UKC

Just had a looked at Gripped website.They suggest using the  leader call ''secure! '' instead of ''safe'',which as we all know,sounds scarily like ''take!''

      ''Secure!'',what a good idea,but of course ,doomed to failure in the conservative u.k,where so few dare to be sensible.

I've come to the conclusion that shouting at the crag is rubbish. Either a signal (thumbs up for "safe" and "climb when ready"), or a signal with the rope is both clearer and better for everyone else.

A friend of mine had an accident due to that misunderstanding.

Clearly,I should communicate on ukc by means of tugging a rope,so much  more forceful than actual words.

At busy crags, if you are using calls, adding the belayer's name to a call of "safe" or "secure" isn't a bad idea.

I heard the classic "take in slack" a couple of times at the weekend - always good for misunderstanding potential.  

When I first started climbing, I was told to use "tight" rather than "take" for the same reason.

I prefer use of safe and tight  (and 'watch me' to increase concentration when crucial). Like Jon suggests I use a rope tug system as belt and braces if communications are at all degraded due to crowds or wind. On busy crags, with lots of lower grade stuff, shit belayers are not so rare, nor are shit belays or shit communication systems and I've seen all three together more than a few times. Its best to have a quiet word in such situations and most are greatful even if expletives are sometimes the response ( I guess some people are above danger). Yet the YOSAR analysis shows that on a high risk wall like El Cap experienced climbers mainly die due to stupid mistakes or lax attitudes to risk in less serious terrain. Stay focused and be as safe as you can.

Should we just be using 'on belay' instead? Or is it better to use 'safe' when we don't need belaying anymore, then 'on belay' when we've built a belay?

For what it's worth, Germans use 'stand'. I don't think they use an equivalent of 'safe' and 'on belay'.

"Stand" pretty much is "safe", meaning that the leader has reached the next anchor or intermediate belay, has secured himself, and is prepared to be taken off belay by the second. 

CB

"On belay" is rubbish because "belay" has two distinct meanings (attach self to an anchor, secure partner using belay device), so "on belay" might mean either "safe" or "climb when ready". 

Is that a translation of the word Germans use for our "stance".

It´s like cb294 says, it means you are secured and the belayer can take you off belay. Stand just means stand as in standing, just like English. In a guide they will write "standplatz" to show where the belay is (standing place).

It is doomed to failure because it is nearly impossible to get rid of established conventions just because they are a bit crap.  Even if everyone agrees that the status quo is rubbish it is damn near impossible to change because of network effects.

Why not take this lance and have a go at those windmills.

I find a system of tapping keys or a glass screen most effective for communicating on UKC, shouting at it ocassionally helps, but in a different way.

But if you are "safe" it shouldn't matter too much if you are "taken" should it?

Isn't this the nub of the confusion?

Why, oh why, did all the modern versions creep in? Why didn't we stick to the classic calls. Everybody knew them and used them in, and you knew what was being shouted even if you couldn't always hear, particularly on sea cliffs, by the order in which the calls were shouted.

The classic shouts were:

Leader

Climbing

Watch me here (optional)

Safe (once belay has been constructed and clipped in, never prior to that)

Taking in slack

Second

That's me

Leader

Climb when you are ready

Second (unties his/her belay)

Take in slack

That's me 

Climbing

Take in slack (optional whilst climbing if too much slack develops)

The classic calls were for trad climbing, and due to the order confusion was unlikely to occur. I appreciate that there is a different sequence when the leader arrives at a lower off point in sport climbing, and I agree "take" sounds like "safe" hence always say it in full "take in slack" never just "take".

Yes, obviously. The problem is if your partner thinks you are safe when you wanted taken.

Good point!

No. "Take in slack" is the lethal one when only the word "slack" is heard.  I once saw a top roper dropped flat on her back from 20 feet on a windy day because of this.

Stand means belay and "Seil aus" means "you are off" and "Seil ein" means take in. "Nachkommen" means "climbing". Brian and I often use the German calls for a laugh, usually using a funny German name with it as well such as "Stand, Manfred" or "Hubert" or so. A lot better than safe and take coming from Brian's mouth. It sounds exactly the same. I had a quite few times over the years where I didn't take him off as I wasn't sure, only to get him tugging wildly on the rope to get me to take him off, but better that than the other way...Usually I know what's going on from the rope (having had a twenty year climbing relationship), but there are the odd times where you can't see or hear and just wonder...

Never say 'take in slack'.

If the rope is slack, shout 'take in!' - there is no possibility for confusion there.

If you can't move or alternatively are about to be pulled off because the leader has the rope too tight, shout 'slack!' - again there shouldn't be any confusion there.

You are absolutely right. Looking at my list of calls I never say "take in slack" always "taking in" or "take in". Similarly if the rope is too tight it's "slack".

Too much overthinking when trying to write it down.

Never, ever "take in slack" or "taking in slack". "Take in" and "Slack" should be understood to be opposites so their use together is dangerously confusing since "take in" means keep it tight and "slack" means give me some rope

In my view the use of "safe" which has crept in to the simple calls routine prevalent when I "were a lad", is what's brought in ambiguity. It's unnecessary. The simplest (and therefore safest?) series of calls is as follows:

1) Leader: "Taking In" - means: I'm at the stance and belayed so you can take the rope out of your belay device allowing me to pull up rope in order that you can climb. 

2) Second: "That's me" - means: that's me (!)

3) Leader: "Climb when you're ready" - means: I've double checked everything, now you double check everything and tell me when you're happy.

4) Second: "Climbing" -  means: I'm happy with everything and ready.

5) Leader: "OK" - means: get cracking then.

That's it. 5 calls for a total of ten words. As unambiguous as it can be and cuts out a load of useless, annoying and potentially dangerous verbiage.

There's an easy solution to that... Keep climbing until you fall or reach the top and you'll never need to use "take" in any way shape or form

I think it's helpful to have something before 'taking in' to signal unambigously that they can take you off belay. You can't take in until they've taken you off anyway. And 'taking in' could be misheard as 'take in' if it's not clear that you're 'safe', 'secure', or whatever first. I think this particularly true at the top of crags where you're safe before you've set up anchors so there can be quite some gap before you start taking in.

I've never seen the point of "taking in as a call".  Its totally self evident because the rope is being taken in.

Good point. I suppose if the second is on the ground, not yet tied in and looking for their shoes or eating that last half a sandwich it might be useful to stop the rope getting pulled up too far. But in most situations it does seem superfluous.

Am I the only person who finds rope tugs as communication totally pointless? Usually by a rope length there's so much drag you dont feel anything at the belay. It's like tugging on a giant elastic band and expecting someone 60 meters away to feel it. 

We tend to use the tried and tested...

'OK'

'OK'

'OK'

'OK?'

'OK'

I admire your bad rep - 14 dislikes :2 likes for pointing out an elephant in the room and suggesting a reasonable solution

Usually it takes a bad accident to change behaviour but clearly there have been some and it's not enough. If only there was some kind of climbers' representative body to get a consensus and disseminate safety advice about an easily avoidable danger

After 'safe' and 'off belay', the second has to expect that the rope is going to be taken in.  

tangent, was next to someone bringing up an anxious second recently; the second was always saying not “take”, but “hold me tighter”

I know it’s not quite the lyric but it was really hard not to sing out “Tiny Dancer” every time. 14 times on a pitch. My second agreed, so from now on we’ll shout “Elton!” for “take”

Agree rope tugs don't work quite often. The best rope signals IME are pulling the rope up far too fast to possibly be climbing for "safe", and pulling the rope tight having taken in the slack for "climb when ready". 

If you've got massive rope drag and you can't make any meaningful signals with the rope but you're within clear shouting distance, then something has gone massively wrong with your ropework!

Use names. Who’s your belayer? In my case “Kirsty” sounds different to “Joe” sounds different to “Herbert”. Admittedly I don’t climb at seriously busy crags but the only barriers to verbal communication (wind, or out of sight etc) are overcome by pre-agreed tugs. I’ve never had the problem of a belayer or leader I was belaying confusing communication with other teams. 

The following were are usual calls.

get up it you fat tw*t

FFS I haven't brought  headtorch / alt. the pub is shutting soon

you lanky bast*rd

Such fancies are great ideas, until in Cockney terms it all goes very Elton

If out of ear shot. My system is the belayer just keeps paying out slack (regardless of how fast the rope is paying out) till their knot is very close to the belay plate. The lead climber as soon as they build the belay starts belaying the second up (regardless of how much slack rope they belay first) That way both climbers know they are on belay the whole time and the second can just start climbing once the rope comes tight. It takes more time and faff to belay the whole rope length, but saves time shouting yourself hoarse into the wind

You know where you are with a good tug don't you?

Always a danger of getting pulled off, though.

Since climbing is such an achingly middle class sport these days, especially at busy gritstone edges, I find just adding copious fcuks and cnuts to every call does a very good job of separating my calls out from others at the crag.

Fcuking safe

Climb when you're ready cnut

etc. etc.

When abroad, doing multi pitch, you can tell from a distance when other Brits are about. All the endless F,ing shouting.

To be fair, it has been proven that this is the only way a chap can make ones selves understood by Johnny foreigner.

The problem here seems to be the mixing of trad and sports climbing calls.  There is usually no need to call "Safe" when sports climbing as you'll usually lower straight down, whereas "Take" usually means "Hold me while I hang off the gear for a rest" and is frequently heard when a route is being worked.   "Safe" when sports climbing has resulted in accidents when a belayer has interpreted it as a signal that they can take the climber off belay.

 "Take in" has a different meaning from "Take" and is a request to remove slack from the system, and is more likely to be used when trad climbing.

Resting on the gear when trad climbing used to be frowned upon but now seems to be commonplace, but with the adoption of sports climbing habits comes a danger of the calls being confused.