UKC

Accepting that, in summer, and particularly this year there is a overwhelming number of vans parked up in beauty spots. lets adopt the pragmatic solution presented by the Spanish that I witnessed on the Atlantic coast. Acknowledge that some people choose to use campervans as the are intended to be used. Just put some portaloos and stand pipes in the out-of-sight car parks. The campers can then stay for free without annoying the residents or crapping in the hedges. it works in Spain. Farmers could also open up their out of view fields to accomodate the summer time rush.

Perfect.  Let me know how the facility funding gets on.

The Spanish manage it. I suspect its because they realise the being welcoming brings in money. Van lifers aren't all poverty stricken. Two serviced portaloos isn't going to stretch the councils coffers too far.

Or the pragmatic solution I've seen on the Spanish Atlantic coast, 2m high barriers into the car parks, enforcement by the police and campsites well out of sight.

They used to be common here didn't they. To keep the travellers out presumably. 

Highland Council are talking about something similar.

In which case you can afford to pay for toilets.  Sort of like a campsite ?

An easy option is to allow overnight stays in town car parks. Powys does this. They often have public toilet facilities available already and are mostly empty overnight. They could either charge a small amount or maybe have a "pass" to purchase for the area that allows stays of 1 night per car park. 

There is no such thing as "stay for free" either in UK or Spain. 

All it means is the cost - whether environmental or other - is picked up by someone other than the user. 

The trouble is that some people, particularly on here, object to campervans for rational pragmatic reasons like parking congestion, carbon footprint, toilet arrangements or the really bad actors who behave even more anti-socially and dealing with or reducing those problems might satisfy those people. But another big group of people just plain doesn't like too many people, particularly outsiders, enjoying "their" countryside (all the more if they seem to be getting something for nothing). They'll dress it up with more specific practical problems if they can but if you dealt with every single problem perfectly, there'd be an everlasting supply of more and more flimsy objections that will never go away. And you'd best believe those people will scream bloody murder at any suggestion to make sensible allowances for campervans.

See, for an example of the same basic attitude, the slashed tires in the Peak just after lockdown. Which surely only increased the amount of contact between the targets and locals. Or the Peak villagers spitting with rage about cyclists passing through their village. Because a moment's thought showed they posed zero Covid risk, but that wasn't the point because they'd always resented them and now they had a stick to beat them with. Or the "go home" graffiti painted over "diolch" on the way into Dali's hole. Or every landowner who's ever tried to ban climbing or close footpaths for the sheer joylessness of keeping people from enjoying what doesn't belong to them.

That's what the ones around me in the Frankenjura do, a car park with hook-up and toilet dump-out, ticket machine and one even has a beer vending machine!

For a local councillor ( and they make the decisions, councils aren't some theoretical body) it won't be a vote winner to suggest a row of portaloos and campers blighting a local beauty spot!

youtube.com/watch?v=kRHtLAmM_tI&

Skip to about 2 minutes in for the best bit

Most campsites require you to pay for facilities which people in vans simply don't need and are therefore unwilling to pay for.

Space to sleep, toilets, water tap and an element of security are the main things you're buying. They seem the same whether in a tent or a van. 

I don't understand why some van owners (not all expect these to be paid for by someone else? 

well put Luke. I agree completely.

Where was this out of intrest?

Wouldn't it be nice also to be able to go out somewhere and be able to use the toilet if needed. I'm sure there used to be a solution to this, the term "public toilets" comes to mind but it's been such a long time since I've seen any I'm starting to forget.

I'm still trying to work out why van users are the only ones taking a dump anywhere, surely the non van users should be asking down the pharmacy for something to sort out their bowels, and how the bloke I saw half way up the north ridge of Tryfan got his van all the way up there so that he could justify taking a dump and leaving it with a load of wet wipes I don't know.

Back to reality, I'm quite certain that if you built composting toilets in a few select locations they'd be used by non-van owners a lot more than by van owners.

We could always consider the European approach of Aires but then I'm certain that the locals who make a load from campsites wouldn't want to encourage people to go elsewhere. And as I have mentioned on different threads, set up a system where only fully self contained (inc. toilet and waste water containment) can stay in places without facilities.

But many campsites provide far more than these basics. It is rare to find a campsite which just provides a toilet and a cold tap, which is clearly all that those happy camping or in a van roadside actually need or want.

People who stay in hotels, campsites, b&bs and holiday lets bring in money. Vanners using the 'contribution to local economy' argument to ask people to pay for free bogs for them really gets on my tits. The very next post on their twee pretentious insta page is invariably about how to avoid spending any money. Can't think why councils aren't catering for their every whim with open arms. 

Exactly what facilities do you need that I don't in my tent (I have a chemical toilet as well). Campsites are businesses and go for customers willing to pay for quality, if there was a market for skinflints then somebody would provide the solution. Why should local councils be involved?

Say that I am driving to Spain, with a car or van. Three options:

1) I do it in one (I have done that in the past).

2) I stop at a hotel or campsite.

3) I stop for a few hours out of the way.

I can quantify the cost of number 2. Quantify the difference in cost between 1 and 3, and I'm interested to know who bears that alleged cost.

I can't remember, I'm afraid. But it was discussed on here at the time. You could probably find it if you use the search.

The issue with campsites is one of scheduling. You have to plan on going, book, get there before the last check-in time, etc. I use campsites, both with the van and the car that I had before that. Some of them operate on a turn up whenever and pay in the morning basis, and that works well. The ones that don't aren't suitable for a lifestyle that involves working long hours, eventually leaving work late and chasing the weather to unwind for the weekend.

None. Not even the bit of grass you put your tent on.

Well yes, that is the problem.

My point is that there is a market. It seems to be catered for in some countries, but not in the UK.

There was something in the news about car tyres being slashed in Hayfield.

That's progressive for the UK! And good to hear. In the Highlands this year the council have spent a lot of money putting signs in all carparks detailing the full bylaws, massive signs! Which states no over night stays! They are also talking about the odd 'aire', but obviously there's no joined up plan, or much action on this... Guess we'll roll into holiday season 2021 with no real changes... maybe some public toilets will re-open..

There were some up here in the Highlands too

I think it's said elsewhere in this thread but we just need Aire's/more basic facilities in the UK. I'm in the Highlands and see some/many of the issues that get people annoyed about, including me sometimes... But up here there aren't even many campsites, and pretty much no public toilets etc. (that's an exaggeration, but it's embarrassing how few). There doesn't seem any interest in tackling it if I'm honest. The councils/government want everyones money and are happy with all the AirBNB's etc but just ignore the reality of what's happening.. head in sand I think 

Why don’t you just use a campsite and pay like everybody else . Why should camper van owners have free facilities? 

What about toilets ? The op was asking for porterloos ! 

I think what the OP is suggesting (portaloo and a tap) is just what there is probably a market for. I don't necessarily agree that it should be free though (unless it was seen as worth providing free to attract users who might otherwise contribute to the local economy).

I'm not necessarily in favour of providing free facilities, but I do often prefer just parking my van up somewhere quiet over finding a campsite, and it's rarely about money.

1. There just aren't that many campsites in some places. Sometimes they're all booked up. Sometimes the nearest campsite requires a long drive from where I'm climbing.

2. Campsites normally require a level of pre-planning that isn't always compatible with a "plan" based on following the good weather forecast day by day.

If I'm arriving in Pembroke late at night, I know I can just drive into Simon's field and give him a few quid in the morning so that's what I do. Most places don't have anywhere like that.

That's changed, maybe a few years back down this way. The pop up site, basically a farmers field is now pretty commonplace.  I counted 4 near the coast just between lands end and St Ives this summer. The rule change to allowing 56 days instead of 28 per year without needing planning should be made permanent. 

Loads of custom around for the normal sites, most of which were maxed out right through the whole summer. 

The pop up ones had a tap and a tardis.  That's all. Cost between £10 and £19 per night depending on proximity to pub! We have a loo for the van so didn't need to use the facilities but were happy to pay to have a stress free night, avoiding any chance of p*ssing the locals off.

This summer will be even more of a challenge if people continue to think that freedom means they can camp up wherever they like.

Bloody hell! That's taking the piss. I would bitterly resent paying £19 for any campsite (actually I don't think I've ever been to one that expensive). I was thinking of a fiver max. What do the posh campsites cost down there FFS?

The problem is that a lot of vanlifers ( as opposed to campervan/ motorhome owners) object to paying for sleeping out on principle. They see stealth camping as a way to give it to the man/ not show subservience to the capitalist landowners/ be a free off the grid agent. 

Until the weekend / holiday is over, then they become 9-5 ants in the great machine but, hey, they had a few days away and didn't pay anyone so it was a cool message to give out on social media.

Provided that some spaces are marked out for no overnight parking, and enforcement is in place to ensure that people only use the spaces made available for the purpose for overnight parking of campervans (so spaces are available to day visitors too), I have no particular issue with this.

I thought it was the case in Betws y Coed car park but apparently overnight occupation isn't allowed.

We could do with more public toilets, so basic toilet facilities would be helpful for everyone.

Pay and display?

2m height barriers are an effing nuisance if you own a vehicle like a Land Rover or something high with a roof rack, so are a very poor solution for "outdoors" type places.

For comparisons, I just looked into my Camperstop Europe book. For those who aren’t familiar with this bible, it lists the places where people with vans are welcomed to stay overnight. Most of these camperstops have WCs and water. Taking a double page at random (in this case, in the Germany section), the prices ranged as follows:

12 x Free (of these 4 have WCs)

1 x 2.50 euros

1 x 4 euros

4 x 5 euros

1 x 6 euros

1 x 6.50 euros

1 x 7.50 euros

5 x 8 euros

2 x 10 euros

And as far as countries go:

Germany has 2940

France  has 3105

…and the UK just 147

Presumably this caricature is based on your observations of people using hashtags on social media, which probably isn't very reflective of most van owners. Certainly all the van owners I know appreciate the freedom it offers only in a very simple pragmatic sense rather than some kind of misguided philosophy of "sticking it to the man".

You are confused. Very very confused.

I assumed he was talking about Cornwall honeypots in the summer tourist season, so I guess it's the law of supply and demand in action.

I must admit we couldn't bring ourselves to pay £19.

Best one, by far was actually on Lizard, about 1mile from Lizard Town. Charge was a tenner,  which we were happy to pay, but the lovely but totally bonkers lady running it seemed to be charging anyone who's van looked tired a bit less. She said it had been a tough year and some people were really struggling so a tenner seemed too much to charge them! This world would be a better place if there were more like her. A tenner is perfectly ok and sorry,  but I think a ban on lay by parking is probably less than a couple of years away now.

Proper sites, are you sitting down.....

Well we have just looked for a site for next Saturday night down west.  All the ones we hoped would be open are closed,  so there is just one option and inc the dog its.....£45 per night!!!

Dont care how warm the underfloor heating in the kaze is....no way! We will be having a surf and then heading home. 

Normal sites in summer,  maybe £30 a night? But you have to book.

Re the toilet situation. 90%* of vans HAVE a toilet!!

* I made that up but it’s not far off.

There are plenty that are close to that (plus showers), e.g. the two "Gwern Gofs" on the A5.

So, what is the actual objection to using a campsite. Maybe I'll be less confused if I get a straight answer.

How many people is that?

You did get an answer. Several, by multiple posters. Even if you had not, this frankly moronic diatribe would have made about as little sense as it made now anyway. "Give it to the man", "social media", really? On top of everything else, in a community where people have been doing this for decades?

Are you talking about the climbing community or the travelling community?

If the answers are all about expense, my advice would be to people to research fees before they make the step of buying a camper. If it seems a bit pricey, find a different means of stopping overnight. Tents are usually cheaper unless they are complete monsters.

The Almscliff turd thing was a joke

Several people have already given reasons why they don't always find campsites as obvious a solution as you would think, and it's not all about expense. Here's my own contribution above: https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/destinations/a_solution_for_van_intoleran...

Varies but peak season that's probably 2, with dog and hook up. Cheapest proper site will be around £25 if it's a bit further from the coast. 

Your fiver a night isn't realistic in these days I don't think. Tenner,  yes, and as it costs over a fiver to park near any town or beach.

For the tenner we can arrive at midday,  and camp where we like in a huge field. Maybe walk the coast path, have a bbq watching the sunset into the sea, walk to the pub, then lie in until 1000 the following day if we have no plans. Good value.

Simon's field in Pembroke and Gwern Gof Uchaf below Tryfan are still on the order of a fiver a night for a single person.

Edit: Though I don't disagree with your point that a tenner would still represent very good value for most campsites.

Nice!!

Layby stopovers shouldn't be a problem if you stand by the adage of " if there are lorries parked there, it's ok for you to sleep there".  Assuming non anti social hygiene practices are followed.

But I doubt those laybys will be good enough for the  glass-of-wine-while-watching-the-sunset-from-a-clifftop experience people are yearning for having looked at the ads in the magazines. 

Well, yes, anyone who thinks magazine adverts or Instagram 'influencer' shots reflect reality is clearly an idiot. I don't think that's ever been in doubt.

Both the camping club and caravan club have long lists of certificates sites that are smaller, basic and cheap.

You have to be a member (membership in one gives reciprocal rights to use sites in the other though I think) 

I’m between vans but used to use loads and a fiver a night for two of us and a dog was fairly standard even a couple of years ago, usually just a field with a Water tap and a waste point but if that’s all you need can’t really go wrong.

some might resent even a fiver but always thought it was good value, saves a lot of hassle and much nicer than either a £20 a night site where you get judged on how straight you have parked in the row or wondering if you are going to get moved on / robbed / fined.

would recommend checking them out for anyone spending more than a couple of weeks in a van a year you can save the cost of membership fairly quickly.

The CCC Certificated sites are a great idea( being  an example of the smaller basic ones you are referring to) but a large number seem to  insist that your unit is self contained and that your hygiene arrangements are all taken care of onboard.

As the owner of a camper and a winter visitor to the Highlands, you may be surprised to know that there are only a handful of sites open anyway during the winter months.  

One of the  best places I stayed was in a highland town, in a  public carpark with no restrictions on overnight occupation and excellent toilets within the car park..

Which is probably great, if that's what you want to do. But it's less good if you just want to rock up late on a Friday night and pay in the morning, climb all day Sat, sleep there on Saturday night then get the tent down early doors on Sunday and the only facilities you'll use are some bogroll and a few litres of water. And unfortunately there are fewer and fewer of those sorts of sites. Wales is definitely the best for them, though there's an excellent cheap site on the outskirts of Bude that is my go to for the Culm.

It's not much of a 'market' if, in the OPs case, the expectation is that it's provided to the end users for free.

But I accept that you mean 'demand.' The question is who pays for any such facilities.

Sorry but no, read up thread. My original point is that there are far more of these pop up sites than there used to be. The post you replied to was around how you you could get more for your tenner if you wanted to.

We sometimes do get in late and the farmer etc is around in the morning if you want to minimise the stay. I stayed in the Bude one last year. Lovely. 

Cheap very basic sites are the answer.  The way NZ controls this works, mostly, as we found in a van trip down there a couple of years ago. The UK needs to learn from that.

Here, we very much live in a holiday area.  Probably accommodation for 5000 to 10000 people within 5 miles of us in the summer? Last year was silly at times with vans overnighting in passing places on lanes. Our village has a small carpark on the estuary front. No campers allowed says the totally ignored sign. It was full most nights in August.  Do I really want to have to  walk the dog past some bloke stood next to his van in his boxers scratching his b*llocks first thing in the morning,  well not really to be honest. 

No, I meant a market. I think people would be happy to pay a very basic price for very basic facilities.

You have a van that sits in low geostationary orbit and doesn't require an area of land or hardstanding to be provided for you to park on?

Awesome 

I get the impression that the OP is expecting such facilities to be provided for free.

(Edit: not just my impression. In fact, that's exactly what he/she has written.)

However, if there truly is a viable market, capitalism will probably find a way.

That was the point I was making..? There might be more pop up sites but if they're charging a tenner a night each then they're taking the piss, and they're increasing whilst the billy basic sites are on the decline. I don't want to get more for my tenner - I just want somewhere cheap to stick my tent while I go climbing.

Up until this year you could overnight in the Betws car park but alas no more.

Probably nothing to do with the guy who set up his caravan and lived there for weeks on end.

Ah, that'd explain why I thought you could.

That could easily have been solved, surely, by putting "max stay 1 week, no return within 1 month" or something on that part of the car park, then stuck a load of tickets on.

I was assuming the person I was replying to had a car as well as a tent.

Anyway, I don't have a van; my low profile roadside dossing mostly involves sleeping in the back of my car.

Yes, and I disagreed with him in one of my posts.

Yes, that would have been a much better solution than banning all motorhomes.

Maybe I’m blaming the guy for something that the council had planned anyway although it was a nice little earner for them.

Have they actually banned motorhomes, or just banned overnight sleeping in vehicles?  The former would be stupid in a tourist area's main car park (which means it'd be something a Council would do).

So you think a tenner is too much to pay? Sorry,  I misunderstood. 

And also I misunderstood what we were talking about.  Fiver for a tent, yes, fair enough. I can think of a couple of sites like that.  I meant a tenner for a van, with two people and a doggy, which I think is a fair price.

Most of the "fiver a night" type campsites are a fiver per person per night, so a tenner for 2 people in a van seems perfectly reasonable.  (I don't see any particular reason a van should cost more than a tent).

It’s a ban on overnight stays as far as I can remember.

I think motorhomes can still stay during the day.

Portapotty- why not?

If people can afford the van, the fuel and the gear, they can stretch to personal toilet facilities. 

Some people seem to be following the Roma ethic of mochadi without having the cultural background as an excuse/justification.

People suggesting paying a small fee for some of these facilities clearly don't know their audience. If there was a fully facilitated overnight car park that cost 10p to stay in, it would be completely empty and every layby within 5 miles of it would be rammed with vans using those facilities.

There is a proud frugality to it, popularised by the dirtbag culture that has been glamorised by climbing films in recent years. There's all these polished movies coming out about people living in their vans in The US and Europe, eating out of dustbins, being chased by park wardens, and people see that and want to emulate it.

Post a pair of trashed size 13 climbing shoes for free on a climbing Facebook group and see how long it lasts and how many messages you get from people wanting something for nothing. If you're ever looking to get rid of something, I'd highly recommend it.

Also as a side, it's weird that people are chatting like the crags on the continent aren't covered in human faeces. 

Yes, that is a problem.  Not sure how we solve it other than enforcement of "no overnight occupation of vehicles" in car parks where it would cause an issue.  (I mentioned upthread that lorry drivers often park up in laybys on the A5 in Northants which I doubt bothers anyone, but that isn't exactly an AONB).

I've long wondered why the US has a strong culture of "pack it out" for human solid waste and we (and other Europeans) don't.  With regard to camper vans that is certainly a greater issue, but why would you not have some sort of facility in or with your van (with a smaller van you might want an outside toilet tent or something - but even the smallest touring caravans have a very small "smallest room")?  It's not like squatting behind a bush in the p*ssing rain is exactly pleasant.

climber are notoriously tight fisted anyway. I happily pay at Bowles Rocks £5 to get away from the hordes of London climbers who prefer Harrison's or in-fact just about anywhere that doesn't charge for the privilege of climbing. (And before anyone goes ballistic about pricing the countryside the money goes to provide outdoor training to kids who wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity).

Never the less it does make me wonder what right the locals have to monetise the presence of beauty and crags in their locality. They get to enjoy that beauty every day for free. Why should I have to pay to use it once a month? they don't own the crags anymore than I do.

The crux of the issue

Because people need to make money somehow in rural areas. If the environment isn't exploited through tourism then it will be by other avenues.

Pragmatically demanding that everyone subsidises your hobby has certainly made me feel more tolerant.

£15000a year is the typical cost for a parish council in Cornwall for toilet facilities. 

Because it’s legally enforced in the USA?

No one's saying you can't use the crag. They're saying they're not going to build you a free shitter so you can park for free, sleep for free, leave your litter in their council bins for free, take up a parking space that a grockel on a full price holiday could have used, then listen while you pretend you've contributed to their economy. 

Try pitching a tent in a layby and complaining about lack of toilets, then let me know how welcome you are. 

Then try and find a car park that'll keep you stay for 12 hours for less than a fiver, let alone a campsite.

Seems an appropriate time to say a big thanks to the #vanwankers for their great work at bus stop this year. Looking forward to more of the same in 2021. St govans next?

I know there are plenty responsible van owners out there. Nothing against them before you all start. But they weren't the ones that ruined it so point stands. 

You might be on to something here. You should reach out to some like minded people and maybe get together and set up like a nationwide network of places you can park your vans with basic facilities. Maybe charge a nominal fee for membership to help cover costs. Set up a website listing all the places you can park up for the night without fear of being moved on. Maybe you could let caravans stay too to bring in a bit more cash on the side. You'd need a catchy name..... Something that sounds like a club for people who have campers and caravans.... Have a think on it.

Drove past 10 or so Van's on my daily 15 minute commute from just outside the national park into work this morning. With the weather being disgusting numbers were down on the usual weekend numbers. Nearby one of the parked vans a young lady in pyjamas was climbing over a farmer's drystone wall to I assume go to the toilet. Unfortunately even if only a small number are doing such thing (and I personally think its actually a majority given the number of people I know with a van I think only one with a larger purpose built camper has any toilet facilities) the numbers of people doing this regularly is likely unsustainable. Sadly a hashtag for climbing over walls and shitting in a field hasn't caught on yet.

#shitineverylayby

This is true.  One thing I've noticed is a rather different culture between climbers and cavers, where it's usual for the latter to negotiate paying a small access fee (a couple of quid usually) to caves on peoples' land, whereas climbers resolutely won't.

I'm not entirely sure why that tightness is considered a virtue.  Sure, there are those who can't afford much, but camper vans aren't exactly cheap either, even DIY conversions.  So unless you actually live in one (i.e. are homeless[1]) you're paying a fair whack to have it, insure it and drive it anyway, so a little extra to park it in a place with facilities sounds reasonable.

[1] Does anyone actually offer motor insurance policies for people of no fixed abode, or are all the people who do live in camper vans actually just giving a fake address of friends or family, and thus are breaching the terms of their policy and so effectively uninsured anyway?

#sprinturds? #transhits? #VWtranspooter?

Does anyone happen to remember the old Bas Cuvier bivvy site? Probably not or this thread would have been nailed shut ages ago. 

I suppose they do have more park rangers, but it would rely on being caught, which it does here too (it would be prosecuted as indecent exposure if you were actually caught doing it, which is not one you want on your record as it would bar you from all sorts of lines of work as it's a sexual offence).  But that, I suppose, is the same offence whether you carry it out or not.

To be fair, it'd be less of an issue if people would carry a trowel and bury it properly rather than just leaving turds and bog roll everywhere.

Just because there's no toilet in the van doesn't mean everyone's shitting in the fields.

#shittinginabag

Plenty are though. Go for a walk across the road from the Bosigran parking spot. F**ing grim. 

I assume it's the same kind of problem as the turds that litter Euro sport crags: A minority of people doing it, but sufficient traffic to get a large turdy build-up. 

Yeah, it is. You can't blame the van; there's no illusion here that it's anything but dickheads to blame. It just seems that a van is one of the more powerful tools that a dickhead can employ in their mission to ruin things for everyone else. 

Not to mention toilets in supermarkets, pubs and the increasingly rare public facilities. I've had a lot of nights out in a toilet-less van without ever leaving a turd lying around in a field. I'm quite happy to condemn the dickheads who don't make that effort, but I resent being grouped in with them just because I happen to drive the same vehicle. It's the kind of lazy grouping I expect from the Daily Mail.

But just parking “The van up “is what creates problems, I live in North wales and the situation was horrendous with vans parked up in lay-bys . I don’t disagree or think vans should be outlawed. I just think van users should use camp sites . 
 

I have seen first hand the mess left by a lay bye full of camper vans . 

I agree to some extent ; but I think where a group of vans park up they tend to leave lots of mess. At least that was the case in the summer in north wales , where I live. We were over run with vans . 

Yes, there's a lot of stereotyping about these days.

Selectively tight fisted - happy to spend hundreds of pounds on gear / petrol...

On the subject of the bos parking spot the #vanshitters often park sideways taking up about 4 spaces....do i say anything to them ...of course not im british i tut and post on ukc after the event.

Carefully selective in what we choose to spend our money on. I am frugal (tight fisted if you insist) in quite a number of ways, including reluctance to spend money on campsites and, in fact, gear, so that I have the money to go on lots of great climbing trips. 

It only takes a moment's thought to see that the argument that "You can afford A, therefore you can afford B too" is nonsense. 

Though it is unreasonable to expect others to fund discretionary leisure activities.  Which includes providing free provision for the parking of motorhomes and the emptying of their occupants (!) when those wishing to do so in a tent (a much cheaper form of accommodation) largely have to pay for such provision.

Not sure i was making that or indeed any argument.  You appear to be agreeing that you are selectively frugal...nothing wrong with that of course😀

..

Definitely quoting this next time you're bitching about MPs getting a free lunch or whatever

Nobody else funds my leisure activities.

I think at the heart of the issue is the fact that those who have invested in a van feel they have already paid for their accomodation (they are right). The problem is the number of vans, not the principle of investing in the self-sufficiency of a van. 

What on earth are you on about?

No, they aren't. If I've invested in a tent, I have not paid for my accommodation. If I put cardboard wheels and paint a windscreen on it, I still have not paid for my accommodation. If I buy a caravan, I have not paid for my accommodation. Spending a ton of money on a van does not entitle you to free accommodation.

Yes it does as long as it is legal to park it somewhere for free and sleep in it.  Same goes for a tent.

They have paid for their accommodation, but not for their overnight parking and facilities, for which there is an additional charge which covers their provision and the rental of a piece of land on which to park it.

It is literally no different from a tent, or a touring caravan.  Mostly, unless you're going to use it to kip in your back garden, you have to pay for a pitch.  It might be that a simpler pitch will do because you carry a water supply and a toilet facility, but if you don't you need those same facilities as someone in a tent would need, and they're not free.

For which there might or might not be an additional charge.

This attitude is what we need to file under the heading "This is why", for in a couple years time when people are asking why vans are banned everywhere. Things only go one way from here. It's just. So. Predictable.

Fair point, as things stand.  But it will trend towards there always being one for three reasons; one, disruption caused to local inhabitants by van users (not a problem, as I mentioned, on a random layby on the A5 in Northamptonshire away from any housing, say, but certainly a problem if you parked it on my street*); two, disruption caused by that parking not being available to day-trippers in tourist areas who are contributing, unlike van users, to the local tourist economy; and three, because with modern ANPR tech it'd be dead easy for the National Park Authorities (where the problem is greatest) to simply impose a blanket (and high) charge for occupied overnight parking on any land they own very quickly indeed, and if it gets worse then I'd expect they will do just that.

I think I'd very much use the "tent rule" here.  If it would be OK (if a bit odd), legally and morally, for me to park my car in whatever facility you're talking about and pitch my tent next to it, then fine, go ahead.  If that wouldn't be OK, then a van isn't either.

I do think there should be more and better time-limited overnight van parking facilities with basic services provided (i.e. a tap and an emptying facility for toilets), away from residential areas and similar; I was disappointed, even though I don't own a van, that Betws y Coed car park no longer does.  However, because providing this land and these facilities incurs a cost, the van owner should cover that cost.

* I don't subscribe to the view that owning a house entitles you to exclusive parking on the street outside it, however I do take the view that occupying a vehicle overnight in a residential area, other than in mitigating circumstances like having to kip in the car because you've locked yourself out of your house and can't get a locksmith until tomorrow, is completely unacceptable.  And this includes parking facilities in residential areas, like some of the ones on Portland, particularly e.g. the one in Weston because it is literally right next to housing.  It's not like wild camping, because if you're wild camping, if you get caught you are doing it wrong.

That's unfair.  As long as the van is parked legally and considerately he's quite right. 

The problems with van "wild" camping have nothing to do with sleeping in the van, they stem entirely from what a small (but unfortunately very visible) minority of people do while they're awake.

Well make up your mind! Do you want free overnight parking to be banned or not?

I am simply stating the fact that it is currently legal to park a van in lots of places for the night. I do, however, think that regulation, at least in some areas some of the time, is probably necessary, not because of "this attitude" but simply because, as I said, the problem of there being too many vans for free overnight parking to be sustainable.

No, I don't want parking banned. Don't think I've been ambiguous about that. But it will be if the prevailing attitude of the visible vans is "I'm allowed, it's legal, f*ck you". And so it will be. 

The responsible ones who probably are the majority don't count in the reckoning because, by definition, they're close to invisible because they don't want to piss anyone off, so nobody sees them being contrite and considerate. 

Well in that case we agree in principle. But as I said I think the sheer number of vans in some places at some times makes their low profile considerate use collectively impossible. I try to avoid going to such places at such times because I don't want to be part of the problem. Not that I have a van - I doss in my car and occasionally put up a tent.

Yeah I think we agree on that part. I've thought about a van quite a bit. Seems like a great idea. But not now. They're already as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit because of the dickheads* that have gone before and won't be any use nor value in a couple years. Been saddened by what I've seen in the last half decade and the writing's on the wall now. 

* Percentage remember. Again, not calling you all dickheads. 

But you're talking as if the mess necessarily follows. I completely despise the van campers who leave a mess behind when they leave, just as I despise any climber, tent camper, walker, drinker, unicyclist... whoever that does the same. If I've parked somewhere, I absolutely assure you that I'll leave no trace behind and I don't know anyone with a van who would be any different. I'm not saying those irresponsible van owners don't exist, I'm just saying they don't represent all of us. As for taking up parking, my van's a Ford Transit Connect, so it's taking up no more space than an estate car.

The bit that boils my piss, as I alluded to earlier, is the expectation that some idyllic destination will welcome, or be grateful for, or make provision for, or even accept visitors who have shown their hand and made it clear they don't intend to spend anything. The OP is (potentially?) nursing this bullshit belief that all tourists bring benefits and should be rewarded and thanked for turning up. But he is definitely not who they had in mind when they made the TV ad. I struggle to understand how you can convince yourself you've made an economic contribution if you haven't visited any shop, cafe, pub or establishment that has a flush toilet. 

I intend my next "car" to be a small van - just something a bit less faff to sleep and cook in than the back of my current car. But then I am in Scotland where I still feel ok about low-profile roadside dossing in many areas much of the time. I might feel differently if I lived in England (so I'm glad I don't!).

It's only when I travel to nice bits of Wales that it makes me sad. 

The NC500 in July and August makes me very sad. I think the visual intrusiveness of rows of motorhomes is the main problem. 

It's one of the problems. Many others have been mentioned already. The piles of shit and litter aren't doing any favours. 

The NC500 should have proper overnight parking places for them provided and "municipal" bog-emptying facilities, but equally they should not be free of charge.

If you (generic) want to wild camp, put your tent on your back and walk into the wilderness, as I mentioned above if you get caught you're doing it wrong, so the rules on it don't matter (and it's allowed in Scotland anyway).  Otherwise pay for a proper place to park and sleep overnight.

See, I think this shows an unpleasant level of entitlement from the other perspective. If you live in North Wales or the Lakes or somewhere else scenic and beautiful, that doesn't give you right of refusal on who gets to visit or how much they have to spend to be allowed in. I'm not sure whether you, personally, really intended the part I've bolded the way it came across to me, but I do get the impression that a substantial number of people in such places really do believe that they have, or should have, some kind of ownership and veto over who's allowed in under what conditions.

And in any case, I think the people in this position of spending no money at all in an area are a pretty rare minority. You have to plan pretty carefully and be pretty dedicated to avoiding temptation to go on holiday to an area and not end up in a few cafes, pubs or shops.

What if I drive my (small) van to Scotland, park somewhere out of the way for a couple of nights, put my tent on my back and walk into the wilderness? That's presumably okay with you, even if the spot I park doesn't happen to charge?

What extra impact or offence would I have caused if I'd just stayed in my van one of those nights? I'm not the kind of dickhead that leaves anything behind either way. If you saw my parked van as you drove past, you wouldn't actually be able to see whether I was in it or in my tent ten miles away.

Yet somehow one of those is fine and the other not? If anything, the tent option leaves my van unmoving in one spot for longer.

You've got a good point, but for two issues;

1. The volume of vans that you get in many places (particularly northern Scotland).  Wild camping will never be a majority pursuit (most people are neither fit enough to carry full kit up a mountain nor particularly interested in it), whereas camper-van driving is heading that way.  Where wild camping *was* becoming a problem it got banned, i.e. Loch Lomond.  That is likely to end up happening with vans.

2. Unfortunately, as with many things (cycling is a classic) the very visible bad guys make it hard for the good guys because it's hard to differentiate.

No, they don't own the countryside. But they've literally nothing to gain by building the OP a toilet block.

I'd have thought so too, yet every few months we get a thread demanding rural councils supply free bogs for people dossing in vans and trying to argue that it's in their interests to do so. 

I think it very easy to do for a weekending climber or walker though. 

I wouldn't argue that it should by any means generally be the case, but it might make sense in some places where such a welcoming gesture might bring economic benefits, such as on the edge of a town with cafes and so on. Possibly some places on the NC500. Am I not right in thinking that it wokrs like this in some places on the continent (if not free then at least at a nominal cost)?

This is exactly my point above. This is what boils my piss. What's the economic benefit? Those 'cafes and so on' have toilets. If you're bringing any economic benefit, pause to curl one out at the same time. 

On the grounds that quite a few van owners are also dog owners I can't believe that many of them are doing this or we'd have seen the evidence.

#hangingitinatree

Increased clientele at cafes and so on.

Did you even read the last sentence?

Yes. I'm really struggling to see exactly what is boiling your piss now.

Anyway, bowels don't keep to cafe opening hours.

Said it three times now: > I struggle to understand how you can convince yourself you've made an economic contribution if you haven't visited any shop, cafe, pub or establishment that has a flush toilet.

And if it's "I'm making a contribution to the local economy by having one cup of tea in a cafe once so they should build and maintain for me a free campsite out of their own pocket because I didn't happen to need a shit when I was having my cup of tea"

Then yeah, of course, would you like a red carpet with that?

For the record I don't have a van, but like Robert do travel around Scotland. 

Since when did it become an unwritten rule that you have to 'contribute' to visit somewhere in your own country, at what point are you no longer 'local' and need to open ones wallet before 'you may pass'?

Where do we draw the line in your 'must contribute world', can land-owners build a few paths and exclude hill-walkers and climbers whom don't pay for access.  Can public car parks be operated on a basis that those whom economically contribute most get first dib's which is the logical conclusion (which has actually happened to half a public car park on Lomondside where a business persuaded LLTNP to sign over on the basis of the economic benefit; See Parkwatch Scotland), and will result in economic exclusion of locals and others alike. People who bang the 'economic drum' need to think where it may progress too.

Since when did locals not want working PC's.  I know many people in the Highlands whom are very annoyed at the central Scottish Government underfunding to Local Authority, and subsequent use of PC's as a political football as the expression of that underfunding.  While your young and fit getting from Skye to Inverness, or from Scourie, or Brora may not require a stop.  You try doing that with a car full of kids, or old, or on the way to a hospital appointment.  Then finding the remaining PC is blocked by some Motorhomer who's poured their cassette down the flusher...then detouring to find the next PC has the same problem (as happen to me once).

What locals want is facilities that help them as much as the visitors, and visitors to behaviour responsibly.  If visitors want to spend money and locals have the offerings they want great.  How to fund and regulate the facilities is the contentious issue... .... at present their is resentment that Parks and scenic areas are seen as 'sinks' which can absorb ever increasing visits, and be continually promoted, for the economic benefit of the nation, yet respective governments of all levels and colours have to be dragged kicking and screaming to understand their failings, and when they are they commonly blame 'the other lot' be that the other government (e.g. the Council and the SNP government spat over Arisaig), the other party, or the visitors.

.....but please don't suggest that only those that pay/economically contribute have the right to be somewhere.

I don't think I'd say a nominal cost, but I wouldn't object to such provision being made with the charges set to cover the cost of providing it.  Indeed, I'd be very much in favour.  Though it might have to come with restrictions on parking to sleep elsewhere, otherwise you just end up with the same situation you get with a pay and display car park in a town with an unrestricted residential street next to it - everyone just parks in the street.

Obviously if I don't spend any money I havn't made an economic contribution. What is your point? And are you saying that I havn't made an economic contribution if I spend £500 on NC500 tat in a shop which doesn't happen to have a flush toilet? Sorry, you have completely lost me now.

Sorry, yes, I think that is really what I meant in probbaly most cases, but I can see free provision working to everyone's benefit in some places.

Of course. I think that there has to be a balance between provision of facilities and restrictions. As I said, it might only work to everyone's advantage in certain places, but the fact is that the number of vans is creating issues which need addressing and it is going to become increasingly pressing to come up with models which might address them.

I didn't. Read the f*cking words. What I have said, for the fourth time now, is that asking for free toilets to be installed so that you can visit for free is not compatible with the argument that visiting brings economic benefits. 

Are you a different person every time? How are you still not getting this?

Because you are making no sense. 

A small van takes up the same space as an estate car, a longer van a little bit more. A great many people park their vehicle on the street every night, some households park 2 or 3. Whether someone is asleep inside it out not, makes no difference to the space that the vehicle takes up.

Most of us also pay for access to the water and sewerage systems.

I don't understand why you think we should pay extra to be able to access these things through more than one access point?

The main cost of the system is surely in maintaining the works, not adding a tap here and there.

It doesn't, but it *is* different.  Would you be OK with a row of camper vans (or even estate cars) parked up your residential street with people sleeping in each?  I can't see that you would.  I wouldn't.  If you would, you're likely an exception.

A fair idea but for the fashion element. The nc500 is currently in vogue, as is the van life concept. However by the time the infrastructure has gone through planning and is installed, fashions may have changed and the return on investment never achieved. 

As long as you have a policy that covers being away from home for 365 days of the year, and you are travelling, not squatting somewhere 365 days a year, then you are insured.

One "traditional" method for the travelling community is for many families to chip in together for a small plot of land, which is everyone's home but nobody stops there.

Parking up to rest is what lay-bys are designed for. 

I park the van up, and when I leave there's no trace that I've been there beyond the tyre tracks and perhaps a small patch of disturbed dirt where a hole has been dug.

I don't hear anyone shouting that lorries should be banned from parking up overnight. Why is it that I should go and pay for less useful facilities, just because of the vehicle that I drive?

Not all van users have your high standards, this and the recent increase in numbers have caused the problem. 

It is wrong to compare business and leisure use as you have. One is more essential than the other. Wagon drivers rest then move on. Leisure vans can occupy lay bys, car parks or pull ins for several days. 

Wagon drivers are also stone deaf, they must be given some of the laybys they use to rest. 

As I said up thread, this will calm eventually when it falls out of fashion.

Assuming they were being respectful of the need for room for residential parking, and were keeping themselves contained within the van, not setting out tables and chairs, etc. why not? 

What would the detriment to me be?

I might be an exception in the UK, but possibly not in other parts of the world. I've always found people in France and Spain to have a very different attitude to the UK.

I remember pulling into a little seaside town just north of Valencia a couple of years back, late at night and tired. I parked in a residential street by the beach and had a long lie, so when I did get up, I thought I should say hello to the Spanish chap in his front garden with his dog. I wanted to let him know I wasn't going to just park up in the street, and would find somewhere a bit more discrete after breakfast.

His response was to tell me to not be silly, I could park there as long as I liked, point out that there was a police station at the end of the street making it a safe space to park, and say that if they did happen to ask me what I was doing there, I should just tell them I was there on holiday and all would be well.

I think that's a perfectly sensible live-and-let-live attitude, that we could do with moving towards in the UK.

Also, wagon drivers don't park up in residential areas, they park in industrial estates and laybys on ugly main roads where nobody really cares.  Nobody would care if you parked up in a random layby on the A5 in Northamptonshire, for example.  But they might if a wagon driver parked up in a viewpoint for a significant period.

Actually, people may or may not know that on-road parking of commercial vehicles overnight in large zones of the country (primarily the big cities[1]) is prohibited anyway, and this is enforced.  It doesn't extend to < 3500kg camper vans, though (it probably does to heavier ones, as they are Class C or C1 and thus legally commercial regardless of how you use them).

[1] I only found this out because a friend, when I was a student, got a ticket for parking the Student Union minibus outside his house overnight in Manchester.  The ban is signposted on the boundaries but until I found out about this I never noticed the signs!

I don't.  I don't want a load of extra people parking up in my (non-tourist-area) street and doubling the load on the local services, and potentially openly urinating and defecating too.

Better that we provide a nonprofit "camping municipale" equivalent (or smaller individual facilities) if the commercial operators aren't providing what is needed, and mandate their use for sleeping overnight in tents or vehicles.

(I don't know if it takes vans, if not it probably could do with doing, but North Lees campsite is a great example of what I mean - basic facilities at a price that basically just covers costs)

North Lees is such an example and provides a holiday possibility that  low income families can afford.

Not at all suitable for climbers trying to pitch up late on Friday night after a long drive.

The gate is locked.

Vans parking up doesn't double the load on local services. You produce nothing like the same level of waste as a household, and there simply isn't enough people who would want to spend a significant portion of their life doing it.

There is a real problem for people on the NC500, and they have to figure out what to do about that, but for most people the right to park up and rest isn't going to affect them personally, beyond perhaps a feeling of "I'm paying for this view, someone else shouldn't be getting it for free"

I see this more as the same sort of attitude that lead to brexit. An Englishman's home is his castle, and he should have a right to decide who gets to park outside the moat. Instead of thinking about the freedoms we could all be afforded, people just want to restrict others.

I suppose the conflict there is that if people arrive and pitch up at say 2am then it disrupts the sleep of others on the campsite.  Almost all campsites have a "late arrivals pitch up away from everyone else" type rule, but North Lees doesn't have room for a late arrivals area.  So in that case you are probably going to have to drive up early Saturday morning instead.  Which if you're on a budget has the added bonus of saving you a night's camp fees.

What is a bit poor is that the North Lees website doesn't mention a latest arrival time.

Rubbish (!)

One person in a van produces the same amount of rubbish (and bodily excretions) as one person in a house.

I don't agree with that at all; a public road should be free for anyone (or no-one, if it causes a safety issue) to park unoccupied vehicles on, so far as feasible.  (There always will be a few exceptions where resident permits make sense e.g. right next to London commuter railway stations; making the parking free doesn't make sense there because they want to encourage you to walk or cycle to the station, not drive).

However, this is talking about parking small, unoccupied vehicles.  Even large camper vans (the >3500kg type) block the sun from someone's window if parked outside their house.  Obviously a small VW doesn't, but I'm talking the big stuff.  Hence the restricted zone I mentioned above in Manchester and other cities.  No doubt my mate got ticketed for the minibus because it got in a neighbour's way and they reported it!

That would work if people were considerate (e.g. by not parking camper vans in places that are inappropriate for that, e.g. residential streets or small laybys intended for short stops).

Because peoples' views conflict on what is reasonable (mine certainly does with yours; I'd happily wild camp on top of a mountain[1], but I wouldn't park my car in a layby and pitch a tent next to it)  we need a set of "ground rules".  I suspect the vast majority wouldn't think parking a camper van in a residential street and kipping in it to be even remotely reasonable.

[1] To reiterate - I don't care if wild camping is legal (Scotland) or trespass (England in most cases), because if you get caught you are doing it wrong - nobody should know you are, or were, there.  If they might, you've chosen the wrong place, the wrong tent or done something *really* inappropriate like lit a ground fire or crapped everywhere without either cutting the grass out and digging a hole for it or carrying it out, or stayed for several days, or not pitched late and struck early, or whatever.

Genuine question: Why? Obviously, if they litter, defecate, pull the awning out and have a picnic etc. I agree, but if someone is in a reasonably stealth vehicle with blacked out windows and the curtains drawn, provided they are not in your way, how would it be any different to any other vehicle without that someone inside? How would you even know, in fact?

Now, as a counterpoint of what local residents consider to be reasonable and what not, we rented the Gloucestershire mountaineering hut in Dinorwic a few years back. The hut instructions state that the access does not take minibuses, as it could damage the water main and to park on the street. I parked the minibus on the street, by the access road to the hut. An hour later, knock knock at the hut, a *very* angry lady was berating us for parking in *her* spot. Not asking us could we please move the bus (which of course we would and did), *telling* us. So a lot of this *does* to me seem to be a dislike of outsiders and tourists, we absolutely were paying to be there and were obviously fully prepared to be reasonable and were met with utter animosity.

Rubbish (!)

Have you ever lived in a van for an extended period?

I consume far less goods when I'm living in the van than when I'm living at home.

My food waste comes down to practically zero, I buy much more fresh, unpackaged foodstuffs, and dried bulk goods like flour instead of bread in plastic wrappers.

I stop buying consumer goods beyond replacing the odd rope and climbing shoes that have gone through their third or fourth resole. 

My water usage becomes meagre - the 9.5 litres that a standard toilet cistern will dump on every flush lasts me at least a couple of days for all purposes.

If you're saving your rubbish for the next time you come across a public facility to remove it, you tend to get much more careful about what you're producing than when you have a handy bin outside the door that will be taken away once a fortnight.

It's not that hard to find appropriate places to park in most places. Streets with large front gardens, houses with 8ft tall privet hedges, in front of shops, and town centre locations with wide streets and parking in the middle of the street are all examples of places you can park without blocking anyone's light.

My van is parked outside my house right now, and despite a small front garden, it's never going to be able to block any light, as the house across the road already does that.

On my travels I've found plenty of people who are happy for me to park up around their locality, and will come by for a blether. If you're not behaving anti-socially why should they care?

One of the advantages of parking up in this way is the way it allows you to interact with the locals, instead of just with other travelers on a campsite.

I love the opportunity to stick the kettle on and make a brew for a local dog walker in the morning, and shoot the shit. Generally that'll be with people who are retired, as they have the time to stop and talk. I daresay when I'm that age I'll be pleased to have strangers popping up on the neighborhood to stop and talk to too 😁

What about those with reasons not to be able to venture far from the beaten track? Should a night in nature be the preserve of those who are able bodied?

If like to think if I ever found myself in a wheelchair, I'd still be able to drive to an accessible quiet spot and have a night in a tent without having to share it with too many people in a commercial campsite.

You are fighting a good fight but you are never going to change some peoples here minds. On a past thread I posted about staying in a pub car-park, with agreement from the landlord. We ate and drank in the pub and they offered to leave the toilets open for us. We then went to a local cafe for breakfast. Still not good enough for some people! 

You choose that.  No reason you couldn't choose to do that in a house.  People perhaps should!

I suspect people would be more tolerant of a van parked in a beauty spot if it had a Blue Badge in the front window.  I certainly would.  That's your solution for that "use-case".  If it's just someone who is by their own choice of lifestyle too unfit or lazy to put a rucksack on and walk into the hills, tough.

I wouldn't however be tolerant of someone parking a van in a residential area to sleep in it.  That's non-negotiable for me - the only time it should be tolerated (and I mean tolerated, not accepted, we need to actually solve the homeless problem rather than ignoring it) is people who are genuinely homeless.  If you want to build another house in a residential area or execute a "change of use" on an existing one you have to get planning permission, after all, so the intended character of the area is not affected.

I don't care if you park in an out of the way, non-beauty-spot layby on a main road.  This is where you tend to find lorries parked and it's no different, really, to that.

Same with travellers as a lifestyle - random layby on main road in the middle of nowhere: don't care.  Village green: unacceptable.  I only don't like them pitching up in random backwaters of MK because they tend to leave litter and leave dogs running loose which are a problem to those using the Redway network, particularly cyclists, as they tend to chase; if they complied with the Country Code and kept the dogs on leads (or fenced around them with temporary fencing) I'd not care about them being in random locations, but again, the village green is not OK, because it's been designated as a village green, not a campsite.

It's much easier to choose it when you're living in a tiny home.

Not all issues are visible. Who's to say someone's lack of fitness is due to choice, and not mental health issues, the environment they grew up in, spending their life as a child carer for a parent, etc. Many kids end up morbidly obese due to their parents choices, etc. Easily accessible outdoor adventure could be their key to making positive lifestyle changes. Shaming them won't do that.

Thankfully, there are many places in the world where such intolerance isn't a thing 🙂

Yeah, some people just like to feel they've achieved a social status that allows them a level of privilege, and that anyone getting something for free is somehow cheating the world.

This sounds like the perfect plan.  I know plenty of pubs do this.

Yeah those bloody privileged folk staying in their fancy tents in a £5-a-night campsite!

Not like those poor folk in their £30k vans. 

Are all of people staying in their vans parked up in pubs with the landlord's permission and access to their toilets? Because if not your point is about as valid as the other extreme of saying you all shit in laybys. 

What's the point in saving money on a campsite if you then end up dossing in a carpark and spending a fortune on pubs and cafes? Seems to defeat the whole purpose of having a van.

Eh?

My point was that no matter how quiet, unobtrusive and social you are, there are some people who will not want you to park in their area, because they paid a lot of money for that postcode, and they don't want someone else to benefit from the views or access it affords for free.

What, parking a van by a view?  Seriously?  That's a terrible example.

A good entry level activity might involve parking it (or a tent) on a campsite, and perhaps going for a nice day valley walk.

I didn't pay a lot of my money for my postcode, and the view is only good if you happen to like 1970s Barratt housing estates, but I *still* don't want people living or otherwise staying overnight in it other than in the homes provided for that purpose thereon, with a concession for those who may be genuinely homeless.

I suspect that is likely to be the majority view by a considerable margin.

I don't have a great issue with that in a rural pub, indeed some have campsites too.

I like beer and coffee

I had a childhood in the late '60s and early '70s with all holidays being VW camper van trips, mostly in Scotland, just parking by the side of the road. The memories of these are among my happiest and the joy of outdoor freedom they gave me undoubtedly massively influenced my path in life. My parents still do exactly the same in their late eighties/early nineties which I think is rather wonderful. I was talking to them about it recently after a trip they made to the NW and they were shocked at how busy it was on the NC500 (though they have the knowledge to get away from people). They were saying how they remember vans being so rare that they would sometimes stop for a chat if they met one coming in the opposite direction!

It's probably the numbers that are an issue.  The odd one and nobody would care - same with wild camping, really.

So do I, but I'd rather have a can of beer or make my own coffee in a nice place with a view!

and I would rather visit a pub have a pint from a pump, not much of a view in the dark. Then have coffee and breakfast in a cafe before going for a walk or a climb. Different strokes for different folks.

Yes, but *why* don't you want this. If someone turns up quietly, parks considerately, sleeps in their van, doesn't behave anti-socially and keeps themselves to themselves, what is it that you are objecting to?

This is the issue isn't it.

I slept in a panel van  everywhere from Sennen to Sango in the 90's and no one cared because I was the only one there.

This year I stayed in a sprawling trailer park at Walna Scar and a tent city in Glen Etive. It felt ridiculous. If it wasnt for Covid I think I'd rather fork out for a b&b.

The problem is that at lot of people don't do that.  Without a massive increase in the Police Force it's impossible to differentiate.

A change of Government might help. The Conservatives actively promote a "hostile environment" to any outsiders and have cut the funding to local government so provision of services that don't directly benefit local residents aren't a high priority for councils. Promotion of xenophobia and individual gain over social justice has got to take a toll over time. Failing a change of Government a few more public conveniences weall can benefit from wouldn't go amiss.

Absolutely. It doesn't matter how well behaved asnd considerate people are individually, once there are too many they are collectively unacceptable and their own experience degraded,

Or, rather, you only notice the ones that don't do that because by definition it's impossible to see the ones that do.

Catch 22, isn't it ? the government we have is precisely because those are the values of the electorate.

Is it? What's different about the UK that makes it difficult to determine who's anti-social and who's not in a van? They seem to manage to figure it out OK in France and Spain.

You get lots of anti-social behaviour in parks too. Do you find it difficult to differentiate between social and anti-social behaviour in parks, and complain that people shouldn't use them too?

It just sounds like excuses for not wanting someone else to enjoy the local facilities to me.

despite all the arguments that followed this post I do actually have a lot of sympathy. In fact (and thanks for provisioning you analysis of my motives with 'potentially') I was proposing a couple of plastic portaloos and a standpipe, not a fully installed and maintained toilet block, and I was most definitely not suggesting that campervans should park in pretty villages for nothing. In fact the tolerant Spanish seem to use the provision of two portaloos and a standpipe to draw campervans away from residential places. The ones I visited were on waste ground well out of sight of residential and holiday houses. This benefits everyone as generally campers have no need to be in town. A visit to the supermarket is enough. What they gain is the company of other campervanners which brings social contact as well as mutual security. What the local community gains (looses?) is fewer or no campers in their community and presumably none of the offensive behaviours that go with 'wild' campervan life. Further more, I only found this out when trying to get into campsites that were full (which is also most certainly true of uk campsites in the summer). All of the campsites would point us towards the overflow, they were well briefed by the council I suspect so that the camper problem was well managed. In addition there were loads of really pretty rural pop up managed campsites that had no facilities at all but all other than the sea. These were rammed with the insta #vanlifers as the views were great and their kind were there in numbers. So with two cheap and simple measures the vast numbers of campers that visit spain in the summer from all over europe are effectively made invisible. My motives are only to mitigate the problem that exists already. It wont go away without action.

I think where that falls down is funding. Local, and particularly Parish, councils are absolutely strapped for cash after years of austerity.

Daft as it sounds, servicing a couple of portaloos and laying (at a guess) several hundred metres of plastic pipe doesn't come cheap, especially where planning permission is involved.

At a guess the municipalities in Spain and France have more autonomy, and are able to levy surcharges on businesses that rely on tourism to pay for the sites.

Can't see that you'd want to use them by me[1].  If you go to an AONB, by contrast, there are usually a wide range of different forms of accommodation, from posh hotels to £5-a-night campsites, which you can use in order to stay there to enjoy the local facilities, rather than parking an unsightly old van on a residential street.

I guess we are just culturally different.  If I did own a van, I can't see why I'd even have thought about parking it anywhere other than somewhere intended for the purpose.  I don't see the benefit of one being the ability to doss in a layby, I see it as the ease of chucking your bag in the back, getting in and going near enough where you want, without the faff of hitching up a caravan or putting up a tent.  I do see why it'd be nice to park up in a scenic layby, but I wouldn't see it as right to pitch my tent there, so I wouldn't see it as right to park a campervan there to sleep in it either.  And I certainly don't see what would appeal about parking up in a layby on the A5, say - clearly lorry drivers have to, but for pleasure?

[1] Though there are campsites in MK, there's a fairly nice one just outside Cosgrove way though I don't think it's cheap.  There's also a YHA in Bradwell which is a fairly budget option.

I guess that's the crux of it here. Question: have you ever slept in the back of your car to go climbing? A few years back, when psyche was at its highest, I would go night bouldering in the Peak multiple times a week after work and off to Wales or the Lakes literally every Friday from the start of September until the weather turned wet in late November. None of that would have been possible if I had to book anything in advance or have any concerns about turning up late, I typically finish work any time between 6 and 9PM. Obviously, being in the back of a car privacy is not amazing so we were always on back roads outside the villages, if anything my bright orange T5 is *less* obvious than that, in that you can't look through a window and see anyone inside there's curtains and heavily tinted back windows.

And no, no crapping in bushes occurred that season, I don't see why you keep calling that inevitable.

Basically, any time I am away to climb, the objective is to climb, staying somewhere nice is not an objective.

I have no particular feeling for or against vans, debated one myself but never justified the buying cost when weighted against using hotels or camping. However I only go away weekends so wouldn't use it that much.

I think you are overlooking that the government (world?) is moving to electric. They now probably don't want to attract people to take the kitchen sink and toilet everywhere in a big diesel van. 

Things are changing fast now environmentally, I suspect in not too many years? vans will get limited to those who need them for work. So any council setting up cheap van facilities would be out of line with where things are heading. Its also just better for everyone involved if a few quid go to a farm campsite right?

Not sure the argument; I can afford a £10k van but not £10 for a cheap farm campsite will ever carry that much weight tbh...

I'm hearing what you're saying but who would you like to pay for it and come out to shovel your shit and why do you think they should? You seem pretty resolute that the people using it shouldn't have to. If you're asking councils to do something about it the best you'll get is a bunch of no overnight parking signs. Because have a look at what a serviced crapper costs and what a sign and barrier costs. Not the same as in Spain. 

The local councils here will have a very different attitude to those in Spain, because things are different here. Population density is on a different scale in our national parks compared to the climbing areas of Spain, which aren't right up in the middle of their tourist hotspots. You didn't van camp in the middle of benidorm. We don't have an out of the way spot that won't annoy anyone. And we're less tolerant of a bank of overflowing crappers with a pile of litter next to them in a national park. 

I think you'll just have to learn to pick up after yourself or be driven out of town. 

Edit to add: My experience of similar things showed how it ends. The Cuvier site in the early 2000s was a tap in a field with a sign asking for some basic courtesies on numbers and length of stay. It was there for years until it go too popular, people took the piss and it became a cesspit. It was closed. It could only ever work if people weren't already queuing to take the piss. 

What you seem to be saying is "council tax payers of Snowdonia, be a dear and chip in to buy me a free campsite."

It is campsite you've described. That is what you're asking for. A place to park your van that has water and toilets = a campsite that doesn't allow tents or caravans. 

Regarding "local drivers have to park in a lay-by on the A5" - they don't. 

Round my way all the lay-by are full of yellow plastic bottles of piss thrown out of cabs by the HGV drivers who park up. The Midlands area is the distribution capital of the UK and its a real problem. 

Do they have to? No, of course not.

There are lots of fully serviced, secure lorry parks with facilities along the A5 round here. Do all drivers use them? No they don't. They'd rather park for free, pollute the lay-by and pocket the overnight money they're paid. 

The difference is that those facilities are supremely useful to people that are not camping as well. For some reason toilets for any sort of visitor or even local are becoming a bit like gold dust, which is a direct result of austerity as far as I can tell. It is the case even in major cities.

Is that the level the climbing community aspire to, though ?

I couldn’t be ar*ed to read the whole conversation so this may have been said already but the solution to this problem has already been solved, albeit few know it. We do it in our van all the time.

It’s called “the pub motorhome stopover”. 
many pubs out there allow you to stay for free in their car park over night with access to toilet facilities free of charge if you have a pint or a meal in the evening. It’s safe, secure, you have the warmth of the pub, free facilities, you contribute to the local economy, it’s sociable, you don’t leave mess and there’s mostly a pub not far from your next days activities. The more pubs get on board the better. There are many apps like britstop that show you where they all are. Maybe the van life community just need a bit of education in respect of this. 

No.  If I was going to do a climbing day trip like that I'd get to bed early on Friday evening and do an early start (and indeed I've done *that* a number of times).  I'll sleep better for 5 hours (say) in my bed than for 8 (say) in the back of a car.  Or for North Wales there's the option of booking Oswestry or Shrewsbury Travelodge at the last minute to split it in half.  Or some of the "fiver a night" type campsites like the Gwern Gofs on the A5 don't mind (in normal circumstances) if a lone camper rocks up at 2am and pitches (also done that) provided they park away from the camping field and are as quiet as possible.

I have kipped in a car that I can think of 3 times.  Once was aged about 3 after being evacuated from a flooded Scout campsite.  Once was because I couldn't be bothered to put my tent up after having had quite a number of pints.  Once was in the motorway services as I was too tired to safely continue.  None of them were planned and nor would I ever plan that.

My point wasn't that it was inevitable that any given person would do that (depends very much on their bowels ), but rather if there are a collection of vans at least someone is likely to.  How much of an issue it is also depends on how - if you take a trowel, dig a hole, burn the paper and properly bury the rest then it's not much of an issue, but if you leave turds and (worse) bog roll lying around that's just horrible.

I think you are probably more willing to accept discomfort than I am by the sound of things.  That might sound a bit pretentious, but if you can afford the fuel from London to North Wales (say) then you can afford a fiver for a cheap campsite, and there aren't going to be many climbers who don't own a tent (even a cheap one) and can't borrow one.  And if you're only going from say the North West or Birmingham, it's only a couple of hours so you can just get up early and travel on the morning.

The "bottle of piss" thing I don't get.  Sure, it's better not to lop your proverbial out in the middle of the layby, but why not simply pour it in the trees (or even just open the door and pour it on the road) and it will be washed away when it next rains, then throw the bottle in the bin?  It's as bad as dog turd bags - if you're going to hang them in the trees, you'd be better flicking the turd into the trees or burying it because at least that will eventually wash away.

And we can also blame the companies for that - rather than paying an overnight allowance, it should be receipted expenses.  That is, the lorry park fee can be claimed if spent, but not pocketed.  Amazes me that any business does allowances rather than capped (HMRC provides recommended maximum values) receipted expenses, as it inevitably results in them paying more money out than necessary.

There will, in due course, be a second hand market in electric vans, I'd be pretty sure.

Agreed, and this is something that boils my...you know

Mainly because it's highly discriminatory, both gender and age.  We have almost got back to the point that older people (even more female ones) will fear going out and using the local park, for example, because they won't have a toilet facility available to them.

I don't mind having to pay a small amount for use, but non-provision really is an annoyance.

The issue is numbers.

Turn up for a night then clear off - what's the problem? Well, someone else will turn the the next night then clear off - what's the problem? Well, someone else will turn up the next night then clear off - what's the problem? Well...

This works well for surf trips to SW France:

https://www.biscagrandslacs.co.uk/accomodation/camper-van-areas

I am not a morning person. With that I do not mean that I am too lazy to wake up in the morning, I can and do, I mean that if I wake up at 5-6AM to go to Wales, by the time I am at the crag I will be shattered and unable to do anything. I have done that too, and that was the outcome every time. I would much rather already be there and spend the whole of Saturday and Sunday climbing.

I genuinely didn't mind doing it in the car. Getting the van was a logical conclusion to that when my car got written off.

My bowels are very much not great, but I prefer to go and have a full English at a lovely cafe and use the facilities there. Things tend to get moving after a coffee rather than before anyway, if you catch my drift.

That's the case with any visitor though.

Discomfort is a secondary thing, I'm going climbing in autumn, not exactly the most comfortable endeavour to start with. I drive from Nottingham. The price of the campsite isn't really the problem. The reasons are:

1) Not all places have campsites that you can just turn up in, at least not ones that I know and have any means of finding out are operational at the time (which is generally off-season). I wouldn't want to start calling places at 9PM when I finish work and the weather forecast is a little more conclusive, especially as for a lot of these places the business number is just their home landline.

2) Setting up actual camp somewhere does not facilitate following the weather. Setting up a tent, then drying said tent afterwards, when going in to catch a weather window and the rest of the trip is going to be wet is something so unappealing I might as well not go at all. 

3) The campsites that do allow turning up at 1AM and paying in the morning aren't necessarily somewhere useful. There are notable exceptions. Nant Peris is excellent, cheap and opposite a pub. The one in Llanberis on the other hand is on a horrible slope, didn't even have TP in the toilets the times I stayed there, and on top of that is literally twice the price per person per night which is rather not worth it for what you get and feels a little bit like subsidising their glamping services.

You can sum all all of the above as trading comfort for convenience.

Yes, my local pub offers free stopovers for campervans if they buy meals. A lot of the vans are stationary for a few days, as it’s possible to walk to Stoney, Froggatt and Curbar. Obvs closed at the moment, but generally a great facility.

It always amuses me that Spain gets used as the example for Van Life nirvana.

I love Spain and spend my winters here, in an apartment these days, but most of the popular places for van dwelling are pretty rancid with the surrounding areas to any spot being littered with excrement and toilet paper.

I go away quite a few weekends a year, always driving on the Friday evening after work. Often getting in to campsites no earlier than 8pm, often a lot later. I can't recall a single time it's been a problem arriving at that time and pitching up (well except the woman at Porthclais Farm Campsite who wanted to fight us for not posting exact change through her letterbox upon arrival. They are apparently fine with late arrivals though).  Practically all campsites have a carparking area away from the pitches and don't have an issue with you arriving late as long as you are considerate. The arriving late is a bit of a weak excuse imo.  

Which pub is that? Could be really useful for mates with vans who want to spend the wknd in the Peak. 

I can recall a few. Applecross campsite is one.

Possibly.  But there are enough campsites in the Lakes and Wales that are happy for late arrivals, so that a few aren't doesn't really matter, you just don't give them your business.

If you go frequently it's not exactly from first principles, you'll have one you default to anyway.

That is really the issue. I am just making a very slow journey back from Portree to Inverness stopping to take a lot of photos (great weather, not a lot of winter though). Every single parking place has a fringe of human excrement. This wasn't there a few years ago. This morning I was discussing vans /motorhomes at work on Skye. One individual used the term 'cockroaches' as there are hordes of them, they are unsightly, leave a mess and contribute nothing. A perhaps extreme view, extremely expressed but not unusual. It is a view that is certainly making me reconsider getting one. Whether or not individual users on this forum act responsibly so many people don't that a real problem exists that is not just a result of prejudice. Highland is strapped for cash so in the absence of the SG accepting the need for a tourist tax its hard to see where the money for facilities will come from. Next summer is going to be interesting. 

Be discreet. 

The Eyre Arms on Calver Crossroad has been doing it fir a long time. Closed at the moment as it’s tier3. Big car park with plenty of grassy bits. The pub has decent beer, has upped its game on the food side and there’s also a coffee shop and Spar on the Crossroads. 

thanks, good to know

An excuse is justification for doing something wrong. In my view it is just an added complication that I can and do do without.

Well, one reason might be work. Going back a decade or so, through poor life choices, I had amassed a considerable amount of debt.

Between climbing, other sport, and counseling for depression I managed to get myself in a position to stop the self destructive behaviours and start reducing the debt. The dream of a year in Europe climbing once I was in credit was a large part of the motivation to turn my life around, but it was a long process. 

After I'd cleared most of the debt I bought a van, converted it and moved in. I was working in the city, so spending about a grand a month on rent and bills, living in West London.

12 months later, the savings had more than paid for the van, and I was free to spend the next 18 months climbing. If I'd stayed in the house, it would have taken at least another year.

Instead of putting more money into my landlords dreams, I put it into my own.

During that time, I moved around the city. Mostly I just picked a quiet residential street, slept, and drove away in the morning to park and ride the bike to work. Sometimes I parked near a friend's house to spend the evening with them... it was actually quite nice, because getting across London and back again to see friends can be a real drag on a school night.

What was interesting, was starting to notice how many people were quietly living in cars vans in the city already. You don't notice it until you start doing it yourself, as they're mostly being very discreet.

In those 12 months, I caused nobody any bother, and nobody caused me any. Because I kept moving, nobody even knew.

If you stop moving around, people start to notice you. Some are friendly, some get upset. You're not actually impacting on the lives of those who get upset in any way - they just get upset because they've seen you and they don't like someone doing something different, as far as I can tell.

The side of the road is intended for parking vehicles.

If the lay-by is between where you are, and where you want to be, and you're too tired to get to where you want to be, the freedom to just pull over and sleep with no faff is great.

Maybe you don't like to travel as far or as often as I do?

Questionable.  Many other countries allow parking only where specified.  I wouldn't say that the side of any road is intended for sleeping in vehicles; residential properties (homes, hotels, campsites etc) are intended for living in, not the street.  Homeless people have no choice.  Non-homeless people do.

I travel extensively, but I have a different view to you on where it's acceptable to sleep.  I would never plan to sleep in a vehicle on a public road or similar place (though as I said I accept sometimes homelessness or emergencies mean there's no choice), and it's not something I consider to be appropriate, generally speaking.  We clearly differ over that matter.

I don't think that's necessarily wrong.  As a society, we've generally decided (and most people will agree) that sleeping and other related private activities (e.g. your ablutions) are generally not, unless you have no choice i.e. are homeless, done in a public place.  It's quite understandable that people are put out by those who don't accept that collective view.  You may of course not accept that view (it's clear to me that you don't), and that's your choice, but it does mean you will be in receipt of criticism for your choice.

Personally I find it hard to understand your point of view. If someone wants to sleep in their car or van then why shouldn't they be able to do so? Assuming they're otherwise well behaved I can't see any harm to others.

If it makes people uncomfortable, why is that? If it's some sort of societal norm, why is that?

They will only be of use to van dwellers if they put some charge points in along side the free toilet block and stand pipes that currently don't exist 🤣.

It's really not questionable in the UK. Overnight parking and sleeping is allowed, except where a local bylaw specifically forbids it - hence the "no overnight parking" signs where it had been forbidden.

I've been woken up once by the police, having been called by an elderly resident who was concerned. They had no issue with what I was doing (although I moved down the road anyway to save any further distress), after a quick look around to confirm I was not in fact rubbing a meth lab on the sly. They were slightly surprised to hear I'd be going to work in a bank in the morning, but quite complimentary of the self build.

Of course, most people won't think it's acceptable for them to sleep in a van.

It's the desire to decide what's unacceptable for others to do (when bit impacting on them) that I find distasteful.

Have we? Would you find something wrong with a nap in the park on a sunny afternoon after a picnic, or falling asleep on the beach?

Why would you want to restrict yourself in that way?

I certainly hope my current van will be my last internal combustion engine. I'd like to see hydrogen fuel cell technology take over, as it means less lithium mining, but if it's not there in time most manufacturers now have released, or at in the process of releasing, large electric vans.

Your £10k van should last at least 5 years. At £10/night, that's £18k in parking.

It's 18k if you have to pay £10 for parking every day for 5 years. Not really a point. I can't see most people going away more than 2 days a week, averaged out. 

If people are paying >£100 a month in council tax they could rightly feel aggrieved that some sponge is parked up outside their house benefitting from the services that goes towards funding. 

Also, we have all come to the agreed conclusion that the problem is numbers. A lot of the time, it doesn't take long for 1 van to become 2, to become 3, to become 4 and suddenly the street is full. There are streets in Bristol where people can't sell their houses because there is a van or caravan motorcade parked up outside, along with all the joys that that brings. People sleeping in vehicles feel safety in numbers and also, once they tell their comrades about somewhere nice where they don't get hassled, they join them. 

If only such a thing existed where they could all park together, not bother anyone, and be provided with the security and facilities which they need. 

(psst. it's a campsite, guys)

isn't that the point of portaloos? if the service company doesn't like dealing with poo I suggest they should go into tele-sales or something. I'm pretty sure they have the tools and skills to deal with mine anyway. 

And no actually I haven't made any statement at all about 'free'. I just note that if you want campers to use any kind alternative then in reality its got to be a lot cheaper than campsites. That's self evident I'd have thought.

And on this you are probably right - but you provide no solutions. Your approach seems to be that its everyone else's fault and they should just buck up. There are presumably  genuine reasons why van residents don't use campsites; pop up or otherwise or free pub car-parks. Mostly its because of the expense.

I'm not creating the problem and I'm not part of that community but I can certainly see that your sort of bullying isn't going to get it solved.

An interesting thread.

Can we stop comparing the UK to France and Spain when it comes to finding patches of land for van dwellers? If you're going to use international comparisons, maybe the Netherlands, Belgium or the more populated parts of New Jersey might be better.

Providing services. This is going to be done by councils, and perhaps a lot of us are still under the illusion that council finances are anything like they were a decade ago. They are not, councils are skint and can barely provice basic services to their residents. Most British cities are full of rubbish and homeless people with nowhere to go, lots of council enforcement services (noise, minimum wage, that kind of thing) are pretty threadbare, etc etc. I can't imagine a lot of rural areas fare much better. Extra toilets for people who can splash out £10k on a van are not top of a councillor's list of things to do. Obviously we need better public services including toilets, but let's be honest: that's not happening any time soon.

Sleeping on residential streets. Yeah, I'm with Neil on this. I would absolutely not welcome some bloke deciding to live out of a vehicle on my street. I want to live on a street of houses and shops, not a caravan park. I'm sure stealth camper Ciro is a decent and unobtrusive temporary neighbour but you only need a minority not to be and you've a problem on your hands. I'd rather not, to be honest.

I really hope you right as i am in the mechanics trade.  Current market predictions are that the second hand market will pretty much dry up, with people further forced towards lease hire deals due to the costs involved with a new re-battery. We are gearing towards to the MoT market going forward. The problem with hydrogen has always been the costs of the fuel + fuel cell is miles higher than electric or petrol, and vans fall into a strange place here. I can imagine big haulage firms shelling out the cost for new lorries, but 100k for a new hydrogen van wouldn't go down well with the local plumber, hence more likely to use electric vans and make do with less max range. From your perspective electric vans will force you to an over night charging point i would think.... so probably time to join the camping and caravan club  

For extreme use like you describe then i agree. Most van owning climbers I know seems to drive to work 5 days a week (with the kitchen sink & toilet in the back). Then pop away for the odd weekend when they cant find a cheap flight to the dollies.

Fair point...not something that affects me as I can never sleep during the day unless I've missed the night before.

Why not? Maybe someone might be able to afford either a van or campsite fees and has chosen to spend their money on a van. Anyway, most people without a van have a car, so we are only talking about the cost of buying and running a van over and above that of a car. I am intending to replace my current car with a small van and I don't anticipate it costing significantly more than I would on a car.

It's an interesting question. A couple of thoughts.

1. Feeling threatened. If you live on a street you know your neighbours, how trustworthy they are. Even if they're objectionable you can develop strategies to deal with them. If some random itinerant, (or a series of random people), parks himself outside my house I have no idea of his intentions. Is he waiting for an opportunity to break into my house or shed, does he want to steal my dog from the garden for profit or dog fighting, is he scoping out the area ready for a load of transit vans and caravans to descend? It would certainly be a concern for me, for an elderly or vulnerable person I can see it leading to all sorts of stress and anxiety. A bunch of kids hanging around in front of your window for a couple of hours is annoying, let alone someone setting up home.

People want to be comfortable where they live. Maybe have a bit of empathy for others?

2. Council tax. People could be paying a couple of hundred quid a month to live there. Why should someone enjoy that amenity for free? Whilst you don't have the right to park outside your house I can see people getting pissed of with continually occupied parking spaces along the street.

3. Where one arrives others may well follow. Lots of rural communities are getting fed up with social media being used to promote 'free' parking, with the associated noise, liter and excrement. Obviously thats a different scenario from what happens in urban areas, but an area where parking is tolerated may well become popular through word of mouth.

On a personal level I wouldn't be too fussed if the odd van parked up overnight, kept quiet and then moved on. If it became a regular occurrence or someone set up home I'd want rid of them.

From your very first post:

Back in the now:

I proposed a three solutions [1) sleepwalk into the clampdown/ban 2) use a campsite 3) clear up your own shit] and suggested which I thought we were on the path to, but also encouraged you to find some people who agree with you and to crack on and look into making it happen.
Portable bog hire is about £25 a week give or take. Clean running water, well, depends where you are. The land you're going to use? Could be anywhere from free. You'll probably want some liability insurance in case you poison anyone or a trainspotting moment happens. Work out how much you reckon you'd have to charge each punter and let me know on a postcard.
What's that Sooty? Not much change from a tenner? Well, shit.

The only people who want it solved in the way that's favourable to them (you) are the people who will be affected by it, so flapping their (your) arms and expecting it to be solved for them (you) is going to get tiring. People without vans either don't really give a shit if vans are banned or actively want vans banned (I'm in the former camp, and would sympathise with the responsible users). Responsibility lies squarely with the vanners to make it sustainable.

I think this sums it up nicely.  I mentioned upthread that I have no problem with for example caravan-dwelling travellers, apart from that they invariably cause problems by leaving litter, having loose dogs, carrying out untaxed cash in hand work and park in places of public amenity e.g. parks, denying everyone the right to use those places.  And that's not an anti-traveller thing; I don't think it would be right to wild camp there in a tent either.

I think it's the same thing with vans.  Provided the van was tidily kept and you barely saw its occupant, fine (I have an issue with unroadworthy wrecks being left in the street, too, whether occupied or not; this is why formalising SORN is a good thing).  But that's not how it would be with, at the very least, a considerably sized minority.

The solution is that if you can't afford to pay to park your van somewhere suitable, you don't go on holiday as often so you can afford that.

As I've mentioned multiple times, if you're genuinely, involuntarily homeless (I include in that fleeing abuse etc), fine, that's society's problem and that shouldn't be hidden from us because we need to deal with it.  A van owner's choice of holiday isn't.  If you can't afford a £5-a-night basic campsite in which to park the van and use the facilities (that's a tenner or so for a weekend, far cheaper than your fuel and probably your food too), you can't afford the trip, so go less often so you can afford it.

Yes, I thought that was a bit bizarre - there are loads of companies who make a healthy profit from shovelling sh*t, and contracting any one of those is going to handle the issue just fine.

If you live in it, yes.  But why should you occupy a piece of land to live on (which is what you've worked out there) without paying to do so?  Land is not free.

(If you consider that it should be, as to be fair many do, then that is probably the root of our difference; I have no issue with paying to park generally as I think it's entirely fair for me to pay a few quid to hire a piece of land to plonk my car on if it's not on my driveway).

That's either a very cheap van or a very opulent campsite. Either way I'm in the wrong business.
I don't have any time for this argument that it can be one or the other. It's bollocks. The cost of a low-end campsite is in the noise on the cost of any weekend climbing trip involving a long drive.

You worked in The City and chose to live in a van? Is that a thing?

The general principle that choosing to save money by not spending it on something makes it available to spend on something else is absolutely self evident.

Campsites seem to cost about £10+ per night per person. So £20 per person for a weekend. If I drive to the NW of Scotland for the weekend with one other person in my car, the fuel is about £25 per person. So the camping is getting on for half the cost.

Even if you own the land, you can't just plonk a van on it and decide to live in it. 

Is it me or is there something unseemly about grown men in professional jobs (RD is a teacher iirc) quibbling over spending £20? 

Not at all. Many £20's saved on lots of things (I am pretty frugal in many ways) means that I can afford to go on a lot of climbing trips worldwide and am planning to retire earlier than I would otherwise. 

Newer small vans aren't cheap to buy or run. When compared to something like a petrol car of the same year and mileage. The emissions costs and tax really started to make a difference from around 10reg. If you were considering a small van then an estate car maybe a better move?

I would expect the running cost difference to be in the hundreds a year, maybe more if you went for a smaller car that sneaks into the lower tax bracket and returns 70mpg.

If you go pre 06 reg you defo sneak under all the diesel regs and that will make it cheaper... Although finding an 06 reg van in good condition will be fun.

I could probably budget for a few hundred per year extra. I have always had estate cars, but quite fancy a bit more convenience because I expect to retire soon and spend more time dossing in it. Just a shell with a basic sleeping platform I could sit on to cook on the floor is all I am thinking of.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm going to argue that's neither a low-end campsite nor a long drive. When you're talking £100 fuel and £6/night camping, which, if we're honest, is more realistic for the people we're all talking about here, going from That London to Snowdonia or whatever and who also choose not to go hungry, it's noise.
Neil said it better at 19:05 anyway.

Well I rarely go further than the NW of Scotland and, apart from Sheigra, I don't think I'm aware of campsites in areas I frequent under about £10.

I eat at home. Don't you?

I am far enough from the breadline to afford a car at the moment and, as I said, reckon I could stretch to a small van.

A bolt clipping trip to Spain perhaps?

That's great for n=1 but I don't think your experience of NW scotland really reflects what you see in the areas where this is coming to a head. There have been plenty of mentions of the gwern gofs etc. already.

It does make sense, that would also keep it usable as a van too. They are useful, I own a small transit connect which gets used like that 😉 as well as for work.

Unless you are slightly extreme I think you will find a basic campsite still makes sense when possible. £8 in winter not to have to cr@p like a wild animal and maybe even a hot shower after a day in the mountains always seemed a bargain too me.

Maybe not. I am very glad I live in Scotland and weekends don't mean areas like Cornwall or the Lakes.

I meant that food is not an additional cost of going away.

Few campsites are open in winter. Dry clothes is the only problem. Two complete sets is the solution.

I quite enjoy living and crapping like an unwashed animal.

It is nice up there. I'd probably not leave that often either. Be nice not to have to see what it's got like in North Wales.

I used to spend a lot of winter weekends on the red squirrel in glen coe, think that's gone now though right?

It's certainly a thing I did.

I was a software developer, not a trader, so perhaps not on the same sort of money you are thinking 😁

Perhaps this is the root of why people don't like it. They've chosen a lifestyle that means they will work until they are 65, with four weeks holidays a year.

Someone living in a van, who only works about six months in every 18, is dangerous because it shows there's another way that they don't want to think about.

A bit like how alcoholics in training don't like hearing that someone else has gone tee-total.

This is a fabulously silly post. Well done!

I have no desire to have the discomfort of living in a van, none whatsoever.  To me it's only a small step up from being homeless.

Fine for a weekend, as is a tent, though.

Well, not really. I mean, it's not expensive but for example, Nottingham to Llanberis and back is 350 miles round trip. that is just over half a tank on my van, so let's call it 50 quid of diesel if my right foot is feeling indulgent. Three people in the van, 5 quid per person per night for two nights is 30 quid, nearly 2/3 of the diesel cost. Make that 10 quid per person per night and it's more than the diesel.

That's a bit of a stretch! (Anyway, it's 60 and 8 weeks here 😀). I don't have a problem with how anyone lives their life, it's the impact on others who also have a right to live their lives that concerns me.

You're right I don't want to think about living in a van, I quite like my home comforts, space, warmth, garden etc. To me, dossing in a van's fine if you're working or camping, but it's not a lifestyle that appeals to me. You seem sorted and try not to disturb anyone, so more power to you. However I don't agree with the OP's premise that I should subsidise his holidays.

Oi, I'm not the one aiming to spend his old age kipping on the street... 😉

Personally I like a shower now and again !

The Grouse up near Froggatt also do this and I have seen vans at the Millstone  under Millstone Quarry.

apparently Operation Stack has taken on the characteristics of van shitting. I think this just goes to show how dysfunctional this nation is when it comes to the provision of necessary facilities. IF the government can plan for regular transport backlogs and builds infrastructure to stop the roads clogging up with lorries and yet when its used in anger the toilet facilities are overwhelmed its no wonder that we effectively force drivers to shit in the fields. What is it about british character that finds it intolerable to fund public toilets? 

Goodness knows, but it's been a problem right back to Victorian times.

China has this one right, there's a set on practically every street corner.  OK, they're hose-out squats (for quick cleaning), but that's better than behind a bush.