UKC

Been out of climbing for a while due to carpal tunnel surgery, divorce, kids and starting a business, but its back in my life now and I'm loving it again.

Got a question though about indoor walls. When the F!?k did it become so readily acceptable for guys to be bouldering/climbing semi naked?

I have noticed this at one venue in particular, not my local wall thankfully.

Is this the same the country over these days?

I visited The Depot tonight and thought I'd walked into a friggin' swimming pool not a climbing wall?!!!

What gives!

Put on a t-shirt ffs

In reply to itsmystronghand:

It gets kinda sweaty when you're trying your hardest.

Sweating without a shirt on is less gross than sweating with one on.

In reply to Luke_92:


Compared to other sports where they don't feel the need to strip off? Never heard of a boulderer collapsing through dehydration!

In reply to summo:

I prefer to take my shirt off in any sweaty sport. YMMV
At the end of the day, what harm is a nipple doing anyone? Mine don't even serve a function... who cares?

In reply to Luke_92:


I guess you'd need to pierce them to hang a race number from them. Everything has a purpose.

In reply to summo:

Now there's a good point!

In reply to itsmystronghand:

I'd suggest you have a long hard think about why you feel uncomfortable being around male nipples.

In reply to itsmystronghand:

Quick woman! Throw some stout hessian over those disgustingly curved table legs lest the devil gives me impure thoughts!

In reply to itsmystronghand:
My impression is that because climbing walls are now more family places[1] than gyms for hard-knocks that it is actually LESS accepted than it used to be. That was the reason Big Rock gave when they asked people not to go around shirtless a while ago, anyway, and it seems similar at other walls.

I wear a T-shirt personally because you don't want to see my fat gut, anyway

[1] I get the inconsistency with swimming pools which are also family places, though.

In reply to Luke_92:

thats lovely for people around you isn't it

In reply to MischaHY:

ah a homosexual reference

not guilty i'm afraid. I take my kids climbing and friends bring their young daughters, who in the past have left because of all the strutting males with their tops off.

I just think its inappropriate. And the sweating thing i think is bullshit, if I had to venture an opinion its more about ego than body temperature

i don't care if you've got a six pack or pecks and i don't find it intimidating at all. Just put on a f*cking shirt

I go to a gym too where much more impressive bodies are training hard, never is anyone doing it shirtless

In reply to itsmystronghand:

Yeah, but what's he done on grit?

In reply to itsmystronghand:

Why does it make any difference to the people around him?

He likes his top off, you like your top on. Both don't effect each other's ability to work to their preference.

What specifically don't you like about topless men?

In reply to ThunderCat:

Yes maybe I am a bit victorian, after all I am 44 now, I'm practically Victor Meldrew.

Funny your comment is about women covering up. I never see them climbing topless. If they did I'm pretty sure it too would be classed as inappropriate

In reply to itsmystronghand:

I'm a pretty poor climber really and I feel self conscious without a top on but that doesn't really stop me for the odd 20 minutes when I need to. I just prefer it if I'm getting sweaty and frustrated in a boiling hot warehouse. The place I guy isn't really full of ego as far as I can tell which would certainly change my mind. You and your kids will probably survive...

In reply to itsmystronghand:

I personally don't see it as inappropriate, and I can guarantee the 'young daughters' you mentioned won't see it that way - it's just adults projecting sexuality onto something that is totally non-sexual. Unless you think everyone should wear full body clothing in the swimming pool as well? (You have to admit, it's a funny thought.)

TBH my comment wasn't so much pointing out homosexual tension as that it's weird that one man can't see another man topless without feeling uncomfortable. Is that really the world we live in?

In reply to itsmystronghand:

To go back to the swimming pool reference...

Why is it acceptable to go topless (for men) if im at a pool, but nowhere else? Does chlorine suddenly make my upper body less offensive?

I just don't really get why this is an issue. Strutting and posing is a separate issue I think. I don't do that, I just want to be more comfortable when I climb.

In reply to Luke_92:



This is a dumb question. It's because it's a different context, a different environment, with different social norms. Surely that's obvious? You may as well ask why it's acceptable to be butt naked on a nudist beach but not at a Primary School Sports Day.

In reply to MischaHY:


It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sex. You can try to be logical about it, re the swimming pool reference, but we are social, not logical. Some things are acceptable at the swimming pool and some things are acceptable at church, the bouldering gym is neither of these things. Would you be happy to train in a bouldering gym full of men wearing speedos? If that was the dress code at my local gym I think I'd go elsewhere, and it's got nothing to do with sex or prudishness - it's just not an environment I want to train in. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

In reply to itsmystronghand:


Why?

In reply to itsmystronghand:

People get sweaty at indoor walls.

But a lot of the reason you see young men topless, is because they've been watching videos of top climbers putting up 9a routes without a shirt on, so they follow suit to try and make themselves look like wads down the wall

In reply to Luke_92:


No doubt, you definitely work up a sweat standing around on the mats chatting.

In reply to itsmystronghand:
This subject has been covered before. Bottom line is it's about ego.
All the rest is smoke and mirrors to attempt to justify.

In reply to planetmarshall:


I'd be no more bothered by it then when in the swimming pool, which is kind of my point?


Except there's no justification behind it. Why would you have a problem? Why is the male/female body so offensive to your eyes?

It's a fair question.

In reply to MischaHY:

Good for you, but not everyone feels the same. Surely you can appreciate that other people may feel differently from you? It might not seem like a logical reaction to you, but we don't always react logically.


You are assuming I find it offensive. I don't, but I'm not a nudist either. It was over 30 degrees for a couple of days this summer, but I didn't choose to go to work in my pants just because I would have felt more comfortable. I'm aware that other people may not have appreciated that choice, and I'm not such a selfish arse that I am insensitive to how other people might feel.

Bottom line is that I know that there's a significant proportion of people that find indoor gyms unpleasant to train in because of the number of guys training topless, for whatever reason. Rather than tell them it's their problem, it's no massive hardship for me to wear a vest.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Because to me it's egocentric and intimidating to some.

My son for example. He's 10 and never wants to do routes near guys with their tops off as he's intimidated.

They've got their tops off they must be good And I'm only on green routes so I'll steer clear.

The guys in question may not be elitist like that but they're appearance says otherwise

In reply to spartacus:

But it's clearly not all about ego, I'm not a good climber, my ego would be constantly smashed if I cared but find it more comfortable in certain situations. If it wasn't acceptable at the place I go I would not do it but wish I could and suffer with wearing horrible sweaty clothes (or wear a vest and presumably be equally judged?). It might be ego for some people but even if it is, why does it matter? If it helps them feel like their favourite pro then they will climb better and enjoy themselves

In reply to itsmystronghand:


So does he also steer clear of people climbing hard routes (surely a better indication of them being good than their clothing)? And why does he have a problem with people being good anyway?

In reply to itsmystronghand:

I can see how that is an issue actually. Although I tend to be intimidated by people climbing higher grades than me right next door tshirt or no tshirt, I know they don't mean it to be intimidating but it certainly makes me feel uncomfortable and I'm certainly older than 10...

In reply to itsmystronghand:


It's what wads do in videos and the good-ish muscly guys do at the walls so people copy them. You also the get the "check out my abs" brigade who spot other people with their tops off and join in as it's an excuse to get the bod out.

Personally, as a sweaty man I keep a t-shirt on. The last thing other people want is mats drenched in my sweat so keeping my t-shirt on stops me dripping around the place.

On the offending kids line, my 4yo daughter has yet to mention the prevalence of naked male flesh on show at the Manc Depot.

In reply to itsmystronghand:

It's a shame he doesn't see the good strong guys as inspiring but intimidating. Maybe you could speak to the good guy and introduce your son so he could see that the strong guy is just a normal person and he could aspire to be that good?

In reply to itsmystronghand:

Urgh this again. Once more I ask those people who say its all about ego - where do I fit in? A guy who prefers climbing shirtless but feels anxious because of all the comments on threads like these and is more likely to climb shirtless when alone than when others are about? Am I posing and showing off?

Get over yourselves, and ideally, let people do what makes them feel comfortable, it really doesn't affect you unless you decide it does

In reply to Lifeismeaningless:

My ordinary training gym insists on people wearing a top at all times and will ban you if you repeat not wearing a top. It is in the interests of hygiene. A top soaks up sweat, no top allows sweat to spray around more. In that gym are people who are pushing very hard, enough for them to enter the UK strongest man comps in their weight category, and also a few body builders. They all accept that a top should be worn, and why, and will quickly tell staff when young, mostly, men take their top off and try to strut their stuff.
In really hot conditions the captured sweat evaporating off the tee shirt actually has a better cooling effect than no top. Get really sweaty and stand near the door to exaggerate the effect. You will soon cool if wearing a top, but will take longer if topless. This defeats the argument used by 'climbers' in the gym, that not wearing a top keeps you cooler. It is also obvious that it is an ego trip when you see the same guys topless on days when thermal outfits are almost essential, and they are asking for the heating to be turned on.

In reply to itsmystronghand:

It's flipping hot in the wall sometimes, so I take my top off if I'm doing laps.

I'm not good enough for it to be an ego thing.

In reply to johncook:

We tested this once in a bouldering wall - the guys in shirts ended up loads sweatier, and more uncomfortable than the guys without. A gym and a bouldering cave simply aren't comparable

In reply to galpinos:
To the guy above saying it's not gross, just this


To the guy above saying it's not gross, just this ^^^^^

I can't say I'm keen on seeing guy's flashing their abs around the place as for every one who wants to keep cool, there will be another who wants to show off. Personally I go to the wall to train as hard as I can, not to show people my body. If I wanted to do that I'd go to a normal gym. As for it being inspiring, I'm more inspired by what these wads can do on the wall, and the truth is they can do that with their shirt on too. Couldn't care less what shape their abs are.

In reply to johncook:

Doesn't work for me, I've been wearing wicking tshirts and things to try not to boil and I still get too hot. Each to their own.

In reply to johncook:

Maybe it's more about comfort than temperature. I always wear a t-shirt or vest because I find it more comfortable than topless. But I also always wear shorts because I hate the discomfort of climbing in trousers. If I was suddenly told that shorts were "inappropriate" I would be outraged. I imagine those who are told topless is "inappropriate" feel the same.

In reply to itsmystronghand:

https://goo.gl/images/0xY50S

!!!

In reply to galpinos:

I agree with that but it's difficult not to feel self conscious if you are just starting out. The GF has the same problem when I take her mountain biking, shes intimidating by people (like me) on nice bikes wearing all the gear, it's hard to convince her that they are all just guys like me who like riding bikes and are generally friendly and supportive of new riders. For the record, I ride and race faster if I feel like a professional, it's a big mental game after a certain point

In reply to itsmystronghand:

"Where's me washboard". Clever; I thought of the clapped out old comic who told the same old gag interminably, just like this subject. The old ones are the best though, so 7/10 for getting this lot going again.

In reply to itsmystronghand:

It has been very hot recently, if people are climbing indoors in that weather and actually trying hard they are going to get sweaty and it feels horrible walking about in a damp sweat soaked T-shirt. I very rarely go topless myself unless it is really very hot, but some people sweat more than others and I don't have a problem with people taking their shirts off if they wish.

What is more interesting is why do you? does it offend you in some way, or are you intimidated by guys with their muscles out, or do you just think walls should have a dress code?

In reply to jezb1:

Try keeping it on and stay cooler!

In reply to beardy mike:

I'm not too keen on the facially challenged flashing their ugly mugs at the wall, but they keep insisting on removing their paper bags. Oh well, each to their own.

In reply to johncook:


But then you're draped in a sweaty rag, cooler maybe, but more uncomfortable.

In reply to Sir Chasm:

Haha - it's my dark secret. What little strength I have I lose as soon as I shave.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Wandering into work in your boxers is considerably different. Like, clearly.

Personally I recommend informing the wall owners of your discomfort and leaving, thereby removing the 'problem'.

In reply to planetmarshall:
It's really just this, consideration for others. I know there are probably no tangible reasons why going topless should affect others but you could say the same about swearing, invading personal space or many other types of behaviour. Pointing out that humans do not always behave in a 100% rational manner doesn't make your arguments clever or water tight, it just demonstrates that you've failed to understand human emotion or that people can't always articulate why they feel a particular way. That's not to say that just because someone feels something should be a done a particular way then that's the way it should be but if lots of people feel that way and there is no harm in you accommodating them, then why not?

In reply to summo:


Plenty of runners get there tops off at the first opportunity, both in training and racing, particularly fell running. It is a no no in high level competition, but elsewhere quite common.

In reply to itsmystronghand:


It probably would and I don't want to get in to a long debate about the sexualisation of breasts and the double standards around topless men and women. However, your OP specifically refers to washboard stomachs. I see at least as many women climbing in cropped or sport bra type tops as I do men climbing topless, both exposing their perfect or not so perfect stomachs.

In reply to MischaHY:


So you're saying that what's socially acceptable in one context might not be acceptable in another? Why not? What is it about exposed flesh at work that you find so offensive?

In reply to planetmarshall:

It's probably more that you are being paid to be there by your boss and your boss probably thinks it's unprofessional. Trainers aren't socially unacceptable but they aren't allowed at work...

In reply to Robert Durran:

He's 10
He feels intimidated as he's knew to it
I'm not sure he a problem with people being good

In reply to Lifeismeaningless:

Well yes, but it was more an illustration to make a (what I thought obvious) point, that just because certain attire is fine at a swimming pool doesn't make it fine everywhere else. Human beings are rarely so straightforward, as Tyler put above.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

The latter

In reply to itsmystronghand:

I find it mildly amusing when I see boulderers stripped to the waist, and f*ing hilarious when they're also wearing a beanie.

In reply to itsmystronghand:

Fair enough, but this contradicts what you said earlier. You do seem to be getting a bit muddled trying to rationalise your objections. It may well not be rational, but I think those who prefer to climb topless deserve better from you.

In reply to Robert Durran:
People who climb topless deserve better from me..

What an utterly ridiculous statement

Much the same as my ex wife's new boyfriend

They deserve nothing more than my scathing contempt (even though he's not a bad lad)

I'm struggling to understand how I've contradicted myself

Do you climb without a top on then?

In reply to itsmystronghand:



No it wasn't. It was actually about covering up a table with a table cloth because the table legs looked vaguely curved...

Viz. Victorian Dad

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7s_nTsIMAA58UC.jpg

In reply to planetmarshall:

Personally, nothing much. But then I wander around the office barefoot and wearing climbing clothes, so I'm maybe not the best example...

In reply to itsmystronghand:

They're exactly the same people whether they have their tops on or their tops off. They're not doing anything to you or your son and I think we've established they aren't climbing any harder because of a lack of shirt, so the only issue is your reaction/neurosis, and you need to manage that yourself (and try not to do what Larkin suggests you're doing to your son).

In reply to itsmystronghand:

Earlier: "They've got their tops off they must be good And I'm only on green routes so I'll steer clear."

Then later: "I'm not sure he's a problem with people being good"


If you want to impose a dress code on other climbers you need to come up with something more rational than self contradictory arguments which suggest nothing more than prejudice and a knee jerk reaction.


No, I feel more comfortable with a top on.

In reply to itsmystronghand:

I climb without a top when I'm hot and sweating, need to cool down a bit, and feel like it would help. As far as I am concerned it is none of your business, and I don't really feel the need to pander all the insecurities of people who are in the gym. Should I only climb things below my limit around people worse than me, incase they are intimidated? It isn't an ego thing, at all; if the gym was completely empty, and I was hot, I would still take my top off, same as if I was outside bouldering in hot weather, alone or not.

At what point does it become inappropriate to you? Is it just the nipples, or am I not allowed to wear a tank top or vest either in your mind? You said that you believe walls should have a dress code, but I think this needs some justification - why? Climbing is supposed to be fun, just enjoy yourself rather than getting all hot and bothered about meaningless issues, what people choose to wear is nothing to do with you.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Well I'm guessing I'm not alone in my alleged neurosis if walls are introducing a clothed only policy

Thanks to those that answered that question.

I'll ignore the parenting advise if it's all the same to those that offered it

In reply to itsmystronghand:

This subject crops up every year and the same arguments get trotted out. Essentially young men with big muscles "can't see what all the fuss is about" and the weak / fat / old men, plus all the women see them as poseurs. There is no solution to this dichotomy and the wall will only impose a dress code if topless men are (or are thought to be) having a negative effect on the bottom line, by deterring women, fat men, old men and weak men from spending their money.

tldr - life's short: move on.

HTH

Andy

In reply to Andy Hardy:

But... I am weak. I'd make a dreadful poser!

In reply to Lifeismeaningless:


Is there any other sort?

In reply to itsmystronghand:

Personally i feel a little too self conscious climbing topless, but that's cos i'm skinny.
I don't understand why all the fuss about 6 packs! How do they take precedence for show over your 2 Pec.
I struggle to build any decent size with Pecs, but
I could gain a 6 pack ok.
I s'pose if i could muscle up a bit i might feel like showing it off too, but think i'm the more reserved type.
Now if i had tattoos, on my calves, of course i would wear shorts in mid winter outdoors too.
Some shirtless guys wanna be posey, others just want to be free of a sweaty shirt.
I sympathise as i don't like seeing sweaty bods climbing, it looks better with a sweaty vest, but i guess both don't look great.
I'm more concerned about sweating through my shorts, but speedos could help there, only i'd be feeling a little too self conscious again!

fat men, old men and weak men from spending their money.

In reply to Rock to Fakey:

a six pack on a skinny guy is like tits on a fat bird.... they dont count

In reply to La benya:


Awwww!!! you what???

This is absolutely devastating news for me.

In reply to itsmystronghand:

It's not bullshit. On harder routes and for climbers who are climbing close to their physical limit friction can make a massive difference. Some climbers sweat more than others too, just down to genetics. Some use substances like antihydral to reduce sweating. Most use chalk for that reason. If you watched the recent British Bouldering Championships you might have noticed many climbers sat in front of small fans to cool down their fingers. Some climbers climb at night with headtorches because it's cooler so they sweat less then. So climbers will go to pretty extreme lengths to minimize sweating. Climbing topless is a very easy way to reduce core temperature and definitely helps.

I think the only reason some people find it offensive or offputting is simply that they're not used to it. After a while it's just like the beach or swimming pool: you get used it and it ceases to be a problem.

In reply to itsmystronghand:




I'm female and when it's hot, I prefer to climb with my top off. I completely understand why people do it and do not find it intimidating whether it's men or women.

When I'm training really hard, I take my top off so I don't overheat and grease off all the holds. Not because I think I look good, but because it makes me more effective. I used to be more self conscious but I've realised life is too short to worry about what people think of me!

I think your ego feels threatened by these strutting males (and females?). Why waste energy being offended by other people? Focus on yourself and let people get on with own their thing!

P.s I do abide by my local walls tops on policy and make the most of it when I go elsewhere!

In reply to Tyler:

Your point is the crux of the debate; should the offended be protected from offence or is the offender really the victim being unfairly inhibited by the easily offended.

In reality there is blame on both sides. There are shirtless dudes who strut about in winter and use their climbing skill and physique to prop up their fragile ego just as there are bumbly dad-bod trad climbs who probably should focus more on their own climbing rather than project their insecurities on to the 'good' climbers around them.

The solution: dress for the occasion, if it's July, over 30c and an un-vented climbing wall and the majority are adults climbing hard maybe keep your opinions to yourself and focus on your own climbing.

If its winter and there's a dude with no shirt on and a beanie campusing v2s in front of girls and the wall's family orientated and novice climber focused politely suggest to the guy now might not be the time or place.

In reply to itsmystronghand:
At least blokes don't climb in lycra tights so much anymore!... where's that photo of Mick Lovatt + Andy Politt again....!

In reply to itsmystronghand:
Who cares if someone is topless or has a t shirt on, the real issue is people wearing sleeveless vests. Horrible things which remind me of the misery of school PE lessons. I'd rather see someone topless than in a vest!

Incidentally, there's a kid who is a regular at one of my local walls who is almost always topless. He's around 12 so it's not like he's trying to show off his muscles (even if he's a better boulderers than me, ha!). I don't know if he's imitating some of the hard boulderers or just gets hot or just does it out of habit. His parents are climbers as well and don't have an issue with it.

Personally I only go tops off when doing stamina training and if it's warm at the wall. For general bouldering and routes I actually prefer to have a t shirt on as it reduces the chances of getting scuffs and scrapes.

In reply to planetmarshall:
I honestly don't want to see my colleagues with their tops off!

In reply to johncook:


Is sweat actually unhygienic? The notion of being sprayed with someone else's is a little icky, but my more rational thoughts reason there's not much real harm likely. I always find it a little curious that some people obsessively wipe and spray gym equipment before/after using it, but I suppose it's a courtesy gesture as much as anything, which I'd have to concede is worth recognising.
By the same reasoning, maybe we should be keeping tops on as a courtesy gesture. On the other hand, when I'm hot I find a wet shirt unpleasant and constrictive and would much rather not wear one, so I'd be more for encouraging people not to find going topless when doing active stuff discourteous


What about when still active and the shirt has already become saturated? If there's nowhere for the continuing sweat to evaporate to might there not be implications for the body's temperature management?

In reply to itsmystronghand:

Judging by the likes and dislikes, opinion is virtually a 50/50 split.

I mostly climb with a T-shirt on, but if its really hot, I will take it off. This isn't too do with posing, believe me, and I've nothing to be 'having an ego' about, it's mostly about comfort and freedom of movement. Wearing a sweaty, sticky t-shirt feels like it prevents quick and easy arm movement. It sticks to your back and shoulders which doesn't feel pleasant or conducive to optimum performance. For me, it's as simple as that.

And to whoever it was further up the thread that climbing next to better climbers was intimidating, for me it's the opposite. I find it impressive and inspiring and it usually makes me try harder.

In reply to itsmystronghand:

The no t shirt bros don't bother me. I usually have enough horse power to burn them off.


























Dislike away! :P

In reply to Tru:


Judgment of what's an appropriate circumstance is hard to make, and I don't feel that people can arbitrarily make that judgment for others... In ten years of climbing I would say most if not all of the walls I've visited have a varied mix of strong / weak / newbie / old-school climbers. Who are you to decide to walk up to someone and tell the guy (remarkable that it's only topless men who cause the discomfiture) that 'now might not be the time or place'?

If it's that out of place it deserves a grin and a shake of the head - some people are just peacocks, you find them everywhere.

I'm all for people saying things face to face rather than spraying about gripes on a forum. But I go to climbing walls to get better at climbing, the process and results of which I find fun. If I'm working hard and getting hot as a result, and someone comes over to patronisingly suggest that I've 'got it wrong' when I take my top off, I imagine they would politely be told where to put their opinion... For me it's quite simple. Wear light clothing. Shorts help. If you're still getting too hot, top off.

It's not a huge problem, you see worse on the streets of the UK at the first hint of spring sunshine.

In reply to johncook:

I think your opinion is a little misguided. How do you explain the effectiveness of a -shirt once it reaches saturation point? It no longer serves its purpose. This happened to me last week. What did I do? I took it off and felt much cooler.

As for hygiene, I'm highly confident that tops off aren't a concern. What next? like ice-rinks, "everyone off the wall so we can sanitise the holds".

Another consideration, is that some people try harder than others. Some are more committed. Some are there to train and improve themselves and that involves really pushing yourself. When I wear a sweaty top, I feel it. It distracts slightly. When I take my top off I'm 100% committed and feel freer. I couldn't care less as to who chooses to spend their time watching others rather than climbing. I'm there to climb or train.

In reply to all who have posted above and anyone else with an opinion on the matter:

Come on people, this discussion seems to have gone cold without reaching a definitive conclusion, I insist you keep debating this matter until you all reach agreement, then we won't have to revisit the topic ever again.

In reply to EddInaBox:

I think the 37 likes and 36 dislikes mean that a definitive conclusion is wishful thinking.

In reply to itsmystronghand:

Missed this thread while I was away but ...

IMO most attempts at rationalising motives are missing the main reason, which is that, in the early days especially (but still very much so today,) climbing walls were extensions of the crag environment. People usually would, and often still do, get changed at the foot of the wall instead of trotting off to get changed in private. People would keep their bags with them, often with drinks and snacks on hand for when they wanted them. In short, they behaved much more like they were at a crag than like they were in an indoor sports hall.

Gradually this attitude and behaviour has eroded, particularly in places where many of the indoor wall users rarely if ever get out to crags, and workout gym or aerobics class norms have started to take over. However, while it's definitely a continuum and the direction of travel seems to be clear, such walls are still in the minority in most of the UK. Also, the most high profile walls for wads very much retain a crag or bouldering area feel, rather than what many climbers would see as the more prudish and behaviour-conscious feel of gyms or indoor sports halls.

Taking your top off, therefore, is something most people would do as they would at the crag, simply because it's more comfortable that way when it gets a bit warm. The idea that most people with tops off are deliberately showing off is quite laughable in that context, although I don't doubt there are some individuals who take tops off more readily for that reason.

I find the often-expressed aversion to tops-off in walls to be an indication of how far climbing has reached into mainstream sport and mainstream society, bring with it norms from non-climbing activities and environments. I understand why people would feel that way, and why they would explain it as strutting and show-off behaviour, since that would be a likely explanation in a gym, a yoga class, or on a badminton court. Swimming has its own tradition and associated norms, developed no doubt originally from swimming norms outdoors, and we've become accustomed so much to its norms of near-nakedness that we think it's odd when people don't conform to these very different conventions.

I think it's a little sad that climbing is increasingly seen, among climbers as well as non-climbers, as having more in common with indoor sports than with outdoor activities, but given the huge growth in participant rates and the great opportunities for indoor climbing fun we have now, I accept that some of this is inevitable. But that's not to say I think it's right - I'm convinced the opposition to tops-off in walls is pure prudish convention, but then again when I started to use climbing walls they were really just indoor crags, so perhaps I would see things that way.