UKC

What is your experience in discrepancies of grading for routes/problems comparing indoor to outdoors?

As ever, grading is subjective so I'm looking for opinions taking into account other factors that you may or may not face indoors and out.

In reply to yh001:
Best redpoint indoor: 6c+
Best redpoint outdoor: 7b

Why? I am better at cruxy things than relentless sustained pumpiness (which is a bit of shame given that I fly to Kalymnos tomorrow ), and am not motivated to put serious effort into projecting anything on plastic.

Boulder indoor: 6C+
Boulder outdoor: 6C+

In reply to yh001:

I find indoors far more physically demanding because there are less opportunities to use my feet effectively. Permanently featured moulded walls are better in that regard but I find it difficult to make the grade comparison. I can climb 6c and 7a outdoors on a good day but can't get near that indoors. One issue is that I don't redpoint

Al

There are three major sources of discrepancies between indoor and outdoor grades:

(1) indoor climbers go outdoors for the first few times, realise the holds aren't marked and their technique is s***e and fail around unable to climb anything remotely related to their indoor grade. Especially true of bouldering and trad.

(2) Indoor bred route setters with no real idea of their proper grade set routes over years according to their own standards with not real reference to their ability outdoors. Double true for those chances setting problems / routes that they can't actually climb (an increasing phenomenon)

(3) Grading systems developed for X being applied to Y. Typical of this is Font grades being used to describe all sorts of indoor climbing and then the indoor climber going to Font for the first time and getting spanked or someone translating sport grade prowess into grit stone trad failure.

A related phenomenon is the personality of the setter - someone with a perverse like of manky slopers will set very differently from someone who favours tiny crimps, tall / sort, strong / technical, etc etc at you grade limit the style seems to matter a lot.

The main purpose of grades is for you to choose a route that is a nice challenge and not death on a stick for you - this requires a bit of experience to get right, by the time you've got this more or less right you can cope with and appreciate the inexact science of grading.

In reply to yh001:

As a general rule, I find route climbing indoors considerably harder than outdoors (sport), and bouldering considerably easier, at the same grades.

Indoor route climbing is set as a one size fits all solution and often the setting doesn't account for clipping positions whereas bolt placement outdoors usually gives you a decent hold to clip from (at least in the grades I operate at). Outdoors if you get used to trusting smaller footholds then you can usually find one that gives you the right body position to get you through a move. Indoors you don't have this option.

Up to about V5/f6C+ Bouldering walls are generally massively juggy compared to outdoor bouldering, have massive footholds, and are way easier than outdoor climbing at the same grade.

Trad climbing and indoor climbing seem to have very little similarities. The fitness and strength from indoor training has some cross-applicability.

In reply to yh001:

I find indoor much easier than outdoor and I climb mainly outdoors. Maybe twice a month indoors and 7 or 8 times a month outdoor. Been known to climb the odd 7b indoors but can only just about get 6b+ outdoors or e1 on trad.
The bright colours in the wall telling you exactly where to put your hands and feet make it much easier.

In reply to Andypeak:

I'm the same. For the same grade, indoors usually seem a grade or two easier than outdoors.

In reply to yh001:

I've climbed "harder" outdoors than in.

Sport is 7a+ compared to 6c+ and bouldering is 7B compared to 7A/+.

Indoors always seems for more physical with fewer options* to work out your own way of doing the crux/problem. I'm also more inclined to work a problem/route outdoors.......

Generally, if I do manage to climb an indoor problem in a different manner to which it is set, it probably is an easier method not spotted by the setter and as such, is probably a grade or two easier than the one given

In reply to RockSteady:


Yes I concur, though it's hard to say whether I really find outdoor climbing easier or if I'm just more motivated to try harder.

I find indoor bouldering grades largely meaningless outside of the context of a given centre. So long as they are self consistent that's all I'm really bothered about.

In reply to yh001:


One huge discrepancy, in my opinion; they simply don't compare at all well. Moreover, making the comparison is unnecessary - it's not useful, and nobody's forcing it on us. Why not just think of indoor and outdoor sport as having two different grading systems? Imagine the indoor grades prefixed with an I, if that helps

In reply to yh001:

When it's raining I find it much easier to climb indoors than outdoors

In reply to yh001:

Depends.

Good routesetters grade consistently and the grade is often about the same as outdoors. Especially If the problems are overhangs or roofs.

Slabs are different, as outdoors you have more sh!tty holds to choose from than indoors (again good routesetters take this and size difference into account).

In reply to yh001:

See attached link to an article by Neil Gresham on Climbing Grades. He talks about Sports grades about half way down.

https://www.climber.co.uk/skills/skills/climbing-grades.html

I always thought that the french grading system was the grading of the hardest move on the route, and so indoor and outdoor sports route grades should equate (roughly). However Neil's article says that the French system doesn't work like that, and that it is an assessment of the overall difficulty and strenuousness of the route. Thus a relatively short route at a climbing wall (say 8 - 10m) will have slightly harder moves than a 35m outdoor route.

That could explain why I can't touch my outdoor grade at the climbing wall.

In reply to planetmarshall:


I agree with both of these points. Frankly I climb a lot more often indoors than out, but I use it for training rather than achievement. So I don't employ redpoint tactics indoors, dogging routes, learning moves etc, having multiple goes on the same route in a session - when I used to do this I found it was one of the best ways of getting a finger injury. I think this is because, as mentioned above, indoor route setting often doesn't account for clipping in the easiest way, and I find that one ends up clipping off much tweakier holds than one would have to outside.

Looking at last few years I generally climbed similar worked grades bouldering indoor and out, but my indoor flash grade bouldering is way higher. Outdoors flash grade for routes similar to indoor onsight grade. Outdoors redpoint grade 2-3 grades higher than indoors.

In reply to duchessofmalfi:



Does this really happen? I climb at a variety of centres and can't imagine someone setting who only climbs indoors, I also don't know anyone who sets problems they can't do.

In reply to yh001:

Outdoor 7b
Indoor 6c

Mainly because I enjoy sport climbing outdoors but cannot stand indoor leading. I do enjoy indoor bouldering however

In reply to yh001:
Well my experience of indoor bouldering grades is that they're way overgraded compared with outdoors.

I go to Manchester walls, Rockover and the Depot and I bumbly up to V3/4 indoors but can't manage V2 on grit.

In reply to yh001:

When I go on a sport climbing trip, I invariably find that I am onsighting near enough the same grade as indoors (at Ratho). However, I am sure that I could redpoint a full grade harder outdoors (though I almost never do redpoint outdoors). The indoor routes are physically harder but (obviously) easier to read than outdoors.

In reply to yh001:

Can't even get outdoor grades consistent. Not gonna tie in with indoor grades!

In reply to yh001:

I find outdoor bouldering easier - I've done dozens of V6s outdoors compared to maybe 2 indoors. And I used to do a lot of indoor bouldering, working the problems for ages. As others have said, indoors is much more physical whereas many problems outdoors seem to be graded for "trickiness".

I find indoor routes easier. All sport climbing I do is on limestone, usually polished, which I don't like and have never really learnt to climb. I'm also scared on sport routes outside whereas when I'm into it indoors I get used to falling. I've also tried the same indoor routes many more times than outdoor routes (after 3 tries outdoors I'm normally so bored and dispirited that I swear never to go back to the crag, let alone the same route) but it's more that indoors you don't need to find the holds and it's far less scary, so "onsighting" is much much easier.

In reply to yh001:

Generally I find indoors maybe half a grade easier. Of course it varies from venue to venue, and wall to wall.

In reply to yh001:

I work on +2/3 grades for indoor. Foundry 6c normally feels 7a/+ to me

Indoor onsight max 7a
Outdoor onsight max 7b

In reply to TonyB:


As a setter, yes it happens.
I'll admit I'm more of an indoor climber, though I love outdoor just as much. I just happen to spend more time on plastic.
Anyhow, I've had comments on my routes before that they are often very outdoorsy. But I try super hard to vary my setting, to get a mix of styles. My setting is, tbh, only occasionally inspired by outdoor climbs and movement that I have personally experienced on rock. Other times it will be inspired by moves indoors, on videos, athletic movements or sheer nonsense So it's easy to imagine someone that has zero experience on rock can still set plastic routes. Especially those with a background in comp climbing, which is becoming very common now in younger climbers.

Also, every setter I know sets harder routes and problems than they can climb. I avoid setting too far over my ability, but I feel I know and understand the movements I'm trying to create , and often can do the route in parts, or judge by the feel of moves. It's part of the challenge of setting.
Having said that, when setters try set way above their grade, it's often crap or soft.

In response to the OP, I think of indoor and outdoor as totally different things, I like an idea that was mentioned here of imagining indoor grades are prefixed by an 'I'.

In reply to yh001:
If I'm counting correctly, so far we're at eleven to five people climbing higher graded routes outdoors than in - perhaps not what you were expecting - with various non-physical motivational factors playing an important role in why people think this is so. And those of the eleven who name an actual grade generally operating in the low to mid French 7's.

So the simple blanket "wall grades are soft" idea might apply in the lower grades or to people with more wall than outdoor experience, but apparently not to experienced mid grade & upwards sport climbers. For me personally I find there's a crossover at about my onsight level. Below that wall grades usually feel easy, above that harder.

In reply to yh001:

It's the outdoor stuff I find varies a lot

Kalymnos, Spain similar to indoor

UK a bit harder sometimes similar

Dolomites harder

Slovenia harder than anywhere!!!

In reply to AlanLittle:






Don't worry there are cruxy routes at Kalymnos

In reply to AlanLittle:

I make it 8 to 5, but yes it's the same result really. It's funny that the lower grades might feel easier at the wall but those nearer one's limit harder. I wonder if good onsight/redpoint successes tend to stick in the mind more outdoor than in? I would say definitely they do!

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


List please

In reply to Michael Hood:
I think the Depot walls now have a uniform ranges for white circuits of V0 to V2; blues, V1 to V3 and blacks V2 to V4; across Leeds, Manchester and Nottingham. In my experience on the grade alignments I used when guidebook checking the normal outdoor equivalent ranges these seem to me to be fun (f2) to V0- (f4); VB (f3) to V1 (f5+) and VB (f3+) to V3 (f6A+). So for the easier circuits the ranges are in the right place of physical difficulty for the customers and the setting is usually excellent but the labelled V grades are sometimes just plain wrong. More people need to ask for these easier "indoor V grade" alignments to move as it gives a false impression to thise transitioning outdoors (difficult enough as outdoor problems on average around V1 have worse holds and landings). The reds are in my experience outdoor V1 (f5+) upwards so again the advertised low end (V3) is way too high but the top end seem OK from pals who climb better than me. Translating UK outdoor font or V grades to font grades in font anything below f6A you can typically subtract a number from the font UK outdoor equivalent (so our UK f4+ outdoor grades will typically feel f3+ as graded in font). Depot black V2 will often be f2C in font.

In reply to yh001:

I find the grades indoors far easier than outdoors!

But, then, I did start climbing indoors...

Fear, dirt, polish, delicacy, range of possibilities... all seem to play a role.

In my limited experience, indoors the holds just aren't as small and awkward as outside. Unless you're talking grit, in which case, indoors just doesn't do friction well. Plywood vs. slowly cooled, large crystalled extrusions of volcanic rock. Indoors doesn't do jamming well, either...

Then there's the fact that instructors indoors are constantly plagued by bumblies complaining "tha's never 6a+, that must be a 6b+ at least!", whilst lower-grade outdoor boulder problems are often put up by some wad warming up ("that's... somewhere below font 7a... I'll give it a 5 I guess, since that's what I've given all the others..."). A case in point, go climb The Crack (V0) - a classic "V0" (English tech 5c, no doubt) at the Langdale Boulders, and compare that to a V0 ladder in your local gym.

In reply to yh001:


Biggest discrepancy is that the outdoor climbs I climb seem to have grades with weird letter combinations at the front of them (occasionally a letter and number - these seem to be harder) followed by another letter/number combination that looks like the indoor grades I'm used to but doesn't seem to bear any relationship to them at all. I'm confused.

Martin

In reply to AlanLittle:

Check out The Beach. I did a few there that started easy a terminated in one or two powerful moves.

In reply to C Witter:

But since you only can *climb for real* outdoors, certainly only outdoor grades matter...

So which one is correct, to outdoor one or indoor?


That being said, that there are a lot of sandbags around. But these do get corrected in future revisions of the guidebook. But it also goes the other way, when perhaps a sneaky new sequence is figured out...

That being said, I'm quite fond of these fangled online/voting based topos, as big errors tend to get fixed "soon". But they are also prone to miss use. E.g. an indoor n00b heading out and finding th lack of bright orange holds perplexing and thus thinking that the easy f4 slab is atleast f6b+ ('cause he couldn't do it, and he has climbed one 6b inodoors).

In reply to C Witter:


One of those problems which is just completely the wrong grade. It's V2 IMO, being a few UK 5c moves. f5+.

But the indoor jug ladders graded V0 aren't, they're VB or whatever. I guess they just need to start at a level below the outdoor bouldering that the V-grades were developed on, and progress up in reasonable steps. Many walls seem to do this and meet normal V-grades around V3.

In reply to HeMa:

Well, in this case, both grades are wrong. Outdoor grades do sometimes vary pretty wildly.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Yes - I think you're right Jon: if you're an instructor, you need routes you can use - for novices and children and warming up. And if you're training you don't always want a "realistic" climb; a good steep jug ladder has its uses.

In reply to C Witter:


Yes, but is it because you did not understand the problem (a'la 'bleuasards) or because it's absolutely a soft/sandback.

In reply to yh001:
In my experience:

Indoor sport is harder, usually because it's pure power-endurance with no meaningful rests, whereas outdoor routes tend to provide spots to shake out, as well as better clipping positions. There's more reading and thinking required outdoors, but only some of the routes (i.e. the beastly overhanging ones) are count-downs to the pump. Indoors, anything that's not set in a corner is designed to pump you out, depending on your level of ability to make progressively bigger moves on smaller holds. When you sport climb indoors, your level is thus usually set by how long your forearms can operate above the maximum steady state (i.e. how long you can climb under strain without pumping out). Outdoors, most routes are more a blend of power, technique, reading, and some stretches of power-endurance pump-management, but separated by rests of varying quality.

Indoor bouldering, by contrast, tends to be much easier than outdoor (at least for me). Probably because of massive footholds, helpfully coloured holds, safe landings, obvious lines, and sheer variety of problems, vs. outdoor crags where unless you are somewhere incredibly varied and huge, all the problems are likely to be of a particular local 'style' it might take a long time to work out and get good at.

In reply to yh001:

If you find outdoors harder than indoors then you're strong but with poor rock climbing technique It amazes me how many high grade sports climbers can struggle with E5/6,s which are seldom harder than 6c/7a

In reply to rocksol:


I find indoor easier than outdoor and I'm weak and do the majority of my climbing outdoors. I do tend to try and onsight everything which is generally easier at a wall plus I suspect its rather wall and grade dependent.

In reply to GrahamD:

What's holding you back on trad is confidence although E2/6b seems about a right comparison Having said that I've done some 6b,s outdoors that would be E3/4 with not very good gear All indoor walls I've climbed on are definitely harder grade for grade compared with outdoors

In reply to HeMa:

The real problem can be capable climbers voting traditionally on problems well below their sensitivity range. As an example lower grade Font slabs are pretty much all sandbags on some site votes. Gritstone UK tech 5a on a route is often f3A on similar moves over there. This idea the bleuasards spread, that people are missing the sequence, is clearly bullshit in such cases as there is only padding and pressing on a pure friction slab.

In reply to LuapRagas:

I disagree. On a decent day I'm pretty confident I'll onsight any short power-endurance route on any crag right at my top indoor red-point level. I believe that the main difference is contact time.

In reply to HeMa:

Wasn't me who disliked your comment - but, I do find it funny to see you diagnosing my climbing faults from a distance. Have you thought about becoming a climbing coach, given your amazing powers of insight?

It's true that some problems can unlock with the right sequence, but some boulder problems and other climbs are just hard or soft for the grade. That's generally accepted - even if people are happy to spend hours debating exactly which routes are hard or soft for the grade; and even though having or lacking certain types of experience (e.g. grit, cracks) might make a climb seem easy or hard for a particular climber. I tend to agree with Offwith that some routes or problems are graded by people climbing much harder, who are less sensitive to the differences between lower grades; and then there are differences between different eras, geographic differences and so on.

In reply to Offwidth:


Surely Font grades in Font are correct by definition, like the standard meter or kilogram.

In reply to yh001:

Mate I find there's discrepancies between grades at most venues... Just compare Kelly's Overhang at stanage to Manchester United, both get HVS hahaha
The same is true of big indoor venues, particularly Awesome Walls in sheff. There you're likely to find consistency of grades only if it's the same setter(!)
Same is true between different rock types.. E1 on peak lime can be quite different from grit, with the latter often having harder moves and a higher chance of decking!
Basically, you're taking an infinite set of probable holds, multiplied by an infinite spectrum of different body size/shapes and trying to apply a linear scale to this? Never gonna be accurate in every case for every person. But if you get your head into it, you can often find some sort of internal consistency or logic. For example, I find routes at horseshoe main wall really hard to onsight, but the grading seems consistent on the red point.
Anyway, it's all just a bit of fun at the end of the day, and if you enjoy it as much as I do then crack on!

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Although Yosemite isn‘t the benchmark for the Yosemite Decimal System

And lord help us all if 6A means „about as hard as La Marie Rose or La Science Friction“

In reply to C Witter:


I actually do coach kids .

But I was in fact speakin’ in general. I’m quite shite at this climbing thing. But at least I acknowledge it. Some people seem to think a classic font slab being a terrible sandback, but quite often those indoorwall bred climbers are just not very good at slabs.

Oh and quite often I do find the grades to be spot on. Especially in ’blea.

In reply to AlanLittle:

It should. Marie Rose is spot on correct for the grade.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

You would think so but it must be something like randomised effects of quantum mechanics. It sure couldnt be that some problems given the same grade as others got much harder when polished to a sheen. All those experts and votes would then be wrong.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


I’ve spent the last couple of trips keeping an eye out out for the fabled f3a with uk tech 5a moves to no avail. Maybe Offwith needs to up his slab technique?

In reply to yh001:
This is annoying but Stanage is different to the Wilton’s is different to Portland is different to Dartmoor.
You just get used to them and you know what, thinking on it my max grades are pretty close.
It is wierd though that grades just under my boulder max are mostly flashable but no way outdoors.
I suppose part of the problem is I know those lumpy yellow holds so I can almost guess what to expect and therefore visualise the solution almost immediately.
However, what are those quartz crystals like at the top of Famous Grouse on Bell Tor? I’m not visualising that!
The Quay is fixing this with imagination, by changing very frequently and I think they’re changing some of the holds somehow (can you file them down?).
I don’t mind the difference I just account for it.

In reply to ElArt:


That’s not that uncommon. You mentioned to obvious reason of getting accustomed to the holds and a lot easier to read. To other (not that obvious) reason might be that indoor grades are not spot on .

For me, my boulder flash grade is about the same indoors or outside. But then again I know that the route setting Team is rather good at the gyms I climb.

I do climb harder indoors, for 2 simple reason. The conditions are often better or consistant. And also the holds are more climber friendly, as outside it is pretty much only granite, meaning skin eating crystals or miniscule finger shredding crimps. The 3rd bonus reason is that generally all indoor routes are either impossible or soft touches .

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Name me some pof polished friction slabs that are not. I can give my list if required.. on pretty much any popular orange circuit other than Elephant (softer rock there so doesnt polish quite as efficently maybe) ..especially any such problem at Cuvier and Apremont Dessert. The average grade difference on those circuits is a f3A is around gritstone UK 4b in those areas. In the less well, travelled areas f3A is more like just below the difficulty we would grade (ie UK 3c). I'm a bit locked into automatic grading after all these years on guidebooks... so why would you be so focussed on the difficulty of lower grade moves well below your limit, as I doubt you are being serious that you are really looking to contradict my assersion.

In reply to Offwidth:

strange... none of the AD/+ ones I've done are anywhere close to the effort of hardest moves of HVS and to be fair VS'es either.

So places like 91.1, Franchards, Bois Rond and a lot others.

In reply to HeMa:
Grit HVS and VS 5a friction moves are hardy an effort. We will have to agree to disagree: again your ability is a lot higher than mine and you won't have the wealth of grit boulder grading we have (we pretty much grade checked eveything below f6A in the latest BMC and YMC grit guides). YMC use UK tech 4b as their f3+ standard with 5a as f4+ I think pof polish easily makes up that difference (and if you use pof the problem feels a good bit easier).

In reply to Offwidth:

True, in fact I haven't climbed a single problem on Grit.

But then again most of my climbing (roped or boulders) is on granite. And seems pretty consistant. 6b/+ boulder slab is something I tend to get up in few goes (if reasonable landing and not too morpho). And oddly enough, that was also what the crux sequence of a lovely bolted slab route was all about.

And indoors, the slabs are about the same (or actually harder), on boulders at least (I don't do rope stuff indoors).

The circuits I've done in 'Bleau (AD/+) have never had harder climbing than granite Nor/Fr 5+ climbing, which is at it should (so the boulder is then around f4+ max). It's true though, that since I'm a weakling, most of the hardest rope stuff has been on slabs... it isn't true on boulders (in fact, the 6b/+ is often the best I can do on boulder slabs indoors, and outdoors perhaps a notch harder).

Oh Hargreaves' Original in Stanage, it had almos harder moves than any of the AD/+ circuits I've done. Granted it was my 1st day on grit, but still. Even during that day, I climbed at more or less my normal level. So the mid 4s that are the hardest on problems on AD/+ circuits are max 4c and since the Tech 'should' equal F, this seems pretty spot on.

In reply to Offwidth:

Hi Steve,
I really enjoy buzzing around a complete orange or yellow circuit as a warm up as my old bones need some proper exercise before going on the other circuits, so I’ve done all those circuits at Apremont for example quite recently. Added to which I’ve been climbing Brit trad for long enough to know what 5a feels like.
Not deliberately trying to be argumentative, just don’t get it.
Paul

In reply to yh001:

Went sport climbing outside in Spain and Sardinia this year, found I was climbing a full number lower than indoor, mainly due to route reading difficulty, but also a bigger fear of falling when outdoor rather thAn indoor

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
I really don't get why you don't get it we often climb with big groups who all find the same issues. F3+ in the YMC guides is bog standard UK tech 4b and Font grading in font is generally acknowledged as being harder and the hardest problems are usually down to pof polish. Pretty much any popular orange circuit I've done has a F3C with Uk 5a moves. At the extremes of grading we even found a 5b move on a kids white circuit (the one at Rochet Sabot...a variation problem that bridges a groove and rocks onto a slab). Of other recent circuits we did Yellow at Elephant had a f4+ish roof problem so its not just slabs.

In reply to yh001:

I think it depends on a lot on the climbing wall. For example our local wall (Undercover Rock) tends to make the easier grades stupidly easy compared to outdoors (e.g. 5a is like a step ladder). I think it's because they don't want to put off the beginners, if a new climber couldn't get up an F4 they might give up!

In reply to GrahamD:

Further illustration of mind over matter I overhear a conversation at Awesome Sheff yesterday where someone said they were building mentally to lead Sloth They then jumped on and sent a 6c !
Ron and myself used to tandem solo down Sloth !

In reply to rocksol:

I agree that a 6c climber shouldn't be worrying about HVS/E1(!), but what's the relevance to this thread about comparing indoor/outdoor sport climbing? I find indoors easier than outdoors, despite most of my climbing being on real rock (trad).

In reply to AlanLittle:

Yeh im surprised how many people are claiming indoor grades are harder... thought it must be down to motivation and atmospheric conditions (can pick a good friction day outside, indoors is always sweaty and warm), but I supposed the level of the climber is also relevant. Lower grade routes are definitely easier indoors, but maybe that is down to the ability of the setters? at a guess most route setters will operate in the 7's, if not harder, so have very little concept of what a 5 should feel like, whereas at least a few outdoor routes will be put up by people who operate at the lower grades.

In reply to rocksol:
>
As I recalled in 2006.....

"An afternoon sometime in the mid 70s I was standing on the pedestal below Sloth summoning up the courage to launch out under the overhand when a body appeared at the lip soloing down it .I am pretty sure it was a Phil Burke whose breath smelt like he'd had a good lunch .
He stopped briefly to give some advice ("Don't mess about with nuts , just stick yer sling round the flake and go for it " I felt so foolish I did and it worked).

He then continued to the bottom and whilst walking over to his mates (I suspect Mr.Evans may have been one of them) , tripped over to general hilarity all round . I suspect he did this on every visit ."

Thanks for the advice!! Incidentally I don't think I'd have got close to 6c but ndoors at the time if it had existed!

In reply to HeMa:

HeMa, yes the Granite is as forgiving as a cheese grater on the tips and I suppose you’re rightish. Cosmetix (classic) has big holds, so has Hidden Traverse (jugs all the way) and BilB but is still hard and pumpy like the indoors big holds.

Maybe indoor grading is actually harder considering you:

a. Know the venue inside out.
b. Try harder (safer + ego).
c. The holds are easier on the tips.

Maybe it’s the mind impressing on us experienced climbers with an opinion that outside routes are obviously more important.

As Freddy Flintoff says I suppose you should train like you play. I’ll take indoor climbing a lot more seriously.

Didn’t Ben Moon plaster Paris the Hubble moves onto a board??

Anyway that’s a variation on the theme but I appreciate the indoor trg more now.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
Finally had a minute to do some research in Jingo Wobbly.. I'd still suggest you realign your grading:

The following are all the popular Orange Circuits listed with highlighted problems that are f4C (pretty much universally regarded as at least UK tech 5a ) or above from Jingo Wobbly Fun Bloc (note they all get lower grades, often much lower, in the white guide):

Beauvais Lotteville Sud # 1, 16 (f5A), 30 (f5A), 31(f5B)
Beauvais Telgraph up to f4A
Beauvais Nainville up to f4B
Rocher St Germain up to f4B
Rocher Canon #5,
Bas Cuvier #9
Apremont Bizons #10, 28 (f5A)
Apremont Gorges (Centre) #1 f6A, 4 (f6B!), 6, 7 (f5B), 8 (f5B), 9 (f5C), 10, 11 (f5B), 13, 14 (f5B), 15 (f5B), 17 (f5B), 18, 19 (f5A), 20 (f6A!), 21 (f5A) 22 (f5B), 23 (f5A), 24 (f6A!) 25 (f6A!), 26 (f5B), 27 (f5A), 28, 59, 61 (f5B), 63, 64, 68, 71 (f5A), 72 (f5A).
Franchard Isatis #24 (f5A)
Franchard Cuisiniere Est #2,
Canche aux Merciers upto f4A
Bois Rond upto f4B
Rocher Potet upto f4B+
95.2 #11
Roches Sabot upto f4a+ (the white circuit brute was 36b)
91.1 #25, 16 (f5A), 19 (f5B), 45
Cul de Chein upto f3A+
Rocher Guichot upto f4B
Rocher Potala # 50, 53
Diplodocus #5 (f5B) 13,
Rocher Fin #15 (f5A-)
Rocher Cailleau upto f4B (even in JW very sandbag graded in our view with numerous problems at f4C)
Buthier Piscine upto f4A+ (also sandbag graded in JW... including a nasty f4B polished layback, possibly #43)

..the yellow cave f4C roof problem at Elephant was #16

In reply to Offwidth:

I'll only comment on these two circtuits, since I did them last spring (the other ones, I've done so long ago that have no real notes on them, other than that there were no notes... so nothing to suggest they were sandbags).


Which orange circtuit, 91.1. has 2. I assume (from the high grades) that you are talkin' about th the AD+ one. That was the one I did. And while some of the problems were scary high (with sometimes sub-optimal landing), the grades in Bleau.info seemed spot on. ( https://bleau.info/91.1/circuit104.html )

And the hardest being 4+ (certainly not 5b).


Again, did a short run of these problems one misty morning, as it was looking like it would start to rain... it did later and some drops fell whilst I was romping these up.

Bleau.info says 3+ ( https://bleau.info/guichot/circuit109.html ), and I'd say it's about ok... perhaps I'd give a few of the problems 4. But nothing out of the ordinary, nor major problems.

In reply to HeMa:

I respectfully disagree. JW picks up real sandbags in my view (if anything my experience is the grades are conservative) and I've been unable to climb some of them despite never failing on anything like those grades anywhere else in the world. Bleau.info doesn't get any volume of votes from lower grade boulderers so the voting is heavily biased to those with no real feel for the problems. f4s are not graded for the views of f7 and above climbers anywhere else in the world.

In reply to Offwidth:

That a comprehensive piece of work Steve.
I was under the impression that the grading in JW is his own internal system (it’s described in the intro in one of the books), wheras the White Guide is proper Font gratings fwiw. and correlate ok with bleau.info
I did the whole Ap Gorges Orange last month before getting spanked by some of the blue and red (and rightly so!) and don’t recognise those wacky Jingo Wobbly grade levels, I would normally flag up internally if I encounter highball 6b

In reply to Offwidth:

And I disagree with you and the grades of JW. F4s have about the same where ever I have climbed. Both on granite (What I climb, and have used) to, in Scandiland and in the Alps (Ok, Tessin has gneiss, but I’ve climbed that a bit as well). And also sandstone in ’Bleau, Albarracin and Horse Pen 40.

In reply to HeMa:
So we disagree as we expected. The difference is I'm a F6 climber (at best) honed to bouldering guidebook grading for others and bouldering with others in the same capacity (and agreeing with another experienced guidebook worker and his team) and you're a f7 climber (at best) speaking as an individual. I'd add that even with all my experience I can get problems on grading f2 problems sometimes if I don't concentrate (and watch others) and if I fail to do this I can easily miss the mild sandbags.

In reply to Offwidth:

As usual I'd love to see your personal list of sandbags. I honestly am not being difficult, just interested, as a low grade punter in comparing notes. I personally find the last problem on the orange circuit at Rocher Guichot, although the closest to the car park to be one of the most difficult 3+ in the forest. The blue next door is much, much easier.

https://bleau.info/guichot/8943.html

In reply to fried:
It was a nasty slippery slab wasn’t it. I recall that some of the ones near the parkin’ really required presise approach. Not to mention, the few drops made things even more slippery.

But then again, ’Bleau is ’Bleau. And there are a few low graded ones that I can’t get up. But then again, it’s the same elsewhere. A collection of bad bodyparts means that I simply can’t do the moves. That doesn’t mean that the grade is wrong though.

In reply to HeMa:
You don't fall off F3s for such reasons. Glad you are starting to acknowledge some grades are plain wrong. UK tech 5a is comfortable for me I can't recall any problem of that grade requiring more than a bit of thought after a slip to suss out. Some polished f3s have made me work incredibly hard on precise technique after many tries and some I've still not done. A friend I was chatting to indoors last night thinks you must have one the strangest skill sets in the world and a complete inability to see others struggling or much more likely in his opinion be a 'wind up merchant'. He climbs your grade (f7A is his best at Font) and agrees entirely with me on the generality and the problems I find hard... also does UK guidebook work.

In reply to Fried

Yes Guichot is another place I've struggled on F3s... I went there a lot on my early visits so havent been back to reclimb and write down our view on the specific grades there. As for the serious sandbags.... the list above is pretty similar to mine (I just found a lot of others at lower grades... ie F1s approaching F4A (UK tech 4c ... standard middling VS technicality route moves) .. that JW didn't amend. One day we might produce a website to help. Similar to Offwidth.

Font often has a delightful family fun atmosphere and is great for beginners, bambinos and bumblies if you just ignore the grades and look low grade enough in the colour circuits so you can climb a reasonable sample of problems and remember things vary a lot from area to area. The Rochet Sabot kids white circuit as an example would be similar to a depot blue circuit but some easier kids white circuits are more like depot greens.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
We need a new system for font grades in font as sub f6, grades are so broken in Font in that they don't relate to the actual difficulties of the actual problems in anything other than a general correlation (ie most f3Cs will be harder than most f3Bs but f3Cs might range from unpolished UK f3+ to the occasional f6A pof ice rink). I don't agree with all David's designations and yes I've found the odd problem is maybe overgraded but his grade is always much closer than the white guide grade in such cases. Most JW grades in my view are undergraded especially in the f1 and 2s, where polished problems sometimes deserve UK tech grades from 4a. The YMC also developed their own font system for their recent grit guides in the grade ranges brits are very familiar with: ie f3~ UK 4a, f3+ ~UK 4b , f4~ UK 4c, f4+ ~ UK 5a, f5~ UK 5b, and f5+ ~ UK 5c (and also logically extended it down a bit). As a BMC UK tech based lower grade problem checker moving to help YMC that made life easy for me. I'd hope these benchmarks could become the new standard for the UK and Font as they are logical and fit to the range where font grades actually work (ie from F6A up). It would be great fun to see UK tech grades that were seeded by font grades go back home and sort out the mess the French have made of their lower grade problems (by ignoring upgrades for polish).

In reply to Offwidth:


And I don'¨t fall off. I simply aren't willing to do the required moves, as it would likely to cause my twice stitched menicus to shred to pieces. But that doesn't mean the route isn't F3 or F4.

Oh, and I haven't climbed F7 (in 'Bleau at least).

But the main thing is that I've actually realized that there are problems that I won't be able to climb, and it has nothing to do with grade (in fact, even on my home turf there are F4s that I can't get up, simply due to the amount of bad body parts).

And like I said, I've bouldered quite a bit around Yurp and a bit in the states. Even Sub F6s, the grades do seem to match. 'Bleau is no exception.

In reply to Offwidth:

It seems to me that if you want to argue about Font grades in Font then you need to talk about discrepancies between grades of problems in Font. UK tech grades are irrelevant, its like arguing about the definition of the SI meter based on an obscure Imperial unit like furlongs. The French are just going to fart in your general direction.

youtube.com/watch?v=ey0wvGiAH9g&

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


They will, no matter what.

That said, by definition if the problem is a well established one and it is in Fontainelbleau forest... by definition it is correct ('cause the grading system is named and based on the climbs in the forest).

If the bastard child of said systems (UK Tech) has evolved, then it is the one that is flawed .


Oh, and pretty much every single problem on circuits should be considered as well established one... at least on the ones that people generally climb...

In reply to HeMa:

I haven't been for a long time but one of the joys of the place for me was to forget about grades altogether. Just pick a colour and have a nice time following the circuit around without all that "I should be able to get up this, it's only 5b" (or whatever). I can see how it matters but it's really not that important to me as a visitor.

Matters a bit more for highballs I guess, but that kind of judgment isn't a bad skill to have.

A bit like a competitions - did my first bouldering comp in probably 15-20 years - and it was great to just look at the colours and have a go. Work out the shapes in your head, maybe a sneaky bit of beta from the people in front and have a go. I didn't win mind.

In reply to steveriley:

True. Part of the charm of ’Bleau is you see a nice lookin’ feuture, if you have enough pads and it ain’t Too high, you can simply try it. Grade doesn’t matter.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
I have two issues:

1) Font grades sub 6 are all over the place (with only a general average correlation of increasing difficulty with grade)
2) The YMC system (which is pretty similar to all other UK Font grading sub F6A) is a logical consistent system that works and could be applied sensibly in Font by brits and thats what we are slowly doing.

In reply to Offwidth:




I suggest holding a public meeting and trying to get the locals onside with the Yorkshire Mointaineering Club taking over grading in Font because they've been doing it wrong. There'll probably be some push back at first but as soon as you tell them its about bumping up the F3s to F5s so British climbers don't get sandbagged they'll probably see the funny side.

Maybe do it quickly though because in a couple of years you might have problems getting a visa to enter France.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:



You really need to embrace your inner snowflake #sandbag #regrade #bleausardbullies

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
I'm easy to lampoon (and being a climber would expect no less), yet I've been fighting grading battles at the bumbly end alongside a few hardy folk almost since I started climbing and have no fear and plenty of determination. The grades in the YMC and the BMC grit guidebooks have already been 'assimilated'. I don't need to convince bleausards as guidebook workers like JW will just publish better grades (and the lower grade masses buy most books), but I would hope they consider the logic and the evidence and change ( like many previously unconvinced Brits did when we sorted out most of the historical lower grade anomalies on gritstone). French people and all other visitors get sandbagged just like the brits.

Its funny how grade accuracy is so important when you get to punter grades (arguably f7A at font). Sure we can all have fun and ignore the grades but grades can be useful to plan a great day (as opposed to a frustrating one), to hone progress and to avoid (currently often hidden) prang potential.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
I've seen bleausards 'bully' climbers who were abusing the rocks with massive overuse of chalk or brush, and commended them. I share most of their concerns and joys, including the art of discovering hidden movement that makes an improbable looking problem solve beautifully. I can also smell bullshit when up to my ankles in it on a polished problem I can't climb that is graded 3 when I've just worked a near identical looking problem graded 5 (the 'grit HVS' grade of font).

In reply to Offwidth:

Fixed it...


And I've seen my fair share of this happening elsewhere (a super classic boulder called Hallonpinving in Grottan Åland, 6a and 6a+ as assis... gets constantly upgraded to 6c/+, simply due to the fact that it is balancy and technical, by indoor bred climbers). Some people climb to chase grades (or get ticks on their logbooks & guidebooks). Often the wall bred ones are more goal (ie. grade) oriented, so they end up chasing the grade, and the classic 'uber technical' nature of Font doesn't suit their skillz (powerful compression on overhangs... it must be a terrible sandbag. Yet the bleusards, that can't climb harder then F6a max, cruises said F3+ slab with ease... Adn the indoor bred F7b crusher...well... can't get of the ground.

Egoboosting is one thing, getting rid of grading abnormalities is another. As a reality check, AD circuits *do not* have problems harder than F4+ (in 'Bleau). And thats a fact´ (unless it was established less than a year ago, and hasn't really been climbed that much to get rid of the sandbags).

So I ask again, which one is incorrect, the F3+ slab that has been 3+ for ages (and generally argeed as such, even by older 'bleusards that do not climb harder than mid F5s) or the persons attidute that thinks he should get up everything up to a certain grade? ....Well, it ain't the grade. Just like with everything related to grading, it assumes that you master that particular type of climbing, and then it is that given grade... or the problem might be a morpho.

The File feels a lot harder, if you try to laybakc it... But is the File then E3 5C, because I can't jam and have to layback that sloping edge & place blind gear? I think not.


Just to add, that in part we agree... Polish makes problems harder, but then again do you need to get up every problem? And if we change the grades constantly, do we need to take into account changing skill sets? Since often wall bred climbers are bad at slabs & mantles (so uprgade them all), and they are strong (so downgrade all juggy overhanging problems)... Same applies for jammin' skillz, do we need to upgrade all climbs that are easier to jam than to climb other ways?

In reply to yh001:
Indoor grades bear little or no relationship to outdoor grades and even less to trad grades. Whether this should be the case is, perhaps, another debate that would be worthwhile although I can see some difficulty achieving that. I would however expect there to be a little more consistency in indoor grading as there are less variables to take into account. An odd plus or minus here or there is to be expected i.e. person A thinks a route is 6b, person B thinks it's 6b+, person C thinks it's 6a+, this will NEVER be reconciled but anything more than a full grade difference seems excessive. I did an indoor route recently that required a dyno from an offset starting position, how can this in any way qualify as a 6a+, which is what it gets, and is far more difficult than any other 6a+ in the centre. Even if it is a single move surely it warrants 6c as in my book a dyno should warrant UK 6a minimum. My senses are pretty accurate in this regard as I have been climbing for many years and operate at onsighting grades between 6a and 7a depending on how much mileage I have consolidated previously. Can someone operating at 8a really accurately identify a 6a grade? I have problems distinguishing between a 5a, a 5b and a 5c.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:


Just by climbing something... most likely not.

But a good routesetter can actually make a route that is pretty spot on. So it's about expertice (in route setting).

BTW. There can be offset 6a/+s, thats not even that uncommon. But due to the indoor nature (ie. holds), such problems tend to be rather morpho easily. Or they are simply wrongly graded (see above about route setter skillz).

In reply to HeMa:
I would have thought that climbing a route is the best, some might say only, way of establishing it's grade.

A full on dyno with a "launching" foothold offset well off to one side 6a+ ? I disagree. Even a dyno with starting and finishing jugs from good footholds directly underneath warrants a higher grade than 6a+ IMO. I would be interested to see peoples views on that.

Al

In reply to HeMa:

I was going to say it takes a brave man to say pof affected rock like font has no problems harder than f4+ on an AD circuit, but realised that would be generous. You're an idiot or a troll.

The many routes we upgraded by two grades or more in the definitives were judged by experienced guidebook workers being as conservative as they could (Chris Craggs had arguably overdone it a little in the previous guidebook series: at Birchen with thise VDs that went to VS) and often with no indication of vote problems (on UKC) from the masses you worry so much about (just the odd cryptic complaint on the logbooks from other experienced people we trusted). My views on font have been formed alongside many of the same people, of all shapes and sizes, all of whom are regular visitors there and are experienced graders with wide skill sets. We always grade for the right skill. Incidently on that subject the multiple similar cruxes on Hargreaves would be in my view be around f3A in font and the File crux would be f4C (compared to the classic orange f4A jamming crack at diplodicus)

In reply to Offwidth:
So Hargraves tech grade should be 3A, not 4C.

After all UK tech is supposed to be the Font grade of the hardest sequence.

In reply to HeMa:
I'm saying I think Hargeaves is easy UK tech 4c and that style of move from rounded break to rounded break on a steepish slab is typically given f3A in Font. I think the polished Diplodocus jamming crack is easy UK tech 4b (maybe 4a in some harder graded grit venues) and is given f4A. So the bleausards clearly have grading issues based on style as well as ignoring polish. Its fair enough that some areas develop skills more than others, that lead to slight grade differences (like US slab grades being a bit harder graded than UK slab grades) but not by 4 grade notches.

In reply to Offwidth:


Sorry, couldn't resist.


I wouldn't argue some of the things which get F3 at Font are probably about F5. But I don't see low grade accuracy as being a major issue. There's three real categories: easy, hard and impossible. The only place I care about the marked grade is in the 'hard' part of the spectrum. For most people the difference between F3 and F4 is well inside their 'easy' category and doesn't matter, if you occasionally get sandbagged by something marked as F3 it's just a bit of extra amusement.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Climbing is fabulous in that the joy of movement on rock can be experienced by almost anyone and grades really help with that, which is why they developed. What possible cost or disadvantage is reliable grading?

In reply to GridNorth:
I did an indoor route recently that required a dyno from an offset starting position, how can this in any way qualify as a 6a+, which is what it gets, and is far more difficult than any other 6a+ in the centre. Even if it is a single move surely it warrants 6c as in my book a dyno should warrant UK 6a minimum.
>
Sounds like a Craggy 5+

In reply to GridNorth:


It assumes a french sport grade, therefore a reflection of the overall difficulty of the route and not one single move. How difficult was the remainder of the route? If the dyno was f6c and the remaining moves were f4 - f5+ then f6a+ might be correct.

As an aside, I am very much up for investment in grading and educating climbers in such matters. On Southern Sandstone the grades have been English Tech up until the recent guidebook (2017) where french sport grades are included to offer a broader definition (i.e. what is a Tech 6a? french sport 6b or 7a? A big difference). Every year, students will come down from the London universities and set up their dynamic ropes (the ethic is static rope to protect the rock) and dog on English Tech 6b because they believe it is the same difficulty as the f6b they climb indoors!

I find it astonishing that Ivy League uni attendees take so little interest in what they do. Even the absence of + grades doesn't suggest to them the grading may be different. By offering the french sport grade this can now be avoided and see visitors enjoy their climbing at a more suitable level.

In reply to Fishmate:


I know that which is why I did not say the dyno was F6c rather that it was, IMO, UK 6a. You cannot have a f6c "move" as you rightly point out the french system is for the whole route. This is why I made the conversion, but taking the single hardest move is a good starting point for arriving at the grade. I didn't finish the route but the first half, if it had continued in the same manner, would have been at least f6a.

Does anyone else think a route that includes a UK 6a move can come in at f6a+? I'm genuinely interested.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:


Actaully you can. Rainbow Rocket and Hale Bob in ’Bleau are classic examples of such.

As for your orig. note, I wronly assumed that it was a problem (so boulder) and not a route. For a boulder it would be Ok. But you’re right on a route the grade is not correct.

In reply to GridNorth:

I'm not understanding why you think a dyno must be at least English 6a? If we accept that Font grading is generally correct, I was watching people try a font 5a dyno next to me in Canche aux Merciers three days ago. It was definitely a dyno and definitely not English 6a (soft 5b in my opinion). Of course, I can't comment on your experience.

I would put f6c (sport) as top end English 5c but we're probably splitting hairs. You may have just climbed a poorly set route... it happens. But yes, I think an f6a+ can have one English 6a move in it or two even, but I would expect them to be soft in the grade if linked by comparably easier climbing.

In reply to Fishmate:

Because in my personal experience all the dyno moves I have done or know of are typically on a f6c route. I'm willing to be proved wrong but I would need more evidence and the opinion of more than one person.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:


No

In reply to GridNorth:


I had the old Portland guide which used E grades, as well as a newer one using F grades, and there was at least one conversion of an E1 5c across to a Fr6a. I don't have an example of a direct cross comparison, but that example suggests it isn't impossible. It would be very cruxy mind you. E2 can cross-translate to 6a+, and E2 6a does exist albeit fairly rarely.

My friend, after spending some significant time falling off, did a Fr6b which he swore blind had a solid Font6b (at least uk6a?) sequence to leave the ground. But that was a Zappa wall slab at Buoux, so may exist in its own special category! (On a more serious note, thin grey slabs can pack some really rather hard moves for their given grades, so if I traveled back through the logbook my suspicion is that I might find you a perfect example from that style)

In reply to GridNorth:


6a+ is usually about E1. You can certainly get 5c moves on E1s but they're usually very safe and just off a good rest. 6a moves on E1s do exist but they're usually boulder problems straight off the ground. Plenty exist on grit.

But I remember a friend explaining that the grades of bouldery routes in France tend to get a grade more in keeping with the font grade than the route grade. This sounds weird to me but explains why some of those bouldery routes often seem really hard for their grade.

In reply to stp:

6a+ seems to be used in Austria as a sort of "E1 5c" grade - some very hard isolated easy cruxes on otherwise easy routes where they apparently don't want to give the route "6b" just for one move.

Not to mention one that AJM & I did in Kalymnos just this afternoon. My second fall off a route in the french 6a-ish grade range in the space of a month. Hurrah!

In reply to GridNorth:



Good post. In my local wall there has recently been a tendency for sandbagging in the lower 6s and it's incredibly frustrating, as well as risking injuries for climbers who are trying to warm up. I agree that all points off dynos have no place on an indoor route below F6c, and even on that it should usually be the crux. But it happens quite a lot, especially when the routesetters are principally boulderers.
I think I grade indoors accurately at my usual warm up level (F6a-F6b), around my usual onsight level (F6c/+ish) and around my usual level of getting a route in a few goes (F7a). If a routesetter is setting outside those bounds (which they often are) they should get someone who does climb at those grades to check the grading. Where the grades are all over the place I think there are two things involved: lack of route-climbing experience, and lacking the humility to accept that you got the grade wrong and change it. My feeling where there are a lot of sandbags is there's a bit of 'well it feels 6a to me' going on.

In reply to GridNorth:



I haven't read the whole thread but no I've never graded anything with a UK 6a move anywhere near f6a+. I don't think many climbers who are at their limit on a f6a+ will be able to do a UK 6a move, most will be bouldering around UK 5c. Much more likely to be in the high f6s in my opinion.

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:


True,

A UK 6a move can be found on rouhgly f6c to f7a routes. Rule of thumb has been for ages that detuct one full number from the route rgade of a cruxy route and it should be around how hard the crux would be as a boulder... So f7a route should have around F6A problem as the crux part. But naturally if talking about boulders, thenUK 6a move can indeed be found in F6a problems. After all UK tech is supposed to be based on Font grades.

BTW. what misguided me on GridNorths topic above was his use of capital F when talking about grades.

Quite often lower case letters are used to indicate french route grades (so f6a meaning french 6a route). And upper case letters for boulders (F8B for Font 8B boulder). It's easy to read and understand... Problems arise, when you read F6a or even worse F6A, so you assume it's a boulder, whilst the other person is talking about routes

In reply to yh001:

Let's not beat about the bush. Outdoor grades are the only ones that matter.

In reply to HeMa:


More true for middle of the road rather than cruxy routes (unless perhaps you mean "slightly cruxy" as in "has a crux, not pure stamina", where I think "overgrown boulder problem").

Very cruxy 7a would easily be more than 6A crux, I've done ~7A on 7c before and 7A on 8a certainly isn't a mega cruxy 8a.

In reply to HeMa:
The defined format in most UK guidebooks is F6a for sport and f6A for boulders. Its highly important and could do with standardising everywhere as there is still much confusion between the two (this was one reason given in support of V grades that is still being proved right). The BMC now use Font 6A just in case... clunky but perhaps wise.