UKC

Anyone able to advise on a good personal locator beacon? (As a last resort emergency item for solo walking in remoter areas of UK).

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

No.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Thanks. Big help.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

Anyone able to advise on a good personal locator beacon?

A mirror?

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

One of those tourist maps with "You are here" written on it?

Or one of these? http://www.discountbicycles.co.uk/biz/product.php/7493/4465/avenir_axle_fit...

Mind you, you may require some kind of extension pole for hilly terrain.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:
They’re pretty new tech to the mountaineering world, so good luck getting many sensible answers that aren’t just cognitive dissonance veiled by sarcasm.

I got a spot gen3 when I was started heading off skitouring on my own - a transceiver is all well and good if people know where to start looking in the 1st place: Cheap-ish and tells someone where you are / that you’re ok if you’re out of reach of a phone/signal. Otherwise it just stops your family waiting a month or two for the snow to melt.

As it weighs nothing it often finds its way into my pack on less adventurous trips out too (but that could just be to justify the cost of subscription for the rest of the year).

Out of interest, if you’re an AC member you can borrow the inReach version.

In reply to Phil_ncl:

See the end of this video, where Steve House mentions packing a personal locator beacon (as well as a paper map) in passing as if it were completely self-explanatory requiring no further comment.

youtube.com/watch?v=uEVbQfg7nvg&

If the people sneering at the OP think they are gnarlier than Steve House they are probably mistaken.

In reply to AlanLittle:

+1 to that

Having just moved to New Zealand, I get the impression they are fairly standard kit here to carry when in the hills/mountains.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

I'm not sure why people are coming up with sarky replies...

I carry one for solo ski-mountaineering. I have this one - a shade over 100g, and tiny. Happily sits in my pack all season.

http://www.crew-safe.co.uk/acatalog/Ocean-Signal-PLB.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChM...

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

My partner uses a Spot device. It requires an annual subscription but seems good. It has check-in facilities as well as SOS, which gets sent to the emergency services.

She uses it for fieldwork but I've seen some outdoor folk with them also.

In reply to James Jackson:


I think it's because UKC forums are full of dicks

Mind you a SPOT (or InReach) are not actual PLB's, but commercial versions of it. Less reliable and has service fee's, but has (a little) two-way communication and tracking. Don't forget the pay for the service or you might get stranded without help.

A proper PLB is a 406mhz beacon, that uses the same system as the emergency beacons on airplanes (ELT's) and ships (EPIRB's). More reliable (both the satellite system and higher requirements for the beacon itself) and no service fees. Do make sure it's registered! Pick one with GPS, as it's more accurate and quicker for rescue crews, instead of just using the homing beacon.

PLB's, SPOT or InReach are all pretty compact and light, so pretty good options to bring with you. If you are cheap and only use it for rescue, pick a PLB. All of them are technically fine, as the requirements of a PLB is pretty high. As for SPOT and Inreach, issues have been reported.

In reply to James Jackson:



That looks a pretty dinky piece of kit. I didn't realise they could be so small.

In reply to AlanLittle:


I'm sure they don't, but it does reduce House's gnarliness a little bit.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

PLBs for are in common use in New Zealand and Australia. A question posed on forums based in either of those countries might get better replies.

(As others have already noted, 'Spot' isn't a conventional 'PLB.')

In reply to geordiepie:


Or maybe because these things pose a genuine question of the erosion of the spirit of self reliance in the hills.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:
Are you sure you want a personal locator beacon rather than a tracker? Plbs require you to be conscious to operate them. A tracker will give a location whether or not you are conscious.
The plb will always get a signal through a tracker may not, but, it is going to give some very good information to those looking for you anyway.

In reply to Robert Durran:


No they don't......if you want to be self reliant then don't buy one.

In reply to geordiepie:


Well yes, but what if it gets to a point where, as I think has creeped in with mobile phones, it is considered a bit irresponsible if you don't carry one?

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

Here's another option: https://www.mcmurdogroup.com/mcmurdo-products/mcmurdo-fastfind-ranger/

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

Do you have a horse?

In reply to toad:

Horses for courses I'd say. A trip round the cairngorm plateau it would be a little over kill. Heading off looking for a lost tribe in Papua New guinea it would in the top of my bag!!

In reply to Robert Durran:

On one of my involuntary bivvies of recent years my phone battery was dead, on the other I had no signal. I was quite warm & comfy the whole time, just a bit worried about people worrying about me unnecessarily. Clearly wouldn’t have triggered a beacon on either occasion.

In reply to AlanLittle:


I guess a phone does allow a more measured response. If someone had worried about you, an sms could have prevented anyone being callout to assist you.

Plb is a very black and white measure for the UK, that I personally think is better suited to remote overseas locations and sailing etc..

In reply to AlanLittle:


Both trackers and plb's throw up all sorts of questions about when you would use them and how others should respond. They are both very blunt instruments indeed. I am particularly interested in this at the moment since I run D of E groups and it looks like trackers, possibly with an emergency "panic button" might be imposed on me. I could always resign in protest I suppose.......

In reply to Robert Durran:

I‘ve never even seen one, but from the descriptions it looks like one could use an Inreach to say you‘re overdue but ok & so prevent unnecessary callouts.

In reply to geordiepie:

I think it's because UKC forums are full of dicks

Alternatively, it's full of people that can give advice and take the piss in equal measure...

In reply to summo:

got some time to kill?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=272218

from a few years ago

In reply to Robert Durran:


It's moving that way.
The Army has now insisted on all teams using the exTrac system which pushes a location every 10mins via Iridium and also has a emergency communication button for the annual Ten Tors event on Dartmoor.

In reply to AlanLittle:


Exactly. I've used a friends InReach in Alaska, or actually the new Garmin version as Garmin bought InReach. Text messages worked well, though typing it is reminiscent of a 90's mobile phone, the weather forecast that comes with the subscription is basic but was good enough to make the right decision to bundle up camp and head off down the mountain in a hurry at one point. I also know of a case where friends used one to call in help to evacuate a seriously injured member of the team in a remote bit of Canada. Argueable whether you'd want one for the UK, but personal choice..

In reply to summo:

They have there place, should the delay in getting to a position to instigate a 999 voice/txt call versus the PLB activation, might jeopardize the causalities chance of survival. This assumes the PLB activation will be picked up relatively swiftly, which is not a given.

In the UK and should the size/competence of the party allow, should I be faced with that situation, I would pull the pin, but also send someone to make that voice call as well.

Obviously they should only be triggered where there is grave and imminent danger (official designation is to; life, limb, or sight).

I agree a PLB activation provides the emergency rescue services with very little 'to go on', as in what's happening, to allow a more tailored/planned response.

I have one but principally for sea-kayaking, but it only very occasionally gets taken on the hill.

In reply to AlanLittle:


At about £400 per thingy and with ten or so D of E groups..............

In reply to summo:


I realised their place when I was on a solo mission skiing a couloir on the west side of Aonach Beag, which spits you out at the very top of Glen Nevis. Very quickly one goes from a location that has 5 bars of 4G, to no phone signal and a very, very remote location.

Now, one could take the argument that it's a matter of choice to end up in such a place alone. Equally, there is technology around that should there be a game-changing issue (such as a broken leg), a beacon would result in assistance quickly, rather than at best a prolonged search to find a very cold person with a serious medical problem (yes I do carry bivvi shelter / warm kit etc but we all know how cold it gets very quickly in Scotland in winter!).

I think it makes sense to carry one, especially one like the very small one I recommended above, but I wouldn't dream of either claiming it is irresponsible to not do so, or removing self-reliance if one does carry it.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

I fully agree, and i would liken sea kayaking to sailing. Things going wrong in water is generally more serious.

I guess a competent mountaineer taking a plb into a remote glen, which they know is a phones black spot whilst they attempt some thin new ice route.... is not the same as a novice taking one for a walk up a hill where they can see the nearest town the whole time. As I said horses for courses.

In reply to James Jackson:

As I said above horses for courses. I just worry it's another escalation.

In reply to Fraser:


Yep it's a grand little bit of kit. The weight saving in rescue kit now is amazing. My beacon, bivvi shelter, warm clothing and emergency food take up hardly any room in my kit these days. Gone are the big orange plastic bivi bags and other such large items of the past!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I wasn't talking about your DofE groups, just general personal use e.g. the scenarios I described where I thought there was a real risk of unnecessary emergency calls from people who were expecting me.

In reply to summo:


Agreed - this is true of any bit of kit (including a mobile phone) though. There is absolutely no trade for experience, and there will always be people who misuse kit.

I suppose in the past, when those of us in our 30s were learning the ropes, we didn't have phones in the hills either. We learnt how to deal with issues, rather than 'pull the pin'. That said, there are many many people learning now who don't feel the need to do so either - it's all about appropriate education of what can be handled with experience and knowledge, and what requires the cavalry.

In reply to James Jackson:

But no retailer of the beacon is going to tell a potential buyer they'd be better off spending their money on a course learning to navigate. It comes down to education, I suspect most people who ring for help when they could have fixed their own problem, aren't the people who attend mountain lectures etc..

In reply to Robert Durran:


You could, but that would be a bit of a black/white response. Whereas, in reality, a more nuanced approach is usually preferable.

Trackers and phones can make expedition management and assessment much easier, since you have a better idea where groups are, and therefore can plan to meet your groups more efficiently, rather than sitting around idly waiting for them to unlose themselves. The logs are also useful as an 'after action' review, to help them learn where they went wrong.

We used GPS/GPRS trackers for a few years, until the tracking service got too expensive. We never had an 'emergency' triggered. Going back to old skool supervision has been a pain, since it involves the uncertainty of where they are, and how long they're going to be.

As for trackers/PLBs/SPOTs in the UK, I guess it depends on circumstances. It's pretty hard to find anywhere in the UK that is that remote from civilisation. But mobile network coverage isn't universal, and you might choose to carry an emergency device. Whether that's an active trigger device like a PLB, or a passive trigger like SPOT, is another choice.

It's worth checking on the coverage of the SPOT satellite network, especially nearer the poles, since both GPS and the data satellites suffer terrain obscuration problems. It's possible that your SPOT or equivalent can see neither GPS nor signalling satellites, so would be unable to send an alert.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

There was a significant discussion on here about this a few years back. The debate divided with on one side, folk who thought (and still think) that if you get yourself into a situation then you should either be confident that you can get yourself out of it, or accept the risk involved, or just not do that until you feel sufficiently competent; and those who thought that a PLB provided an element of last resort help and who were prepared to suffer the cost, the weight and the opprobium of there fellow hillgoers should they ever have to use the damn thing.

Opinion is still divided, despite the legality of PLBs. However, if I were you I'd have a damn good think about where you're going, what you intend to do there, what hazards you might encounter, what you can do about them and what additional equipment you might need to deal with them, what level of risk you're prepared to accept and then, and only then, think about getting a PLB. Technology is no substitute for competence.

T.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

I have a McMurdo Fast find. Had it for a few years and it sits in my PFD when kayaking every time I go out. I believe they are now licensed for use on land. Battery still could and replaceable. Self test every month.

This is a very standard bit of kit for a sea kayaker (together with flares and vhf). If I tried telling other kayakers that they should be more self reliant and not carry this type of safety kit, I think most would think I was an idiot.

cheers
mark

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

Likewise, I carry a McMurdo Fast Find when solo hill walking. I have had it since just after they became legal for use on land. It is easy to walk for 6 hours without seeing anyone in the Western Lake District and mobile coverage is poor. It also gives my wife reassurance that I can call for help in a life threatening emergency.

In reply to James Jackson:

Another vote for that one. I use it in the hills [climbing ski mountaineering walking] and on the 'watter' when single handing my small yacht on the coast.

Never had to use it [yet] fingers crossed.

In reply to AlanLittle:

That’s how it’s become for me - an extra couple of hundred grams I just shrug at. The ongoing cost irks me, but then it’s cheaper than being off work for months on end because I was on death’s door when someone stumbled across my bivvy bag. Otherwise there’s no inconvenience to having one.

On those “I might as well take it days” I’d still expect to get myself out of the same trouble as I did before I brought one. However the times I’d have rang 999 [but had no signal to do so] I’d have another option. The biggest benefit on those days is to let someone know you’re okay - even when you’re off the hill/Crag there’s plenty of spots in Scotland that you have to drive a fair way from the carpark before your phone wakes up & it seems to make my family happy. The tracking function also lets people know you’re okay, but then again it’s a double edged sword having your parents google every alpine top, glacier, arête, etc that you venture over... The biggy for me [and what really has me paying the subs] remains the peace of mind my family and friends seem to gain though...

The being responsible argument goes beyond your family not having to wait a month for someone to trip over you following a thaw too: if MRT know where to look they can spend less time putting others at risk looking for you / your corpse - but then again prevention is better than cure and it’s not an excuse to put yourself in harms way!

In reply to captain paranoia:

GPS coverage is a good point to consider, especially in a gulley or something steep and prolonged or just in really pants weather. My spot is by no means 100% for sending messages - thankfully never tried to send an emergency one. It’s still another useful tool in the arsenal, but exactly that and nothing more.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

Have used a McMurdo Fast Find for last 3 years. Good size/weight, and battery life of about 6 years. Used all over the world. Don't even notice it in your pack.

A lot of people on here have had some pretty polarized and abusive opinions about them for years, back before they were legalized here in the UK. Obviously these are not for those people. People have the same kind of response about whether or not a helmet is a good idea, or an avalanche transceiver... Strange bunch

Meanwhile one of these devices nearly saved a regular contributor to these forums a little while back. Unfortunately he died of his injuries anyway. But at least his friends and family were able to respond, and do everything in their power to try to save him. And like having an avalanche transceiver to hand, that must give those surviving hearts some _tiny_ consolation.

In reply to toad:

No, but I was considering getting a Himalayan Squid Hound. Very good in a rescue situation, but difficult to feed at altitude, as they are very fussy eaters and tend to turn their noses up at anything that isn't squid based nutrition.

I usually borrow a pony form a mate of mine: Seumas Shanks.

In reply to toad:




The predictions of MRTs being flooded with callouts from unnecessary PLB activations appear not to have happened (yet).

In reply to Tam O'Bam:


A dog named Spot?

In reply to Tam O'Bam:
Solo walking in the UK hills? Wtf do you think can happen?

In reply to robhorton:

Probably because they only work once.... 200 quid a go.....

Cheers
Mark

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

I've got an ACR ResQLink+
I only use it for sea kayaking, lives permanently in my PFD. It's the same kind that we use in the RNLI so figured it would be good. Never really considered taking it into the hills in the UK, but would probably take it with me on an expedition somewhere remote.

As has been mentioned, they're not necessarily a quick way of summoning help, it can sometimes take a while to get a fix from enough satellites, as much as a few hours I think.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

I have an InReach, I got because recently I've been getting into doing long solo backpacking trips mainly in northern Scandinavia and family members had started to nag.
I looked at the marine type PLB's but they will only send a SOS if it has a GPS it will also send your position but you can't send any details. Also I believe you have to send them off to be reset once used.
I looked at SPOT type devices and read far more stories of these failing than any of the other types. As well as the SOS button you can also send preset text messages with these but you can't receive texts. These were cheaper and lighter than the InReach but the subscription was more expensive and not as flexible.
With the InReach you can send and receive text and get weather forecasts, you can write messages on your smartphone and send them via a Bluetooth connection. You can suspend your subscription for the months you're not using it, which saves a bit. I think you can also use it as a fairly basic GPS - I've not tried as I have a better separate device.
Someone up-thread said that a PLB will always get through where the others might not, they all use the same technology, if different satellites so I can't see this being correct.
There's also been mention of satellite coverage being poor in high latitudes, I've not been to the polar regions but its always worked for me in Lapland and Scotland.
With the InReach, the default setting is to record your position every ten minutes - I think - and it's 10 cents per recording this also uses up battery power, I've changed this to record every two hours.
Set like this and sending a text every other day the battery will last about seven days, I use a small solar panel to recharge it whenever the sun shines. Slightly easier in the land of the midnight sun.

In reply to OwenM:

The 'Spot' type devices are not dedicated emergency devices, so a call for help get's routed through the commercial call-centre first and is another middle-man further away. More significantly maybe, a PLB is not solely a GPS device - it transmits a GPS location via satellite, but also transmits a radio signal of its own that rescuers can use to zero in on its position directly once they get within range.

In reply to deepsoup:


The signal from all of them is relayed from the satellite back down to Earth, in all cases it's somewhere in the US, it's then passed on the whichever country you're in. Spot and InReach use their own commercial setup, PLB's use the US Coast Guards. Not really any difference.
Yes, PLB's can be DF'ed if the helicopter is fitted out for it.

In reply to OwenM:

Different satellites is exactly the issue. Commercial operators do not have access to the Cospas-Sarsat system which uses a mixture of polar (low earth) and geostationary orbits to achieve global coverage. It is about as good as you can get.

A commercial operator will use a commercial network, and these may not give such good coverage. SPOT, for example uses the Globalstar system with an inclination of 52 degrees, giving very poor coverage in polar regions, or northern latitudes with an obstructed sky to the south. Inreach uses irridium, which are are at pretty much polar orbits so will perform much better in high latitudes, but will still not give you as good coverage as Cospas-Sarsat.

Ultimately, with a 406Mhz beacon, you can be almost guaranteed to get a distress signal through. Commercial systems, are less certain, but some are definitely better than others.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

If you don't know the answer to your question, you've obviously been living under a rock for the whole of your life!! (Or maybe only taken the odd stroll down your local high street).

Don't really understand your need to troll. Is it because you feel inadequate and are attempting to validate yourself by deprecating others?

Knob.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

I think it's a reasonable question, though provocatively phrased. What do you think might befall you that makes a PLB necessary?

As I said in my response previously, it's worth having a think about where you're going and what you intend to do there, what risks you might be exposed to and what you can do before leaving to anticipate, prevent or ameliorate those risks, what additional hill skills you might need to acquire and other similar factors before spending money and pack weight on a PLB.

T.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

Thanks to all who have provided some excellent advice and comments.

Having read your posts, I think the best bet for me would be a PLB of the 406 hz type.

I am an experienced hill walker and a qualified map reading instructor, so navigation is not a problem for me. I do not have a GPS device, and my view is that there is not so much that can go wrong with a map and compass, which do not run out of power. (And yes, I know there are places where a compass is useless; I have experienced them. In these circumstances, it is important to keep track of exactly where you are and to have planned properly).

As I indicated in my initial post, a PLB is only “insurance”, and hopefully a waste of money.

I would comment that nowadays, it seems to be common advice to take a mobile phone when out on the hills, again as “insurance”. Having taken the step to use modern technology, I see little difference in GENERAL terms between having a mobile phone and a PLB to alert rescuers that you are in deep cack. There are many parts of the Highlands where there is no phone signal, hence my desire to have something more reliable than a mobile phone.

No one goes to the hills intending to become benighted, but the unexpected can, and does happen.

As several contributors have noted, it is also a comfort to loved ones to know that you do have a “last ditch” safety measure.

Thanks once again to all (well most ) contributors.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:
Yes, all fair comment, and I agree with you, but as I pointed out in my most recent post, the unexpected can always happen. All life is a risk!

One of the things you can do before leaving to ameliorate the risks is to pack a PLB!

Would you criticise a walker who has "had a think about where they are going and what they intend to do there", has taken all reasonable steps to anticipate, prevent or ameliorate the risks and has all the skills required, but has none the less been overcome by misfortune and contacts the emergency services by mobile phone?

As I think I have already said. this is for insurance, not an "Oh dear, I feel a wee bit tired, please come and pick me up" option!

Thanks for your comments though, a useful contribution to the debate.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

Mrs G and I do a lot of off-piste skiing, and so have always carried them then, but never really thought about them beyond that?

But it's actually a very good point and equally sensible question.

We recently bought watches with PLB's built into them, so have them on us all the time now, and don't even need to think about it.

However, it does make sneaking in a few beers when I'm supposed to be running errands, a lot more difficult

In reply to Tam O'Bam: I'm still interested to know what dreadful calamities await a well equipped hill walker in UK hills.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Flat batteries ?

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Simple slips, trips and falls, leading to an injury such as a broken leg. Are you going to walk out on it?

Did I really need to say that?

In reply to Tam O'Bam


Good grief. I hope you aren't going to trigger a PLB just because you get benighted.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:


The kind of calimity where the well equipped, highly experienced UKC hillwalker who chews nails and shits rivets, is unfortunate enough to find himself badly injured and unconcious due to a freak accident?

Carrying a bit of extra insurance in the bottom of your sac doesn't make you a knob, anymore than not carrying any, makes you a he man warrior sired by Zeus.

In reply to Goucho:

Your watch PLB (whilst falling under the strict definition of a PLB) will not transmit a GPS position as part of the distress message, and so is not a substitute for a dedicated unit. That said, some of the cospas-sarsat satellites will be able to give a rough location from doppler shift, and rescue teams can use the 121.5Mhz signal to actually find you. A watch has the undeniable advantage of always being there, but perhaps it is still worth your while thinking about what you want it to do!

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

OK. I'll bite. (If I REALLY have to explain it).

Despite having assessed all the risks, and taking extreme care at all times, the hill walker misses his footing and breaks his leg, in a remote location. If he/she has a mobile phone, presumably you would not argue with them using it to summon assistance? (Just as someone might phone for an ambulance if they stepped off a kerb on the high street and broke their leg - This actually happened to a friend of mine, who, having walked a long way on a high alpine route, stepped off a kerb while walking into Val D'Isere and broke their leg). Supposing there is no phone signal? What do they do then? That's where a PLB might just come in useful. (It does, after all, provide a GPS fix on their position). Otherwise, the hill walker has to rely on being reported overdue (which might be hours, or even days later). Mountain rescue then has to search the whole route of the hill walker's itinerary in order to locate them, wasting their time and potentially reducing the casualty's chances of survival/recovery outcome.

Or perhaps it is more reasonable to expect the casualty to splint their broken leg themselves and walk out?

As an aside, I did slip several years ago whilst walking in the hills and dislocated my shoulder. (Those of you who have done this will know that it's "a wee bit sore"). I walked out myself and did NOT call for assistance getting off the hill (although I did request an ambulance to meet me when I got to the road). In fact I had difficulty persuading the ambulance call handler, that I did NOT require a helicopter rescue. This does NOT make me a "hero", but it does, I would hope, make me self-reliant.

A broken leg on the high street, is not a calamity; a broken leg in a remote location, where there is no means of telling anyone, is potentially life threatening.

So you're presumably now going to tell me that I should never go alone to the hills? And yet many people do this, for whatever personal reasons. Do you disapprove of them all?

As I have REPEATEDLY said, a PLB is "INSURANCE", a last option, only to be used when ALL ELSE fails, in the UNLIKELY event that a "dreadful calamity" does occur. I don't know why this concept seems to be so hard to grasp. Is your house insured? And yet I assume you don't leave a candle burning in a saucer full of petrol next to your sitting-room curtains when you go out? Or perhaps a couple of batteries in a bagful of steel wool, beside your meths store underneath the stairs?

I can't BELIEVE I replied to you!

IF you're having a laugh, well done, you got me!! (So difficult to know on this medium).

And if you are, I hope my response gives you a chuckle!!

Cheers.

In reply to MarkJH:


Ours are duel frequently (406 MHz and 121.5 MHz) with built-in GPS transmission and operate on the COSPAS - SARSAT Network.

It's all a bit rocket science to me, but they are apparently amongst the best you can currently buy.

In reply to Dave the Rave:

My Aunt had a dog called spot, but her navigation skills were poor. She kept losing her way and getting herself up the duff from "Buff", the working sheep dog at the farm down the road from my Aunties. He was a great guy, and brilliant with sheep, but he knew nothing about family planning.

In reply to Goucho:


Happy to be corrected, but I thought that the Breitling ones were the only watches that currently had that feature, and they don't have a GPS receiver as part of the PLB function (as far as I know). Quite frankly, it's an astonishing technical achievement to fit a 5W transmitter with enough power for 24hrs of transmission into something that you can wear on your wrist, so the omission is understandable. I guess if you have one though, you may know better...

In reply to MarkJH:


They are Breitlings, but I could be confused regarding GPS. They have two retractable antennas which I might have mistaken as GPS - I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to technology

What is also good about them, is that they are still good down to -20, and also great from a maritime perspective - I've fallen off the boat on more than one occasion!

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

I think you are partly getting sarcastic replies due to a long previous thread.

However, it does strike me as a bit over the top to have all this high tech kit in the UK. Yes some catastrophe might happen when no one is with you and no one knows where you went but it is really pretty unlikely when just walking in the UK. Then the PLB might be the difference between being found or not, and it might result in you being found before you die anyway, but it might it might well not. I suspect most people are happy taking the very small risk and find the idea that this sort of stuff is getting to be expected detracts from the idea of being alone and simply walking.

In reply to Goucho:

Is your surname Bond?

In reply to AlanLittle:

If I was going to the sort of places Steve House climbs I would either take a sat phone or PLB. For the kind of things I get up to in the UK and Europe it just seems like overkill.

In reply to Goucho:


It wouldn't be far off. Apparently a 406 signal without a GPS position encoded can still be located to within a couple of km which can then refined by a search team, but that isn't quite the same as having the proverbial pin in the map.


They look incredible, but I suspect that your watch is worth considerably more than my boat; I would find it a little hard to justify!

In reply to MarkJH:

406MHz has a wavelength around .7m, so in theory it should be possible to do better than a couple of km. You would need fairly widely dispersed receivers and some interesting signal processing to pull it off mind.

In reply to MG:
Yes, I agree.

For MANY years, I have walked alone (and with others - yes, I DO have friends) in the hills, with neither mobile phone nor any other electronic gadget, and have not (yet) been benighted.

But I AM getting older.........

In reply to davidbeynon:


I think that the protocol is such that the doppler shift profile from a single moving satellite on a single pass gives range and bearing rather than relying on multiple receivers. I don't know if this gets refined on subsequent passes.

In reply to MarkJH:


When Mrs G is doing her ski guiding in the alps, she carries an additional PLB with GPS - a Mcmurdo I think - which she also provides for each of her clients, the avalanche factor being the biggest concern.


They are a bit pricey

In reply to davidbeynon:


I took mine, and my vhf to pabbay and mingulay. We also had a large vhf and a satellite phone.

Cheers
Mark

In reply to MG:


Yes, this is what makes me uneasy. I don't think we are there yet, but it could well become, like phones, the expected norm.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Away from the OP's request and addressing the wider issue, I suspect that as society becomes more risk-averse then it's inevitable that PLBs will become part of the certificated group leader's expected kit. Whether that filters down to, say, clubs where individuals have come together of their own volition to participate in an activity and a degree of competence is expected is a moot point; but pressure for it will arise over the medium-term. Whether you or I choose to carry one is up to us; but as awareness rises, individuals may find themselves under pressure from their loved ones to take one as they head off to Fisherfield, the Flow Country or Snowdon.

The flip side of having rights is that we have responsibilities. For me, the flip side of having the right of free access to all these glorious miles of mountain and moorland is that we have a responsibility to be self-reliant whilst we explore them and that means accepting, even embracing, the risks that go with free access to the less wandered paths and peaks; and because of that, I'm not a fan of PLBs. There should, for the continued health of the part of our being that loves wilderness, be places that remain wild and into which entry is only granted if one has left some things behind.

Which is the thing and the whole of the thing for me. PLBs are a sign that the wilder places are less wild than once they were; and, for all that it's the price of progress and for all that it may mean some people can sleep a litle easier in their beds, that's a loss I mourn.

T.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Let's all stop carrying compasses too. They were invented once and let us move with more surety around wild areas. Inventions like these that stop self-reliance should be banned.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Yes, I understand and respect your views, and actually probably agree with them, but while I accept the small risk of losing all, a rescue might avoid some poor sod having to recover one's liquifying and unpleasant remains. (Unless, of course, one is particularly cunning and can find somewhere where one's remains are never found, or at least not until the bones are nice and clean and white)!

And, I'm afraid, with the advent of mobile phones, (and hand held GPS systems, which I do not use or possess) the Rubicon has already been crossed.

I wouldn't criticise anyone for using a GPS, but it's not for me.

Just a thought.

At the end of the discussion, it's a personal decision.

In reply to James Jackson:

Maps? Pfwhaff!!

In reply to James Jackson:

I'm just going to try to navigate my way to bed.

I wonder what dangers are lurking there..........

In reply to James Jackson:


How do compasses result in less self-reliance? The opposite, surely.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:


Just so, and here's hoping that you never have cause to use your new purchase.

T.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:
So you'd rather spend £200+ on facilitating the ability to be rescued but refuse to pay £100 on a piece of kit that will significantly avoid the possibility of getting lost? Interesting set of priorities.

And I re-iterate my question - how many life threatening accidents befall competent hill walkers in the British hills, which is what your OP referred to? (So all this talk of ski touring, MOB and Papua New Guinea is just irrelevant.) Anecdotally, off the top of my head, with a large group of friends and family in various clubs, groups and families, walking many thousands of miles in the British hills over 55+ years, (yep; my earliest memories are walking in the Brecon Beacons) how many accidents can I recall where a PLB would have been life saving? Er; genuinely, not one.

So what's the objection? Because ever increasing use of technology raises the barrier to participation, it's an additional expense, it is intrinsically unreliable unless it is maintained and checked, and it normalises their use so becomes 'essential'.

Tilman was asked how to organise an expedition, and he said 'Put your boots on and go!' Well I don't necessarily concur with that in an expedition context but I'm going to retain that simplicity and freedom in the UK hills for myself. If you want to play at being soldiers or James Bond with all the latest kit, that's fine, it's your money and time, but it truly isn't necessary. Which is my response to the OP.

In reply to MG:


Compasses and sunstones are probably OK if you mine your own calcite or smelt your own iron to make them. The first stage of any walk is always to find some ore.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:



Anecdotally, off the top of my head, with a large group of friends and family in various clubs, groups and families, walking many thousands of miles in the British hills over 55+ years, (yep; my earliest memories are walking in the Brecon Beacons) how many accidents can I recall where a PLB would have been life saving? Er; genuinely, not one.

Your experience is different from mine. I cannot say the same.

In reply to davidbeynon:


I keep an ore stock at home. In a special plastic oil-filled case - to stop it going off and keep the magic in.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

What a bizarre thread.

Here’s my view on PLB’s. No piece of technology should be a replacement for competent hill skills and a sense of self reliance when heading out. But, of course, that’s not what the OP was about, it was about utilising a PLB as an option of ‘last resort’. As such, it’s a great resource to carry, even in the UK hills, when you find yourself in a situation where self reliance is no longer enough and a rescue is required.

From a rescue team perspective, I’ve seen the PLB being the difference between taking a casualty off the hill conscious, when otherwise the initial outcome would have been very different. I also know of many situations where the outcomes could have been different, less protracted for MRT if a PLB was utilised- that’s just a fact.

To be clear, I’m not saying that to NOT carry a PLB is somehow irresponsible etc but I would certainly encourage people to consider it a good investment for venturing into remote locations in the UK.

In reply to gavmac:
Thank you! At last someone has understood where I'm coming from!! (Well, actually, quite a lot of you have, but gavmac has put it very clearly and succinctly).

And in reply to Rob Exile Ward, why spend £100.00 on a GPS, when I know how to use a map and compass? I have never been lost in the hills.

And the device I'm looking at doesn't cost "£200.00 +" anyway.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:


Like all things, it horses for courses. I've only ever used my GPS in anger once, and that was when on a multi-day ski tour, caught in dodgy snow conditions in an unexpected whiteout, above a series of cliff bands on the Cairngorm Plateau. I was double-checking my position in order to navigate back (decided to turn around as conditions were so atrocious) on a compass bearing. While I was confident I knew where I was, as I had the GPS I turned it on to get a fix on my current grid. I was exactly where I thought I was, but in that particular set of circumstances the extra reassurance I wasn't going to ski off a cliff was rather nice.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:


But by the same logic you could say, "why spend £??? on a PLB when I know how to walk? I've never broken a leg in the hills."

In reply to Robert Durran:

Of course not. Perhaps "benighted" was the wrong word. I suppose it depends on the definition of the word.

The only time I would ever trigger a PLB would be if my life was in danger.

In reply to James Jackson:


I see a clear difference between a compass and GPS etc. My own well defined line between self reliance and "cheating" is that I only use what I am carrying on my person and what is in the naural world around me - I find this a perfectly logical and aesthetic distinction. So I carry a map and compass and use the earth's magnetic field. I also, of course, use natural sunlight and light from a headtorch I carry with me to see where I am going. But anything which uses man made satellites or phone masts is out - so that means I consider GPS, mobile phone, satellite phone, PLB etc as "cheating". I admit I do "cheat"; after holding out for quite a number of years I usually carry a mobile phone, but I do love the fact that a lot of the time in the hills I don't get a signal - long may that remain so. But I hate the idea of GPS with all those satellites and can't see myself getting a PLB or suchlike any time soon.

In reply to Robert Durran:

With respect, a bit of a specious argument. One is for finding out where you are (which I don't need, because I know where I am anyway with my map and compass), the other is for summoning assistance when all else fails (which I hope never to need, because I plan properly, know my limits, have the right kit and skills, etc., etc., etc....).

In reply to Tam O'Bam:


But shit happens. You lose compass or map blows away. Just like you might trip and break a leg.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

'And the device I'm looking at doesn't cost "£200.00 +" anyway.'

I think that's the crux of this whole thread - you want it! Go shopping then, no skin off my nose.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Likewise. A recent, err, unplanned overnight break, in the alps when out of phone range was in many ways more satisfying knowing that there was simply no way of getting in touch with others - we were on our own. (It was **** cold though!).

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

No, that's not the crux of the thread.

Tam came on looking for advice on which PLB to purchase- some people (most), gave helpful suggestions. He wasn't asking for anyone's opinion on the legitimacy of a PLB, although he did helpful give his reasons for purchasing. Your opening response was just pointless, to put it politely.

In reply to gavmac:

Whatever.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
As anyone venturing out to do more hazardous things a Scottish Walker is at risk of avalanches to think of a quick example. Ok so if it kills you or you’re buried then you ain’t asking for help (with a tracking function people will know where to look though if you don’t come home). A simple broken ankle from slipping on a rock is a common mountain rescue call out. If Tam O’Bam is intending on going to more remote places then there could easily be no signal and no-one pass by - that would be a fair use of a PLB I’d say.

People have been missing for days in the UK for various reasons with family, friends and SAR out looking for them in the last year. I doubt MRT would encourage their use for fear of the unwitting and ill-prepared using PLBs like uber, however a tracker or PLB could have helped. Could NOT would being the operative word. It doesn’t seem like the OP thought this was a bomb proof plan in any way, but just another tool to help if needed when out as well prepared as any other man/woman. - admittedly the UK is a low risk environment, but if you have one for other activities it would seem reasonable to have it out with you ...the subs would be a waste if not.

It’s interesting that there’s basically two opinions here: 1) can’t hurt & why is it anyone else’s business if you choose to have one? and 2) why the F@*# do you want that? In my day we... [insert some macismo] - I’m confused by the second, I must admit: surely no-one cares if the OP buys one of these even if they deem it a waste of money?

Disclosure - I am biased though as I have a gps tracker/SOS device originally brought for ski-touring and alping. I use it pretty often in the UK, because “why not?” - after all I pay for it monthly.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

I don't think it's really about society becoming more risk averse, more that technological advances allow the risk to be reduced.

I would still go into the hills if there were no rescue services. But if I do have a mishap I would prefer to be rescued if possible. The fairly small cost of a taking a mobile phone (given most people have one anyway) seems a reasonable price to pay for a fairly significant increase in the chances getting rescued if necessary. Before mobile phones were available though there just wasn't that option. I think the principle is the same with a PLB although the cost and benefit will be different.

I don't have a PLB but will probably get one for sea kayaking at some point, in which case I may as well take it in the hills as well.

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

I think the best solution is to buy one of these locater beacon things and then furiously deny buying it or owning one. Just hide it in the bottom of your bag.

In reply to NeilBoyd:

Ahh! The best solution yet! Of course I'm NOT going to get one of these. I'm really only asking to see what sort of a shit storm I can whistle up.

See? I've started already!!

In reply to Tam O'Bam:

After a lot of thought I have purchased a RescueME PLB1 Ocean Signal for sea kayaking. Now I have it I will be taking it on solo Scottish winter trips. It is light, compact, robust, has a seven year battery and needs no subscription although it does need (free) registration. It is the type being given to commercial sea fishermen in the south West.
David Hillebrandt.