wouldn't she...

I recall the situation in Spain being cited as a reason why Scotland wouldn't necessarily be welcomed with open arms by all existing member states if it had wanted to apply for EU membership as an independent nation.

In reply to J1234:


I don't get this statement - Catalonia becoming independent is equivalent to Scotland becoming independent
It's not equivalent to Spain leaving the EU

In reply to Carless:


No, it isn't equivalent. Catalunya spans across Spain AND France. More equivalent to Cyprus becoming independent of Greece AND Turkey.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


Its an interesting question. To which I have no answer. Forming a state in this day and age I think you would actually want upwards of 50 million population unless you have some natural resource that makes you 'rich'.

In reply to GrahamD:

True enough, so even more complex
but I think it's only the Spanish part that's proposing to have a referendum

In reply to Removed User:


Yeah, that approach has worked well in the past, hasn't it...?

In reply to GrahamD:

Barely. As far as I am aware the proposed referendum and independence would apply only to Spanish Catalonia.
French Catalonia is more of an historical thing than a political reality at this point in time.

In reply to RomTheBear:

How about remainers secede from Brexiters? All those towns that voted remain can enjoy E U benefits ;all those voting Brexit will have to renegotiate. People will be free to move home.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


I was going to ask the same. I'm sick of my local council and the government. Self determination for the boundaries of my property!

In reply to RomTheBear:


Almost but not entirely. The language isn't dead and there is plenty of graffiti about in that part of France (not that that signifies too much). If Spanish Catalans really look like getting independence it could cause a bit of unrest on the French side though.

What we are really saying, though, is that its about Spanish regional autonomy rather than Catalan independence (or Basque in the north for that matter)

In reply to GrahamD:



Exactly

In reply to Martin W:

Funny thing: Though EU is furious about Polish reform of the Constitutional Court and Hungarian reform of university education (they call it threats to democracy) they are silent about this

In reply to Martin W:


Didn't Spain declare that they'd welcome Scotland into the EU once Brexit had been voted for.
I'm sure they only did it to stir up trouble, but maybe it's coming round to bite them on the a*se.

In reply to Carless:

Probably thinks that anything damaging/weakening one of those foreign nations is a good thing.

In reply to fred99:


Er, not as far as I can see. For example, this from April this year:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/spain-foreign-minister-alfons...

Mr Dastis also said that Edinburgh would have to apply for EU membership, standing by his guns that Scotland would have to join “the back of the queue”, risking to spend a long period of time outside of the union waiting to rejoin.

Which rather goes against some claims made during IndyRef1 that Scotland would basically just remain an EU member if it achieved independence.

In reply to Martin W:

I think the logic in round 1 was that Scotland would have already been an EU member as part of the UK, therefore an newly independent Scotland shouldn't have to apply for EU membership.

When we finally leave the EU, Scotland will leave with us, as part of the UK. If Scotland subsequently leaves the Union, it will have to get to the back of the queue.

I don't necessarily agree, but I think this is a nutshell version.

Clearly Spain, for its own reasons opposed Scotland simply being invited in.

In reply to kipper12:


I think that 'logic' was fairly vigorously disputed at the time.. It ended up never being tested, of course.

Have look at this from September 2014: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29184664

There was a time when the Scottish government said that "Scotland would automatically be a member of the European Union upon independence".

Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon argued that case before a parliamentary committee in 2007.

But the Scottish government's position has changed over time.

The White Paper on independence acknowledges that "negotiations" would be required and that it would be for EU member states to decide how to proceed.

Note that the BBC is reporting what the FM and Scottish Government themselves said at different times during the run-up to the referendum. It's not an opinion piece.

Things have moved on since then, of course.

In reply to GrahamD:

The only French Department which has a substantial Catalan following is the Pyrenees Orientales, plus Andorra where road signs are in both French and Catalan. Over the years most of the names on IGN maps in the eastern Pyrenees have been changed to Catalan, etang changed to estany, crete to serra etc but only in the PO.
Catalan is still taught in school and in our village the Catalan flag is often flown and we have many Catalan festivals.
As has been said before, this is a hangover from historical times before the Franco Spanish war after which the border was redrawn giving France the northern part of the old Catalunya.
Whilst the Spanish part of Catalunya has a financial incentive for independence, being the wealthiest area of Spain, the PO is totally the opposite, relying on funding from central government.
Whatever happens in Spain, I doubt that anything will change in France.
Regarding the referendum, if you examine matters a bit more closely you will see that one of the concerns was that this was not likely to be an open, independent vote. The 5 organisers are all on the "out" side and the whole operation looks to be far from independent. Despite all of this, all of my Catalan climbing friends are fervent independent campaigners - no surprise there then!

In reply to Martin W:


Yes, please stop mentioning it, you'll have An Gof up in arms again...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Gof

In reply to GrahamD:
>. Forming a state in this day and age I think you would actually want upwards of 50 million population unless you have some natural resource that makes you 'rich'.

Why that number? I reckon three quarters of the states in the world are under that.

In reply to TobyA:

Why 50 million ? because its of the order of UK size and I'm seeing how much clout we don't have has a single isolated entity.

Existing states are a different matter from trying to establish the state from scratch with all the civil service and public sector to set up.

In reply to GrahamD:

Just checked - South Sudan 12.23 million (although that is model for absolutely nothing beyond how to totally **** up a brand new country) and East Timor 1.269 million (teeny tiny!). I think they are the two newest countries if Kosovo doesn't count (1.8 million).

In reply to Martin W:


Does everyone in Spain get a vote? I doubt it, But if they do not they should because it affects everyone in Spain

In reply to profitofdoom:


Why? That was (correctly) not the case for Scottish indyref, or, for Shootourselvesintheheadref.

In reply to Dr.S at work:


But that's what some here claimed, that everyone in Europe should get a vote on Brexit, as it affects everyone in Europe...

In reply to Big Ger:

And some claimed for indyref that the rUK should get a vote as well.

It's clear that Catalonia leaving rSpain will have a negative fiscal effect on rSpain, so the rest of the Spanish populace will be heavily affected - but if we uphold the ideal of self determination then we have to accept the possibility of that consequence.

I wonder to what extent the potential for negative effects on rSpain feature in the campaign in Catalonia? They did not really appear to a great extent for indyref.

In reply to Martin W:

I was on the top of Mont Valier in the Ariege a year ot two ago. We shared the summit with a few folk from Catalonia. They were nice people. I asked them about Catalonia and independence. They explained one or two things but they quickly started singing a song. The song got more and more animated until they finished yelling, screaming and stamping their feet with wide eyes and red faces.
Once they left, we had the summit again to ourselves and the lammergeiers.
Powerful juju, nationalism.

In reply to Martin W:

Isn't it a bit like London and the south east voting to leave the UK, fed up of stumping up for the rest of us?

Incidentally Catalonia is borrowed up to the nuts.

In reply to Martin W:
One side has a legitimate electoral mandate that the constitution has democratic legitimacy.

The other side also has a legitimate electoral mandate that the constitution does not have democratic legitimacy.

Imposing a constitution against an electoral mandate is anti-democratic and inadvisable.

Not imposing a democratic* constitution is also anti-democratic and inadvisable.

It might not be constitutional but letting the vote proceed seems more advisable.

There is no good answer.

*constitution is almost Franco era?

In reply to alastairmac:


Until you realise that the UK MSM is through and through unionist and would like to keep any noise of self determination well under the rug.

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:


I find it fairly prominent on the BBC website, there have been some articles in papers I glance at.

If you wanted to play a Unionist conspiracy game, I'd have been pushing it up the agenda - look how nasty things get in other countries, isn't the UK nice by comparison.

In reply to ian caton:


That was one of the specious claims made by the nutty Cornish Nationalists, for wanting to split off from the UK.

In the October 2001 Business Age Magazine (p18), Kevin Cahill wrote about the economy of Cornwall. In "The Killing of Cornwall", he notes that HM Treasury in London extracts £1.95 billion in taxes out of Cornwall's GDP of £3.6 billion. The Treasury returns less than £1.65 billion, so there is a net loss to Cornwall of 300 million pounds, where the total earnings figure is 24% below the national average.

Cornwall is getting poorer by the day, and Cahill offers this explanation: "One very simple and easily provable answer is because the Government in London is raping Cornwall fiscally. The fiscal deficit of over £300 million all but completely explains the increasing pace of impoverishment in Cornwall."

Cahill concludes his Business Age article with the lament that Cornwall will not recover until the gap between the tax take and the exchequer give is at least neutralised and better still, reversed.

The magazine ceased publication in 2002, having gone bankrupt for the second time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Cahill_(author)

In reply to Dr.S at work:


There is a certain logic to that point of view. The spanish constitution vest sovereignty in all of the people of spain as a whole, not the people of each autonomous community of spain.

Anyway, its alright now, the police have turned up in a big ferry decorated with giant paintings of wile e. coyote, sylvester and tweety pie on the side.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/22/inenglish/1506073837_902110.html

In reply to Martin W:

I was really shocked by the actions of the police shown on C4 last week. Officers wearing helmets and body armour laying into passive protesters sitting on the ground with long batons. No sign of any attempt to remove people without violence. Hope this isn't the future of policing over here.

In reply to GrahamD:


Sure, but that isnt the point. Being rich is of lesser importance than being oppressed.

History shows us that peoples have always voted for self-determination and nationhood and thus the consequent risks of financial collapse and poverty, only when they felt oppressed enough to do so, ie literally physically oppressed at that time or around that time; Kosovo, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, East Timor, South Sudan, or if physically oppressed/invaded within recent enough memory, such as in Norway (1905).

Basically, if you think youll get thrown in jail, persecuted, shot, invaded, or lose your business etc for expressing your oppinion, culture, language, youll be more inclined to simply put a cross on a paper, if given the chance.

The converse is also true, for Scotland in 2014 or Quebec in 1980, when the key ingredient of real oppression wasnt there or sufficient enough to make a difference in voters minds.

Rajoy and the the Madrid governments policy in Catalunia is completely understandable in a Spanish context and it might well work if current Catalan nationalism fades away as a result. However, they should keep this history lesson in mind when dealing with Catalunia, if they believe like I do that if Catalan nationalism doesnt go away and it if it grows even more, that there is inevitably going to be an official referendum there sorner or later.