UKC

Garden the vegetation people!  Are climbers lazier now?  Do people really think routes will magically keep themselves immaculately clean for ever, and that in the past nobody ever put any effort into route maintenance?  I remember seeing a guy ripping down the ivy just off of a block at the bottom of the crag the first time I ever went to Goblin Combe in 2001.  Sound bloke, he wasn't even climbing that day - it was a reasonable, normal and kind thing for him to do.

This is mainly an inland limestone thing, but just as a counter point to the post about Gary, what sort of state do people expect to find valley/gorge limestone trad routes in these days, immaculate or you won't go near it, versus "a good route that will improve with traffic"? 

Cheddar is a brilliant location close to my heart, but it's the worst case scenario for this - I just expect to clean trad routes on the lead, and things like Sullenberger are totally brilliant and really deserve more traffic, despite being winter only. 

But there were gert great bushes of red Valerian on the 3* Yellow Edge at Avon today - rip that shit out people, it's not rare and it shatters the rock, FFS!  Suspension bridge buttress too, is constantly under attack if not even the warm up HVS Suspense is unvegetated.  The Wye Valley always used to be pretty clean, but I ripped a shed loads of plants off of Fly Wall and Shorncliffe a few weeks ago. 

Classic HVS at Goblin Combe I'd done before?  Overgrown on the post crux jugs.  WTF?  I had to rest on my gear.  This personal failure of mine is every bit the climbing community's fault, not mine.  You all collectively owe me a replacement classic HVS tick.

Even the direct on Inkerman's groove was being lost to Ivy at Chudleigh last year.  That was our excuse for going a little off route anyway

Is it just me?

If you see it, get rid of: 

Red Valerian,

Ivy & if you're truly dedicated

Brambles

and I for one will buy you a beer.

The trouble with Cheddar is that people honeypot the sport routes these days. I'm right there with you getting rid of veg when I can... but we need more people on the Trad routes...

Yep, and on the North side, by the road too.  They often complain about the polished rock, while sitting in their cars, right under the shadow of Sunset Buttress.

Where's Noone Gardens? Can't find it on UKC

My trad rack for Avon  Cheddar and Wye Valley includes a pair of secateurs 

A pair of secateurs is a standard fixture on my rack at Wintour's Leap, to keep the brambles, ivy and other vigorous plants at bay.  The extra weight is negligible in comparison to the trials of dealing with awkward plants aux mains nues.

At nettle season, I carry a panga to lay waste to those (especially in Cheddar when the season opens).  I forgot the latter and consequently my partner and I had to beat the path through chest high nettles all the way to Castles in the Sand (do I mean that? - the long 6a/6b-ish sport route at the end of that long terrace).  That was a good warm-up.

Stripping ivy should be second nature to everyone -

Indeed, especially seeing as it's an invasive species which was never there before we started planting it in our gardens!

The peg on the crux of Hell Gates was well hidden in some dandelions the other day. My partner totally missed it. The route was pretty overgrown in general and we did give it a bit of a clean.

I am sometimes not sure what is safe to clean and what is a rare plant, particularly in the gorge. Need to get better at botany.

While clearing the vegetation that prevents access to superb cliffs like Beeston Tor (completely be-jungled) is there some remedy for polish?

On my last visit to Chudleigh I couldn't even start the classic V Diff : I slid off the stance at the foot of the first pitch.

Yes. Landed on my bum on same one with the non-PC name about 40 years ago but then did it with a bit more care. It probably hasn't got any worse since then and is part of its characacter. I think there's been at least one thread about polish in the past year but it would probably be unacceptable to rough it up in revenge.

I think you're wrong. (See e.g https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/visiting-woods/trees-woods-and-wildlife/pl...)

Are you claiming that ivy at Cheddar 'was never there before we started planting it in our gardens'? If so, on what grounds do you make the claim?

Maybe not not there at all but certainly not as prolific. Take a look at this picture from 1873.

https://www.francisfrith.com/cheddar/cheddar-gorge-high-rock-c1873_6984

The area on the left is the burma buttress, which if you know it is covered on the top half almost entirely by ivy. In the middle is what used to be Mourning Glory, which is pretty much entirely covered now. You get the gist. It's difficult to twell what sort of vegitation is on the ledges, but it to my eye does not have the characteristics of ivy, dripping down vertical walls. Trees have proliferated as well, and to my mind, the landscape of the gorge has chnged significantly. Whether the ivy has come from gardens or not is to be honest irrelevant, but as you can see from the picture, it wasn't really there 150 years ago...

Here's an excert from the 2004 CC guidebook (now consigned by most to the dustbin), page 11 on notes about vegitation:

"Climbers have been fighting a losing battle with ivy growth and vegitation for decades. It is almost inconceivable that in 1931, Marples and Bates had no such problems when pioneering Knights climb in a cleaner and tranquil Cheddar Gorge. In those days, the Gorge was less vegitated, as evidenced by early photographs. With time, however, an invasive stain of ivy took root and by the late 60's had spread remorselessly across the Gorge's pristine white sheets of limestone, fracturing the rock surface, levering away previously stable formations and precluding the growth of rare wild flowers and other more valuable plants. Then along came the climber. Systamatically the ivy frontier was pushed back to reveal magnificent new lines of great acclaim. But with fears for public safety, climbing was soon outlawed - and the ivy came back. Despite flushes of climbing activity during the 70's and 80's the cycle of revegitation was at best a tentative equilibrium; one bad winter, or one piece of bad press that turned climbers away could make all the difference. Great sheets of ivy that had been cleared would often rematerialize two or three years later, coverin up climbs as if they had never existed.

At long last during the 80s, prompted by public and employer liability concerns because of the risk of loose rock falling into the road or car parks, th landowners, Cheddar Caves and the National Trust, embarked on a massive and costly loose rock, scrub and ivy clearance programme that was to last rigth across the 90s. It is still continuing. At the turn of the Millenium we have a completely different looking gorge. Last of all the Pinnacle Bay [a glorious place to climb by the way... Sullenburger, Stone cold Fever, the routes on long wall - all amazing routes] has been cleaned and its fantastic serrated arc is now unmasked of foliage. Throughout, most large loose blocks and unstable rock formations have been jettisoned to the base of the gorge and carted away, and there are unobtrusive runs of rock catch fences below many cliffs. Behind the fences and roaming the most inaccessible parts of the gorge is the landowner's secret weapon: the Soay sheep. Tactically introduced as the key to the conservation masterplan (but with added value to the tourism plan) these goat like beasts spend their days not only posing for photographs but munching religiously away at ivy and scrub that otherwise infects the gorgs splendid calcareous upland botany."

The problem is significant and it is noticable that whilst there are climbers all over the sport crags at the base of the gorge and the few multipitch sport routes above, the trad climbing is largely left alone bar the obvious routes like Corenation street. To my mind it's very sad that routes like Sullenburger, Crow, Utopia amongst many others see only a handful of ascents per year as thy are really great, adventurous routes. But they lack convienence as so the potential ascentionist needs to have greater mettle and resolve than otherwise due to the swaths of ivy which hang down. Indeed once great routes like Mourning Glory (imagine a 460foot *** VS on inland limestone!), the lower pitches of Megalomania and the upper Burma wall for example are completely lost. That situation has gotten worse year on year, and despite the Cehddar Caves work, will continue to get worse with time, creating more loose rock and less enthusiasm from climbers who could be part of the cure...

Common Ivy (Hedra helix) is native to the British isles having re-colonised after the last ice age. It is probable that ivy was kept away from the cliffs in the past by human activity as this snippet from the Spectator in 1909 suggests - "Some of us in Bristol as we watch the solemn grandeur of our beautiful Gorge being quickly and noisily taken away under our very eyes have much sympathy with the steady support you are giving in your columns to the National Trust in its attempt to save Cheddar from the hand of the quarry- man"

Heres the same butress from the late 1800's until nowish...

https://www.francisfrith.com/cheddar/cheddar-horse-shoe-bend-c1890_2852p

https://www.francisfrith.com/cheddar/cheddar-gorge-the-horse-shoe-bend-c193...

https://www.francisfrith.com/cheddar/cheddar-gorge-c1960_c71169

https://photos.app.goo.gl/FIs3oypjfITFenZj1

Eh? That talks about saving the gorge from being quarried, not about the growth of ivy.

Even Stanage needs gardening.I just love the smell of napalm  on grit!

Think it through. Ivy doesn't grow where quarrying is taking place. Once established ivy grows quickly but my grandfather who owned a quarry would periodically clear vegetation, even from areas he wasn't working, so that if he came to want to work a particular area he didn't have to contend with a mass of vegetation

I just looked up red valerian. I didn't know it by name but recognised it as the plant that grows in almost everyone's garden wall on my street (not mine) and is slowly prising them apart.

I still don't follow. Are you suggesting that despite the lack of quarrying activity on the main faces of cheddar that people would come and clean it off just incase there was? I've got to be honest, that doesn't sound that likely.

Quarrying is only one aspect of human activity. In the past cattle including sheep and goats were grazed there. Infact goats have been recently re-introduced to help. People would also have taken wood and scrub for various other purposes.

As you old pictures clearly show. It isn't just ivy that is absent but a whole range of trees and scrub. Something would have cleared them away

I am talking about actually on the cliffs themselves - places where goats don't go. Yes goats have been introduced to help, but the ivy is still spreading despite this and the efforts of the cliff management team. There's only so much a team can do during limited descaling operations maybe once a year. And these descaling operations did not happen BEFORE cheddar caves took the place over. So how do you explain the cliffs being free from ivy in the 1890's-1950's?

I don't know about Cheddar which seems to have specific problems but in general terms the more traffic a route gets the cleaner it gets. So it's not down to one party of climbers but more about the number of ascents. This means earlier in the year routes tend to be dirtier and more vegetated but later they're significantly cleaner.

This year we seem to have a particularly long cold and wet winter which might have something to do with the state of things at the moment.

The Cornice in Cheedale is a classic example of the problem. The season is particularly short as it takes such a long time to dry out. (Some years it doesn't dry out at all). At the start of the season the routes are all minging and dirty but by the end the popular routes are perfectly clean as they've usually had dozens of ascents by then.

U must mean Space Tourist up Sunsets. Castles is out when Nettles are in... But there are no big nettles under Space  Tourists, just little ones that give a pleasant sting, so phaps u went to Castles when it was naughty to?

Good post and extra marks for use of "gert".

I still blame goats which would eat any ivy around the crags before it even got up high. Goats can climb seriously high.

To turn this around how do you explain the lack of vegetation such as ivy which has been in Britain for approximately 11,000 years, plus native trees and other scrub?

I remember when Gordon cleaned a humble little sport crag at Cheddar 10 years ago.  Within minutes of us being out of the way the goats (or Soway Sheep, or mutant Sheep/goats, whatever) were in there eating the Ivy.  They love it!  Credit where credit's due, that one's still clean.

There are anecdotes in the older climbers' biographies about how clean the Roaches used to be when the air in the north was full of industrial fumes, back when you were grateful when children had 2 eyes each and exactly 5 appendages per limb

Ok so ivy has been around for a long time but it's not everywhere is it. Why is it hard to imagine that cheddar was not choked with ivy before people started planting ivy in their garden which in turn seeded it self to nearby cliffs? It's not that crazy an idea. Ivy grows in cracks just as well as it does from the ground or from inaccessible ledges. And sure Soays are great climbers. But there are still places they don't go. So surely those places would have been islands of ivy... But seemingly they weren't. That scrub was cleared from accessible ledges? Fine... But it's the vertical areas that are odd don't you think?

That might depend on precisely when he did it. Although first climbed in 2006, Castles wasn't designated [in print] as "winter only" until the 2009 guidebook; its inclusion in the 2006 edition suggested that it fell within the "summer access" regime. To be honest I can't recall exactly when the annual Cheddar Access Calendar got started.

Slightly tongue in cheek (and I never climb down that way) but I was under the impression that gardening was now discouraged generally speaking? I cut things off on the access path of my local crag and will go and clean holds of needles (canopy of conifers). I am not sure, however, that would take it upon myself to cut/rip things out. I am not entirely sure why I feel that way.

typos edited out

Well let’s examine this.

Ivy (Hedera helix) is a native British plant that grows well in conditions that are neither too dry or too wet or too acid.  It is dispersed by animals (most usually birds) eating its berries. Therefore you would think that limestone cliffs in the UK would all be ivy covered.

Accounts of ivy growth pre-industrial revolution are hard to find so we can only speculate what Cheddar would have looked like before the advent of Photography. Clearly early photos show less overall vegetation than modern ones so something has changed.

So what is different?

I agree that garden planted ivy has a part to play in the distribution of ivy but that can only be part of the story. The ivy covered cottage is certainly not a new phenomena though fashion in garden planting during the 1970’s & 80’s resulted in a taste for ground cover and this included the planting of ivy, particularly by municipal authorities. It is hard to imagine that a couple of decades splurge could out weigh centuries of distribution by birds.

It might be worth considering whether more houses have been built since the early photos were taken. Which would not only increase the potential of planted ivy but also restrict grazing by animals.

Other human activities such as quarrying, animal husbandry, and industrial pollution also undoubtedly plays a part.

1.     Quarrying – restricts grow where quarrying takes place but also the dust from quarrying has an effect on plant growth over a wider area.

2.     Animals such a sheep and goats are extremely good at keeping vegetation down. Especially goats see link http://www.allspeciesfitness.com/2015/05/the-goats-must-be-crazy.html

3.     The cutting of vegetation for firewood, fodder and other uses plays a part.

4.     The acidification of the atmosphere in the late 19th century and 20th centuries played a significant part. The reduction of lead petrol may also have helped.

5.     Use of pesticides and herbicides may have an effect on pollinators and seed distributors.

The final consideration in the spread of ivy is climate. In order to distribute over a wide area ivy has to flower and go to seed and then those seeds have to be consumed by birds. Ivy performs poorly (or did perform I haven’t looked at the latest records) in Scotland and Northern counties due to factors such as reduced temperature and sunlight. Ivy distribution is slowed by harsh winters, and dull summers not because the plant itself is intolerant of frost but because lower temperatures affect a) germination of seeds b) flower production and effects of climate on pollinators and seed dispersal animals.

In short I think many factors play a part in the increase of ivy in the gorge and it can not be reduced to a single factor.

I this means that Monbiot is no longer flavour of the month I'm all for it.

If you don't know what the species is, you should leave it alone.  But Red Valerian, Ivy and Brambles are pretty obvious. 

Great picture!  Since then, some locals have been very diligent on Wintour's over the years, and the GO wall project really transformed the bottom of the crag.

In reply to Fakey Rocks:

No. The route was Stone Cold Fever, which is next to Castles Made of Sand, which is at the end of the huge terrace in Pinnacle Bay. The terrace was covered with nettles on 1st Oct that year, which someone had to clear to get to the routes. An effort which Martin Crocker, checking insurance on the first day of the winter season described as ‘a public service’, so you may take your insinuations and shove them, wrapped tightly in nettles, dear heart. If you wish to contest the nettle season, then I’ll be pleased to participate on condition that you wear nothing more than a pair of budgie-smugglers and lead the way. 

Ah! My mistake, apologies ... Forgot that things grow bigger and bigger all year and are at there biggest at the end of summer, beginning of autumn.... nettles can be huge by then! I don't have any budgey smugglers, but we can go in undies if u like, I quite like nettle stings, happy to lead the way, without bashing them down.  Do we climb the route in just undies too? I fancy the first pitch please. 

Hydrochloric Acid is good on limestone, it just leaves a powder that can be blown off, the hold is pristine.

Yes but it leaves a smooth surface which quickly polishes up again, it is better to cut a cross hatch pattern using a cordless angle grinder. 

Ok, you're worrying me now! 

PS having abseiled, spinning, into the nettle patch at the bottom of Kangaroo Wall wearing shorts and a T shirt, I can attest that you can have too much of a good thing.    The sensation settles down after a while to being akin to bathing in Deep Heat.  Tim Sparrow, bystander of this parish, found the incident entertaining