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Obviously this is a rhetorical question because who can compete with Hans Zimmer?
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In reply to The Lemming:
Yes.
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In reply to The Lemming:
Yes, probably thousands throughout the history of music. Zimmer comes up with the catchy themes (which he´s very good at), but he is incapable of developing them himself (he has self-admittedly no idea of the art and techniques of composition). He then turns them over to his co-composers/ghostwriters, orchestrators/arrangers and above all sound designers, all of whom are extremely capable and inspired in their own rights. This army of employees (up to 50, according to LinkedIn) then creates the award-winning scores.
He´s apparently a very likeable bloke, good at selling himself, and he was in the right place at the right time when the major studios were looking for ways to break away from the traditional big orchestral scores of such composers as John Williams and Ennio Morricone (now THEY were true composers!). "His" scores are very effective, but musical genius? No.
Post edited at 09:33
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In reply to The Lemming:
There's a lot of musical genius about. I couldn't possibly single one out. Anyway here's Agustin Barrios, played by Gabriel Bianco
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RGwvXCYgiuU&pp=ygUWYWd1c3RpbiBiYXJyaW9zIG...
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In reply to The Lemming:
Someone who could compete for the same crown is Maurice Jarre (father of Jean-Michel Jarre) who was a genius with a prolific and varied career
In reply to aln:
> Yes.
“If Mozart were alive today he would be working for them” was a popular refrain during the late ‘70s
In reply to birdie num num:
I see you are a classical guitar fan. If you have not yet come across Daniela Rossi then look out for her next concert schedule. I've studied classical guitar for more than 60 years and I was lucky enough to have some lessons with her some years ago. She is something special. Her playing and technique is remarkable. She can of course knock out the more popular pieces for a general audience but her interpretation and playing of more obscure and modern pieces (many of which have been composed especially for her) is remarkable for true aficionados. Somewhat off the focus of this thread but you might like the link below and you'find some Barrios on her website videos though sound recording is not the best. If you can, do go and see her in concert.
https://www.danielarossiguitarist.com/?page_id=390#/lightbox&slide=23
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In reply to Arcturus:
> Somewhat off the focus of this thread but you might like the link below and you'find some Barrios on her website videos though sound recording is not the best. If you can, do go and see her in concert.
You crack on with suggestions.😊
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In reply to Arcturus:
Yes, I've been a fan of classical guitar since I was in short pants. Always wish I was classically trained. Mainly fingerstyle blues and ragtime for me and too many bad habits alongside 40 years at sea has made it too difficult and too late to learn. I can just about struggle through Adelita and a handful of other easier studies. I love De Visee suite in d minor and could get through the prelude pretty well but after that I was too challenged on the fingering and the rest strokes. I'd get about halfway through the gigue and the bouree but it was an inelegant grab fest for the notes. I'd not seen Daniela Rossi before and have just checked out your link, yes she looks extremely accomplished, I'll watch her videos. One of the great pleasures I think of classical guitar (any great guitar really) is watching the performer. Thanks for that.
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In reply to birdie num num:
Nothing wrong with Adelita! Recorded by many great performers including Julian Bream of course 😊
In reply to Arcturus:
You haven't heard me play it.....
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In reply to The Lemming:
Well I listened all the way through your example of "musical genius" but it did nothing for me at all. Seemed pretty good in a kind of background mood and sound effects role but I'd struggle to class it as a musical piece.
Id take Ennio Morricone, Max Richter, Pat Metheny and innumerable and hugely varied others in preference to background mood sounds that I have to try hard to stay focused on.
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In reply to The Lemming:
Just given you a like for your nerve...
(I'm surprised none of the resident Beethoven fanatics are on your case yet!)
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In reply to The Lemming:
To quote Pat Metheney being interviewed by Rick Beato, ‘compared to Bach, we all suck’. Case closed.
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In reply to McHeath:
> Zimmer comes up with the catchy themes (which he´s very good at), but he is incapable of developing them himself... [his]..army of employees (up to 50, according to LinkedIn) then creates the award-winning scores.
A bit like an aural Damien Hurst
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In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
> To quote Pat Metheney being interviewed by Rick Beato, ‘compared to Bach, we all suck’. Case closed.
Well bespoke
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In reply to The Lemming:
There's a story about Stephen Spielberg asking John Williams to write the music for Schindler's List and Williams said something like "You need a better composer than me for this," and Spielberg said "Yes, but they're all dead..."
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In reply to The Lemming:
Doesn't even come close! 🤭
In reply to The Lemming:
Sounds like cliche'd mists-of-timey stuff to me. Been done to death.
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In reply to fimm:
> There's a story about Stephen Spielberg asking John Williams to write the music for Schindler's List and Williams said something like "You need a better composer than me for this," and Spielberg said "Yes, but they're all dead..."
Brilliant!
Mick
In reply to The Lemming:
As mentioned by John Arran (and probably millions of others around the world if they read these thread, as the guy is hardly obscure), in terms of “genius” I think Ennio Morricone is closer to that status than is Hans Zimmer. Zimmer does very good scores for movies and they mostly (not Interstellar) work very well with the movie. He sticks to a certain sonic palette and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Morricone has a good number of themes and motifs that people know and hum and whistle without even knowing what films they are from , let alone having seen the films. I can’t think of a Zimmer that people hum, idly. People write, record and release all sorts of different arrangements of Morricone’s orchestral film scores. I found a flute and piano duo recording of his classics. Yo-Yo Ma tried to do a cello-led one. There are piano solo recordings of specific scores. People sing them. I’ve seen a film recording of someone leading an orchestra in one of Morricone’s most iconic themes, on Theremin (replacing a vocal in the original). Does Zimmer’s music lend itself to such interpretation? That’s genius.
As mentioned by John Arran (and probably millions of others around the world if they read these thread, as the guy is hardly obscure), in terms of “genius” I think Ennio Morricone is closer to that status than is Hans Zimmer. Zimmer does very good scores for movies and they mostly (not Interstellar) work very well with the movie. He sticks to a certain sonic palette and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Morricone has a good number of themes and motifs that people know and hum and whistle without even knowing what films they are from , let alone having seen the films. I can’t think of a Zimmer that people hum, idly. People write, record and release all sorts of different arrangements of Morricone’s orchestral film scores. I found a flute and piano duo recording of his classics. Yo-Yo Ma tried to do a cello-led one. There are piano solo recordings of specific scores. People sing them. I’ve seen a film recording of someone leading an orchestra in one of Morricone’s most iconic themes, on Theremin (replacing a vocal in the original). Does Zimmer’s music lend itself to such interpretation? That’s genius.
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In reply to The Lemming:
I've got a musical genius singing outside at the moment. Turdus Merula.
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In reply to Bob Kemp:
> (I'm surprised none of the resident Beethoven fanatics are on your case yet!)
Yes they are! A colossus as far as any music is concerned. Listen to this ...
https://youtu.be/XljW3y3bumg?feature=shared
Post edited at 13:45
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In reply to Bob Kemp:
> (I'm surprised none of the resident Beethoven fanatics are on your case yet!)
Listened to another genuine genius in a memorable live performance last night at Birmingham Town Hall: Schubert's transcendent final three piano sonatas played by the brilliant Paul Lewis*.
Hans seems somewhat diminutive in comparison. I don't really think old Zimmer has the frame of a colossus.
*Fans of some of the greatest solo piano music ever written might want to check out Lewis's marvellous recent performance of these at the Wigmore Hall, which is still on BBC Sounds:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001xnlk
Post edited at 18:16
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In reply to The Lemming:
No, obviously.
Hans Zimmer is so instantly recognisable because his output is so samey and predictable. Drop Zone and Pirates being the most blatant. Heck, I could tell he was involved within moments of the sounds firing up in the Wallace and Grommet movie. Rather spoilt the movie I thought.
I find Harold Faltermeyer far more talented in the same genre, and he is able to vary his sound a lot more, but he’s still not the greatest musical genius by any stretch.
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In reply to Blue Straggler:
I felt the music for Interstellar was a fantastic fit for the cinematic landscape and content. Ex- muso here, too.
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In reply to pencilled in:
Not Zimmer's "fault" but I felt Nolan had gone too far in trying to evoke the "old fashioned" bombastic orchestral scores where a big cue is used to alert the audience to "proper major important thing about to happen....and....yes...NOW it's happening - pay full attention, plebs"
It took me out of the film lots of times. An egregious example would be after Matt Damon has messed things up and Matthew McConaughey has to do a difficult and dangerous manual docking procedure, the music ramps up and we cut to a long shot.
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In reply to The Lemming:
> Obviously this is a rhetorical question because who can compete with Hans Zimmer?
Andre Rieu ?
In reply to Blue Straggler:
That’s fair. I have two opinions.
1. I know sweet FA about cinema and am a sucker for a cliche.
2. I have a soft spot for Christopher Nolan generally and I particularly enjoyed Interstellar so I’m in popcorn mode when watching rather than critique mode.
🤷
In reply to pencilled in:
In turn, that's fair. Crikey, an amicable and civil, grown-up disagreement on a subjective topic on the UKC forums. Very rare. My confession is that I have the opposite of a soft spot for Nolan and can't help but watch with a certain pre-judgement in mind : )
But back to my original point. Do people randomly whistle (say) Now We Are Free from Gladiator? They do this with various Morricone pieces. Not that this "proves" who is the greater (ahem) "genius" ....
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In reply to birdie num num:
That was fantastic, thank you.
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In reply to Blue Straggler:
> People sing them.
I'm trying to remember a quote, maybe the Beatles? Something about your record having more chance of being a hit if, rather than critics liking it, the postman's singing it or people are humming it at a bus stop.
In reply to aln:
> Something about your record having more chance of being a hit if, rather than critics liking it, the postman's singing it or people are humming it at a bus stop.
Anton von Webern (together with Schönberg and Berg one of the three principal original exponents of 12 tone music) made the famous claim in the early 20th century that people would be singing his themes on the streets in 20 years. It never happened, but that doesn’t detract from his genius in handling an orchestra, and his influence on composers such as Boulez and Stockhausen was immense. The techniques and sounds that he and his contemporaries invented have long been assimilated into film music; they’re probably part of the standard repertoire for many of the composers now working for Hans Zimmer. Webern died because he went outside for a cigar during a night raid on his Austrian house just after WW2 had ended, and was erroneously shot by an American soldier.
https://youtu.be/reqqQ-kBJQ0?si=gb0KKVvK8P1j2dSs
Post edited at 23:23
In reply to aln:
> I'm trying to remember a quote, maybe the Beatles? Something about your record having more chance of being a hit if, rather than critics liking it, the postman's singing it or people are humming it at a bus stop.
I thought that (or something like it) was said by Mozart...
In reply to fimm:
sounds a bit like the story supposedly behind the title of the 'old grey whistle test' (2nd paragraph in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Grey_Whistle_Test )
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In reply to aln:
> I'm trying to remember a quote, maybe the Beatles? Something about your record having more chance of being a hit if, rather than critics liking it, the postman's singing it or people are humming it at a bus stop.
Are you thinking of The Old Grey Whistle Test?
If the silver haired sound man and lighting guy are whistling your tune after soundcheck, you’re onto a winner. Sadly this applies in equal measure to theme from The Muppet Show as it does to Waterloo Sunset.
Edit - ah. Had not read previous post.
Post edited at 20:57
In reply to The Lemming:
I wonder if anyone here remembers the Welsh guitarist John James? I bought an album in around 1978 on the Kicking Mule label. Set up by Stefan Grossman. I went to see him in the (long demolished) Glenda Jackson Theatre in Birkenhead. The great thing about Kicking Mule was... they provided the tab booklet in the sleeve so you could have a crack at the pieces and tangle your fingers up.
Aside from composers, I just love the genius of improvisation.
I had thought about a link to Clive Carroll and his take on Willie Brown's Mississippi Blues, and/or a myriad of other modern geniuses....but I've settled on the gentle John James from the days of my youth, nice feller. Here he is, twanging a bit of Joplin...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgak5jsTIEY&pp=ygURam9obiBqYW1lcyBndWl0YX...
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In reply to Doug:
> sounds a bit like the story supposedly behind the title of the 'old grey whistle test' (2nd paragraph in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Grey_Whistle_Test )
Well, I never knew that about The Old Grey Whistle Test.
I was convinced there was a Mozart-related version of this (something to do with the messenger-boys whistling his tunes) but googling has so far failed to find anything to confirm this.
In reply to fimm:
Good thread.
To add to the debate (but avoiding the greatest genius), I am just reading about a song so well written that it has crossed multiple genres "As it evolved from ragtime through jazz, boogie-woogie, big-band swing, small combo rhythm-and-blues, rockabilly, blues-rock, acid rock, heavy metal, punk, thrash, psychobilly, and points beyond...."
That has to be well written right? any others...?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_Kept_A-Rollin%27
(I discovered the rich history of this song as currently reading Jimmy Page biography which is fascinating , especially around his pre Led Zep/New Yard Bird session guitar work as a teenager)
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
> That has to be well written right? any others...?
At some point aliens will discover that an advanced civilization arose on at least one planet in the galaxy
In reply to Lankyman:
'When biologist Lewis Thomas was asked what message he would choose to send into outer space in the Voyager spacecraft, he said: “I would send the complete works of Johann Sebastian Bach … but that would be boasting.”'
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