UKC

Pregnancy, climbing & Shauna.

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 TomD89 18 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

On so-called bullying: “The idea that someone would stop doing something they absolutely love because of the judgment; it’s so sad we’re in a position where that happens still.”

So a pregnant woman could love competing in MMA or drinking a bottle of wine after work, but judgement from others is inappropriate? Obviously absurd in the context of child safety during pregnancy. Posting anything you do publicly on social media invites opinions that you may not like or agree with. Classifying this and receiving 'funny looks' (often a very subjective phenomenon) as bullying is a bit dramatic for my taste.

Further, The British climber Alison Hargreaves scaled the north face of the Eiger while nearly six months pregnant in 1988

Very dangerous. Is it bullying to suggest this might not be the best idea? A couple of other female climbers did full on climbing and mother/child survived that, so therefore it should be encouraged and celebrated? Using Alison, who sadly went on to die while mountain climbing, as an example seems especially inappropriate.

Shauna rightly points out further down that because she is a pro she 'knows how to climb safely' isn't the right message. 

Shauna mentions she avoids 'super steep stuff'. Personally I'd think slabs would be also quite risky (whacking baby bump on a hold/volume, though this is possible on any degree of incline). 

Is there no risk to baby from taking repeated 2-5 meter falls and the jarring impacts associated?

To be clear I totally sympathise with Shauna's urge to climb and how that is integral to her happiness. I could see traversing being all but completely safe, as would fingerboarding and upper body work (pullups etc) and lowball boulder problems on a training board or similar. No doubt she's smart and sensible and will likely have a perfectly healthy pregnancy while continuing to climb in some capacity, but some of the points made in the article are duff IMO. 

This is not just climbing specific, I would suggest skateboarding, ice hockey and pole vault might also not be the greatest idea while pregnant. The parents choice is fine, but calling any counter opinion bullying is wrongheaded.

Post edited at 12:32
125
In reply to TomD89:

isn't the whole point that she's bouldering so far under the limit to mitigate the risk? So a more accurate comparison would be someone who loves MMA continuing to do a bit of conditioning training during pregnancy but not doing anything close to an actual fight, or someone who likes a drink after work still going to the pub but drinking soft drinks?

3
 Offwidth 18 May 2022
In reply to stevevans5:

Nah...Tom's got a point to prove on the underappreciated benefits of the patriarchy. I'm sure Shauna would have taken specific medical advice.

Even the NHS advice is a bit generic for me (it would seem to preclude any anaerobic exercise for any pregnant woman???)

https://www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/keeping-well/exercise/#:~:text=Keep%20up%20your%20normal%20daily,in%20later%20pregnancy%20and%20labour.

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 Howard J 18 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:

It's bullying when people are criticising her about matters where they have no expertise.  According to the article, Shauna is climbing under professional supervision by her physio, and is staying well within her comfort zone.  Any risks she may be taking are calculated and informed.

> Is there no risk to baby from taking repeated 2-5 meter falls and the jarring impacts associated?

Don't you know whether or not there is a risk? If not, what entitles you to make assumptions? And is there any suggestion that she is "taking repeated 2-5 meter falls"?  All the videos I've seen of her show her under control, and spotted by her partner so she comes down under control.  From comments she has made, she is consciously avoiding falling.

Here's a video of her on Instagram, climbing on her due date!  Good for her, I say.  And it's no one else's business except her's, her partner's, and her medical advisers'.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cdlwl4fK4yv/

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 Bob Kemp 18 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:

>calling any counter opinion bullying is wrongheaded.

Not necessarily. I haven't seen the kinds of comments Shauna has been receiving but there's a world of difference between thoughtful and well-meant opinion, and deliberately vexatious trolling. And even in the 'well-meant' category there will be a huge range of opinions, from sensitive and informed to uninformed and stereotypical. I'm sure Shauna can tell the difference, and she's entitled to call out the worst kinds of online comment.

In reply to TomD89:

The consensus in the literature / faculty of sports & exercise medicine is that women should continue to exercise as normal during their pregnancy, provided there are no absolute contraindications. I would see no problem with advising a pregnant climber to continue climbing albeit in a modified way. The benefits of physical activity to the mother and foetus far outweigh the risks. In a climbing-specific context, I would happily encourage moderate-intensity bouldering with a focus on fun, socialising, and maintaining aerobic capacity with bouts of anaerobic power. Even strength and conditioning can and should be maintained - whilst there is incomplete evidence on the effect of repeated valsalva manouvre on foetal health, the core and pelvic floor benefits are really important for healthy delivery / combatting stress incontinence etc, and maintaining fitness is extremely beneficial

There is still a lot of taboo surrounding exercise and sport in pregnancy and the 'rest is best' approach is very outdated. Interestingly, much of the guidance still in use today stems from poor-quality studies from the 60s/70s/80s which produced overly-restrictive rules (mostly researched and set by male physicians and scientists of course!). These are now outdated and recent reviews have identified a lot of previously absolute contraindications are now relative and probably have minimal effect on mother/baby. High-level athletes whose bodies are used to intense physical training should absolutely continue to partake in physical activity, albeit with education of the contraindications to physical activity in mind and acknowledgement of the risks of the specific sport. Obviously Shauna isn't going to get on some necky run-out E8 but there should be no problem with sub-limit bouldering and gym / conditioning work. It mentions she's working with a physio, so sure she has good advice available to her. Obviously there is little evidence-based guidance specific to climbing, maybe there's scope for a future study there.

In reply to TomD89:

I shall file your post in my 'ukc examples of where an individual has raised legitimate, reasonable concerns and someone else with no experience has told them that it's all fine, it's all made up and they should just jolly well pull themselves together' file

Oh crap its full. 

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 Iamgregp 18 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:

Congratulations on being so far up your own arse that you think your opinions on Shauna's choices of what climbing she does whilst pregnant are more informed and better than the-two time World Champion Olympian's.

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 Andy Hardy 18 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:>

> Is there no risk to baby from taking repeated 2-5 meter falls and the jarring impacts associated?

5m falls? Exaggeration much?

I'd have thought the biggest risks will be injuries to Shauna as the "make me stretchy"* hormones kick in

*I'm not a doctor, obvs

1
 Kemics 18 May 2022
In reply to Bob Kemp:

I wish I had the self belief and confidence of some bloke trying to a mansplain to a two-time world champion and Olympic athlete about their own discipline. 

Am I a woman, pregnant, obstetrician, midwife or high level athlete? No. But I have done a bit of top roping, luv. So listen up 

3
 chris_r 18 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

I fail to get out of bed more often than someone of Shauna's caliber falls off a V4 problem. Great to see she can still enjoy the sport at a lower level after her years of dedicated Olympic training.

Plenty of responses unnecessarily vicious toward TomD89. Educating people respectfully is always more productive - there are plenty of understandable misconceptions about exercise in pregnancy because we've been told them for a long time by healthcare professionals. No point haranguing someone, that's precisely how these stereotypes get perpetuated as you just isolate peoples' opinions further and don't encourage learning and seeing other viewpoints. Have a sensible discussion.

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 john arran 18 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

The wannabe Daily Heil columnists are certainly showing their colours (along with their baseless opinions) on this thread!

4
In reply to chris_r:

> I fail to get out of bed more often than someone of Shauna's caliber falls off a V4 problem. Great to see she can still enjoy the sport at a lower level after her years of dedicated Olympic training.

I've climbed 'safe' for periods of rehab, like when I tore my MCL. I'm by no means an elite athlete, but I can safely boulder indoors without having to ever take a fall or jump off. More likely to injure myself walking down the stairs.....It's not exactly rocket science! 

1
 LastBoyScout 18 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:

My wife continued swimming all through her pregnancy and neither slipped on a wet floor or drowned.

I still remember the midwife, at our first appointment, reading through the list of activities that were "advised against" while pregnant and the expression in her eyes over the top of her glasses as she mentioned some of them (cycling in particular) was quite something. She knew she was being forced to read out a load of rubbish that sensible people could make an informed decision about whether to do it, or not, or with a cautious approach.

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 TomD89 18 May 2022
In reply to dig26 and thread:

I didn't say she should stop exercising or climbing, I even listed a few clearly safe forms of climbing and training for climbing, and a couple that would seem more sketchy and problematic (note Shauna also listed at least one form of climbing that she considers inappropriate while pregnant).

I didn't say anything in support of rest is best at all. Nowhere.

I made clear Shauna was almost certainly smart and sensible enough to manage in whatever choices she makes.

I listed a few other sports where I would suggest continuing would be a bad idea (skateboarding, ice hockey etc). Does anyone disagree with these examples, if not, why not?

Everyone seems to have gone into a limbic frenzy seeing that I had minor criticism of an article about a pregnant climber. Keep fighting the good fight guys, I'd rather discuss the details of the topic.

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 Offwidth 18 May 2022
In reply to dig26:

I think you are being too kind to Tom: normally people here start off kind with replies but it requires saintly patience when facing a posting history like his (just search). Its not like people haven't tried gentler education in the past.

What's your view on the NHS advice?.... I was pretty shocked frankly, especially given the tiny regard for how long the woman has been pregnant:

"As a general rule, you should be able to hold a conversation as you exercise when pregnant. If you become breathless as you talk, then you're probably exercising too strenuously.". .... this seems ludicrous advice for any standard of athlete... that's a rule of thumb for an aerobic theshold.

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 galpinos 18 May 2022
In reply to dig26:

Well said, with far more restraint than I would have managed!

 morpcat 18 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:

Yes, to your credit you did all of those things, but what you also did was fail to recognise (and seek to downplay and discredit) the pressure, judgement, and yes, bullying that women have experienced. That's why you've drawn criticism. 

3
OP deepsoup 18 May 2022
In reply to john arran:

I half expected that and almost didn't post the thread because of it, still disappointing though.  (It wouldn't surprise me at all if one or two of those who've been giving Shauna the benefit of their baseless opinions on Instagram and other social media are also posters here.)

I did post it though, because I thought there are also plenty of folk here (many of whom don't post but do read the forums) who would take pleasure like I did in seeing Shauna still climbing purely for the fun of it after her last few years of intense training (and rehab), and in seeing her looking so healthy and happy while she's at it.

OP deepsoup 18 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:

> I made clear Shauna was almost certainly smart and sensible enough to manage in whatever choices she makes.

Ha ha, that's gracious of you.

Shauna Coxsey MBE, elite climber, Olympian and most successful British competition climber ever "almost certainly" knows what she's doing, concedes confident UKC punter TomD89.

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 Howard J 18 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:

> I didn't say she should stop exercising or climbing, I even listed a few clearly safe forms of climbing and training for climbing, and a couple that would seem more sketchy and problematic (note Shauna also listed at least one form of climbing that she considers inappropriate while pregnant).

You're missing the point.  Unless you have relevant medical expertise (in which case it would have helped to mention it) you are not qualified to pontificate on what might or might not be "clearly safe".  Neither is it your place to advise her unless you are part of her support team.

> I listed a few other sports where I would suggest continuing would be a bad idea (skateboarding, ice hockey etc). Does anyone disagree with these examples, if not, why not?

It's not a question of agreeing with you or not.  It is for those with expertise in those sports to decide for themselves, with the help of appropriate medical advice. 

1
In reply to TomD89:

The false equivalence in your first paragraph is a handy red flag about the utter garbage that's about to follow.

No medical background, no experience of being a professional female athlete, no experience of being pregnant, no experience of dealing with half a million followers on social media.. no reason at all to place any value on your thoughts on this issue.

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 John_Hat 18 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:

Argh.

I log into UKC for the first time in 2 years and the first thing I see is some keyboard warrior bloke giving his opinion on what a woman should or should not do with her own body.

Edit: For the avoidance of doubt, my view here is that unless you are the woman concerned or her medical advisors, then the most appropriate course of action is to shut up as its none of your business.

Post edited at 19:30
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 Michael Gordon 18 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

> Ha ha, that's gracious of you.

> Shauna Coxsey MBE, elite climber, Olympian and most successful British competition climber ever "almost certainly" knows what she's doing, concedes confident UKC punter TomD89.

Another sarcastic comment. As has been said above, it's a pity folk can't have a discussion, disagree with one another, put forward different points of view etc, without unpleasantness.

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 Michael Gordon 18 May 2022
In reply to John_Hat:

> For the avoidance of doubt, my view here is that unless you are the woman concerned or her medical advisors, then the most appropriate course of action is to shut up as its none of your business.

What's the point in the thread then? I mean, it's none of any of our business.

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 John Kelly 18 May 2022
In reply to John_Hat:

' None of your business ' - I'm not sure that's ever true when you post online, it changes the position - you are kind of offering whatever you have done for comment 

 iccle_bully 18 May 2022
In reply to Michael Gordon:

The remarks on here made me really cross because as a female I face this low level sexism on a regular basis. Women speaks of being bullied for doing something, man says 'that's not bullying'. 

Having climbed through 2 pregnancies I know exactly what looks and back hand comments Shauna is talking about. People seem to think that as soon as you are pregnant they are perfectly entitled to have an opinion on your body (this gets worse when you become a parent but that's a whole other thread). This can take the form asking personal details, telling you how to look after yourself right through to complete strangers having a feel of your bump - imagine walking down the street and being stopped by someone who starts touching your stomach and asking you lots of questions.

Just because Shauna hasn't disclosed all the gory details does not mean that she hasn't been bullied. Just because you don't see it as bullying doesn't mean that the cumulative effect of those comments and looks doesn't feel like bullying.

Post edited at 20:10
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OP deepsoup 18 May 2022
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> What's the point in the thread then?

If you mean why is it here, I posted the link because I enjoyed the article and was pretty sure that others here would too.

I've found her a pretty inspiring character throughout her climbing career, but had no idea that she's imminently about to become a mum, so thought others would find that interesting as I did, and I thought others would also be pleased to see that she's apparently happy and healthy and is continuing to climb (for her) easy stuff just for the pure joy of it now that her competition career is over.

I didn't think the mildly depressing bit about people being judgemental and posting bullying comments on her social media was the more important part of the article tbh, though I had no problem at all imagining the sort of comments she was talking about. 

There really wasn't any need for anyone to pipe up and give us such clear examples right here in this thread of sad individuals feeling strangely entitled and somehow qualified to mansplain to her (and the rest of us) what she should and shouldn't be doing with her own body.

4
 mark s 18 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

Someone get this tomd bloke a big tub of aloe Vera for his burns. Burns he has rightly received for such comments.

5
In reply to TomD89:

> I listed a few other sports where I would suggest continuing would be a bad idea (skateboarding, ice hockey etc). Does anyone disagree with these examples, if not, why not?

What you haven't done is explained why a pregnant woman competing in MMA is remotely relevant to the discussion. Perhaps once you've done that, people may engage with your argument in good faith.

The very first words in your post, literally the very first, are to doubt Shauna's own experience by describing it as "so called bullying". Perhaps consider that, and reflect on why your post has been poorly received.

 Misha 19 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:

I’m sure Shauna has a pretty good idea of what is or isn’t appropriate and doesn’t need the rest of us to offer our opinions.

2
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Another sarcastic comment. As has been said above, it's a pity folk can't have a discussion, disagree with one another, put forward different points of view etc, without unpleasantness.

Should folk really be having a discussion at all about what an identifiable specific third person chooses to do with their own body?

2
In reply to TomD89:

Scaling the North Face of the Eiger when you're pregnant is one thing. Easy indoor bouldering and downclimbing on jugs and being spotted by your husband when you are Shauna Coxsey is quite another. She's not going to come off stuff like that, V3 for her is like walking down the stairs for a normal person.

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OP deepsoup 19 May 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Absolutely correct, but slightly beside the point. It would still be her decision to make even if she weren't Shauna Coxsey (with or without her husband).

It's a pretty safe assumption that a pregnant woman climbing knows what she's doing and knows her own body so for any random person tempted to offer unsolicited advice, overconfident opinionated middle aged blokes especially, there should be an *extremely* strong presumption that the best approach to that situation would be to just wind your neck in and mind your own business!

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 wintertree 19 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:

> The parents choice is fine, but calling any counter opinion bullying is wrongheaded.

If confident negative comments are made in public against an individual by some internet gobshite with no semblance of a professional background relevant to the issue, I think bullying is a pretty good term.  Some other possible terms:

  • Harassment
  • Mansplaining
  • Noise
  • Yammer
  • Unpleasant
  • Unnecessary
  • Trolling

It's not the counter-opinion that's the problem, it's the confident proclamations about what a woman should do with her body made in public by third parties from a position of ignorance that's the problem.

Post edited at 09:09
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In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Scaling the North Face of the Eiger when you're pregnant is one thing. Easy indoor bouldering and downclimbing on jugs and being spotted by your husband when you are Shauna Coxsey is quite another. She's not going to come off stuff like that, V3 for her is like walking down the stairs for a normal person.

I'd trust her on a V3 over me coming down the stairs in one piece any day

In reply to timparkin:

> I'd trust her on a V3 over me coming down the stairs in one piece any day

Just hope there are less spinners than at a wall I used to go to

4
In reply to deepsoup:

> It's a pretty safe assumption that a pregnant woman climbing knows what she's doing and knows her own body

Absolutely.  Women, and pregnancies, come in all shapes and sizes, and generalisation in this case is the very definition of mansplaining.  My wife was still seconding South African 22 (about E4 6a) at 7 months (her only concession was that she wasn't leading by then) and her general level of fitness was a reflected in her rapid recovery from her C-section.  Totally up to how comfortable she felt. 

If she'd wanted to spend her pregnancy lying by the pool that would have been fine too (no chance!) 

1
 TomD89 19 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

> It's a pretty safe assumption that a pregnant woman climbing knows what she's doing and knows her own body so for any random person tempted to offer unsolicited advice, overconfident opinionated middle aged blokes especially, there should be an *extremely* strong presumption that the best approach to that situation would be to just wind your neck in and mind your own business!

What advice was offered? Are you taking "slabs might be a bit risky" or "do repeated falls have a potential for harm?" as me giving a medical lecture directly to Shauna Coxsey, or indeed all pregnant women? That's a fair interpretation *insert funny look here*.

Clearly it's her decision what she does, but pretending like no-one is allowed any opinion (not a say in the matter, not a right to intervene, just a pretty run of the mill opinion) is quite ridiculous.

You've not really addressed anything posted, just gone on a little tirade/crusade against all middle aged blokes because I have some minor reservations about certain aspects of high intensity sports while pregnant. Does Shauna need you (presumably some middle aged bloke readily offering his own opinions on the matter) defending her from some mild and partial disagreement by attacking a sexist strawman of your own construction? I doubt it. 

I'll leave my neck out so you have something to chew on, you're clearly starving for social injustices to fight and scavenging for any morsel no matter how small. Perhaps next I'll suggest the husband of a pregnant woman should have some say in how the mother purports herself during the pregnancy (boo/hiss). deepsoup interpretation "misogynist punter suggests women should be stripped of all human rights".

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 john arran 19 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:

>  you're clearly starving for social injustices to fight 

Probably a better place to be than starving for attention in lieu of respect.

4
In reply to TomD89:

> Clearly it's her decision what she does, but pretending like no-one is allowed any opinion (not a say in the matter, not a right to intervene, just a pretty run of the mill opinion) is quite ridiculous.

People are allowed opinions, but opinions are far from equal, and in this case I think you're putting a far too much value in your own, which is both irrelevant and unqualified.

Shauna's opinion, in contrast, is highly qualified not just due to the fact it's her body, but also because that she has significantly more experience climbing within that body - hence knows what it's capable of. Whilst this is something of a side note, she also has a team of professionals surrounding her - including a women's health physio - who can offer further informed opinions on what she should and shouldn't do.

As such, everyone has their opinion, but yours simply comes across like an idiot with a foghorn, as opposed to someone making informed and educated choices.

5
 Offwidth 19 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:

Who' exactly is blocking your opinion Tom? Just as you have the right to display your ridiculous concerns here (that contradict the clear advice taken by Shauna, who is an exemplar of a super-elite athlete), we also have a right to point out why they are ridiculous.

I've seen time and time again how what can happen (on social media and in public) really angers pregnant friends and it really puzzles me why some men feel it's OK to give unsolicited negative advice to pregnant strangers.  Shauna's case is an unusual example, given her exceptional skill levels and where very significant advice based action was spelt out in black and white in the article.

5
 montyjohn 19 May 2022
In reply to iccle_bully:

> Having climbed through 2 pregnancies I know exactly what looks and back hand comments Shauna is talking about.

I just want to try and balance the conversation here. I'm not saying that climbing whilst pregnant doesn't attract criticism as I know it does, but I would hate for soon to be mothers who enjoy climbing to read these posts and expect a back-lash if they continue climbing as a guaranteed outcome as I don't believe this is the case.

I'm sure there are plenty of nasty encounters, but I'd like to propose that this is not the norm and others shouldn't be put off by something that is hopefully unlikely to happen.

My wife climbed up to 40 weeks for our first. We didn't climb for our second child, as the first one was running around everywhere like a maniac. How did you manage to climb for the second? I need this knowledge. I'll get back on topic now.

We discussed it and decided not to lead or boulder and just stick to top ropes. Actually, I tell a lie, we did some very easy trad and a couple of sport routes, but nothing challenging where a fall was likely. This worked for us.

Feedback from the climbing community was all positive. I'm not saying that some people weren't horrified, I'm sure they were, but we didn't know about it. The only people that said anything out loud had positive things to say which was really nice and we didn't notice any starring. To be honest, we wouldn't have cared so maybe we weren't looking for it. Not 100% sure on that one.

The only people that made comments that we're negative we're friends and family who don't climb and don't understand that the hazards we're almost fully mitigated. Whilst it does get annoying having to repeatedly explain why what we are doing isn't dangerous, they we're speaking out with our best interests in mind. One reason why it's annoying is if anything did happen, there would be a told you so moment, at least in our minds. But I'm of the opinion that to mitigate all risk means not getting in a car for example. So not practical.

Unfortunately for Shauna, being in the public eye the above is irrelevant, as the interweb trolls are lurking everywhere, but for us commoners, I assume you're a commoner, are you? The fact it wasn't a mostly positive experience for you I suspect was you being unlucky and therefore this shouldn't deter others who will hopefully have a mostly positive experience.

 ExiledScot 19 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

It's the internets fault, 30 years ago how many of these opinionated people would have gone to the trouble of writing a letter to her and buying a stamp to post it. She's better off just deleting and blocking the loons, life's too short to be dealing with idiot's views. 

In reply to TomD89:

> Clearly it's her decision what she does, but pretending like no-one is allowed any opinion (not a say in the matter, not a right to intervene, just a pretty run of the mill opinion) is quite ridiculous.

You have every right to hold an opinion, but some opinions should be held privately. You have no right to throw your uninformed opinion out there to the general world about an actual person's body and life, and the choices they make with regards to them. Would you be happy with your partner's private choices becoming idle debate online? How do you think Shauna might feel to stumble upon this thread herself?

6
 montyjohn 19 May 2022
In reply to tehmarks:

> You have no right to throw your uninformed opinion out there to the general world about an actual person's body and life

This really isn't true.

If we can't share our views publicly how can we know and test how others are going to react to it.

It's one thing to direct an insult or criticism to somebody, but as I recall, his post was a more general view.

Sharing an opinion in a public forum is a great way of gauging how your view compares to others whilst getting feedback to either develop your view further, change it entirely or find a better way to communicate it.

Post edited at 11:53
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 Offwidth 19 May 2022
In reply to montyjohn:

>This really isn't true.

Actually it can be true at times and in extremis is called libel. Tom could easily have expressed his opinions without personalising them. Our rights to free discussion do not include a right to say what the hell we like about others.

If only Tom didn't seem to regularly want a right to spout complete nonsense without facing being called out on it, he might be treated more kindly here. He is clearly not an idiot as he seems to expertly tread a certain line: the worst of such posts get deleted by the moderators.

Post edited at 12:06
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In reply to montyjohn:

Debating the rights and wrongs of exercising while pregnant sounds like a great topic for debate.

Debating the rights and wrongs of a specific person's pregnancy choices is, in my opinion, not really on. It isn't made any more on by them being well-known or a public figure.

It's a very personal thing to be idly speculating and proffering fully informed opinions on, isn't it? Not really any different to a bunch of random strangers having a pic debate about your hypothetical erectile dysfunction and its effect on your partner. Is that on?

 montyjohn 19 May 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> Actually it can be true at times and in extremis is called libel. Tom could easily have expressed his opinions without personalising them.

But Tom was disagreeing with Shauna's opinion that she put in the public domain. He wasn't accusing her of anything as far as i could tell. He challenged her message.

I don't agree with his view, but I think his words are perfectly acceptable discussion.

Maybe I'm missing something but if you can quote a line that can be considered personal bullying then I'll fully agree with you, but I couldn't spot one following a quick glance over it again.

Let's look at the positives here, we've got more support for women to follow their passion whilst pregnant than criticism. Without Tom's opposite view, we wouldn't have collated the positive responses. 

6
In reply to tehmarks:

For the benefit of clarity, fully uninformed* and pic=public*. Autocorrelation can do one.

 Offwidth 19 May 2022
In reply to montyjohn:

Really?

He implied as a minimum that the bullying claimed was exaggerated.

He got involved in personal whataboutary on MMA, wine bottles, her ability to control risks on slabs and irresponsibly taking falls on boulder problems that I'd be amazed if she would take more than a very occasional fall on, if at all.

I simply don't need UKC, especially such posts from Tom, to tell me most clmbers are supportive of pregnant climbers, nor that pregnant women face too much shit from strangers. I feel sorry for people who don't realise these issues... do they never talk to women who are pregnant or have had kids.

What Alison did was indeed way more dangerous but most progressive's issue with that debate was the completely disproportionate level of flak she received compared to men taking equal or greater risks. All climbing involves some risk and in the greater range new routing those risks can be very significant.

I'd encourage debate here but not childish personal pot shots.

Post edited at 13:11
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 montyjohn 19 May 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> He implied as a minimum that the bullying claimed was exaggerated.

But that's his view. It may not be an accurate view, or a view you like, but it's his view, and not a personal attack.

> He got involved in personal whataboutary on MMA, wine bottles

Maybe we read this differently, but he was using those as hypothetical examples so irrelevant.

> I'd encourage debate here but not childish personal pot shots.

So here's the thing. If you said, "I enjoy axe throwing" and I responded in a manner of "I wouldn't, it's not safe, axes are sharp you know, blah blah blah", that is not a personal attack. This is how Tom responded.

If I responded, "you're an idiot for throwing axes, your stupid for wanting to throw axes and you're clearly trying to kill your children" that is a personal "pot shot".

Tom may well be thinking the latter, I don't know, but it's not what he said. I think you're taking offence to what you think he believes, not what he's saying.

2
 Iamgregp 19 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:

> Clearly it's her decision what she does, but pretending like no-one is allowed any opinion (not a say in the matter, not a right to intervene, just a pretty run of the mill opinion) is quite ridiculous.

Nobody said you aren't allowed to have an opinion Tom.  But then we're also allowed to have an opinion on what you've said.  

Post edited at 13:54
 Fellover 19 May 2022
In reply to anyone who knows something about pregnancy and exercise:

I don't really know lots about going through pregnancy. Is advice to not do too much exercise during pregnancy* supposed to be for the benefit of the baby or the pregnant person?

I have no idea how resilient a typical fetus is to the accelerations that come with most exercise, or the difference that exercise makes to blood supply to the placenta (if it makes any difference atall?), or indeed how resilient they are to other things I haven't thought about.

Similarly I have no idea if being pregnant typically makes doing exercise disproportionately more exhausting (though I'd have thought individuals could work out for themselves whether it was a problem), or in some way lowers immune system levels of protection making tired people more vulnerable, or makes people more vulnerable to injury somehow, or something else.

Or is not doing too much exercise just a piece of advice which has no good evidence behind it atall?

As you can probably tell I'm not a doctor.

For clarity, I'm not trying to comment on Shauna's choice to climb while pregnant, I have absolutely no idea whether her climbing makes any difference to her baby or not. Also, I'm not imminently going to be involved in a pregnancy, so no need to tell me to seek proper advice from a more qualified source than UKC  Just interested.

* https://www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/keeping-well/exercise/ says to exercise but "Do not exhaust yourself."

Post edited at 13:55
1
 montyjohn 19 May 2022
In reply to Fellover:

> Is advice to not do too much exercise during pregnancy* supposed to be for the benefit of the baby or the pregnant person?

I believe the current advise is to continue to do exercise you would normally do, but with less intensity. The recommendation is not to start any new activities. One of the reasons for this is mother is more prone to joint injuries, tendons etc.

> I have no idea how resilient a typical fetus is to the accelerations that come with most exercise

Women who run, can continue running (again, tonned down a bit) so appears to be a non issue. Jogging can be pretty bouncy.

1
 Uncle Derek 19 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

Having read the article, the bit that concerns me most, and I suspect are relevant to many climbers are the final words.

 “If I don’t climb for a week, I really don’t feel good. I need to climb, for my body and my mind.”

I suspect many of us can relate to this, and assume it is people with other passions can relate to of any Gender.

At some point we may not be able to climb, due to work, family, health, age, or whatever, so maybe not being too dependent on climbing is a good thing to work towards.

2
 Offwidth 19 May 2022
In reply to montyjohn:

Why does he claim the bullying is exaggerated without any evidence beyond his opinion? Social media accounts are in the public domain, so it's easy enough to assess?

The words and arguments he actually used are bad enough for the reasons I described, irrespective of the intent behind them. I see your example as more whataboutary... I see the climbing described as normal daily exercise for Shauna taking sensible precautions as a pregnant woman....more like say going walking for a non athletic pregnant woman than a ludicrous metaphorical axe throwing.

Why is there a need to bring judgemental attitudes and exaggerated hypotheticals (whataboutary) into such a debate?

9
 Offwidth 19 May 2022
In reply to Uncle Derek:

That's a particular path of addiction. We don't need asceticism to avoid that nasty end and most of us can enjoy our own movement in rock well into old age. Even when we lose that ability we can still healthily enjoy climbing vicariously through others.

2
 montyjohn 19 May 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> I see your example as more whataboutary...

> Why is there a need to bring judgemental attitudes and exaggerated hypotheticals (whataboutary) into such a debate?

I didn't, I used axe throwing as an example to explain the difference between somebody having a view/opinion and somebody making a personal judgment as I wanted to make it independent of the climbing concerns raise above.

Once again, you've drawn your own conclusion and haven't read what I actually said. If you want to know my views, try reading some of my previous posts in this thread.

6
 Yanis Nayu 19 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

This thread is UKC at its sanctimonious best. 

1
 Offwidth 19 May 2022
In reply to montyjohn:

I'm aware of your opinions (although slightly puzzled why you didn't share childcare at the crag with friends during the second pregnancy): what confuses me is why you are continuing to defend Tom. 

You must know bullying of pregnant sportswomen exists.  Some people beleive even moderate exercise is totally wrong, based only on their own idiotic views or beliefs and are determined to proselytise on the internet, sometimes in highly insulting terms, occasionally involving threats. Internet bullying around exercise in pregnancy is very real. The science indicates even vigorous exercise into the third trimester doesn't seem to be an issue for the majority of pregnant women.

https://bmcpregnancychildbirth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12884-019-2441-1

Post edited at 16:01
2
 Iamgregp 19 May 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> Why does he claim the bullying is exaggerated without any evidence beyond his opinion? Social media accounts are in the public domain, so it's easy enough to assess?

Whilst his heart's in the right place, before any goes off and tries to follow Offwidth's advice to go and "assess"....

Private messages, where the worst of the trolls do their work, are not in the public domain. 

Secondly it's possible to delete other people's comments made under your own instagram posts, so it's possible they have been deleted by Shauna.

If Shauna says she's received bullying messages, then she has.  

1
 Offwidth 19 May 2022
In reply to Iamgregp:

Sure but this specific bullying problem goes well beyond Shauna's experiences on Instagram and there is enough visible to know its real without the deleted or hidden nastier stuff. UKC moderation would prevent anything bad here, so we just get foolish whataboutary and accusations of exaggeration.

I'm really glad Shauna is speaking up about it so more are aware of the problem.

1
 montyjohn 19 May 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> although slightly puzzled why you didn't share childcare at the crag with friends during the second pregnancy

We don't have any climbers in our nearby friendship groups. Our climbing mates are all northerners.

> You must know bullying of pregnant sportswomen exists.

Of course.

> Some people beleive even moderate exercise is totally wrong

And that's ok. Plenty women hold this view. My wife's sister is one of them, their mother was another. It's not an awful view to hold. Let people hold and share that view if that's what they believe. Counter it with science, and if they are not convinced that's fine. It doesn't mean they are bad people and need to be piled on by an entire forum community.

That's why I'm defending Tom, he didn't say anything horrendous (I'm not reading his post again to double check). All he said was something you and I don't agree with. But that's ok. 

2
 Michael Gordon 19 May 2022
In reply to Uncle Derek:

> Having read the article, the bit that concerns me most, and I suspect are relevant to many climbers are the final words.

>  “If I don’t climb for a week, I really don’t feel good. I need to climb, for my body and my mind.”>

Considering how much climbing she has done over many years, that sounds like withdrawal symptoms. Dave MacLeod has talked about getting itchy feet (not literally) without doing any climbing for a couple of days and puts it down to that. He compares it to any physical activity some might do every day, e.g. going for a walk, and this habit developing over many years into a real need and a feeling of deprivation if forced to go without.

 BRILLBRUM 19 May 2022
In reply to LastBoyScout:

I'd counter this with the fact that my wife had to give up exercise on the recommendation of the quack, walked out of the Dr's and back in to her school and promptly slipped on a greasy duck board, put between portakabins for H&S reasons, and bounced of the bump. So it wasn't the exercise that got her!

Somehow I think Shauna's approach to exercise, risk mitigation, and the health and wellbeing of her bump goes far beyond what we or our partners might put in place.

 Michael Gordon 19 May 2022
In reply to montyjohn:

> Sharing an opinion in a public forum is a great way of gauging how your view compares to others whilst getting feedback to either develop your view further, change it entirely or find a better way to communicate it.

Exactly. That's really well put. Unfortunately the response of many here has basically been a series of variations on "shut up, it's none of your business", which is hardly a useful message for a public forum.

1
 Moacs 19 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

Article is ok but I wish I hadn't opened this ugly thread

 TizzyA 19 May 2022
In reply to Fellover:

I climbed a lot throughout my first pregnancy and continued but less frequently in subsequent pregnancies (because of childcare) and had a positive experience. I've never had any negative comments either. I definitely felt healthier when I was climbing more - although I'm not really sure on the direction of causality as I made less effort to go climbing when I was feeling more tired etc and it was probably a bit of a vicious circle. In my own experience, climbing is the safest form of exercise I have done while pregnant (e.g. I've slipped on black ice while walking on a pavement). Personally I just top-rope from 2nd trimester onwards, but that's because I enjoy climbing at my limit on a rope more than climbing really carefully on easy stuff without one.

The NHS advice to exercise but not get out of breath is not evidence-based as far as I can tell. Research on a combination of aerobic and anaerobic exercise compared with just aerobic suggests that doing both is more protective against hypertension (and by extension possibly pre-eclampsia) than just doing aerobic exercise. Vigorous exercise does not seem to impair fetal growth and is protective against gestational diabetes. There is also evidence suggesting that regular exercise during pregnancy improves birth outcomes for mother and baby, and improves mental health for the mother. Advice about not starting a new form of exercise is probably more for the mother's sake than the baby's although I'm not sure whether that advice is evidence-based either, but your body does change a lot so you would probably be more likely to get injured as ligaments loosen up and I suppose you're also less likely to be able to tell the difference between normal aches and pains from a new sport and something wrong. Surprisingly, I've found climbing seems to help with pelvic-girdle-pain, when you would think that it would exacerbate it based on the types of movement you are advised to avoid. In general, I'm not convinced the average doctor is likely to know much about the research on exercise in pregnancy so may be just as likely as the general population to make non-evidence-based assumptions about what is unsafe.

 Ciro 19 May 2022
In reply to montyjohn:

> That's why I'm defending Tom, he didn't say anything horrendous (I'm not reading his post again to double check). All he said was something you and I don't agree with. But that's ok. 

Personally, I think it was pretty horrendous to start talking about "child safety" with regards to what a pregnant person should or shouldn't be doing.

Their body, their choice, not for us to judge - and carrying a parasitic life form doesn't change that.

8
OP deepsoup 19 May 2022
In reply to Moacs:

Yeah, sorry about that.

 Howard J 19 May 2022
In reply to montyjohn:

> That's why I'm defending Tom, he didn't say anything horrendous (I'm not reading his post again to double check). All he said was something you and I don't agree with. But that's ok. 

Perhaps he said nothing horrendous, but he was directly critical of Shauna's climbing and basically said she shouldn't even be climbing slabs and should only be doing traversing, fingerboarding , upper body work (pullups etc) and lowball boulder problems on a training board or similar.  Never mind that she is an elite athlete and expert climber who is being advised by a specialist women’s health physiotherapist, he knows better.

It's not a question of not agreeing with his opinions - I don't know anything about exercise in pregnancy either. It's whether it's appropriate to criticise a woman for making her own informed decisions about her body.

1
 Offwidth 19 May 2022
In reply to TizzyA:

This is a  US blog from 2009 that looked at myths and facts then (some of which contradicts the areas of current NHS advice I raised concerns about above)

https://www.webmd.com/baby/features/exercise-during-pregnancy-myth-vs-fact

I like the intro that reminds us how backward advice could be not so long before:

"In the not-so-distant past, women were urged to cut down on or even avoid exercise during pregnancy. Today, we know differently. Not only is it OK to participate in fitness activities during pregnancy, but doing so can have a positive impact on both baby and mom.

"You need to be physically active during pregnancy. It has terrific benefits that are associated with a better pregnancy outcome and even shorter labors. It's a win-win for baby and for mom," says high-risk pregnancy expert Laura Riley, MD, spokeswoman for the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) and author of Pregnancy: You and Your Baby.

Yet it seems that myths surrounding fitness and pregnancy just won't go away. Indeed, experts say that truisms about what's safe and what's not abound, leaving many women confused and ill-advised.

"There are so many rumors out there, some started or perpetuated by popular pregnancy books, others the result of old wives' tales or outdated advice, so that many women really are confused about what they can and can't do," says Riley."

Post edited at 18:49
2
 Yanis Nayu 19 May 2022
In reply to Ciro:

> Personally, I think it was pretty horrendous to start talking about "child safety" with regards to what a pregnant person should or shouldn't be doing.

> Their body, their choice, not for us to judge - and carrying a parasitic life form doesn't change that.

What an utterly bizarre viewpoint. 

5
 Michael Gordon 19 May 2022
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Maybe they've just read Midwich Cuckoos?

 artif 19 May 2022
In reply to TomD89:

>

> I listed a few other sports where I would suggest continuing would be a bad idea (skateboarding, ice hockey etc). Does anyone disagree with these examples, if not, why not?

I cant say the mrs was skateboarding while pregnant but I wouldn't have had a problem with it. I did take my boy skateboarding from about six months though, he would be on my board between my legs. Paddle-boarding surfing, swimming etc as well.

1
 montyjohn 19 May 2022
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> What an utterly bizarre viewpoint.

I couldn't decide if it was sarcasm or not 

In reply to Ciro:

> Their body, their choice, not for us to judge - and carrying a parasitic life form doesn't change that.

The idea that a baby at the end of pregnancy isn't an individual person is just as bizarre and extreme as the idea that a cluster of cells just after conception is.

Post edited at 21:17
 freeheel47 19 May 2022
In reply to dig26:

You are the Dalai Lama and I claim my £5.

 jkarran 19 May 2022
In reply to Uncle Derek:

> At some point we may not be able to climb, due to work, family, health, age, or whatever, so maybe not being too dependent on climbing is a good thing to work towards.

When the time comes it's ok. Climbing was my life for near 20 years then it wasn't and life moved on then on again. I wouldn't worry too much about it, the memories are priceless. 

Jk

 Michael Gordon 19 May 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> The idea that a baby at the end of pregnancy isn't an individual person is just as bizarre and extreme as the idea that a cluster of cells just after conception is.

The above is surely a matter of opinion. It's the 'parasitic' bit I would question!

In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Exactly. That's really well put. Unfortunately the response of many here has basically been a series of variations on "shut up, it's none of your business", which is hardly a useful message for a public forum.

Maybe not useful, but it is true. It is none of our business. The only opinion that counts in this instance is that of Shauna Coxsey and her partner 

3
 Michael Gordon 20 May 2022
In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

You're correct of course, but then this is a discussion forum.

2

You lot do realise how many women are reading this forum and thinking, 'ffs I *still* can't comment on UKC', right? 

2
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Do you mind if I start discussing your private life in depth then? That's alright, right? It is a discussion forum after all.

This is the online equivalent of being that sad person who has nothing better to do than gossip baselessly about all of the village to all of the rest of the village.

Post edited at 02:16
1
 Michael Gordon 20 May 2022
In reply to tehmarks:

Are you saying that a discussion about what may or may not be a 'good idea' during latter stages of pregnancy should be out of bounds? I'm not sure it needs to be about a specific individual.

4
 montyjohn 20 May 2022
In reply to Queen of the Traverse:

> You lot do realise how many women are reading this forum and thinking, 'ffs I *still* can't comment on UKC', right? 

I don't get this comment.

Why do you think this thread suggests women can't comment on UKC? Just because men have opinions doesn't mean women can't. In fact, the few women that have commented have had a lot of up-votes. 

12
 montyjohn 20 May 2022
In reply to Howard J:

> It's whether it's appropriate to criticise a woman for making her own informed decisions about her body.

I don't believe anybody should be beyond criticism. It wouldn't be something I would choose to do, especially on the topic in hand, but I don't think it should be off the table for those that have strong opinions on the subject. It shouldn't matter if it's a man or a woman either. 

Just to note, he "Tom" never actually criticized her. He never said she was a terrible person etc. He criticized her choices and there is a difference.

10
In reply to montyjohn:

> I don't believe anybody should be beyond criticism. It wouldn't be something I would choose to do, especially on the topic in hand, but I don't think it should be off the table for those that have strong opinions on the subject. It shouldn't matter if it's a man or a woman either. 

Re-read my previous post, but replace the word 'opinion' for 'criticism'.

Whilst I get what you're saying about people not beyond beyond criticism, when it comes from people who are completely unqualified to comment, is it all that surprising (or wrong) when they're challenged on their views?!  Having a strong opinion doesn't necessarily mean it's a valid opinion.

If you don't get why women wouldn't want to post on this thread, it's because many posts - including yours - are utterly abhorrent to read, particularly from a female perspective. The reason why the women who have posted have received a lot of up-votes, and you've received a lot of down-votes, is because of how massively off the mark your opinion is on the matter.

Were there to be a positive that has come from this thread it's that some of the ignorant opinions that are out there have been (rightly) challenged and called out for what they are. 

Post edited at 09:43
9
 montyjohn 20 May 2022
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> Whilst I get what you're saying about people not beyond beyond criticism, when it comes from people who are completely unqualified to comment, is it all that surprising (or wrong) when they're challenged on their views?! 

I think it's great when views are challenged and absolutely promote it. This is how we all get a wide depth of viewpoints to draw from. Unfortunately, and I think Michael Gordon said it best when he said:

> Unfortunately the response of many here has basically been a series of variations on "shut up, it's none of your business".

I find it a really sad state where it seems the majority of contributors (at least on this thread) hold a view that people can't have and share an opinion unless they are qualified. That would be a horrible world should it come fruition. 

Post edited at 10:21
8
 Howard J 20 May 2022
In reply to montyjohn:

> Just to note, he "Tom" never actually criticized her. He never said she was a terrible person etc. He criticized her choices and there is a difference.

Yes, it's the difference between abuse and criticism.  Criticising her choices is still criticising her though, and criticism which he is neither qualified nor entitled to make.

In reply to Michael Gordon

> Are you saying that a discussion about what may or may not be a 'good idea' during latter stages of pregnancy should be out of bounds? I'm not sure it needs to be about a specific individual.

A discussion between people who have no expertise in the subject is likely to be pointless and end up reinforcing old wives' tales.  And the problem with this discussion is that it has been about a specific individual.

In reply to montyjohn:

> I find it a really sad state where it seems the majority of contributors (at least on this thread) hold a view that people can't have and share an opinion unless they are qualified.

Shouldn't those who are unqualified, rather than stating their therefore worthless opinion/prejudice say something more like "This is interesting but I don't know much about it. Maybe those who are qualified to do so could give us an informed opinion on the safe limits of physical activity during pregnancy."

In reply to jkarran:

> When the time comes it's ok. Climbing was my life for near 20 years then it wasn't and life moved on then on again. I wouldn't worry too much about it, the memories are priceless. 

I think it is something that many of us worry about a lot as we get older or with a change in circumstances. And quite rightly; I think a lot of people for whom climbing and the mountains are a huge part of their life really struggle with letting go a bit and it is something they need to manage very carefully for their own wellbeing.

Anyway, probably a whole other interesting thread..........

 Iamgregp 20 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

You're absolutely right.

There does seem to be this attitude in online spaces of totally unqualified people seeming to think that their opinion is just as valid as someone with with experience in the field, and that because they have a right to this opinion it ought to be heard, and given consideration just like those of the experts.

This of course leads to outrage when they are inevitably told "shut the f*ck up, you don't know what you're talking about" (though perhaps in not so many words!).

I actually think it's quite dangerous.  No doubt people died or became seriously ill in the pandemic as online spaces were so full of sh!tty hot-takes and unqualified opinion about the virus, that it helped drown out the correct messaging of the people with actual knowledge.

OP deepsoup 20 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Anyway, probably a whole other interesting thread..........

Refreshingly, one on which the UKC cohort of opinionated old men would actually be qualified to comment.  I'd give it half a dozen posts before it descended into blatant willy waving though.

1
 montyjohn 20 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Shouldn't those who are unqualified, rather than stating their therefore worthless opinion/prejudice say something more like "This is interesting but I don't know much about it.

No, disagree.

All options are worthwhile as they allow counter arguments which add to the knowledge pool.

Interestingly, keeping things inline with your "Expert" theory, Tom does have some expertise. Worth noting, nobody is an expert in everything and it takes multiple experts to solve most problems.

Tom, has quite rightly highlighted some of the risks with climbing. I would argue that he has enough climbing knowledge to provide some expert knowledge on unique climbing risks. Falling on a slab when pregnant would be a real risk that needs to be mitigated. I doubt there is any argument there. Would your doctor know about unique climbing risks? Doubtful.

That leaves the door open for another expert to say how much of a risk is it really? I don't think we've ascertained that from this thread, but it would great to get an answer?

We've had a few people come forward, my wife's story included about how some of these risks have been mitigated. Something others may want to consider, or not, it's up to them.

You're not going to find someone who's an expert in fetus health, sport activities, climbing and a UKC member. Well you might, but it's really unlikely. The article in question didn't provide answers to all these concerns, that's why there's a discussion.

6
 Offwidth 20 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

I'd rather we stick to responding to specific opinions, especially those that are clearly groundless. There are plenty of 'opinionated old men' on UKC who have significant expertise and experience on specific subjects.

I certainly wouldn't claim expertise but I do have experience helping pregnant women deal with anything from illegal process to dumb attitudes. When I stated as a young academic union rep I soon realised I was guilty of naivety.  I assumed a University of all places would always follow their own processes on such a protected category, let alone the law. When you see the impact of contractual injustice, or even just patriarchal othering and mansplaining,  it certainly generates a strong awareness and interest in the subject. The same would apply to discriminatory practice, sexual harassment and a number of other subjects where I'm glad women are speaking up much more. 

2

We get a lot of feedback that these forums can feel very unwelcoming toward women and I must admit, certain posts in this thread have me banging my head against the wall. 

An early post brought into question someone's lived experience of bullying. Further on, someone has commented on how the forums aren't a great place for women and the reaction is to dismiss this rather than seek to find out why. This is the definition of gaslighting.

Monty, your idea that all ill-informed opinions should be presented, without seeking to consolidate any form of knowledge in said area, simply baffles me - we've had enough of experts?

In the future, I think we'll be taking a much tougher moderation stance in threads like these. We want the UKC Forums to be a welcoming place for all.

Post edited at 11:32
5
In reply to Michael Gordon:

But we're not having 'a discussion about what may or may not be a 'good idea' during latter stages of pregnancy'. We're having a discussion about Shauna Coxsey.

 Fellover 20 May 2022
In reply to Nick Brown - UKC:

> Monty, your idea that all ill-informed opinions should be presented, without seeking to consolidate any form of knowledge in said area, simply baffles me - we've had enough of experts?

Whilst I agree with the general thrust of your post, from my reading of Monty's posts in this thread I don't think this is a fair summary of Monty's position.

2
OP deepsoup 20 May 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

Ha - "not all men" is basically what you're saying. 

Well, more specifically "not all opinionated old men" obvs.

Of course I don't mean all opinionated old men, and obviously I welcome opinions based on 'significant expertise and experience on specific subjects'.  Those aren't the kind of opinions that make threads such as this one so tiresome.

> I'm glad women are speaking up much more.

Not on here they're not, they seem to be speaking up much less than they used to.  And who can blame them really, UKC seems to be in danger of slipping behind some sort of old white male gobshite event horizon into a space where it's all "patriarchal othering and mansplaining", all the time.

Post edited at 12:08
1
 Fellover 20 May 2022
In reply to TizzyA:

Thanks for the reply Interesting stuff.

 Uncle Derek 20 May 2022
In reply to Nick Brown - UKC:

IMHO, you could have and should have locked this thread ASAP, there was only one way this thread was going. Any opinion counter to the articles thrust could only be construed as a personal criticism of Shauna, and if that was by a man, doubly so.
I do think that generally UKCs light touch moderation strikes a good balance, but this was always going to be a Road Crash.

The comment about an Unborn Baby being a Parasite is from my perspective one of the most grossly offensive things I have ever seen posted on UKC, but it seems that other people have a different perspective.
 

1
 Howard J 20 May 2022
In reply to montyjohn:

> Tom, has quite rightly highlighted some of the risks with climbing. I would argue that he has enough climbing knowledge to provide some expert knowledge on unique climbing risks. Falling on a slab when pregnant would be a real risk that needs to be mitigated.

Mitigation doesn't mean avoiding an activity, or none of us would get out of bed. It means taking proportionate steps to avoid the risk and minimise the consequences.  In climbing, if a fall would present a risk the obvious mitigation is not to fall in the first place. You'd only not climb at all if you thought the moves were so hard you couldn't avoid falling. 

> Would your doctor know about unique climbing risks? Doubtful.

The doctor doesn't need to know about climbing, but but they should know about the potential risk to the foetus from falls and impacts. The climber can then judge for herself how likely it is that she might fall in a way which might result in injury, and mitigate that by climbing well within her limit and avoiding situations where she might hit a hold if she were nevertheless to fall.  Tom's advice to avoid everything but low-level traversing seems to be based on an assumption that the slightest impact presents a risk and must be avoided at all costs, and fails to take into account the climber's ability, or the mental and physical benefits from the activity, 

> You're not going to find someone who's an expert in fetus health, sport activities, climbing and a UKC member. Well you might, but it's really unlikely. The article in question didn't provide answers to all these concerns, that's why there's a discussion.

But this isn't a discussion about the question of climbing when pregnant in any meaningful sense, it's mostly just an exchange of equally uninformed opinions which can't shed any useful light on the topic. The discussion is over whether someone (especially a man) should publicly criticise a woman's choices on the strength of his uninformed opinion over that of an expert climber, who is probably better able than most to judge what her body is capable of, and of the specialist medical advice she is taking.

 Iamgregp 20 May 2022
In reply to Nick Brown - UKC:

Funnily enough the last time my partner logged on to this forum was when she first got pregnant and was looking for a second hand pregnancy harness.  She found a thread on here where someone either had one for sale, or was looking for one, and she found long thread of men offering up their unqualified, ill informed, crappy opinions about what, in their opinion, pregnant women should or shouldn't be doing.

Disgusted, she logged off and has never logged on again.

Thanks for your awareness of this issue, and for taking steps to remedy this situation.

 Fellover 20 May 2022
In reply to Uncle Derek:

> IMHO, you could have and should have locked this thread ASAP, there was only one way this thread was going. Any opinion counter to the articles thrust could only be construed as a personal criticism of Shauna, and if that was by a man, doubly so.

I think part of the problem is that threads basically only gather any momentum if there's something to argue about. If the original controversial post hadn't happened, there would at best have been a handful of comments saying something like "Nice one Shauna". That's basically what every thread about any hard route that gets done in an uncontroversial way looks like. This thread is broadly pretty similar to the thread about Seb Bouin's recent new 9c. One person at the start of the thread saying something like "I bet it gets downgraded by Ondra/Megos, Seb Bouin doesn't know what he's talking about", then many people who wouldn't have bothered commenting otherwise appearing to tell them that that's wrong.

So (imo) the only way this thread would ever go anywhere is if it was kicked off with an argumentative response, which as you point out could only be construed as criticism of Shauna (unless worded very carefully), which obviously will kick people up into a frenzy and result in a car crash of a thread.

I asked a legitimate pregnancy and exercise related question quite a long way up thread now, which has received a couple of helpful and interesting responses (thanks Monty and Tizzy), but has since been buried under a mountain of shouting about the first post. As far as I can tell they're pretty much the only posts that aren't just argument about the first post (I probably missed some others), 3/100's isn't amazing. People are much more interested in arguing about the rights/wrongs of free speech/echo chambers/old men/being supportive/being unsupportive etc. than in discussing the topic in a relatively uncontroversial way. (Edit to add: Yes, I'm as guilty as anyone of this...).

> The comment about an Unborn Baby being a Parasite is from my perspective one of the most grossly offensive things I have ever seen posted on UKC, but it seems that other people have a different perspective.

Yes for me that comment was worse than anything else on this thread. However, most people don't seem to think so!

Post edited at 13:33
 stubbed 20 May 2022
In reply to Iamgregp:

Just in case anyone else is getting pregnant and is thinking about continuing to climb, from experience I have a couple of points to contribute:

1. I climbed with a friend until she was about 6 months pregnant when her balance went all weird and she had to stop

2. I was far too knackered & uncomfortable during pregnancy to climb at all. Plus I didn't have a suitable harness

3. If I had been able to I would have climbed with no concern, I often climbed well within my ability anyway and don't like falling off 

I do support the the idea of continuing to exercise, after all if you climb a lot, stopping climbing suddenly is more of a risk to your health. But I wanted to say that it isn't always possible.

 montyjohn 20 May 2022
In reply to stubbed:

> I climbed with a friend until she was about 6 months pregnant when her balance went all weird and she had to stop

So my wife was absolutely fine climbing up to 40 weeks. What's funny tho' is the only thing affected was driving. She's only had two accidents, one for each pregnancy between 37 and 40 week. 

When discussing if it was a coincidence or not, she felt like like her brain was so foggy for the last three weeks of both pregnancies that she just couldn't focus.

The plan really isn't to have a third, but if we did, I'd be a little nervous about being belayed by her in those last few weeks.

Post edited at 13:51

I'm locking this thread now. 

Anyone who wants to read more on climbing while pregnant, feel free to check out this article that our regular contributor Keri Wallace wrote: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/climbing_for_two_-_pregnancy_and_climbing-8946

It's also worth checking out anything written by Beth Rodden on the subject. This is particularly interesting: http://bethrodden.com/2016/03/climbing-pregnant-medical-study-results/


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