UKC

Hello 

I was just wondering how many screw gates people carry on a trad multi pitch route? After recently doing a self rescue course i find myself carrying 8!

• 3 x HMS (1 for master point and 1 for belaying and 1 spare for self rescue things)
• 6 x small for belays (3 will be at the belay and 3 i'll need when i build the next one)

Assuming the following criteria how many would you carry?

• You are the main rack provider (the follower will just have personal) 
• It's a multi pitch you have never climbed and have limited beta on.
• There are no bolts
• Its a remote location so any problems you'll have to sort out yourself.

I know you can use snap gates in certain circumstances but you still have to have a dedicated set of gates for certain jobs right?  

Two. But sometimes just one.

I take 3 spare (belay plate has number 4).

1 hms for a couple of clove hitches.

2 smaller ones for either part of belay or using with guide plate for guide mode.

Nothing wrong with carrying a couple more but snapgates will often suffice and you can always oppose a couple if needed. I will carry a few more when I’m working.

None 

I usually have 5 screwgates, one hms, and one belay device specific screwgate, oh and one with a Prussik loop permanently on my harness.

I've found it's not always practical/possible to have 3 bits of gear at a stance, but if I do manage 6 bits of gear over 2 stances I'd just use a quickdraw for 1 bit of gear. Probably not best practice, but I've not died yet!

Not even one on the belay plate?

One for belay plate, one on harness belay loop for quick belaying, and if I'm using a tether I'll have one on that too. So either 2 or 3.

so it seems like the general consensus is people build their belay anchors out of snap gates ?  

There's only really two main reasons to use a screwgate. One is when the krab has a good chance of being nudged or having a rope accidentally clip itself, the other is when there is no redundancy. So when belaying, any knots clipped to my belay loop are into screwgates, as they can easily become disoriented or pushed against by other kit. Any gear that is part of a multi-piece belay will be into snaplinks, as none will be disturbed and none is individually critical.

I presume we're talking about a situation where you are the only leader, ie you're not swinging leads?  In that case, I'd generally carry more than most here are suggesting - I would have a 240cm sling and four screwgates for each belay. 

That means at each end of the pitch I have three screwgates for the three runners, the big sling to equalise fast, and one to attach myself to the sling.  My second is meanwhile carrying the other big sling and four gates.

Yes you can use a quickdraw in place of a screwgate, and if it's within reach and you can keep an eye on it then it doesn't significantly compromise safety.  But that means you're now a quickdraw down for the next pitch.  A quickdraw and a screwgate weigh roughly the same, so should I have brought another screwgate or another quickdraw..?  I'd rather have brought the best bit of kit for the job.

You can of course take a quickdraw apart to get two snapgates out of it, but that's just faff and the potential for dropping stuff.  And you could replace some of the screwgates in my usual set-up with individual snapgates for a bit of weight saving, but let's be honest - does a few grams really matter that much?

yes i am the sole leader

nice so i am not alone with my many many screw gates,

Its not really about weight it's more about bulk/efficiency on the harness 

For some reason I keep losing screwgates so while I aspire to 4 I often only have one. 

This assumes I use a belay of three points extended with ropes and one for my tie in and my companion carries similar so we can swing leads continuously. 

Crappy rock, complex or serious routes or routes requiring threads or spikes a few more might be useful and in winter I carry more screwgates but fewer QDs.

Reality is I usually salvage wiregates from my QDs to set up belays and where appropriate use two back-back.

pretty sure I have 4 - one for belay device, spare for using reverso in guide mode, one for clipping to the anchor (I'm often leading all pitches so don't like tying into the belay), and a spare for anything I might need if the shit hits the fan. 

I remember getting rescue training and carrying an enormous amount of extra gear for every eventuality that was 'bound' to happen. I have slowly whittled it down to what I feel comfortable with.

I'd say stick with what you're doing, the extra weight is negligible. And if you seek out the really lightweight stuff you may find a weight saving!

Sometimes using a quickdraw as part of a belay is helpful (eg. lowers angles between placements, easier to reach), but as mentioned above, it then means one (or more) that aren't available for use on the next pitch. When using snap gates for a belay, more time / faff is required to consider the orientation of gates, potential for knocking on anything. Depending on what ropes you're using clove hitches are more awkward to tie on a small snap gate, whereas they almost always very easily go on a screw gate, and if it's a HMS then 2 or 3 may fit on without cross-loading.

Consider using a Bandolier, clip screw gates to that. Makes them super accessible and clears up space on the harness.

Hope that's helpful 

Agree with you. 1 for belay plate and an optional 1which  I some times carry. 

Some of the numbers being quoted on this topic are ridiculous .

For a multi pitch trad day in the mountains I'd take 1 on my stich plate and one other. I'd expect my partner to have one or two max.

Personal climbing:

x 1 HMS for belay plate

x 1 HMS with room for 2 clove hitches

x 2 small D-shaped for building belay

Maybe another HMS plus 2 D-shaped if looking after 2 others

I’m never the sole leader. I’m always the soul leader though...

...I know how to get down. 

I take 4 screw gates, including the one for my belay plate. So three spare, each with slings on them of varying length. 

Two for guide mode(could probably just use one with a snap gate) and two for the belay (or for runners) 

I find after I've climbed Norwegian ice I carry more screwgates than I used to: I have two HMS biners for setting up belays (these are handy to hang ice tools off too), another for the belay device and a couple of screwgates for my long slings (400 and 240 cm respectively) which may or may not make it onto my rack. So somewhere between three and five depending on scenario and location.

The screwgates make me feel safer with lots of abseils as I can clip the prussik to a leg loop without worrying it'll unclip.

One for the belay device and then three more for the belay itself - two small ones for the anchors and an HMS for a direct belay in guide mode  (or for an anchor if belaying off the harness). If there need to be more anchor points than there are screwgates available, a snapgate or a quickdraw will do (ideally doubled up).

This is for personal climbing with a partner who has their own stuff. Otherwise you’re adding at least 3 more as you say but you’re probably not carrying them yourself. Also in that case you’re probably doing all the leading, so would want another one to secure yourself to a master point as you wouldn’t want to be faffing around with tying yourself into the anchors with the ropes.

Depending on the route, I might have another screwgate on the back of the harness to clip in approach shoes or a packable windproof. That provides an extra ‘just in case’.

Lets think,

1x on my cows tail

2x one on each prussik (I keep a second in case I have to accend a rope)

2x with long slings for building a belay if using trees etc.

1x HMS for the belay plate

1x HMS for clove hitching to for a belay

So that's 5 smaller ones and 2 x HMS

Although if I was building a second belay I'd take a few more long slings and spare snap gates

And I might even have one or two spare screwgates hanging around (e.g. on a spare belay plate)

Ten. Two for belay devices. 4 at bottom stance anochors and 4 at stance above anchors.

The weight difference between screwgate and clippergate is negligible so why no have your anchors fully screwgated?

About 6 including the one on my belay plate and one which might be carrying my trainers or light waterproof in a small stuffsack. On a big multiplitch with a long walk off I'd rather make sure essential bits of kit don't come adrift 

8. 

1 on belay plate

3 small for anchors

1 big boa for clove-hitches/master-point

2 on 120cm slings and 1 on 240cm sling over shoulders. 

If I was leading all pitches I'd maybe have a small one on a Kong Slyd and I'd probably end up being slightly short for anchors. That's fine though because a clove-hitch onto a snapgate is fine and you can always oppose 2 to be safe. 

Weird how snapgates seem to be fine for winter climbing but in the summer everyone insists on screwgates. 

39

I use dmm phantoms on both ends of my quickdraws - a rope is far more likely to get unclipped from a 'draw than from a well built belay. But obviously I use them there too, and for cams, and for my nut key because it would be a right tragedy if I dropped that. 

Can't quite remember (stopped climbing 12 years ago), but I think 2 or 3. One for main belay, one for belay plate, and usually one spare for safety.

Usually 2, including the one for the belay device, but  sometimes 3 for convenience.

Al

1 on each sling (so say 3).

1 with the belay device.

1 with prussiks on it.

Couple of spares for belays.

So usually between 5 and 7 I think.

Normally two. One HMS krab for my harness (which doesn't have a belay loop); and one for the belay device. If I was expecting to use a magic plate I'd take a third.

Sorting out problems for yourself, and successfully improvising using whatever gear you have with you, is the whole point of climbing. There are of course bare minimums but, if you took everything which might ever conceivably be necessary, you'd never get off the ground.

2 for my belay device - I almost always have it in guide mode to take pictures.

1 boa as it'll take multiple clove hitches more easily when anchors are out of reach.

1 spare for self rescue, usually has a micro traxion and prussic attached. Lately I've been using a Revolver for this.

Just looked at your logbook and you tend to climb multi pitch bolted routes. If I was climbing those routes I'd have one screw gate on my belay plate and one big 'boa' style screw gate for the belay (if I had a sling over my shoulder that would have a screw gate too).

As you can see with all the varying answers there's no right or wrong way, you just need to climb a few hundred routes and find what you prefer  

Also never seen so many dislikes to reasonable answers in one thread lol. Just because people rack up differently haha. 

What is the logic of having screwgates on slings but not on, say, cams?

For me it's because if youre putting a sling round a biggish tree or boulder you could potentially be causing 'three way loading (or whatever its called)' at the karibiner.

I think the op is really trying to find the safest way of doing things and what's much more important than loads of screw gates is knowing what to do when things don't run smoothly. 

How to use a quick draw to double back a couple of crabs.

How to build a belay and tie back to the harness with no caribiners at all.

How to belay with no belay plate. 

Learning these (and a million other things) or much more important than climbing routes with 10 screw gates on your harness.

Edit:this wasn't aimed at you Rob, just a reply to the thread in general  

I wonder what grade is that the low carrying screwgate climbers ie 1 to 3, opposso to the higher screwgate carrying climbers is.

I would suspect the people who carry less screwgates climb at higher grades. I know from my own progression that my rack has slimmed down considerably.

Also 240cm slings, why?

I'm surprised at the number of people (like me) who've been given dislikes for saying they use 2 or 3 screwgates. In all the time I climbed (40 years) that was common practice among all the climbers I knew. It worked; was safe.

Because it's an incredibly quick way to roughly equalise three anchors.

Basically one, just the HMS. If there were others on the rack I dragged out of my bag (usually there would be one or two clipped to a sling or whatever) then fine, they'd come for the ride but if there weren't I wouldn't go looking for them.

If you feel you need 8 then 8 is the right number for you, we all choose the level of risk we're willing to accept.

jk

I can live with that lol

I think the logic is probably that a sling is more likely going to be going straight to me in a belay situation, while with a cam there's always going to be a sling or rope in-between it and me. I guess I could use snap gates but there's not much difference in weight and I have screwgates which I may as well use. I find on multi-pitch routes (particularly when leading all the pitches) if I didn't take spares I'd find, like slings, they were sometimes occupied in the previous belay.  

Assuming the need to equalise three points and that one can't use the rope, I find it much less faff than setting up two 120cm slings in series (and it uses one gate fewer as well).  I rack most of my slings twisted up on the back of my harness so it doesn't really take more space than a 120cm either.

(Dislike is not mine btw)

Why couldn't one use the rope (unless it had run out)? I can't think when I last used a sling to attach myself to an anchor; the rope is so much easier to adjust using clove hitches.

I can remember quite a few times in the Alps, when we weren't using anything more than 150ft/45m ropes, when it did just about run out. Re. clove hitches: The weird thing is that I only got into that in my last decade of climbing. Before that I didn't trust them completely, it was always a great mess of figure-of-eights and round turns and two or more half-hitches. 

I carry several, partly to please partners as its really no extra trouble. However, as has been implied in other posts, simple snapgates are often OK as it is usually easier to predict the various forces that will come onto krabs in belay anchors (they will be under tension and held in one orientation unlike with runners) and it is attachments at harness level/belay where cross loading and gate opening by the rope are more likely.

I've not carried a 240cm sling for 25 years, and I've never missed having one.

I'm also pretty sure I can rig rig an anchor quicker using the rope than a 240 sling.

My general point was about the extra stuff people carry that really is not necessary and the grade they climb.

Bit of a faff when it comes to threads though

Must admit my 6mm 240cm sling (on a snapper!) is my luxury trad multi pitch item. Especially useful if doing all the leading so as to keep rope faff to a minimum on changeovers and nice and quick to setup a master point type system for guide plate use.

Could I do without? Of course, but I do like it! I keep it twirled up nice and neat on the back of my harness.

I actually often just use the rope for spikes and sometimes threads, especially if short of slings - quick and easy to adjust.

I always carry slings the twiddly way at the back of my harness on snaplinks (simply can't stand anything round my neck!). These snaplinks are then used for belays if I've used up the couple that I carry especially for the purpose.

One thing I hate is if I arrive at a belay and find that my partner has used up any quick drawsw in the balay, which I then don't have for leading, because they couldn't be bothered to carry a couple of snaplinks or, if they like, a screwgate.

If your partner/s are novices/not leading through, then direct belay from sling/power point can be quicker/simpler to understand and attach to.

Good teaching progression too (in and out of reach methods)- clove into sling power point, then on to using rope to tie in to anchors with cloves/fig 8 at harness.

Yes, using up quickdraws at a belay is (a sign of) a total cockup. 

Don't get me started on cordelettes...

Love it. Someone giving me a dislike for talking about making a total cockup of one's belaying. So wonderfully English, this relishing one's incompetence, that I'm tempted to give it a Like. Three Men in a Boat alive and well in C21st.

Dan, Robert, the OP has specified that s/he is leading all the pitches.

I can build a belay faster with the rope than I can with a 240cm sling too, but it's not the most efficient method when you need to lead on yourself.

I can see the point if you are "guiding" someone with the simple aim of getting them up a route, but if you are teaching them to climb themselves, is it not better, more realistic, to teach them to use the rope?

5 or 6 for me. I tend to rack slings and my prussic on small screwgates and then there's my belay plate HMS and my main big HMS for tieing into the belay. This assumes that my partner also carries at least 2 or 3 of their own.

Sorry, meant 'belay' . Forget 'direct bit. Can belay direct OR indirect from a power point of course!

Kind of meant 'attach' I suppose.

I only use a 16 foot sling when leading on grit, find it really handy for slinging big blocks on a quick belay.

On multi pitch , I try for two highish belay points and one closer in.

I can attach to these quickly with the rope using no screwgates at all but one is slightly quicker.

Usually carry two screwgates for belaying but may use them on the pitch if I run out of quickdrawers.

Five and one on my belay plate, I hardly every use them all, but they are there if I need them.

Other than my belay me an, one or two. Usually snap gates are more versatile 

Meh, slings should only be carried as extendable runners, either 60cm or 120. You then have two crabs on them all ready for use on the belay. No point having them on the back, at least as a runner they have a double function.

My short (60cm?) slings are indeed carried as extenders using the magic 2 krab instant extension method. Only my long ones are carried at the back of my harness using the twiddly method (I find quadrupling them up and having them further forward they are too bulky and take up too much prime racking space).

What about spike runners ?

Long slings clipped around neck and shoulder for me.

Unclip , clip into rope , slip over spike , long extended usually bombproof runner in less than a second

Agree re less gear for pushjng your grade (whatever grade that might be).

I usually carry a 240cm sling as well as some 120 ones. Handy for slinging large features and building direct belays. I prefer direct belays these days as they’re easier to belay off and definitely preferable if you think the second might fall off! So long slings have their place but depends on the route and rock type etc.

Pretty essential in winter but I guess we’re talking about summer here. 

Sounds a bit complicated. I always carried them round my neck (or longer ones over my shoulder) with krabs already on them. So just two quick movements: slip over spike, clip into rope.

Are you serious?

Phantoms are light though which is why I carry 4

That works for single 60cm slings , as long as you don't have a tangle .

I only carry doubles,120cm , now , the singles incorporated into sling draws.

The single still works well if you are slinging a spike that you need a hand on, if you know which hand and which shoulder /arm to sling over.

Tried it a few times, in a neat coil for the first pitch then an unholy mess for the rest. These days I tend to use the rope and tie an overhand or fig 8 in the middle for a direct belay.

Cordelette useful as ab tat, though.

Surely both should be taught. Knowing how to use the rope is invaluable for when anchors are a fair way apart from one another, or a good way above the stance. Knowing how to equalise slings is invaluable for when there's not enough rope for the pitches to also use in the belay.

2

One on my belay device and one on my rack with Pro on it. 

Each person: 1 to belay, 2 to connect to anchors, 1 HMS for tying rope from anchors to rope tie in loop.

I suspect others will sub snaplinks for anchor connections.

Also just tie  back at the harness rather than waste a HMS

I always take 2 HMS lockers, one for my belay device, and the other for the harness/tie in loop/master point, plus a super-light Grivel Plume screwgate with my prussik. I don't feel the absolute need for any others, although lately I've tended to carry a couple more Plumes on slings; since they're so light you get a little more peace of mind for negligible weight penalty.

EDIT: I should add that a lot of my regular local trad routes end at tree belays followed by abseil descent.

Out of interest, why would you consider tri-loading your krab ok if a locker and not if snap?
Unless you meant using an HMS?

4

One for belay plate, one HMS for harness when building belay.  If on a longer route, then one mini HMS spare

One less than the last time I climbed ;-(