In reply to stp:
> (In reply to Dave Garnett)
> There are plenty of small, low quality crags that are not worth travelling to and only of interest to the locals. Should people who have never visited these crags and are never likely to have a say in what in goes on there? I would say not.
>
Without getting into arguments about particular venues or adopting any fundamentalist positions about bolting in general, I think you are missing some basic principles.
Climbers pride themselves (sometimes a little unrealistically) on being free spirits and nonconformists. One of the reasons we've managed to escape a lot of rules and restrictions is that, for many years, we adopted a minimal impact, 'leave no trace' attitude that made it difficult for landowners and legislators to make a convincing case for restricting us. The trespass laws help too, as long as we do no damage. I can feel comfortable climbing somewhere where I'm probably trespassing, without worrying about who the landowner is (by and large!), knowing that almost always I've done nothing that won't be erased by the next rain.
Now, this is going to sound terribly old-fashioned in the context of a popular sport crag but I still think this is a useful attitude in minimising our impact. Once you convert an esentially natural crag into an artificial amenity you are no different to a shooting club using a quarry or a syndicate managing a grouse moor. All sorts of issues arise; access, ownership, public liability, maintenance, visual and environmental impact, conflict with other users, Wildlife Trusts and RSPB... in short, responsibilities.
I don't know about you, but this exactly the sort of thing I climb to avoid. More importantly, bolting rock that you don't own and with no consideration of the impact on other people is monumentally selfish. I think I can make a defensible philosophical argument that, as long I leave no trace, I can climb where I like. I don't think the same can be said of your right to place bolts. To be absolutely clear; I'm not saying that there shouldn't be sport routes, of course not. I've clipped plenty of bolts and I've even argued for discreet bolting of the occasional belay on trad crags for safety or environmental reasons. But I do think that the level of consensus, agreement and permission required is of a different order.
I guess my position is basically that we have something approaching a right to climb without fixed gear, but this isn't true for bolting.
>
> The term for people who try to involve themselves in things that don't affect them is a 'busybody'.
Depends on the context, doesn't it? They might also be called 'public spirited', 'good Samaritans', 'passionate about the environment' or just 'giving a f**k'.
Post edited at 09:05